Ford Beats GM to the E-Crate Game!!!

I love this. I could see converting all kinds of ICE vehicles with this. 

33 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I love this. I could see converting all kinds of ICE vehicles with this. 

I also can see this and if Ford put's together a Connect and Cruise package like GM has been doing and has stated they will do with their electric motors so that you have a complete package of motors, controllers, wiring and battery pack, this makes converting / restoration of an older auto with a 21st century powertrain awesome.

$3900 per motor + controllers/ECUs + batteries sounds like an absurd amount of money to convert to electric. I'm just assuming everything outside of the motors is absurdly priced, because it always is. 

45 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

$3900 per motor + controllers/ECUs + batteries sounds like an absurd amount of money to convert to electric. I'm just assuming everything outside of the motors is absurdly priced, because it always is. 

Everything is absurdly priced as of late. 

Not a political post, jsut a lament. 

where's the motor pictures, all i see is pictures of a starter?  LOL

love this retro ford as a concept.

looks like the gauge cluster was replaced with a jensen cheap car stereo from walmart, and an ipad stuck on the dash (yes i know its Mac H parts).

Wish we had this emotor back in the day when we had Vegas with engines that kept needing to be rebuilt.  Dad was always rebuilding Vegas. Maybe simple electric motors for those would have been the schiz.....

4 hours ago, ccap41 said:

$3900 per motor + controllers/ECUs + batteries sounds like an absurd amount of money to convert to electric. I'm just assuming everything outside of the motors is absurdly priced, because it always is. 

Correct. And don't discount the labor for those not mechanically/electrically inclined. It's about a 50 grand total bill.

The question I have is : if you take a -say- $7500 car, and spend $50,000 converting it to electric, what's it then worth to someone else? Certainly not $57K. And... if you take a -say- $100K Jaguar E-Type, and spend $50K converting it to electric. Is that $150K car even worth $50K, considering the money most owners are looking at to convert it back to its original and valuable configuration? 

 

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Correct. And don't discount the labor for those not mechanically/electrically inclined. It's about a 50 grand total bill.

The question I have is : if you take a -say- $7500 car, and spend $50,000 converting it to electric, what's it then worth to someone else? Certainly not $57K. And... if you take a -say- $100K Jaguar E-Type, and spend $50K converting it to electric. Is that $150K car even worth $50K, considering the money most owners are looking at to convert it back to its original and valuable configuration? 

 

Lets be honest tho...

Lets say, you take that same $7500 car

https://www.autabuy.com/search/?Model=Demon&Year1=1970&Year2=1975&Make=Dodge

(This fast link shows a $3200  Dodge Demon that needs restoring along with 2 others that are restored where both cars' asking price is $39 000)

(And this fast link: https://barnfinds.com/affordable-survivor-1972-dodge-dart-swinger/     where the reader in 2017 thought that $7500 was too much asking price but the car will appreciate)  

and shoehorned a $20 000  Hellcat crate engine in it PLUS all the accesories required to run the engine like a $5 000 transmission and $2000 for the electric harness etc... 

https://www.mopar.com/en-us/shop/performance/engine-accessories.html

6.2L Supercharged Crate HEMI® Engine Kit  Part No. ¹ 77072452AD | $2,265.00 (MSRP)

Tremec Transmission and Assembly Kit  Part No. PW100003AB | $5,250.00 (MSRP)

Hellcrate 6.2L Supercharged Crate HEMI® Engine  Part No. ¹ 68303089AB | $20,215.00 (MSRP)

what's it then worth to someone else? Certainly not the amount you put into the car....regardless if its a killer internal combustion engine, right?

Therefore, its disingenuous to talk about how much a hopped up, restored car is worth because MOST of the time, the monies spent restoring cars will NEVER be recuperated.  EVEN if we ARE talking about cars that HAVE caught the public eye. Like a Jaguar E-Type or a '70 GTO or a '71 Plymouth Hemi 'Cuda or a Mustang or Camaro...  

A numbers matching Hemi 'Cuda convertible is probably worth to some rich boomer several million dollars today.   But that same numbers matching  Hemi 'Cuda to a shytty millennial is probably worth diddly squat. Unless of course that shytty millennial treats that 'Cuda like a stock commodity and buys it only to flip it to another dumb ass boomer for double  24 hours later after buying it...

But a Cuda convertible, if it was demonized with a 6.2 liter supercharged nouveau Hemi, it probably be getting just  slightly more money than it was modified for JUST because its a Barracuda. It has caught the public eye for quite some time. 

30 000 dollars for the engine and all the accessories.   Upgrades to the steering, suspension, brakes is a MUST. Add another $20 000 for that...easily!    Plus all the little things like interior upgrades and paint jobs.  Plus labour...if one does not have access to a paint shop or work garage etc...

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1971-PLYMOUTH-BARRACUDA-CUSTOM-CONVERTIBLE-249764

This convertible Barracuda was sold at $115 000...

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1971-PLYMOUTH-BARRACUDA-CUSTOM-CONVERTIBLE-248351

This modified convertible was sold for $80 000. 

Lesser cars, meaning, less mythical muscle cars that have slipped the test of time, will not be getting these prices at auction.  Ill repeat, its foolish to think that JUST because electric powertrains ARE insanely high priced  to convert and mod classics right now, that crate internal combustion engine swapping is not as insanely high priced as well and would recuperate monies thrown at restomodded classics... 

I was making a straight-up comparison of powertrain costs & the effects on value. 'Mandatory steering upgrades' (???) and paint costs are a completely separate & irrelevant issue... and BTW- they would be equal on the same vehicle. 

One can go buy a 460-HP crate Coyote from Ford for $9500 and drop it in a '70 Mustang coupe. Add the transmission, change the crossmember & driveshaft and you're on the road. $12,500, and the 445-lb motor weighs less than the original 302 that came out of it.
Value unquestionably increased.

OR.... I can spend $35,000-$50,000 and put a 281-HP Ford electric motor / controller, transformer, wiring, batteries, etc.... add 1500-lbs to the car, and be forced to re-engineer/replace steering, brakes, tires, etc due to the massive weight increase.

Again, my question: what's the value in the 2nd scenario? 

 

2 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I was making a straight-up comparison of powertrain costs & the effects on value

So was I...

Crate engines sold from OEMs ARE expensive regardless what powertrains one decides to use.  Value is usually not high...   Cars are money pits in general. Unless one buys and sells them like stocks. And when that happens, more money than brain idiots buy them sky rocketing the price of certain cars. These are the cars that have caught the eye from the regular idiots that want to buy into to look cool.   So those cars, one could go a tad crazier with the mods and some idiot will buy it.  Go mod crazy on a '67 Mustang. THAT will include EV conversion. Some moron will buy it for 500 000 dollars. Dont go crazy on a '67 Olds 442 because above a certain price point, the restorer will NEVER get back the money he put into it. 

Yeah...steering and paint jobs ARE mandatory.

If the car does dot have power steering, in today's market, it NEEDS powersteering, ESPECIALLY if one wants to sell it at a higher price...   A modern set-up is needed for comfort.  Today's buyer is used to TODAY's ride-a-bility!

But what about safety?   Is a 50 year old design, but more to it than that, could a 50 year old part handle the stress of 700 plus horses and 600 ft/lbs of torque when needed to turn quickly?  Just like the brakes... Because that Hellcat modded 1971 'Cuda will be scootin' much more quicker than it was in 1971...

Paint job?

Well....

If one wants to sell and try to get their money back from a mod build that cost over 50 thousand dollars, one better have a quality paint job on the car... Or the car will not be worth the asking price.  The FIRST thing people see on  car to buy, a RESTORED car, is the PAINT job.    They already know the car. They are asking to buy a 1971 Plymouth Cuda.  They could tell the car in question a MILE away... 

They come to the car and the FIRST thing they SEE is the PAINT.  They will KNOW its a Hellcat engine under the hood. They will KNOW its got Wilwood or Brembo Brakes. They wont see those first. They will come up to the car and see the PAINT job first...   

So yeah...you COULD say these are separate and irrelevant issues. But are they really?  Especially when we are talking about...value and getting your money back from selling a car with a crate engine under the hood?  EV or otherwise? 

Yea; they are separate & irrelevant issues.... to my example. 
You do not have to repaint a car when you are replacing the powertrain. And with the popularity of 'patina' cars, in some cases it's a strong potential for a money loser.

It's like working on your home- you have to know where & when to invest money in your location/market. You don't put a $80K kitchen in a $200K house and expect to make your house worth $280K.

20 minutes ago, balthazar said:

One can go buy a 460-HP crate Coyote from Ford for $9500 and drop it in a '70 Mustang coupe. Add the transmission, change the crossmember & driveshaft and you're on the road. $12,500, and the 445-lb motor weighs less than the original 302 that came out of it.
Value unquestionably increased.

OR.... I can spend $35,000-$50,000 and put a 281-HP Ford electric motor / controller, transformer, wiring, batteries, etc.... add 1500-lbs to the car, and be forced to re-engineer/replace steering, brakes, tires, etc due to the massive weight increase.

Again, my question: what's the value in the 2nd scenario? 

 

But you are CHANGING the dynamics...

A Coyote engine could be gotten at a junk yard on for pennies on the dollar from a wrecked Mustang.  (Well, that is more of a GM LS engine thing rather than the Coyote) 

Problem is,  EV car engines are NEW to the market.

The Hellephant crate engine is 30 000 dollars over at Mopar.

The EV engine over at Ford is akin to that Hellephant. NOT a Coyote. The Coyote 5.0 has been produced for a decade now.   Id like to say there are millions of them on the road as the Coyote was also offered in the F150.  LS GM engines...there are literally millions of them on the road and in the junk yards...

But...I could play the game.

How much is a 1966 Ford Galaxie or 1967 Fairlane worth to boomers in 2021?     

(Any year) Mercury Cougar?  

Even going to a junk yard and acquiring a Coyote, one STILL has to be careful in restoring these cars I mentioned because these cars are not valued as high as the Mustang you chose...

And yes, even with 'only' 460 HP and 420 ft/lbs of torque, brakes and suspensions NEED to be made to these cars.   Steering also...   Those old things in these cars NEED to be upgraded if we are talking about VALUE and MONIES RECUPERATED...

 Because if we are NOT going to talk about monies RECUPERATED...then who cares how much money we pour into a car build...    Value is NOT a metric when the owner doesnt care how much it costs him. The owner wants an EV Chevette, the owner wants an EV Chevette...   That is HIS problem...

14 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Yea; they are separate & irrelevant issues.... to my example. 
You do not have to repaint a car when you are replacing the powertrain. And with the popularity of 'patina' cars, in some cases it's a strong potential for a money loser.

It's like working on your home- you have to know where & when to invest money in your location/market. You don't put a $80K kitchen in a $200K house and expect to make your house worth $280K.

Well...like I said in my last post.

If the owner wants an EV Chevette, then the owner wants an EV Chevette...

But we ARE talking about value.  If you want to make a profit with an EV conversion muscle car, one better choose his muscle car wisely in order to make money off of it.  A Mustang would be that car.  A Delorean would be another.  A 1960s Hippie VW van could also be a candidate.

But...all others are money pits.

But guess what?

A 1958 Plymouth Fury with a Hellephant engine swap would ALSO be a money loser...

10 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

The EV engine over at Ford is akin to that Hellephant

The one posted here at $3900 is 281 HP

Just now, balthazar said:

The one posted here at $3900 is 281 HP

OK...so what are you sating now?    That $3900 for 1 motor @ 281HP  is not that expensive after all?

But this build requires 2 motors plus the battery pack and so forth and so forth making this build expensive. That is why we are talking about value in the first place.  The Hellephant is one expensive crate engine.  

Plus, there is one other metric that make it more akin to the Hellephant rather than the Coyote.   Production numbers.   The Hellephant is not mass produced. The EV motor from Ford is not mass produced. (Not yet at least) The Coyote is.  The Hellephant is a specialty engine. So is the EV motor from Ford as of now. It will probably be common place in the near future.  Not the Coyote. It could be found at your local junkyard. 

But lets talk about how car electric motors will be ubiquitous in the very near future and swaps into classic cars will be cheaper then as one could find these motors in the junk yard...

Teslas, Rivians, GM Ultiums, Ford Mach Es, VW ID4s, Nissan Leafs, Chevrolet Bolts...

Look, I could do a rather cheap EV conversion on this Chevette today!  No need to wait for the near future... 

Swap out parts from these two Bolts... 

Maybe I could save this Beretta instead?

Here, another Bolt to help with either the Chevette or Beretta. 

We're having 2 different conversations.

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

We're having 2 different conversations.

No we are not.

THIS is what you are saying.

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Is that $150K car even worth $50K,

You are saying that EV conversions are insanely expensive that no car will ever be worth the conversion price.

And Im saying that even with internal combustion crate engines, restored cars, some of them, most of them will NEVER be worth the restoration price. Especially if done correctly and properly...

Im also saying that in the near future, when EVs are going to be ubiquitous, like those LS engines are today in junkyards that lend themselves to tons of swaps for restorations that help with VALUE in recuperation monies from expensive restorations, so will EV motors... 

You keep bringing restoration costs into the equation (not to mention the Helliphant). I never mentioned either as part or parcel of my example.

My examples take a given, static car worth X, then asked if putting an additional $50K into a powertrain swap would make it worth that much more, or considerably less than the starting value. Forget brake upgrades, etc, etc, etc. - a million variables too many to enable a general answer.

- - - - -
I'll try one more time.

Hagerty says a #3 condition '70 Mustang coupe is worth $9200. Let's make it an even $10K, with a 4bbl 351 V8 making 300 HP.
We know for a fact that EV West in CA charges about $50K to retro-fit a vintage car into a BE. They mostly do VWs, but others, too.

So you take your existing '70 Mustang to EV West. You write a check for $50K & they make it battery-powered. What's its value now, should you decide to sell it? 

Or..... you write a check for $12K and put a brand new crate 5.0 in the '70, a 'drop-in'. What's the comparison value now?

Is a (non-Boss, non-Mach) '70 Mustang more likely to sell at $13K... or at $50K?

It's a simple question in either case... and a pertinent one to anyone writing said check.

Yes; some people do 'car things' as a labor of love, never intending to ever sell. But most DO sell at some point; I'm sure I am in a strict minority owning the same car for 35 years now.

6 minutes ago, balthazar said:

You keep bringing restoration costs

I am not using restoring costs. JUST the engine swaps...  

I include the UPGRADES because modern crate engines necessitate these upgrades MAINLY for safety. But also, most folk that want a classic car WANT their classic car to drive like a MODERN one... 

As an genuine and honest argument, you cant omit that just because you want to show me that EV swaps are expensive.

So are internal combustion crate engines in the real world. We cant just bash EV swapping in the car forum world and forget the reality of it all regarding IC crate engines and classic cars...

7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

(not to mention the Helliphant)

Yup.

You want to discriminate AGAINST EV swaps.  I get that.  If you are gonna do that, then do it with an EQUIVALENT internal combustion engine, please.   You could do awesome powered engine swaps with junked 12 year old Denalis that have the almost top dog LS engines in them.  But we arent talking about that, are we?

We could do electric motor swaps from Teslas that are junked, and we could buy those relatively cheap too. Cheaper than GM's and Ford's EV crate motors, right?

But your beef is with Ford's NEW EV crate motor and how expensive THAT is... and what value it may bring to a would be buyer.

Well, if THAT is the case, lets EVEN the playing field just a tad then. Hellephant engine it is.

If you want, we will play with Ford instead of Mopar.

Ford's 5.2liter  supercharged 'Predator' V8 is 26 000 dollars... NO transmission...

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-M52SC

17 minutes ago, balthazar said:

My examples take a given, static car worth X, then asked if putting an additional $50K into a powertrain swap would make it worth that much more, or considerably less than the starting value. Forget brake upgrades, etc, etc, etc. - a million variables too many to enable a general answer.

And the reason why you cant have a static car worth x and then putting a price on that with a swap, JUST a swap because regardless of what powertrain you use, electric or gasoline, you have to change everything else on the car to accommodate said swap for safety but for compatibility too...

Put electric motors in a car?

You need a battery. You need software. You need a kill switch.  You need to possibly fabricate stuff to house  these new things. You need to upgrade all other systems to accommodate this new technology.   All that costs money. Money that needs to be done.

But if you think that 760 HP Predator engine swaps on a lowly 289 Mustang doesnt need those same upgrades, you are being very disingenuous with me...    Especially Fords when none of their engines could be swapped as easily as GM cars could.  So swapping a 351 in a 289 car would need fab work never you mind a brand new Predator 5.2. 

28 minutes ago, balthazar said:

So you take your existing '70 Mustang to EV West. You write a check for $50K & they make it battery-powered. What's its value now, should you decide to sell it? 

I already answered you on this.

Even a Mustang, a 1970 Mustang with a Predator engine has to be done properly and correctly in order for that Mustang to be worth the restoration costs.

You think, that just an engine swap on a 1970 Mustang will get you your money back?

You think, you bought a 

30 minutes ago, balthazar said:

'70 Mustang coupe is worth $9200.

$9200 1970 Mustang, bought a Predator and installed it and its a #3 car

Quote

#3 vehicles drive and run well, but might have some incorrect parts. These vehicles are not used for daily transportation but are ready for a long tour without excuses, and the casual passerby will not find any visual flaws. "Good" is the one word description of a #3 vehicle.

 

 You think that when you cant finish the job for whatever reason, you think that you will get $35 000 (26 000 for the engine plus the cost of the car) foir the Mustang?  With a transmission from a 351 that may or may not be good for the Predator...  Car may or may not be running... 

Common Balthy...

You know and I know, that Americans whether they like the dealership experience or not, you and I know that Americans NEVER want to pay what the list price is on a car.  Americans are accustomed to haggle...

Raise the price to 40 000 dollars to fool the buyer to haggle to 35 000 and you and I know that nobody will contact the buyer on a 40 000 dollar #3 Mustang regardless if the car has a Predator engine in it or not....

Ive already explained to you why a Coyote is NOT the proper comparison to that EV motor.

At Ford...the Coyote with a transmission is sold for $18 000

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-9000-PMCA3A

Different scenario...

Cant finish the car for whatever reason.  We are in it for 28 000 dollars for a running #3 Mustang with a Coyote and a transmission.  Still tight but doable in breaking even...

I know you want to diss on EVs, but lets be honest about it. 

Put a Predator in a classic Mustang, do NOT do the proper upgrades on it and the value to your Predator engined classic Mustang falls really really flat to the modern classic car owner.

The question you also might want to be answered is:

Are there any buyers out there that actually want and value an EV converted classic car?

Well...when one is restoring a car, for personal reasons, is that person asking if there are buyers out there for a classic 1966 Fiord Galaxie XL? 

When Jay Leno restored that exact car because his dad owned one and he went all in with it, did he ask how much will it be worth to somebody else if he wanted to part ways with it? 

Or the RWD conversion job he did with his 1000HP Toronado? When he even hired GM tech advisers and engineers tom help him convert it to RWD.

Problem is, Jay Leno's cars will probably command high prices BECAUSE its Jay Leno's cars.

You and I do that, will somebody value our work and vision?

The answer is NO!     You know that! 

Nobody cares for a 1966 Galaxie that putting over 30 000 dollars into one regardless what powertrain, is losing money and 'desecrating' a 1966 Toronado turning it into a RWD car with a shytty LS engine rather than keeping it a 455 Olds Rocket is a big no no and a way to piss your money away... 

So why do you ask if an EV convert is of value to somebody in the reselling market.  Its not...its a personal thing.

When a drifter swaps an LS engine into his Nissan Sylvia, will he even be getting his money back in his drifter Nissan that he paid for?

Nope, not even that!   

Imagine that???!!!  An ICE car that relatively cheap to buy and make,  a drifter who got his Nissan at the junk yard, his LS at the junk yard, paid good money for brakes and suspension and steering  and roll bars and all the things he needs to drift his car, but he wont even HE wont get his money back because well...not that many people out there value drifting....

Do people value EV cars?

Enough of them to convert classics?

Well...EV West in CA seems to have some sort of customer base...

13 hours ago, balthazar said:

Correct. And don't discount the labor for those not mechanically/electrically inclined. It's about a 50 grand total bill.

The question I have is : if you take a -say- $7500 car, and spend $50,000 converting it to electric, what's it then worth to someone else? Certainly not $57K. And... if you take a -say- $100K Jaguar E-Type, and spend $50K converting it to electric. Is that $150K car even worth $50K, considering the money most owners are looking at to convert it back to its original and valuable configuration? 

 

That arguement works against any type of specialty vehicle construction. Dollar for Dollar, Corolla or Sonic would be your best bet. You want to play, you got to pay. 

9 hours ago, balthazar said:

You keep bringing restoration costs into the equation (not to mention the Helliphant). I never mentioned either as part or parcel of my example.

My examples take a given, static car worth X, then asked if putting an additional $50K into a powertrain swap would make it worth that much more, or considerably less than the starting value. Forget brake upgrades, etc, etc, etc. - a million variables too many to enable a general answer.

- - - - -
I'll try one more time.

Hagerty says a #3 condition '70 Mustang coupe is worth $9200. Let's make it an even $10K, with a 4bbl 351 V8 making 300 HP.
We know for a fact that EV West in CA charges about $50K to retro-fit a vintage car into a BE. They mostly do VWs, but others, too.

So you take your existing '70 Mustang to EV West. You write a check for $50K & they make it battery-powered. What's its value now, should you decide to sell it? 

Or..... you write a check for $12K and put a brand new crate 5.0 in the '70, a 'drop-in'. What's the comparison value now?

Is a (non-Boss, non-Mach) '70 Mustang more likely to sell at $13K... or at $50K?

It's a simple question in either case... and a pertinent one to anyone writing said check.

Yes; some people do 'car things' as a labor of love, never intending to ever sell. But most DO sell at some point; I'm sure I am in a strict minority owning the same car for 35 years now.

I would argue a 70 Mustang Coupes resale value, dollar for dollar, peaked in 1971. Everyone (almost) that I know in the Mustang community really likes playing with the newer stuff. A 70 Mustang Coupe is probably going to have someone (wrongfully) leaning against it at a car show while they ogle a 2013 Boss 302 or a 2020 Shelby. Or a K code 66 fastback, or 69 Mach 1. 

But you will get far more positive attention with the 2020 Shelby or the 2013 Boss 302 (at least around here) than you would with the 66 or 69. 

70 Coupe converted for electric is a personal vanity purchase for personal pleasure. 

Were you to have spent money flying on the concorde, it would have been for the experience. We don't judge people for spending big bucks on a flight that is over in 3 hours, why judge someone for spending 50 grand they will never see again on an EV conversion? Hour for hour of enjoyment, the EV conversion is much cheaper than the flight. 

11 hours ago, balthazar said:

Yea; they are separate & irrelevant issues.... to my example. 
You do not have to repaint a car when you are replacing the powertrain. And with the popularity of 'patina' cars, in some cases it's a strong potential for a money loser.

It's like working on your home- you have to know where & when to invest money in your location/market. You don't put a $80K kitchen in a $200K house and expect to make your house worth $280K.

House next to me they bought for 200k roughly before prices went up. They dumped 80K plus into changing it even though it was in pristine shape. She (owner) wanted something different. She owns a few pizza resteraunts that make a good bit of change, and can afford it. 

Just because you don't expect to make money back out doesn't mean its a bad use of money. 

Green car for you if you don't like EV conversions. This is bio friendly...

15 hours ago, balthazar said:

Correct. And don't discount the labor for those not mechanically/electrically inclined. It's about a 50 grand total bill.

The question I have is : if you take a -say- $7500 car, and spend $50,000 converting it to electric, what's it then worth to someone else? Certainly not $57K. And... if you take a -say- $100K Jaguar E-Type, and spend $50K converting it to electric. Is that $150K car even worth $50K, considering the money most owners are looking at to convert it back to its original and valuable configuration? 

 

I'm genuinely curious what all of the additional parts/batteries would cost for a setup just for a ballpark figure. 50k sounds a little high but that's also with me assuming just one $3900 motor. If you're spending that kind of cash, there will be two or three of them also adding additional controllers and batteries. I guess as I type through this, 50k doesn't sounds that far off, especially considering probably 10k-15k in labor customizing everything to fit. 

13 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

The EV motor from Ford is not mass produced.

They're in the Mach-E, I'd certainly say that is a mass produced motor. 

20 hours ago, ccap41 said:

$3900 per motor + controllers/ECUs + batteries sounds like an absurd amount of money to convert to electric. I'm just assuming everything outside of the motors is absurdly priced, because it always is. 

The pricing still is cheaper than current equal performance ICE motors and the labor to have it installed and setup.

15 hours ago, balthazar said:

Correct. And don't discount the labor for those not mechanically/electrically inclined. It's about a 50 grand total bill.

The question I have is : if you take a -say- $7500 car, and spend $50,000 converting it to electric, what's it then worth to someone else? Certainly not $57K. And... if you take a -say- $100K Jaguar E-Type, and spend $50K converting it to electric. Is that $150K car even worth $50K, considering the money most owners are looking at to convert it back to its original and valuable configuration? 

 

Same thing with ICE, take a $7,500 auto, put in a $25K ICE motor and still have to have a new wiring harness, chip and any other mechanical changes and that ICE auto will still only be worth the $57K. This is no difference than your lovely 1964 Pontiac. Still not worth the money that one puts into it. Restoration is a labor of love to those that CHOOSE to restore the auto.

I see every Friday at the local Taco Time here a ton of old auto's that have been restored and clearly they would not sell for anywhere near the money put into them for that ICE auto.

It is choices and right now going electrical is clearly cheaper in everything other than the battery pack which costs are dropping yearly on.

Right now the Controller cost for the electric motor is $253.50 per a Ford Dealership San Antonio Texas.

Ford Mustang Mach-E Engine Control Module. MODULE - ENGINE CONTROL - EEC. CHARGING & CONTROL - MJ9Z12A650A | North Park Lincoln, San Antonio TX (nplincoln.com)

Considering that this Ford F-100 was built using Mach-E GT parts, looking at the list for other parts still shows this to be a much cheaper solution than many of the V8 ICE crate motors.

Genuine 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E Parts: Electrical, Lighting, Telematics | North Park Lincoln (nplincoln.com)

10 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Yup.

You want to discriminate AGAINST EV swaps.  I get that.  If you are gonna do that, then do it with an EQUIVALENT internal combustion engine, please. 

Then he would have went with a lesser engine. 281hp motor vs 460hp engine. I'm not seeing where the electric motor from Ford should be compared to the 1000hp Hellephant. Yeah, I get where you'd want two or three electric motors in a real expensive and performance oriented build, but I'm still not exactly sure how they compare. 

You need to simplify things a little here. You're stretching to a four motor setup to compare to a Hellephant. 

5 minutes ago, David said:

The pricing still is cheaper than current equal performance ICE motors and the labor to have it installed and setup.

Do go no, please. How are you figuring the batteries and controller pricing to say they're cheaper than a comparable ICE? 

14 hours ago, balthazar said:

One can go buy a 460-HP crate Coyote from Ford for $9500 and drop it in a '70 Mustang coupe. Add the transmission, change the crossmember & driveshaft and you're on the road. $12,500, and the 445-lb motor weighs less than the original 302 that came out of it.
Value unquestionably increased.

OR.... I can spend $35,000-$50,000 and put a 281-HP Ford electric motor / controller, transformer, wiring, batteries, etc.... add 1500-lbs to the car, and be forced to re-engineer/replace steering, brakes, tires, etc due to the massive weight increase.

Again, my question: what's the value in the 2nd scenario? 

 

And your comparison is totally WRONG! There is no way that you can take a $9,500 V8 motor and drop it in that Mustang and be on the road for $12,500 Labor and other hardware needed to properly work is still boosting it up much higher than you are stating. Motor swaps like this at a licensed garage are costing much more.

Electrical Motor in AWD is $7,800 for the two motors giving you way more performance than the Coyote motor. You still need the proper wiring harness, chip, exhaust connection, transmission connections, brakes and more and the cost, labor miscellaneous cost will have you more in the $25K to $30K easily for that Coyote swap.

99% of people DO NOT do their own swaps like you. If they wanted that Coyote swap, they will go to a garage and have all the same added costs that an electric swap will cost.

16 hours ago, regfootball said:

where's the motor pictures, all i see is pictures of a starter?  LOL

love this retro ford as a concept.

looks like the gauge cluster was replaced with a jensen cheap car stereo from walmart, and an ipad stuck on the dash (yes i know its Mac H parts).

Wish we had this emotor back in the day when we had Vegas with engines that kept needing to be rebuilt.  Dad was always rebuilding Vegas. Maybe simple electric motors for those would have been the schiz.....

 

 

The two pictures posted in the story is the electric motors.

8 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Then he would have went with a lesser engine. 281hp motor vs 460hp engine. I'm not seeing where the electric motor from Ford should be compared to the 1000hp Hellephant. Yeah, I get where you'd want two or three electric motors in a real expensive and performance oriented build, but I'm still not exactly sure how they compare. 

You need to simplify things a little here. You're stretching to a four motor setup to compare to a Hellephant. 

Do go no, please. How are you figuring the batteries and controller pricing to say they're cheaper than a comparable ICE? 

Did you see where the Mach-E controller for the motors is only $253.50 cents from a Dealer in Texas. Randomly looking online, wiring, connectors, etc. are cheap. The biggest cost is going to be in the battery pack as always.

Currently at the same Texas Dealership the GT battery pack that is in this F-100 is $22,230.01

Battery & battery assemblies. High voltage.. 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E | North Park Lincoln, San Antonio TX (nplincoln.com)

Yet this same battery pack on Cheaperfordparts.com is $18,000.00

Cost are becoming on par between ICE to electric. The battery pack still being the biggest cost and those costs are coming down.

If we do a proper comparison, a single 460HP motor at $9,500 or dual motors at $7,800 with 562HP / 634 lb-ft of torque in AWD. I would take AWD over the RWD every day. Throw in the $253 controller for the motors, some wiring and yes even the $22K battery pack installed and your still competing with a 5 digit conversion price of the ICE system.

ICE might be about $10K lower than Electric, but to each their own, some will want the electric such as me over an ICE solution and as long as I hold onto my auto's, this becomes cheaper and cheaper every day.

^ This has devolved into an apples & zucchini discussion. 

Ford ‘e-crate’ motor is $3900 for just that single motor, and it’s rated at 281-HP. Somehow 1000-HP monster motors and top-line $25K crates got injected in. Like I said; 2 different conversations.

^ Exactly, I don't know how that's remotely comparable. 

If you're truly looking for a similar output to the $3900 ECrate, Ford sells the 2.3T for $6600, 310hp/350tq. 

35 minutes ago, balthazar said:

^ This has devolved into an apples & zucchini discussion. 

Ford ‘e-crate’ motor is $3900 for just that single motor, and it’s rated at 281-HP. Somehow 1000-HP monster motors and top-line $25K crates got injected in. Like I said; 2 different conversations.

Exactly why this place has been so interesting to watch for the last 16 years for me. 

common guys!!!!

@balthazar  @ccap41

you guys know very well that electric motors are at the very cutting edge of performance and technology.  
 

How in the hell does an ecoboosted 4 cylinder compare with e-motors in performance?

sure that e-motor from Ford is the same unit that powers the Mach E and is ´mass produced’  

But did you look at the performance level of that Mach E?

Those e-motors are new to the market  with tons of new tech in them.  You absoletely think Ford will be giving them away?  

You are sooooo hung up on dissing EVs that both of you are missing the point and are arguing semantics. 
 

Common guys!!!

Be real….

6 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

How in the hell does an ecoboosted 4 cylinder compare with e-motors in performance?

310hp vs 281hp

350tq vs 317tq 

21 hours ago, balthazar said:

The question I have is : if you take a -say- $7500 car, and spend $50,000 converting it to electric, what's it then worth to someone else? Certainly not $57K. And... if you take a -say- $100K Jaguar E-Type, and spend $50K converting it to electric. Is that $150K car even worth $50K, considering the money most owners are looking at to convert it back to its original and valuable configuration? 

 

 @ccap41

If you really are NOT trolling, and NOT being obtuse...

What Balthy is suggesting...

you really think this car

would be of MORE of value to somebody with an ecoboosted 4 cylinder engine under the hood???

 Like I said...

get real...

If somebody chooses to electrify an Eleanor Mustang with a Mach E powertrain...

The argument is will that car be of value to somebody else in that the original modder would recuperate his investment?

Because EV powertrains are insanely high.  (To which I agree!!!)

BUT...

Let us NOT be foolish I am saying.

You really think somebody restomodding any classic car with an ICE crate motor, you actually think that vision will be compensated back?

On certain classics...yes.

But that also depends on the whole package...

Common man!

You rreally think an ecoboosted 4 cycluinder Eleanor will be of value to somebody in where the original modder will not only clain his money back, but make a profit too?

Now...its a classic 1967 Mustang to which some idiot WILL pay huge money for regardles if it may be electrified or 4 cylinder ecoboosted. 

MAYBE...

But you actually think an ecoboosted 4 cylinder 1966 Galaxie is worth a lot of money?

More so than an electrified one with the Mach E powertrain?

You tell me...

You set me in my place and tell me modding cars are not usually money pits and losers and you tell me that a state of the art, brand new e-motor is more akin to an ecoboosted 4 cylinder as opposed to a 5.2 liter supercharged Predator.

You tell me that somebody out there will prefer to drive in an ecoboosted 1969 Mecury Cougar rather than a Predator swapped or Mach E swapped one...

But yeah...

JUST because one phoquing metric is the same as the other...all other points Ive made are invalid

GTFO!!! 

4 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

would be of MORE of value to somebody with an ecoboosted 4 cylinder engine under the hood???

No, but it's an almost even comparison to the ECrate motor, not a 1000hp Hellephant. 

7 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

You set me in my place and tell me modding cars are not usually money pits and losers and you tell me that a state of the art, brand new e-motor is more akin to an ecoboosted 4 cylinder as opposed to a 5.2 liter supercharged Predator.

Well, 

310hp vs 281hp vs 760hp

350tq vs 317tq vs 625tq

I'll let you choose which numbers are similar and which are outliers. 

^^^  That is one small insignificant factor out of many...   Dont choose to ignore the other points...       Dont troll and dont be obtuse...      You are better than that.  

Somehow a $9200 ‘70 Mustang coupe has morphed into a $100 grand Eleanor clone. 😆

12 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

^^^  That is one small insignificant factor out of many...   Dont choose to ignore the other points...       Dont troll and dont be obtuse...      You are better than that. 

How is output an insignificant factor? I'm not trying to be a dick but, seriously, when is output not considered when comparing two powertrain swaps/builds? 

5 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Somehow a $9200 ‘70 Mustang coupe has morphed into a $100 grand Eleanor clone. 😆

Dont forget with an ecoboosted 4 cylinder engine...to prove a point that a Jaguar E Type E-Motor swap is an expensive swap that is worthless, but we are trying to convince folk that maybe an ecoboosted 4 cylinder swapped Jaguar E Type, because a Hellephant one is not WOW enough, will impress folk and will clamour it  up like noboy's business...

Or an LS swapped Jaguar E Type.  Because swapping Jaguars with OEM crate ICE engines are somehow worth money and are NOT money pits JUST to discuss how e-motor swapped Jags are not... 

Because we have an unhealthy beef with electric cars...

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

How is output an insignificant factor? I'm not trying to be a dick but, seriously, when is output not considered when comparing two powertrain swaps/builds? 

Read the entire thread... 

I am not "trying to convince"; I have merely (and repeatedly) asked the question; what does an electric motor swap into a collectible car do to its value? Maybe someone has seen a sold price on such a conversion (versus an asking price).

The highest values for a given collector vehicle -condition aside- is almost always in lockstep with originality. When you pull the original powertrain, you have dented that value to some degree. EVEN IF a BE swap costed exactly the same as a current crate V8 swap to the dollar (and that's not remotely close, despite David's sandbagging attempts), what is the value of those 2 configurations ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL?

At some point, a few of these conversions will cross the block; it'll be interesting to see if a buyer or 3 stepping up morphs into a long-term & established trend... OR that the sale price consensus says otherwise and the deviation only appeals to a handful of buyers.

14 hours ago, balthazar said:

Somehow a $9200 ‘70 Mustang coupe has morphed into a $100 grand Eleanor clone. 😆

Just like really bad carpentry work.....a little putty and paint, make the old girl what she ain't. 

9 hours ago, balthazar said:

I am not "trying to convince"; I have merely (and repeatedly) asked the question; what does an electric motor swap into a collectible car do to its value? Maybe someone has seen a sold price on such a conversion (versus an asking price).

The highest values for a given collector vehicle -condition aside- is almost always in lockstep with originality. When you pull the original powertrain, you have dented that value to some degree. EVEN IF a BE swap costed exactly the same as a current crate V8 swap to the dollar (and that's not remotely close, despite David's sandbagging attempts), what is the value of those 2 configurations ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL?

At some point, a few of these conversions will cross the block; it'll be interesting to see if a buyer or 3 stepping up morphs into a long-term & established trend... OR that the sale price consensus says otherwise and the deviation only appeals to a handful of buyers.

It will be interesting. My only thought is god only knows what will happen with the classic car thing. People have been modifying fully restored Mustangs, tri fives, corvettes and the like for a long time. Putting insane amounts of money in. Just like Porn..... when it comes to fantasy....a fool and his money are soon parted. 

I never thought I would see modified or original first gen bronco's selling for the insane prices they are selling for. 

15 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Read the entire thread... 

I have. I must not have comprehended it somewhere so please tell me how output is insignificant. 

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

I have.

 Did you?  Honestly?  

Scout's honor?

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

I must not have comprehended it somewhere so please tell me how output is insignificant.

Maybe you have...  But you must have a MAJOR reading comprehension...

Did NOT say 

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

how output is insignificant. 

I said...

17 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

That is one small insignificant factor out of many..

The one post above yours REALLY explains it all... 

Try to figure it out.  Unless of course you are trolling...   If you are not trolling,  I am not your dad or mommy helping you out in school. I am not your teacher either.   You are a mid 30 year old adult.  Stop being a troll and/or take your obtuse way of looking at life and study the last post that @A Horse With No Name wrote just above yours.  An answer is right there for you.  Its screaming at you to be discovered... 

So what you're saying is you're genuinely comparing a 281hp/317tq electric motor with either a 760hp/625tq or 1000hp/950tq engine and saying they're on the same playing field? 

6 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

a fool and his money are soon parted. 

Would not even a fool prefer to lose $10K vs. $50K? 

Depending on what kind of money losing adventure the fool is embarked on.

In a Las Vegas Casino, how much money is a fool ready to lose?   Is the fool gonna go back to a bank machine to withdraw more money from his bank account after losing the initial money he went in the casino with? Probably as gambling is an addiction...

When embarked in a more personal project, like  restoration of a car, most of the time, most people get in over their heads.      10K over 50K?  What is the difference?    Other than the monetary value.   Embarking on a money losing adventure is embarking on a money losing adventure.  Like that casino I was talking about...   Its just how deep one mistakenly goes on.   Its just that losing 10K, one loses his shirt. Losing 50K, one loses his house as well.  And sometimes, fools dont see it and go down that rabbit hole anyway...   If that werent the case, then we wouldnt have that saying, right? 

 When someone has a vision for his restoration project, and has got the funds to lose...  We are talking about a dude with more money than brains here, and there are plenty of these kinds of fools, then sometimes, taking a classic whatever and pooring money into it is done without any regards to external values.  The only thing that matters (to them) is what the finished project looks like and if they achieved the their vision.  And often times, in these circumstances, the project is a money loser.

10K versus 50K

You know, one could take a junky car worth only the scrap metal it adorns, and one could restore it with the utmost caution with a very carefully plan of not going over budget, with hardware that pleases most people (LS engine swaps, no crazy paint jobs)  and still be a 50 thousand dollar money loser.  There is no need to equate that to a restoration that includes ONLY electric powertrains...

I wanna know why are you so caught up with this EV swapping thing so bad?  I get it, but please dont ignore the illogical aspect of restoring cars.   The money part.  The green part of not throwing out a good piece of machinery in the garbage and re-purposing it to re-use it is very very logical. 

EV conversions ARE insanely expensive.  There is little value to them as the the market for EV classics is not big. Not in 2021.  But its growing. And THIS is where EV conversions makes sense.  To re-purpose and re-use an old car that will go in the dumpster eventually. It just so happens that an EV conversion is made to it rather than a junked LS engine.  What will fetch more money in the market place?

Well, that also depends on what the project car was, how the project was made (was it made properly?), how it turned out... 

Performance specs means diddly squat...  

But they dont...

Ill bring up Eleanor again.

You brought up a Jaguar, somehow I get to be ridiculed by bringing up an Eleanor themed Mustang...

First...about Jaguar...

https://www.jaguar.com/about-jaguar/jaguar-classic/authentic-cars/e-type-reborn.html

Jaguar the OEM is offering one to the public themselves...

It probably will cost an arm and a leg to buy one from Jaguar themselves. And Im guessing they will sell a few of these to fools with more money than brains.  But isnt that what the automobile is all about anyway?  PASSION

Another criteria that has no value to the fool that is actually restoring a car with whatever vision he has. PS: sometimes that passion is NOT about performance specs to the restorer...    

But this is where we will talk about an Eleanor Mustang.

Its a movie star. It wasnt a speed queen in the original, but the reboot with Nicolas Cage, the 1967 Fastback landed itself the illusion that she is fast. With ricer styling to compliment the engine under the hood that outran a helicopter.  

So...when someone has a new vision for an Eleanor Mustang, and wants to go on a DIFFERENT direction than a ho hum LS swap, or a Voodoo swap or a 5.0 swap, or keep the original carburated V8 in it...  one wants to do a radical thing for 2021.

Well, one COULD put a 2JZ from a MKIV Supra in it...

I wonder how much THIS mustang cost this owner and how much its worth in the Mustang and Ford community. Or even in the Toyoter community...

But...again I ask...  Because we ARE talking about hypotheticals... in this whole debacle anyway...

I ask...is an ecoboosted 4 cylinder Eleanor worth the effort?  Maybe to the guy that has THAT vision. But its probably worth shyte to everybody else. And it falls way way short of what an Eleanor is from the Nic Cage movie... 

But could it be worth it to someone down the road ...if an electrified Mach E powered Eleanor be made?

Its new territory for sure. Its probably a money loser as well...  But is a vision.

This was a SEMA show F-150, right?

Like the GM vehicles before it, right?

SEMA is FULL of high dollar restored classics that most of them WILL be money losers.  JUST because some idiot paid Chip Foose or Troy Trepanier or Gas Monkey Garage to build them a Riddler Trophy caliber car, (we are talking about high amounts of money here)  doesnt mean that when that owner gets fed up with that car that he will get his money back when he tries to re-sell it...  

Smaller builds than never make it anywhere other than to the local car meets, well, those have the potential to lose the least money, I gather.    But those are almost never that radical restorations anyway. But sometimes, those restorations are not super high tech and modern also...    

The internet is full of these crazy builds.

Maybe for extra revenue from youtube adverts?

Why do we wanna harp on an EV swap?

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/jaguars-e-type-zero-only-classic-ev-you-will-ever-need

Like I said, Jaguar will make you one.  Charge you 300 000 English pounds for a car that will do 0-60 in 5.5 seconds with only a 295 BHP electric motor and have a 170 mile range. 

300 000 pounds.

A fool and his money you say?  Some idiot will buy it. 

 Will he get his money back if he wants to re-sell it?   

Well cars DO depreciate if he drives it regularly...

Also... would some fool WANT an EV Jag E type?  Is the market for fools that spend big bucks at auctions as big as classic restored inline six E-Type Jags? 

Who knows?

But the passion for EV Jags or inline six Jags or any car for that matter is DEFINATELY there as we are talking about it.   

Lets talk about an ecoboosted 4 cylinder from Ford swap on one of these Jaaaaags then.  Since an ecoboosted 4 cylinder from Ford has the same specs... 

9 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

The internet is full of these crazy builds.

Maybe for extra revenue from youtube adverts?

 

Sad day when one puts in a sucky Ferrari over rev'd motor with weak ass torque into a classic mustang. Better to put in the Coyote or better yet AWD Mach-E powertrain than this over rated junk plant.

...or even better YET a 630 HP Rousch-Ford 588 CI V8; 4-bolt block, H-beam rods, aluminum heads, roller cam, pump gas, 2/24K warranty.