FUTURE_OF_GM

'Cept that rebates have been down at all of the Big 3, especially GM, and up at Toyota and Nissan for the better part of 2 years now. 'Cept for GM has won the Harbour report more times than I can count in the same number of years. 1 word: VEBA 'Cept for both Ford and GM have stabilized retail market share for 1-2 years now. I do agree that cutting is not the way to achieve prosperity. Actually, the number of customers that refuse to buy domestic has dropped significantly in the past 2 years while at the same time the number of buyers that will not shop an import has increased. They're already creating them...

That's pretty cool!

I challenge any of you to cirrhosis of the liver. FOG <--- Chugs solo cups full of Tequila straight (No lime, no salt) (Feel free to check my myspace for pics of proof )

And on that note, I just bought a 1 lbs hamburger! I'll be eating more meat from now on.

The GP and Torrent. The G6 needs to move to Alpha, the G8 needs to be marketed to hell and back, The Solstice needs to add a Targa, a new face and then a new platform in that order and the G5 and Vibe need to be redsigned to be more than clones of volume divisions.

I agree. But a lot of that is because up until now, GM has not given us anything to get excited about. And just when that stuff gets here, GM takes it away for no reason. There is absolutely no reason to all out abandon Zeta and waste money like GM has (On the N* replacement and Zeta) Depends... Can you market that Zeta Park Avenue to 20 somethings like me that care about performance and brand image? I don't think so... Sure, some of you might deny the fact that Pontiac appeals to the youth (it does, I only hope GM knows how much and how valuable the division is in this respect) but I bet you won't deny that it appeals to the youth more than Buick. Would said Park Avenue serve the same purpose as the G8? Absolutley not. It'd be a boulevard cruiser that is more concerned about luxury and added weight than running at the track. And don't sit there and tell me that Buick could make it sporty because there's a car by the name of CTS and a division by the name of Cadillac that won't allow that to happen. Will I be able to buy that Park Avenue at the same price point as a G8 Heck no! And therein lies the point and subsequently the problem with Pontiac in general. GM CANNOT MAKE THE RETURN ON PONTIAC THAT IT CAN MAKE ON BUICK It's not about how many cars Buick or Pontiac sells. If GM wants volume, they'll send the project through their volume division (Chevrolet) Therefore, it's all about profit, and Buick with it's 'luxury connotation' can sell essentially the same project for more $$$ than Pontiac with it's 'sports connotation' Therefore, a Park Avenue would automatically be more expensive than a comparitive G8, or GM wouldn't do the program in the first place. Will Buick potray the kind of image for the corporation that Pontiac was supposed to portray? GM would be the *ONLY* large manufacturer with a division solely dedicted to performance. It's a niche that hasn't even been touched yet by an affordable division (a.k.a someone other than BMW or Alfa) The ONLY other company that has the potential to do something like this would be Ford with their Mercury division. But who's to say Ford won't be bankrupt in 3 years? Pontiac has been badly mismanaged for a long time, but if GM were to take some time to rehab the division, the possibilities would be endless. And if GM was hinging the revival of Pontiac SOLELY on the Zeta cars, then their leadership is just as ignorant as the brand managers of yore. Sure, the Zetas will sell to people like us (People who GM doesn't even need to convince to walk through their showrooms) and maybe some BMW/Dodge humpers who are open minded enough to give us a chance. But in order to REALLY revive Pontiac, it's going to take more. And all of those possibilites are *STILL* on the table. A G6 from Alpha, a new rally-esque G5 from Delta II, a buff Solstice from Kappa II, an Alpha and Delta II wagon line. The platforms are already being built, why not sign Pontiac on to the programs? I'll tell you why: POLITICS The same bull&#036;h&#33; that will eventually destroy the company division by division. You get what you give.... The VERY same thing was being said about Buick not even 1 year ago. Now, GM GAVE the division relevant product (for once in the past 10 years) and it was the HOTTEST vehicle on the market for most of the year. It has done imeasurable good for the image of the division and made it relevant again. Riddle me this: How do you think Pontiac would be doing now if GM had given them the entire Saturn portfolio? They'd probably be selling A LOT better than Saturn! But, yet again, GM's politics forced their hand. (Saturn's dealer network makes it exceedingly hard to phase the division out) This is where the great divide of stupidity is at GM: They think a division can survive and sell on it's name peddling products that are virtual sh*t for years on end... Then the board can't seem to figure out why 'division XXX' is in decline and not attracting buyers as fast as they leave. It's the easiest thing in the world to understand unless you work for GM. Nope, because it wouldn't be focused enough... Buick would see added luxury and price. Chevrolet would be decontented and built for volume. 1) The "Caddy V6" is a corporate powertrain and 2) Buick thrives because of China, I highly doubt your coupe would be built here. So you're willing to phase out the sales of an entire division for a platform that hasn't even been greenlighted yet? ** I'm not trying to pick on you specifically, I'm just using your post to highlight some of my thoughts for those from GM that are hopefully paying attention. **

Meh... Works for america, since apparently Holden was the means for Pontiac's survival (Since the division isn't a full line anymore) All I'm asking for is an effort... GM should not just abandon the V8 because Congress scared them into it. As far as the RWD argument, I'm right there beside you on that.

I disagree... I think buyers of the current XLR do cross shop the Corvette. Now, if the XLR were what it was intended to be, then I think your statement would be 100% correct.

I agree to an extent... The XLR does not have the substance to be postioned as a Cadillac halo. IMO, the Escalade serves as more of a halo for the division. I think the XLR suffered a lot because of the Corvette. Chevrolet had a cow just because Cadillac wanted to share the platform, I'm positive they made sure that the XLR would not up stage the Corvette in any way. I also think the XLR had such limited exposure that a lot of people don't even know it exists. Heck, I'm an enthusiast and sometimes I 'forget' about it even being a part of the Cadillac line up. IMO, the V-Series XLR should be THE XLR for the base XLR price. I know that's probably impossible, but that's the kind of hardball Cadillac and GM are going to have to play to establish the car in it's intended market. It's a whole new ball game with a whole new level of sophistication. This XLR was a competitive try, but it didn't hit the mark. Generation II is going to have to do a better job or the entire effort will be chalked up as a failure IMO.

I really like the blue one... I've always been a fan of the HHR, and I'm really warming up to the SS. I could see myself seriously considering this is I wanted a small car.

It wouldn't surprise me... I mean, after all, Nascar is filled with these 'coincidences' all of the time anyway Toyota will dominate Nascar soon enough (from buying their way to success -- just like in the market) and that will be one more bastion of the Detroit 3 that will be ridiculed and destroyed. But, then again, look at the 'new audience' of Nascar... It's not like those people give a damn about the Detroit 3 anyway. When the race is on here in Charlotte, I can't tell you how many P.O.S. asian mobiles I see with 'good 'ole boy' racing decals on them. It's a rather saddening contrast to the literal fields of domestic cars that populated the lots in the 90's when I was big into the sport. (Before it got lame)

:rotflmao: Welcome to north AMERICA!

So, we can't try to innovate? We're just supposed to give up for "the greater good of everyone else?" It's just more of the same; we the people are being asked to sacrifice a little bit more of our freedom for some stupid money/political fueled hysteria. What will they ask us to give up tomorrow; control of our heating systems? Oh.. wait... I say f8ck "the greater good of everyone else" I don't really care if your kids have oil or clean air, just as I don't care that the rest of the world isn't yet on par with the U.S. Reality = survival of the fittest and I am (we are) the fittest. You can call wanting to own a V8 close minded if you want, but keep in mind that I never said I wanted anything besides the freedom to choose a V8 in my car. I'm not trying to force my powertrain of choice/ political agenda on others. Funny you should say that... Since Oldsmobile had the most competitive products GM ever offered at the time they were phased out. Seems they were keeping up with the times MUCH better than any other GM division, yet they got the ax. My point is; GM needs to not let politics and ignorance dictate the state of their business as they seem to once again be doing.

I thought you were on the side of Pontiac... And Zeta. Why the sudden change of heart? And, as for Chevrolet getting Alpha, that's the dumbest idea GM has had since they hired Zarella. Alpha is PERFECT for Pontiac and the division could be saved if GM wanted to save it. Oh well, ignorance is bliss and we all knew a purposeful, healthy GM would not last for long. One step forward, three steps back... Lets just hope GM's grave is but 2 steps back this time so we can end this disgrace for good.

I was sitting here thinking that to myself... Technically, GM only has 4 divisions now; Chevrolet, Saturn, Cadillac/Saab/Hummer and Pontiac/Buick/GMC. To further muddy the waters Saturn is, for all intents and purposes, Opel and Buick/Pontiac is, for all intents and purposes, Holden. GM is doing the right thing. As for the Lambdas... I don't really think 4 is too many. I think the performance of the Outlook played into the decision on the Traverse. The Outlook is essentially a niche entry (like the Enclave was supposed to be) and the Chevrolet was brought in to "pay the bills" for development. I'm sure Chevrolet was pressing for a version anyway, especially since the Trailblazer appears to be DOA. I don't think the Traverse will affect Acadia or Enclave sales. But unfortunately it might 'finish off' the Outlook unless GM can either 1) get creative or 2) realizes that the Outlook sells to a clientele that would never consider a Traverse.

You guys are genius.... Why don't we just make one motor (The 3.6) and put it in everything... Way to go team! Has GME infiltrated the board or something? Because said Corvette did exactly what Northie suggested the XLR do. It WAY over delivered for A LOT less. The Corvette has over 50 years of prestige, but do you actually think the clientele would buy a C6 ZR1 with the same price as it's intended competition? Since when; and why, does the XLR have to be about volume?

Buzz should save his breath because nobody gives a sh*t; least of all the politicians. The domestic industry has no money so politicians couldn't care less. As for the consumer... I can't even keep a straight face when I think about how much they actually care.

How old are you again? Like 50 or something?

In a fragmenting market like the U.S. Absolutely! More brands gives GM the opportunity to cater more specifically to the clientele. And that's where the strength lies if GM can EVER get the divisions focused correctly. At Toyota, the client buys an appliance so generic that it appeals to millions. At GM, the customer should be able to choose a more specific product that BETTER fits his/her needs. If you want luxury, go to Buick. If you want exclusive luxury, go to Cadillac. If you want performance over function, go to Pontiac. If you want a classy truck, go to GMC. If you want an off road machine, go to Hummer... etc, etc. The problem is; focusing the divisions correctly and funneling the right product to them is going to take a while. And I'm not sure GM or 'the street' is prepared to wait that long.

People here seem to be having a hard time distinguishing the differing motivations to buy a car. (And I hope GM isn't the same way) For Suzie Homemaker, it doesn't really matter what propels her ride of choice because she buys the car for function, as an appliance. For hardcore enthusiasts people like me and Cadillac buyers, the purchase is as much about identity and image as anything else. That's why this whole "Lets downsize everything and slap in a 4 cylinder" logic will not work. It's more of a perception and marketing thing than a performance thing. Sure, it's the cool thing to be "green" now. But the cause hasn't caught on enough to sway the buying habits of people who are virtually unaffected by the consequences. (a.k.a. People who can afford gas or people who will sacrifice other things in their life to fulfill their driving needs)

True that... By the sound of things, it almost seems that GM was betting on a whole line up of Zeta cars to bring Pontiac back from the dead. I don't understand why GM thinks performance must equal Zeta. They have an excellent platform in Kappa that they could promote more to shore up Pontiac's image (Seriously, the GXP has little exposure and since the initial push, the Solstice in general has been forgotten about) The possibilities are endless... Next gen Kappa, Alpha, AWD Epsilon, Zeta in one form or another. GM management must be pretty blind if they can't look around and see the success of the EVO, WRX, Mazda 3, Civic Si (More image, I'll admit) etc.

Meh... Not bad. I'd really like to see a hot GXP version. Now if Pontiac will just market the thing decently, they could add some pretty serious volume. However, I have a feeling that both it and the G8 will be forgotten about on the marketing side. IMO, Pontiac should probably have the HHR SS and Chevrolet should probably have the Vibe (Theoretically) unless a GXP Vibe is on the way. I mean, isn't Pontiac supposed to be the excitement division?

And the weak motor is exactly one reason why the XLR has been an also ran on the sales charts. Why replace it with a weaker unit? In order to be taken seriously, the XLR needs to improve, not be cheapened and vanilla-ized. Remember; the original goal for the new Cadillac was not volume, but prestige and profit. I think GM is losing sight of that daily.

Because it is a halo car in a division for people that don't care about fuel mileage. Leave the V6 for the sedans at the bottom of the division (and by that I mean NOT the XLR and NOT the ULS) Cheapening the XLR would be a disaster. If you want a 'cheap' Cadillac fun car, use Alpha as a basis.

The event is a lot of fun, we actually have live entertainment all night. Anything from rock bands, to various DJs (Last year we even had a Techno DJ) to dance teams (Including breakdancers, which was freakin' sweet!) etc. I originally joined the cause because my GF needed help. I mean, I've had grandparents pass away from cancer, but it was either before I came along or in the early years of my life. Then I attended Relay U, which is basically a yearly leadership summit. At the summit I listened to a survivor speak of the battle she had won against cancer. That's when I knew I wanted to dedicate myself to the cause. I Relay because of the survivors! You all know how competitive I am and I think Relay presents me with a positive opportunity to put that intense competitive/stubborn energy toward something constructive.