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  • Drew Dowdell
    Drew Dowdell

    BMW V12 To Live to 2023 At Least

      ...and maybe beyond that...

    BMW is committing to keeping their V12 in production until at least 2023 according to BMW Powertrain Executive Michael Bayer, and he thinks it will be possible to make the engine compliant with the next round of Euro emissions regulations. That means it will stick around for the rest of the current generation of the 7-series sedan.   Unfortunately, there will still not be a V12 offered in the 8-series coupe. 

    We've already reported that Mercedes plans to cut its V12 out of the S-Class sedan after the 2020 model year. By doing so, it will make BMW the standard bearer for the final V12s in regular production. Audi already canceled its W12 engine starting with the 2017 model year though it is still in use in the Bentley Flying Spur.

    One possible reason for BMW keeping the V12 around is its use in Rolls Royce vehicles until they make the big leap to full electrification

     

    Source: Motor1 UK



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    YAWN, Meh, no big deal or anything special to see here. The engine is a dead duck flying. I really wonder how many they expect to sell over the next 5 years.

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    They can get 600 hp out of a V8, so I don't know how much longer the V12 is needed.  Post 2023 it will all be about electric cars, especially on the high end.

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    V12s are still usefull.

    Whether 600 horsepower V8s exist or electric motors will be dominant in the luxury class of vehicles. V12s are still the top of the heap in 2019.

    We still have a-ways to go to reach 2023 when maybe electric motors will dominate the luxury world. Plus, V12s are not meant for pure speed and fastness. But for smoothness AND  speed in a GT car. In a cruiser. But not a bruiser ride. But a smooth, boulevard, cruiser ride and V12s are just about the best there is IN 2019.  I aint talking about hybrid technology either. Just pure internal combustion technology.

    And while it does take 2 turbos for BMW's V12 to get to 600 on 6.6 liters, Im sure BMW could get more than that outta them. But Im not sure BMW wants to dump R&D money on the V12 to achieve that. 

    Ferrari did though. On a 6.5 liter V12 making close to 800 NATURALLY ASPIRATED horsepower. The most NATURALLY ASPIRATED horses EVER to be offered on a road going production vehicle on their GT car. Because the 812 Superfast is a GT car.  (but a lackluster torque number as compared to that stupendous horsepower number)

    Their new big SUV, whatever its called, could possibly use this V12 they got. Why not? 

    They wont sell many, true. But their V12 is still needed.  For 2019. It be not a good decision to dump the V12 now. In  2023?  well, we arent there yet. Possibly a good decision then. 

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    V12 serves a purpose now but electric will replace it.  Electric is more quiet and smoother which is what they want in a Rolls or Bentley.

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    16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    V12 serves a purpose now but electric will replace it.  Electric is more quiet and smoother which is what they want in a Rolls or Bentley.

    Electric is boring, though compared to 12 cylinders. 

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    1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

    Electric is boring, though compared to 12 cylinders. 

    I would have to disagree with you, having been in multiple difference electric conversions, I have come to the same conclusion on electric motors as it is with ICE. The type of motor be it AC or DC and how it is built all plays into the personality of the motor and the noise it creates.

    I totally respect a V12, V8, V6 and 4 bangers. I honestly have no respect for what I have experienced in 3 or 2 cylinder motors especially the noisy dirty 2-stroke motors.

    Personality of electrics is very limited to most people due to the few rare auto's out there. Yet if you have ever used an electric boat motor, there are big differences between them just as I have seen in Auto motors.

    I think Porsche is keenly aware of the need for motor personality and it can be heard here in the latest video of the Taycan Mules.

     

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    7 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    I would have to disagree with you, having been in multiple difference electric conversions, I have come to the same conclusion on electric motors as it is with ICE. The type of motor be it AC or DC and how it is built all plays into the personality of the motor and the noise it creates.

     

     

    Conversions are just aftermarket novelties, though... the subject here are production luxury cars.   The Taycan seems interesting, but I wouldn't take one over a Panamera.   Likewise, I wouldn't choose an electric BMW 7 series over a V12.    Likewise I wouldn't pick a shoddily built Tesla over a well built V8 or V12 luxury car at the various price points Tesla sells at.    I just don't see anything premium or luxury about an electric propulsion system..there is a lot of hype currently, and I think they are going to be a growing market segment for a long time, but to me it's nothing special compared to a V8 or V12.   

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    9 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    Conversions are just aftermarket novelties, though... the subject here are production luxury cars.   The Taycan seems interesting, but I wouldn't take one over a Panamera.   Likewise, I wouldn't choose an electric BMW 7 series over a V12.    Likewise I wouldn't pick a shoddily built Tesla over a well built V8 or V12 luxury car at the various price points Tesla sells at.    I just don't see anything premium or luxury about an electric propulsion system..there is a lot of hype currently, and I think they are going to be a growing market segment for a long time, but to me it's nothing special compared to a V8 or V12.   

    I think you missed the point I was making, to quote my original post: "I have come to the same conclusion on electric motors as it is with ICE."

    Yes conversions are novelty to many, but they still show that electric motors are just as different as ICE motors. Everyone who builds them tends to build differently and so sound, response, etc. is different and while you and I will for sure my friend have a difference of what is luxury versus performance, I am willing to bet that as SMK stated, in a Rolls or Bently, those people care about how Quiet it is over the size of the motor. They want effortless movement in ubber luxury. I can easily see an electric replacing a V12 for smoothness.

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    Just now, dfelt said:

      I am willing to bet that as SMK stated, in a Rolls or Bently, those people care about how Quiet it is over the size of the motor. They want effortless movement in ubber luxury. I can easily see an electric replacing a V12 for smoothness.

    In something like a Bentley or Roller, though, part of that luxury is excess...a V12 fits that perfectly...an electric motor is low and common by comparison. 

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    23 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    In something like a Bentley or Roller, though, part of that luxury is excess...a V12 fits that perfectly...an electric motor is low and common by comparison. 

    The excess is in the results... not how the sausage is made. 

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    8 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    The excess is in the results... not how the sausage is made. 

    How about this for an analogy--a V12 is a porterhouse steak, while an electric drivetrain is a vegan meal.  Both might produce similar protein or calories, one is more satisfying..

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    9 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    How about this for an analogy--a V12 is a porterhouse steak, while an electric drivetrain is a vegan meal.  Both might produce similar protein or calories, one is more satisfying..

    To drive? There isn't an ICE out there that can out smooth or out torque an electric of similar size power unit.  If you were talking the Ford GT, I may see your point about the visceral feeling of the engine, but these are isolation chambers that pride themselves on removing any feeling of the engine beyond the thrust. 

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    2 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

    How about this for an analogy--a V12 is a porterhouse steak, while an electric drivetrain is a vegan meal.  Both might produce similar protein or calories, one is more satisfying..

    Enjoy this video, 100 years ago as Rolls Royce points out they did custom coaches with electric motors and are going back to what pure quiet luxury is all about. Have to say I really like this luxury car!

    WOW, The Bentley EXP 12 6e sports car is a true Luxury car that I would love to drive. As they say ultimate luxury with effortless acceleration effort of ultimate torque, Performance refinement.

     

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    Maybe in a Ferrari a V12 makes sense for noise.  But in a 7-series, S-class, Rolls or Bentley you want silent drive and torque.  EV does that.

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    43 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Maybe in a Ferrari a V12 makes sense for noise.  But in a 7-series, S-class, Rolls or Bentley you want silent drive and torque.  EV does that.

    V12s do that too.

    Silence and smoothness and torque.  Or you can make a V12 roar as loud as you want.   I am not arguing that EVs do a much better job at silence and smoothness and torque. Im just saying that in 2019, V12s still have a place. And until Rolls, Bentley,  Cadillac, Mercedes get really really serious about induction electric motors, V12s are the top of the heap...

    Rolls Royce (BMW), Bentley (Audi, Porsche), Mercedes STILL  in 2019 do NOT have an electric motored vehicle for sale...

    And when I say BMW, I do NOT mean an i3 and the really really useless mileaged (range) i8.  Nor do I mean an equally useless electric mileaged (range) Porsche 918.  

    In 2019, the ONLY adequate EV to do the job of what a V12 should be doing as what we are talking now about quiet drive, torque and silence and smoothness is a Tesla Model S. But the Model S is sold as a sports sedan to kick exotic supercar and muscle car ass rather than  luxo boat isolation chamber. 

    The Model S also is more or less second tier luxury on the inside rather than top tier. 

    The Porsche Taycan is gonna be a sports sedan...and...not on sale yet. 

    So...luxo boat isolation chambers have no choice BUT to be V12s...

    In 2023...like I said, we have about another 4 years to get there. As of now, V12s are the top of the heap for what we are talking about in this thread. 

     

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    As far as Im concerned...about V12s, V10s, V8s, V6s, I6s, flat 6s, 4 cylinders and inline 5s versus electric motors.

    If not a Ferrari 12 cylinder, I dont really care for them all that much.  Ferrari or bust.  

    V10s. Dont care for them all that much either. Unless its a Mopar V10.  OK...I got room for the Porsche Carrera GT and the Lexus LFA.  The BMW V10? 🤔  Nah...I think I prefer an electric motored Tesla Model S instead...

    V8s...well, V8s for me is where its at. From muscle cars, to sports cars, to luxury rides, to classic American boulevard land yacht cruisers, to exotic supercars, the V8s is what I prefer.

    I do like a good 6 cylinder engine, whether inline or in a Vee or even horizontally opposed, I enjoy a 6 cylinder car. 

    4 cylinder cars...If I could, Id pass on those. I do enjoy a good 4 cylinder Honda from the 1990s, but that is where I limit myself as an enthusiast. I know there are other great 4 cylinder cars, but 4 cylinder caars aint my bag, baby!

    Related image

     

    And then we have electric motored cars.

    I think I could enjoy the instant torque and smoothness in my daily driven vehicle. Would it replace the V8 in my heart?

    Probably not. As I enjoy the V8 sounds too much. The Instantaneous and humongous torque WILL replace the V8 in my heart, but not the sweet sounds that a V8 makes. 

    Will I care for an electric motor personality?

    Lets be honest...

    Modern cars, other than the real deal enthusiast cars out there, the V8 Mustang, The V8  Camaro, The V8 Challenger and V8 Charger, The Vette, all the sportcar Porsches, the Miatas, the and all the other high dollar sports cars, there really isnt much personality going on.  The small pocket rocket GTis and Civic Sis got some handling spunk going on, but as far as engine personality is concerned, not much distinguishing one from another. 

    Yeah, there are differences, but...(explained later on)

    The full sized pick-up trucks got V8s. The Bimmers and M-Bs got V8s. The Cadillac Blackwing CT6 is a V8...

    Explanation:

    But lets be really really really honest...the way modern consumers want quiet cabins, no vibrations of any kind because modern consumers deem vibrations as low quality and as nuisasances, and the way that most engines all fall into the same displacement categories (example: every manufacturer makes a turbo 2.0 liter 4 cylinder)  there really isnt much personality to be had here...

    The V8 vehicles I mentioned above, even for the V8 pick-up trucks, their personalities are all muted.  Faint V8 rumble could only be heard upon acceleration, and that too is toned down. All the noise insulation, noise canceling technologies, vibration free counterbalances and the like...not much individuality is happening...

    Therefore,  I (we as consumers) have been programmed NOT to think about vehicle personality the last 20 years or so. Especially when CUVs and SUVs are being presented to us as viable machines for me to own and we (not me) gobble them up like there is no other freakin' niche...(coupes are dead, convertibles are dead, sedans are dying...at least in decades past, the society then bought all kinds of types too. Today, single, married, young, old, female, male, trans, gay, straight, fat, skinny, short, tall, hairy, bald, smart, dumb, sane, crazy, white, black, latino, asian, north south, east, west, liberal, conservative, democrat, republican, commie, capitalist, we (not me) all buy damned SUVs...) :cussing:

    I applaud BMW for keeping the V12 until 2023 or so.  

    Im curious to see what BMW will do to counter the Model S and the Porsche Taycan.

    Im MORE curious to see what BMW has in store for an EV Rolls Royce. Because I dont think Ill care for an EV BMW sport sedan.  They never had me as a fan, but they lost me even more when they decided that SAVs are a thing and they went all fat and bloated for their cars that they now pass off as sports sedans... (minus that BMW 1M and its successor M2 and the E39 M5 and Z8) 

    Im even MORE curious to see how Volkswagen Group goes about EVs and how they handle the "personality" part. 

    They got Bentley.  That is in a GT class.  2 and 4 door. Different than a sports sedan but not quite luxo boat cruiser.  They got luxo isolation chamber SUV.   

    They got Porsche. Porsche has sports car, roadster, GT, sports sedan and sport crossovers. They are all different from Bentley.

    They got Audi. A mix and match between Porsche and Bentley. 

    They got VW. What "personality" is VW going to go after with their EVs? 

    I think I will always prefer Tesla over all other EV sport sedans.

    I think Ill stick to GM and what it will bring to the table with their EVs with Chevy, Buick and Cadillac.  Maybe Ford too. 

    But with that being said, I got to see what everybody actually does with EVs, because as of now...Tesla is best! Nobody else comes close. 

     

     

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    Mercedes said they are dropping the V12 to pursue electric so obviously BMW is going to follow suit.  And how many 760’s do they even sell?  Mercedes has sold way more V12’s than BMW over the past 20 years.  

    How long Rolls Royce keeps a V12 is a better question.  But once the next gen batteries come it is goodnight ICE.  People to light their homes with kerosene lamps because electricity came along.  

    And China is going to make it near impossible to buy ICE cars, then the automakers will just say screw it because it isn’t worth it.  Their government will tax the hell out of ICE cars and you have to win a lottery to be allowed to buy a gas car there.  Who the hell wants to deal with that?  Or you can just go buy an EV no problem.

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    53 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Mercedes said they are dropping the V12 to pursue electric so obviously BMW is going to follow suit.  And how many 760’s do they even sell?  Mercedes has sold way more V12’s than BMW over the past 20 years.  

    How long Rolls Royce keeps a V12 is a better question.  But once the next gen batteries come it is goodnight ICE.  People to light their homes with kerosene lamps because electricity came along.  

    And China is going to make it near impossible to buy ICE cars, then the automakers will just say screw it because it isn’t worth it.  Their government will tax the hell out of ICE cars and you have to win a lottery to be allowed to buy a gas car there.  Who the hell wants to deal with that?  Or you can just go buy an EV no problem.

    Agree, the next gen battery packs, solid state and super conductors is going to really change people impression of EV versus ICE.

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    47 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Mercedes said they are dropping the V12 to pursue electric so obviously BMW is going to follow suit.  And how many 760’s do they even sell?  Mercedes has sold way more V12’s than BMW over the past 20 years.  

    How long Rolls Royce keeps a V12 is a better question.  But once the next gen batteries come it is goodnight ICE.  People to light their homes with kerosene lamps because electricity came along.  

    And China is going to make it near impossible to buy ICE cars, then the automakers will just say screw it because it isn’t worth it.  Their government will tax the hell out of ICE cars and you have to win a lottery to be allowed to buy a gas car there.  Who the hell wants to deal with that?  Or you can just go buy an EV no problem.

    You saw Autoline afterhours with Sandy Munroe  yesterday, huh? 

    So did I!

    Rolls will keep the V12 as long as they dont have an electric motor to put in there. Same with BMW. Same with Mercedes Benz.

    But like you said, China is making life tough for ICE cars and their potential buyers.

    I enjoyed Sandy yesterday. I enjoyed the way he hinted about America's future if present minds dont change and yet, his hinting about that rang loud and clear. But I aint sure Marcus, Gary and John really took in his words regarding China, Tesla and the future of EVs in the world...

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    26 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    You saw Autoline afterhours with Sandy Munroe  yesterday, huh? 

    So did I!

    Rolls will keep the V12 as long as they dont have an electric motor to put in there. Same with BMW. Same with Mercedes Benz.

    But like you said, China is making life tough for ICE cars and their potential buyers.

    I enjoyed Sandy yesterday. I enjoyed the way he hinted about America's future if present minds dont change and yet, his hinting about that rang loud and clear. But I aint sure Marcus, Gary and John really took in his words regarding China, Tesla and the future of EVs in the world...

    I did watch Autoline and Jeremy Clarkson said a  couple  months back there was one city in China that awarded 1 car license all last year.  Once China goes EV the rest will follow, there are 4 times more people there than in the USA and they spend on infrastructure and grow, grow, grow.

    Edited by smk4565
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    • I hear you.   I feel the same.  Other than a C8 Corvette,  Cadillac CT5-V, Mustang and the upcoming Bronco and Mach E, I feel no real pride for FoMoCo or GM.   Fullsized trucks are cool. Im still getting warm to them. Not there yet 100% Take my two rants with a grain of salt.  I soooooo much love American cars that I get emotional when market share or reliability is a topic, and I go off the deep end.   Ill take a jab at GM or American cars myself when the topic is ONLY focused on GM or American cars in general.  But when the world's cars are concern, Ill defend Americana like nothing else.  My two rants above are very emotionally charged diatribes.  Comical, cartoony, slippery slidey on the facts. I understand that.  But my two rants are not that far off the truth either.  And it comes straight from my heart. 
    • Though FCA is a foreign-owned company, they are pretty much the only 'American' car maker I can see myself buying products from in the near future..not really much at Ford or GM I find that interesting. 
    • Its just shouldnt BE that way. Id like to know if Mercedes has EVER lost THAT much market share in Germany or Toyota/Honda in Japan. And while yes, America's capitalism doesnt allow for protectioni...   HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!  Boeing and dairy and lumber and this current administration tells me otherwise but that is something that I already knew. It comes as a surprise to many though.  Its just that this current administration  blew the door wide open and exposed America's protectionist policies... The problem though lies with some bulshyte Boomer and hippy asshats that have it in for American cars since the early to mid 1970s.  Vietnam war being the culprit.  Gas guzzling American muscle cars and land yachts and V8-6-4 Cimarrons are just the excuse.  My honest opinion...       
    • In Europe...  the countries that build cars, their folk are fiercely loyal to their home market.   Germans never think about buying anything but German.  The French never think about buying anything but French and so on.   In Germany, the German car factories are heavily subsidized by the German governments while the unions protect the German auto worker to degrees that the UAW will never see in America DESPITE what we think about the UAW in North America...  The Japanese too.  Same story in Japan as with Germany... The one European country that poo pooed their automotive industry is the one that does not have an automotive industry to call their own anymore.  And laughably, British TV and British automobile journalism diss American cars and even MORE laughably STILL try to insist that Rolls Royce and Bentley are English makes. Just because manufacturing is still being done in the UK... I see the similarities with the UK in the US with how Americans view their own automobile industry...and watch-out...the American car industry is not that far off in emulating the one in Britain...especially during this pandemic. Chrysler is already in foreign hands... And what is funnier....AND SCARIER...is that Americans not only poo poo their own phoquing industry HARDER than the Brits done with their car industry, at least the Brits have the illusion that their marques are still British.  The sad and scary  part is that Americans dont think that American cars are...American...but rather think that Japanese cars made in America are indeed American.  To go further than that, American built German cars...remain to be German.  Americans will bitch and moan about the UAW and will bitch and moan about the American factory worker yet still want American car manufacturing to return back to America, yet most Americans poo poo the American built car but wont poo poo the foreign American made products. They call those American...   It boggles my mind how far this mess has gone since the 1970s oil crisis hit America.   It boggles my mind how we all have poo pooed American cars during the last 40 phoquing years yet we still praise foreign cars yet WE KNOW that foreign cars were JUST AS BAD, IF NOT WORSE then those shytty American cars.   Toyota went down a path in the late 1990s-mid 2000s that was JUST AS BAD, if NOT WORSE as GM's path was in the 1970s, yet here we are...we still poo poo on GM yet we phoquing praise Toyota.   AMERICA....GET YER SHYTE FIXED!!!  GET YOUR HEADS SCREWED ON PROPERLY. YA"LL MISSING A FEW SCREWS!!!  
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