razoredge

Im not aware of any less reliability of the SC 38 ? In fact the SII NA hurt us plenty with the plastic intake and related gasket problems. I personally believe that at 260/280 the L32 is still class competitive for performance and it is actually a very mild tune of its true potential. Its history anyhow but should be allowed to fad away in peace.

could someone that may have had or taking the time to check out the last Aurora with such a high degree of critique tell me this. if you set the two cars side by side and compared, will the Lucerne succeed while the Aurora did not and if so why and whats better, ect. ect. ect. For some reason this has always been my concern. This is not a yet another Oldsmobile quandary but rather a concern that the Lucerne could fail and repeat history. In other words if it did not work then how can it work now ?

Steve..slams head into table 10 times, blood gushes from his forehead and all he can think is Im so sorry and concerned that no one can comprehend what I am trying to say. and the moderaters wonder why I get so agitated. just like GM I am damned if I do and damned if I dont, am I the only one that can see and evaluate the entire issues or product as a whole. Without a pile of fixation on the negitive. Incidently I was not attacking turbo but was simply talking directly to him. I dont think hes an unclear thinker by any means, on my part there is no need to stick up on his behalf. I just want some positive light or less fixation on the fact that GMs do not look, taste and feel just like everyones favorite import. I dont what to keep going round and round over this but no one is getting my point either. I really believe this "makeing excuses" and what not has been takin way to far, I do not see the clear thinking in that regard, myself.

Thanks for digging that out, I have always wondered.* The mileage is varied enough to need to be disreguarded. The 3.6 has lower final drives but that does not effect mileage so its a non issue, it does improve the performance. The 3.6 would suffer with the final drives used in SC38, but again it is a non issue as long as mileage is = we must remember CAFE rules on Monday morning. Our L67 is insanely quick for 55-80mph passes, in fact if you just put it down by the time you are past and let off you will be closer to 90. Another plus to the 3.6 compared to the L67 or L32 is it does not require high octane. Today thats 5 dollars on 17 gallons.....roughly. It is an excellent running engine..the 3.6 but with the plastic engine cover I really couldnt tell what service was going to be like. We all know service on N* is.......questionable. Depending on ones purse this is of varied importance, but this is also the greatness of the flexability of offereing the two different style of engines, to some of us. Initial cost and future costs. *is there a way to access older test results and whatnot online or does one need to have the magazines laying around ?

the 38 has nothing to do with "blue hair" what ever that is <_< There is a plant in the US that is in production building these engines, nothing more nothing less. Unless you want less engine, GM has some plants building lesser engines, and engines in other counrites, that frankly no one knows much about yet. The supercharged 38 should be there in the mean time until the transition takes place to eliminate the HP complaining. I believe the N* required premium fuel anyhow doesnt it ? If so this would not make the L32 any more negitive but certainly more affordable, I also believe all the "tooling" is lying around to put L32 in G body anyhow, as it has been used previously in G body.....the L67 that is. Telescoping wheel is nice and for the few dollars production costs it could easily be standard Nav for those that need it, but isnt GM offering Onstar which while not the same is something - positive ? For the headlights, I feel DOT should get after this trend and stop it in its tracks, they are blinding at night and defeat the origional purpose of having low beams in the first place. That would level that playing field right there and it would no longer be an issue. Most of the buzz i have heard about these ultra brights seems to be a "trick" gimmick like "wings" and 4-5" exhaust tips. Sure I bet you can see better but oncomming traffic can see nothing. Im not sure if this is a pending issue with DOT but I sure have heard many many complaints about it, so maybe they are looking into it ? The really great thing is we know in the future, every year this car will be improving in many areas that seem to be a concern at this time. So in its current state it is still an awsome car with more bright spots in the future. "Dont worry, be happy"

Thats your opinion Turbo and your opinion has been that GM have never had anything decent or "groundbreaking".........your opinion.......it shows up in every topic on this board, never ending. And you state your opinion strongly and insistantly as it is fact and should be the opinion of everyone on here and let me say I believe you are doing a great job at turning everyone off to GM Much has been done by many to dispute your claims, evidence, other personal opinions, some legitimate prove, yet every topic must be continously bombarded.....it has taken all the enjoyment away. I have tried in every concievable way to get you or others to just let some air in around here and find some good, or something positive for a change but as was evidenced in your reply you are going to continue to conduct the tone of every topic into negitivity toward GM, its something that really makes no sense to me whatsoever, that is why I have asked the question I have asked so many time, becasue none of it makes any sense to me. When I have a job that sucks, I eventually find someplace else to focus my ambitions. I dont continue to show up everyday to tell everyone this job sucks or this employer sucks. There is not a single other car out there in its segment I would choose over that Lacrosse unless it were a Grand Prix and that is not "blind" bias, the Maxima or Ultima or whatever it is is ugly to me, the Toyota is handsome but so very typical and common, the other Toyota is a freaky looking piece of sheetmetal, but yet all you know is the Lacrosse sucks, even though it has much going for it. You are not gaining anything anything around here with all the complaining, your not soley turning GM and steering GM, they are working on it and it takes time. In the mean time this horrible attitude shadows every thread and apparently you feel that is your job for the next 2 or more years, until you see the next batch of worthless Gm products at which time you will begin another list. Keep at it and soon enough you will convince any here that have considered the Lacrosse or find good in the Lacrosse to forget about it. Ill just sit and watch you do it, Ill guarantee buy the end of this thread you will have more people seeing the world through Nissan, Toyota, Honda, and Lexus eyes and they will never look at a Buick again. Theres a decent Lucerne thread going, Im sure many could go there and throw some water on that fire. I give up, the mood surrounding every GM model must be one of high suckage factor and frankly it has made this a horrible experience.

Well thats all together good news, in so many ways. At last, a little bright spot.

For the sake of my "life" I would like to open this post saying this is all in mild sincere tone and attitude. So here goes..... Exactly, enough is enough. We all know what is comming in the future. As all of us with " objective, working knowledge of the auto industry" and those of us without know, plans have been made to shut down the plant, the announcement was made along time ago, In the meantime with our "objective, working knowledge of the auto industry"we know we have a plant at full production in the USA building these last run of engines for our cars, thats the way it is. So I just dont see any reason to just continue harping on about it or cruising threads looking for a chance to throw some extra dirt on things that just cant be changed. As we have seen there are many with my opinion on the engine as well, and more could be rounded up but Im not that kind of person and that too would prove to accomplish nothing. I just would like some of this stuff left alone so we could have some form of peace around here. There are those of us that do drive, buy, own, enjoy these cars and you are directly insulting us and our tastes. There are also those that until reading some posts around here may have been willing to buy one of these new or used cars powered by this engine, but hell you all have almost convinced me to ship mine off to the junk yard. Just think about it, think about some of the oh so negitive posts made, some of the greatest anti GM propaganda exists right on this site. Some of the best Lexus, Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubichi, Honda commercials exist right on this site. I dont have a blind eye or what ever number of terms have been used, I just know better than to poke around under the carpet to find every little tid bit of dust to drag GM down by, it serves no positive purpose whatsoever. This has been going on in extremes for months and months. GM just released over the past 2 or 3 years a fair amount of new product and "its all no damn good". Now we know its another couple of years before what ever is next is comming to market......if GM makes it. With the handful of members here seemingly doing their best to make sure no one buys or finds anything good about any of the current product.....if that sentiment were to be extended everywhere, GM could very well not make it to the next new "batch". BUT, regardless of my opinions of the effect of all this negitive publicity right here on our very own site, just the thought of having to listen to this same harping for the next 2 or 3 years until the next "batch" does arrive has obviously left me in very stressed out sorts......and why wouldnt it ? 2 or 3 more years of complaining about the W body, 2 or 3 more years of complaining about the G body, 2 more years of complaining about the 38, 1 ? or 2 ? more years of complaining about the 4 sp ? , who knows how many more years of complaining about the 3.5&3.9, how many more years of complaining about the trunk space in the Solstice, how many more years of complaining about the rear headroom in the G6, and the list could go on but Im tired. Very tired. Absolutely nothing has met the approval of a handful of very loud or frequent (if you prefer) posters around here.......ya know what ? thats not to much "fun" either. Well this has inspired some very loud posting on my behalf and I would think that would be very understandable for those with " objective, working knowledge of the auto industry" I can only hope at this time, that in this post I have been tactful and carried the proper tone to not annoy some of the people that are annoyed with me. I also hope I have made some kind of points that might sink home to some of those that I have been taking issue with.

thanks for identifing the many tangents, that is a very good way of looking at it. There are so many tangents evolving around this "new" way of taking care of America, but the thing is they really do have to do with the topics at hand, and thats money for investment to get the products that will make these harpers stop harping. I personally would rather not get into them myself, until my fellow countrymen are insulted for being the root of all evil.

I despise the abuse of capitolism, which is what we have going on in this country currently with the "global economy" smokescreen. You have not had the carpet pulled out from under your feet, you have not had 20-30 years of your dedicated life flushed down the toilet so a handfull of already wealthy "investors" could further capitolize on cheap foreign labor. Do not throw some stupid Cuba wildcard in my face, how immature and inconsiderate. We have crappy good now and have had for the decades since "Made in japan" Made in China" Made in Malaysia" "Made in turkey" have adorned our store shelves, I have old American manufactured products here in my shop and the lasting quality baffels the mind compared to the desposable junk that is today, which I also have in my shop. No, we will fall behind because we are buying foreign goods leaving the Domestic no money for reinvestment and the working population no decent jobs to build a future for their familys. Then when there is money for reinvestment we hand millions over to our "corporate"LEADERS"" See Rick Wagners bonus's just one year ago. I am fully aware of all that as well as all that you say.....question is are you aware of all that I say ? No you only see through this tiny little window that is today, not the big picture that got us to today and beyond into the future.

More BS ! 200,000 - 300,000 is an achievement, any engine any manufacture...just another way for you to demote GM for ever having achieved anything..typical :rolleyes: Now you are basing your opinions on what Buick buyers know and want on what ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Then the rest of your "refinement' speel is just that, only very recently have they managed to reach the levels of the 3800 and their high performance engines have just finally reached the level of the premium burning L67, so we that know sit here and wonder just how much bias ignorance can you possibly have. I SAID IT BEFORE AND I WILL SAY IT AGAIN AND AGAIN UNTIL SOME OF YOU LEARN THE MEANING OF THE WORD RESPECT. LETS LEAVE THIS TOPIC ABOUT THE 3800 THE F ALONE. WE ALL KNOW WHATS COMMING IN THE FUTURE. WHY DO SO MANY HAVE TO IGNORANTLY CONTINUE TO KEEP HARPING ON AND ON ABOUT IT. ITS LIKE AN OLD MAN THAT HAS BROKE HIS BACK FOR DECADES MAKING YOU LOTS OF MONEY. HE NEVER GOT A VACATION, NEVER GOT A BONUS, NEVER GOT ANY MONEY REINVESTED IN HIS FUTURE, YET HE KEEPS GOING AND GOING, NOW HE IS COMMING UP FOR RETIREMENT AND INSTEAD OF SHOWING HIM SOME RESPECT AND LETTING HIM REST IN PEACE YOU INSIST ON BEATING AND POUNDING ON HIM WITH THE BS STICK SO HE CAN NEVER GET A BIT OF THAT RETIREMENT GLORY. THERE WAS NO REASON WHATSOEVER FOR YOU OC TO EVEN REPLY TO TRINACRIABOBS STATEMENT ABOUT "CANT ARGUEWITH" BUT YET YOU NEEDED TO, YOU JUST HAD TO, YOU JUST COULDNT RESIST DOWNING SOMETHING SOME OF US LOVE. NOW HERE COMES TURBO BACK TO JUMP IN ON THE BANDWAGON WHY ARE YOU HERE ? WHY DO YOU GUYS COME HERE ? WHY ? ITS A CONTINOUS BOMBARDMENT OF NEGITIVISM AND DEGREDATION LEAVE IT THE F ALONE ! IT IS SO FRIGGIN UNNECESSARY TO KEEP HARPING AND HARPING ON THIS TOPIC. SO HOW ABOUT GROWING UP AND SHOWING SOME DAMN RESPECT FOR THE BUICK OWNERS, DRIVERS, BUYERS AND BUICK V6 ENTHOUSIASTS ON THIS HERE GM FORUM AND BUICK TOPIC AREA ! DAMN IT ALL TO HELL !!!!!

They want to build a great most excellent Riviera they only need to simply look as far as the 66 the 95 and current styling. So lets call it modern styling with finely defined edges. No more of this bulbulous, globual pile of clay, lets do some damn carving again Hear ye hear ye, its the return of the shark

The LS engines are godly.......no one would have ever thought we could get that kind of usuable power again out of a huge PR engine that would also be so efficient. 8 out of ten times the LS powered Daytona prototypes smoke 4.5 v8 Lexus powered prototypes. Its good competition and its great to be a GM man and see GM succede in this highly competitive road race series against the worlds greatest engine manufactures. I appreaciate the work, research and knowledge everyone put in this thread, GM "rebirth" included. Many I believe including myself might be missing the proper information as to the various tunability of these high feature engines. With all this variable valve timing and valve lift and duration and ignition timing and fuel delivery the perimeters of the engine control systems can be tuned to offer entirely different performance levels for the same engine. However I think GM rebirth needs to reread many posts and spend some time thinking before writting many many more paragraphs. You have almost gone entirely in a full circle and really are bordering on twilight zone material. In regards to the Toyota engine I beleive you have one post there that states use of regular gas is correct and you have another that states use of 91 or better is proper. You also still continue to disregard the post that says all cars are/were tested using 91 octane. I also wonder if Toyota is all that then why cant the design a proper knock sensor ? I also want to know why if these Toyota and other import engines require high octane they are not classified as "high performance" engines and why do they have their rateings compared to GM's low compression regular gas burning typical production engines ? That siad once again I would like to point out that GM's "high performance" V6, the always bashed SC 3800 has had numbers more impressive than these Toyota V6's for a whole decade.....so I have to ask......whats all the buzz ? and whats with all the negitivism on this GM website. I would not bring this up but it had to show its ugly face so......... into the fire Do you have any clue as to the wants and desires of American car buyers during this time period of transition since the early 70's ? Can you possibly concieve the difference in approach to the automobiel at US standards compared to Europe and Asia. It was a huge machine of both manufactureing and consumer wants that needed to be turned around. Domestic auto makers tried to be all things to all markets while anything across the waters only needed to improve what they were already doing. GM was damned when they did and damned when they didnt, just think about it. Here we needed to rethink, downsize, reclimatize, adjust...you names it. I believe its bullshit to call it complacency and ignorance, Domestics have had people on both sides pulling on their arms. I could write pages about the transition and how it was met by the mass buying American public.....thats your blind eye right there, you can not see the whole picture of how all this came to be. You simply want to blame it on " incompetence from previous years" or our American labor force. Acting like nothing decent ever came out of the American auto industry, nothing was ever spent on developement or tecnology. Bologna ! You too have a blind eye ! Theres no blind eyes here, just hope and team spirit.......I dont like your team. As for your stupid and I mean STUPID capitolistic views........ if capitolism is so frigin great.....how come we have all our airlines going bankrupt ?.......how come bankrupcy lawyers are in the most profitable business in the USA ? and how can you have a "global" capitolistic system in place in this country when clearly the economics of all other countries we are forcing our laborers to compete with live in a far cheaper and far more primitive socioty...People like you that want to turn the clocks back in the US to the days prior to the great depression make me sick.........I though we were an advanced socioty ? What is it we are so advanced at.........shooting ourselfs in the foot and not missing ? Humping foreigners and their products and economies then bitching about our declining industries, local economies and ever expanding inner city insanity ? You get back what you give for investment, you wanna invest your money and efforts into promoting foreign products and foriegn welfare, live with yourself and at the same time you better learn to live with those like me that believe in our own people and products and economies. Im so faulking sick of hearing about free economies and globalization.....I COULD JUST SCREAM !!!!!!!

Thing is 6t8, GM is like a family with 10 kids and the old man just lost his job, theres only so much soup to go around. Granted some of the children are getting double rations and Buick is skipped on every other day, but we will save the conspiracy theorys until after Buick keels over and dies.

its probably the octane gas they are burning :rolleyes: I spent quite a bit of time posting about the reality of octane. Someone posted stateing that 91 octane was used in all testing. From there the topic went into some kind of twilight zone where the reality of the purpose of octane was insignificant and ignored the fact that someone, whom I assume knows 91 octane is used in all testing. You are correct though instead of breathing down your back I should have once again began my speel about octane and pointed out the fact that someone said 91 octane was used in all tests. Now two other posters have repeated my speel about octane and its purposes. Im not in denial of anything in regards to Asian built cars, I pay absolutely no attention to them whatsoever. They are insignificant to me so I only quick glanced your posts and I also knew why you posted your references as proof. I believe my first post on this topic stated something about I wouldnt worry about a few HP, then I probably went on to degrade Toyota and I will because they are screwing up my favorite car companies, I grew up on Motorcity Madness and I want to die knowing its still there. Thats why I do it and will continue to do so. I also know nothing about mileage on CTS V or GTO or any other such equiped cars. I do know my buddy whom has a C5 has an accumulated average of 23 and his PU that has the ??? 327 ??? is also very good on gas for a fullsize but thats all I know. I know drag coefficient and weight are big factors. When I answer a question that no one asked its becasue they asked the wrong question or started running the bases from second and still then decided to skip third and just run right back straight to the plate. Perhaps I should look into electro shock theropy :lol:

We were looking at a Black Riv that had this or a similar wood kit. Myself, Im really quite a wood guy, all the way around so I like it but this kit really is alot of wood. Its a multi piece kit so it could be applied differently. Im not sure whats available for grains and tones but Harley had some good thoughts. One could always get crafty and make some of their own panels out of whatever veneer suits their fancy. You can also go to metal suppliers and purchase many types of thin sheet as well. Brush aluminum, polished aluminum, brushed stainless, polished stainless. Other thoughts This does belong on this location in this Buick section and this Buick owner and lover fully approves I did not know you could find this kind of interior in 1983

really ? why is that trinacriabob (thats quite a keyboard full :) ), the buying part ? I sure would value your rundown on a comparision including the CXS. Especially after your comments on suspension on standard Lacrosse. I would like your opinions on the engine as well. I thought it was quite nice, but didnt see it haveing anything on the L67 other than use of regular gasoline and different kind of powerband.

ho boy, we got someone who knows everything there is to know about engines...... according to the book :rolleyes: anywho - I found this interesting, its a near exact flip flop of the spec on the 1996 GM L67 3800 Supercharged V6. toot toot Toyota......your so special Avalon "it's now rated at 269 horsepower and 246 lb-ft of torque." L67 240 hp / 280 lb ft. 1995-2004 and GM clearly states that the forced induction engine does indeed require high octane fuel

oh boy ! :unsure:

My belief is that GM could easily get more power out of their engines but dont because the mileage suffers and you cant beat the CAFE regulations and win sales if your not competitive in mileage, its more important than 10 -15 hp in the eyes of the average customer. So I believe they have kept them somewhat "choked" down. This has been my experience with the 38 anyhow. origionally they had something like .37 or .42 total valve lift, Im sure this improved as they got the engines worked out so the power was up and the mileage good. This is going to be the challenge for the 3.9, to get the power and improve the milage. It seems to me back when i did some power estimates on the V6's as if they performed equal per displacement to the LS1 or 2 ( I now forget which one of them I used) they would be around 260 on the 3.8 so just a tad more for the extra 100cc on the 3.9. If you wanted 280 or 300 you would be looking at serious performance mods like high compression and cam duration that would destroy the gas milage and require the expensive gas.......all sales NO NO's. Hopefully we will be seeing a supercharged 3.9......now that could easily reach 300 and maintain equal mileage under normal driving conditions.

thanks siegen, you covered some of the obvious. I cant be bothered with someone that rates octane value according to EPA estimates and corporate publicity stunts. I surrender, all GMs suck and always have and always will. Where do I sign up for the GM sucks club ? Rough vibrating gas gussling underpowered dont like to rev engines sloppy shifting with a touch of roughness on the side transmissions, cheap plastic interiors bench seats column shifters, small wheels, harsh soft suspensions and antique chassis and body designs.............did I forget anything ? ho boy

I have no problem with the Lacrosse, the Regal/Century body was on market long enough and was a toned down Riviera in most of its styling. In some respect the Lacrosse still retains old styling but we all know the story behind it and theres just nothing that can be done. Then there is the areas that it is better than previous Regal/Century. I think the Lucerne is very nice and not as "retirement" oriented as the PA. Thing that concerns me is the 00 Aurora was same basic car and far more exciting and that did not work (supposedly, how would we know?). Perhaps the better pricing of the Lucerne will help. Im not into the SUV's but many are, so it may be a fair compromise. The 8th generation Riviera was great but sold poorly so what are you going to do. Believe it or not, the Riviera that I do not like, the 6th generation was the most successful, go figure. It would not be successful today. Roadmaster had funeral parlor writtin all over it, it too would not be successful today. Turbo & Supercharged ? Well GM has had a long history of unbelievable wrong calls. I believe this is one of them. To me the castration of Buick is appauling. Sometime and I forget the exact story but some "brass" at either GM or Buick said something along the lines of "we are not going to be a boyracer brand ever again". I think this pertained to the Turbo Regal and T type & GS lines, so its amazing what part of ones history they will be ashamed of. Myself Im ashamed of the 91/92-2000 & 2000-2004 LeSabre/Park Avenue, sensible, conservative, retirement approach. Its fine as long as thats not all you have. Still we must remind ourselfs the last 2 dr. LeSabres & PA sold very very slowly, yet almost everyone Ive ever known has high regards of the 2dr. LeSabres of 86-91. Perhaps not enough new car buyers paid attention. Much has changed drastically for GM and with downsizing of the lines and more specific market targets we have to accept how the divisions are focused and appointed. Still, however we must hope Buick gets more breakthrough styling and exciting performance as well as a extreme performance personal luxury machine named Riviera and no other Rose will do.

[quote name='enzl' date='Dec 29 2005, 10:29 PM'] [quote name='balthazar' date='Dec 29 2005, 11:15 PM'] I know exactly how Razor feels. It's not so much what is said as how it's said. Apparently, I'm hurting people's feelings, so, I suppose an apology of some sort is in order. Tone is a two-way street, but I'm willing to accept my share of blame. I'm concerned that its a viewpoint issue, to some degree, but, as its been made clear, its your site. [post="64979"][/post] [/quote] "hurting feelings" more tongue in cheek. No hurt feeling, just anger (speaking for myself only), we are not a bunch of whimpy lightweights. Its got more to do with the lack of respect. Its all about respect with me, show respect and I will, show disrespect and I will. There was no poor tone shown early in this thread. appologys are easy, but so is respect

I dont think you will find this effecting General Motors. Any GM I have had achieve their EPA's. On a side note my buddys C5 with the LS1 has so far a lifetime average of 23mpg. This will mainly effect the imports whom have been playing the American public like a finely tuned violin.