FUTURE_OF_GM

WhyTF is everyone so "against" chrome wheels on sports cars?!?! They sure as hell look better than the gawdy black and charcoal gray $h! that adorns the majority of track cars. Owners of Corvettes have class and they like classic looks. You might find them at a local cruise night sometime with chrome wheels shining. (As opposed to a GT-R owner, who might be found at a local high school trying to entice Honda Civic owners girlfriends into the car) Anyway, if you don't like the chrome, don't get the freakin' chrome. But I don't want to hear you bitch about it either way. Especially since I'm green with envy that you get to drive the best american car ever, for free. AND NO FUN.... "GT-R: The only high performance car that doesn't require a set of balls." A.K.A. No amateurs.... Doesn't that defeat the purpose? I like my cars like I like my music; hard, fast, loud and bad ass. OMG... I'd be in heaven!

Lemme guess... You're somehow happy about your parent company basically being bankrupt?

LMFAO Only in america. Absolutely... GM declaring bankruptcy is the equivalent of them getting a clean sheet. No way in hell could Ford or Chrysler, in their inefficient pre-bankruptcy state stand a chance to compete with them. With the equity in GM's remaining post-bankrupcty brands, their technology AND their simplified cost structure, even TOYOTA would have a hard time matching their efficiency (Especially seeing the likely amount of share growth they would receive) So then, we'd be talking about a much smaller, yet more efficient Detroit and a bunch of bloated Japanese companies.

It already is an issue... I remember reading 2 articles from about a few years ago. One stated that for the first time EVER the Pentagon was having to OUTSOURCE projects for its parts to other countries simply because the US no longer had a manufacturing base that made such products. And the second said that the supposed replacement for the Black Hawk helicopter will come from another country (First time that american war machines will not be american) Of course, evok will probably come on here now and tell us all how none of this really matters and how the domestics are not relevant to our defense. (Just like he did back when we first had this discussion) To say what has already been said here a million times: A nation that cannot manufacture cannot defend itself. americans seem to blindly believe that the new global economy is one of peace and that everyone has OUR best interests at heart WHILE trying to elevate themselves to our levels. Even the biggest idiot in Texas could see that this IS NOT the case. I used to talk war with a Navy friend of mine and it was his belief that america was at war AS WE SPEAK, but people were too blind to see it. America is in ECONOMIC WAR. China has already said that they plan to displace us as the superpower and they (along with the unconscious help of other countries and us) are doing just that. Ever wonder if it's a good idea that foreign ownership of our businesses has grown SUBSTANTIALLY in recent years? Ever think it's a good idea that China holds enough of our currency to destroy the dollar if it needs to? Ever think it's a good idea that the majority of our manufacturing base AND technology that we created is now in the hands of other countries? Ever wonder if it's a good thing that our generation will be the first generation that DOES NOT enjoy a better standard of living than our parents? america is already at war... And america is losing that war by the day.

The wealth was never there in the first place. Deregulation and a lack of government oversight allowed people and corporations to basically scam their way to success. See, that's the beautiful thing about accounting and statistics. You can pretty much MAKE UP money and justify why you made it up even though it isn't there. (Thanks to market variables in REALITY, the money dries up because assets that we're justified as more valuable really aren't)

Our trade deficit says otherwise. Not really. This country produces (produced) a lot more than autos and that shift is increasing by the day. It's not Detroit's fault that they were locked out of 3 out of 5 of the largest markets on the planet for many years. Just as it's not their fault that the industry is maturing and hence slowing down. True capitalism cannot exist in a global market in which your primary competitors are socialist. Hell, TRUE capitalism hasn't existed in this country for 30+ years now (Some say that even as far back as the industrial revolution, true capitalism ceased to exist) You see the effects of TRUE CAPITALISM verses Socialism in the decline of the american manufacturing base, and especially in the automobile sector. Is capitalism better for standard of living? In it's purest form, yes. In the form it's in today, not really. Had I read further in the thread, I would have seen that you illustrated it a lot better than I did.

I noticed that part as well. This article seems like either a panic piece or wishful thinking on the part of the 'journalist' or both.

So the question then becomes: what value does the tahoe name possess that the Traverse names does not, or vice versa. Will GM choose to build the Traverse name or rename the Lambda vehicle to Tahoe in the coming years? Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a very capable, yet smaller BOF SUV spawned off of GMT700 and named either Tahoe or Blazer in the future.

My point has nothing to do with sales, because Chrysler has PLENTY of money, so sales RIGHT NOW aren't an issue. OF COURSE $4/gallon gas and a recession are going to kill the inflation in the market for large, V8 powered cars. The LX cars we're phenominal. The reason sales are in the crapper is because Chrysler FAILED to follow those cars up with anything as polarizing and desirable. Look at the recent introductions; the Compass and Patriot have "cheap poser" written all over them. The Caliber is awkward (which happens to be why I like it) the Sebring and Avenger are a joke. The supposed PT Cruiser refresh consisted of what, new headlights? The Durango is ugly, weird and doesn't posess nearly the character that the previous generation did and the Aspen has all of the virtues of the Durango, except with Chryslers '80s throwback' grille treatment. Now the Jeep Wrangler..... That design has character and as a result was a HUGE hit. My point is about marketing. Consumers increasingly ARE NOT getting the message, especially when it comes to domestics automakers and the 'name change game' that they've been playing for 10 years now. To produce a design that creates as much buzz as the LX cars initially did is a remarkable feat and qualifies as a success. Ask anyone, ANYONE you meet on the street about the Chrysler 300 and they'll 1) know what you're talking about and 2) give you a well constructed opinion of the car (good or bad -- doesn't matter) Ask anyone on the street about the Saturn Aura and you'll get either 1) a blank stare or 2) A compromised answer to the tune of "Isn't that the newest saturn model" The rapper/bling/redneck argument is weak at best... 1) That is a small minority or buyers 2) That's basically discrimination and racism. And such stereotypes can be applied to ANY car on the market. 3) If it makes such a damn difference with brand identity, then why can the Cadillac Escalade show up in every 50 cent video, yet Cadillac CTS sell to top executives and Cadillac DTS sell to traditional, old skool buyers? 4) Not to mention, it's good that it appeals to minority buyers since that is the fastest growing niche in the industry anyway. But for different reasons... They love them because of the name attached to them. I'd LOVE to be a Honda or Toyota salesman, because that has to be the easiest sell on the face of the planet. Now, I'm not saying those aren't excellent cars, because they are really good cars. But it's like comparing apples to oranges and Detroit BETTER realize that in a very quick timeframe. People buy Toyota, Honda and Nissan (sadly, it rides on the success of the other two) BY DEFAULT. People buy Hyundals and Kias BECAUSE OF THE PRICE and people buy Detroit cars BECAUSE OF EMOTIONAL APPEAL. That's why cars such as the 300, Charger, Camaro, Corvette, HHR, GTO, Escalade, Enclave, H2, Mustang, Thunderbird are such huge hits (sometimes until the niche is played out) and cars like the Cobalt, G6, Malibu, Astra, and domestic minivans have such a hard time. Is this changing, can/will it change? SURE it is as we speak but it's going to take FAR longer than the time Detroit has or it's going to take a revolutionary product to do it (Volt, anyone?) I agree 100% That's a chance you have to take with a design like the 300. If Chrysler were smart, it would've actually updated the looks of the cars a few years ago when it supposedly "refreshed" the car. But ultimately, the 300 paid off big time for Chrysler. had they followed up with equally impressive (yet harder to execute for Detroit companies) product, we wouldn't be talking about GM merging with them right now. "Over the pond" has nothing to do with america. This is a completely different environment and scenario. That's an apples to oranges comparison if I ever heard one. We ALL know that the Astra is to GME what the GMT800 trucks were to GMNA, an easy home run batted from an under handed pitch. It was TOO EASY for GME to design a successful product in that niche in that environment. I'm not saying the Astra is a bad car by any means. But it does not have the presence or significance to succeed on this continent. And the sales are showing that. This is one reason why I oppose GME designs and PCS plan to expand Saturn so much. That is a HUGE gamble that could be disaster for GMNA (and GME knows it AND likely wants it to happen, now) Ford has done excellent with some of their designs. For instance, the Flex is already eating the Traverse' lunch in the reviews based on design alone. The Fusion killed in the market and reviews (by "kill" I mean was a huge success for Ford, not in comparison to the top imports -- Rome wasn't built in a day)

See this illustrates why american cars MUST have polarizing design to succeed. Your Breeze sounds like it was just as good, if not better, than your VW. Yet, you feel better about owning the VW, right? It's all about perception. Detroit automakers must go the EXTRA MILE to entice most consumers to seriously look at their products. Detroit automakers must connect on an emotional level as opposed to a logical level. I pray that what I've said is wrong, because GME is preparing a whole slew of bland-o-generic GM products for us. But if the attractive, (or at least the Sky, Outlook and Aura are) yet bland Saturn offerings are any indication, we won't be seeing a sales surge anytime soon. The product is excellent, but the consumer refuses to look. And in the big segments, the media encourages the public NOT to look. (Remember how the Vue got slaughtered, even though it's a great product? It's no coincidence that the Vue is in one of the hottest segments right now AND it was Saturns one saving grace and hottest seller before the redesign.)

I agree... That's why, in the plan I outlined, every Pontiac was tuned by GMPD and EVERY entry level Pontiac sold would be one trim. "We are General Mistakes... err, I mean General Motors" +1 +1!!! I agree 100% And that's why it annoys me so much, GM has the means and the talent to make Pontiac what they want Pontiac to be (FWD or not, volume division or not!) Pontiac is the last bastion of old skool GM product think, and since it's supposedly the FRONT LINE to automotive enthusiasts, that makes absolutely no sense to the point that it pisses me off.

LOL. No coupe variant?

A Hemi Jeep sounds amazing!!! I also like that idea a lot.

A few comments: 1) To completely exit the SUV market is insane and just a repeat of what GM essentially did in the car market when it lost HUGE ground to the imports. I certainly hope GM isn't that stupid. I guess all that talk of "maintaining our lead in trucks" was all after all. 2) Everything that I've heard says that the Silverado, Sierra, Suburban and Yukon will survive as is (Since sales haven't really changed that much for those models) but that the Tahoe and Yukon (Where the poser market was and where sales have really died) will be either discontinued or replaced with Lambda versions. It's hard to imagine the need for the Yukon, Tahoe, Acadia AND Traverse to all exist on Lambda, so I'm sure at least 2 will be cut. 3) There will always be a need for BOF trucks and SUVs. Nissan knows it, Toyota knows it, Ford knows it, but I guess GM is ready to roll over and play dead in that market too. 4) Maybe we'll get a set of smaller, but more capable BOF SUVs from GMT700. Like it or not, people gotta tow. I guess GM has accepted defeat though. 5) Wouldn't Zeta be a better platform than Lambda for this sort of thing? I know that the V8 should be able to fit into Lambda, but still... 6) What about when battery technology becomes good enough to warrant production of these vehicles again? I guess GM plans to be caught off guard again with little to no presence in a segment that will see monumental growth?

That was the plan all along, right? Destroy our industry, then 'enslave' the consumer for the benefit of the company's OWN society. See, what most americans FAIL to realize is that NO ONE in the global economy has OUR best interests at heart. The average american seems to somehow think that these companies set up shop here and cannibalize our industry because they are "Proud to do business here" or "Proud to contribute to our 'flourishing' lifestyles" or even worse, so they can "Save the environment" But in reality, these corporations are just that: CORPORATIONS that are BASED in other societies that WANT OUR MONEY. These corporations are the most efficient money making machines to ever exist and they are successfully draining our wealth right in under our noses, ALL THE WHILE turning us against OUR moneymakers and CLOSING THEIR MARKETS so that we have NO chance to get that money back. It's so simple and so brilliant. It's like feeding a starving kid steak and stabbing him in the back with the steak knife at the same time.

That's one reason why I haven't done it yet. I'm not sure if the tats will still have relevance in, say, 50 years. My two (materialistic) loves in life are cars and heavy metal. To me, GM and MetallicA represent the pinnacle of both, so naturally they mean a lot to me and I don't think that'll ever change. The MetallicA star is a natural. Without their philosophy and music, (and the philosophy of metal in general) it's quite possible that I might've given up and self destructed during the dark times in my life. That philosophy to me means that despite how many times you get punched in the face, (I mean that in more than a literal sense) you still get right back up and fight and it's unacceptable to NOT do that until you're dead. I thought up the phoenix idea back a couple of years ago when GM ACTUALLY looked like it was going to turn itself around. The phoenix was supposed to have a double meaning. One was to symbolize the virtual death and re-birth of the greatest automaker in the world and 2 was to symbolize the re-birth of me, which relates to a series of life events. Now I'm re-thinking the GM part though.... But I've always loved the phoenix and what it represents. To me it symbolizes the will to continue fighting and the will to survive, even if you have to damn near kill yourself to do it, because you're always re-born stronger and better than you were before. (I know that might make me sound a little weird, but oh well)

I know... But still, it kind of makes me raise an eyebrow none the less... Either way, I DO NOT like the idea of a global government, especially when everyone on the globe hates us. Yet again, it seems that americans want to put the interests of AMERICA below those that do NOT have our best interests at heart

LOL.. It doesn't, but I do. Actually, in all seriousness I looked into producing my own fuel (basically moonshine) a few years ago. I even found a botany professor to help me out. But he said that I probably couldn't do it in mass quantities because the government wouldn't let me (even if I distilled it for my personal use only, the fact that I would have to buy pounds of raw sugar would raise suspicions and probably eventually lead to me HAVING to go commercial just so they can tax me) Because I didn't have deep enough pockets for a lot of materials, much less taxes, I left it at that.

Fundamental Christianity believes that the anti-christ will control everyone on earth via a global bank run by a global government. This seems to be the first step.

One arm will have one of these two on it: And the other arm will have a phoenix that I've drawn that incorporates the GM logo and all of GM's prominent North American divisions. The problem is getting the money to do it.

Nope... The Focus gets excellent gas mileage! Even better now that I rebuilt the fuel system.

Polarizing design has NOTHING to do with Chryslers problems. Their problems deal with bad/outdated over all line ups, bad quality, even worse perceived quality and not enough R&D. If anything, the polarizing design PUT THEM BACK ON THE MAP in pop culture. And any good marketing guy will tell you that's half the battle. Think of it this way: Chrysler as a division had 1 or 2 polarizing designs and a slew of bad quality, poorly executed cars. In contrast, Saturn has a WHOLE STABLE of excellent products that debuted altogether, for the most part, with forgettable designs. Who is mentioned more and talked about more in pop culture? Which division has product specific mainstream aspirational buyers (meaning NOT Mopar nuts and NOT longtime saturn/GM fans) and a HUGE aftermarket presence? Don't think that's a fair comparison? Then how about this: The current Scion xB verses the previous Scion xB. Which one has more sales and has more fans in the market/pop culture? I rest my case. And that's why Chryslers new "organic" bland designs and GM's "global generic" designs will not fare so well unless the product is a KNOCK OUT HOME RUN on the quality and ergonomics side. If I were Ford, I'd be readying some bold designs for the next few years, because they can really cash in if the product is executed right.

QUOTE (vonVeezelsnider @ Oct 26 2008, 10:45 PM) People will continue to buy what they want because hell it's their money. It's not a car that would ever be on my radar screen because it isn't a big American barge but that doesn't mean that I should slam people who buy the car they want now does it. That's really all the "green argument" does anyway. It: 1) Gives the elite another way to control the masses (Remember, only use what you need and leave the LUXURY of more energy to the elite that control you. For example: does Al Gore really practice what he preaches with his huge house, business, SUVs and planes?) *Yes, I do subscribe to the Conflict Theory of Sociology* (Hate to use wikipedia, but I can't publicly post scholarly articles) 2) Gives those that discriminate (Mostly white upper class people) a reason to discriminate against you in ANY way they want and justify it for "the greater good"

QUOTE (gm4life @ Oct 26 2008, 10:13 PM) At least I don't drive a Prius that could be confused with a person making a smug "typically" liberal statement vehicle that it is. You know there is a big difference and in daylight it is very easy to tell the difference from the front or back on a Torrent. The Bonneville has a different profile and wheels and a chrome Bonneville badge out back so you know what it is. You prolly could confuse a Prius with a tree. I am glad you have two real cars made by great American compaines. Buy American. Also the extra cost of a Prius over a Focus or Cobalt and you will have hard time ever seeing your money back. I hate people buying cars so they feel like they are saving the world... It's ok man.. Most imports can generally be confused for other imports all of the time... I mean, they're all bland, organic and awkward looking, so go figure. Except for the Pious... It looks 'extra special' awkward and sad, much like it's drivers.

QUOTE (ocnblu @ Oct 26 2008, 07:15 PM) ... or Brake Nutz. Have you seen those? They hook up to your brake lights and glow when you put your brakes on. [cartman voice] Sweet...[/cartman voice]