The 2023 Dodge Hornet Flies Out Of The Hive

While it's a much needed addition for Dodge in a much needed to compete in market, I have a major issue with this. Now, take this with a grain of salt and understand this is just my lowly opinion, but all the people who gave GM and Ford absolute hell for badge engineering in the past, better lay it on heavy here because, if it did not say Dodge on it and not have the Dart like headlight/grill treatment, I'd never guess this was anything other than a crappy Alfa. Just a big ole' "meh" from me lol.

24 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

While it's a much needed addition for Dodge in a much needed to compete in market, I have a major issue with this. Now, take this with a grain of salt and understand this is just my lowly opinion, but all the people who gave GM and Ford absolute hell for badge engineering in the past, better lay it on heavy here because, if it did not say Dodge on it and not have the Dart like headlight/grill treatment, I'd never guess this was anything other than a crappy Alfa. Just a big ole' "meh" from me lol.

It definitely looks like they changed very little behind the front fascia.  I guess it gives them something in the compact CUV market, after the demise of the ancient Journey. 

At least w/ the Dart, while it was on a Fiat/Alfa platform, there wasn't a Fiat or Alfa model in the US market with the same panels.    The Alfa Tonale is going to be sold in the US.   Kind of like how back in the 70s-90s Dodge and Plymouth had many cloned models with little brand differentiation... 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Robert Hall

They need a small crossover since that is the #1 segment, but there are also like 20 vehicles in this segment.  You have to be there but it is crowded space, going with a performance angle at least lets them stand out.  I feel like Alfa Romeo and Dodge SUVs aren't really what a lot of people are looking for though and I wouldn't trust reliability of this compared to a Rav4 or CR-V.  In the launch presentation the head of Dodge mentions people in this segment shop fuel economy, value, practicality, etc and how that's boring and Dodge will sell performance and attitude, etc.  But people paying $30k for a car are usually more on a budget and won't buy a car that sucks gas or has costly maintenance repairs.

This is a huge move up market for Dodge. I’m guessing that the “under $30k” part means $28,995 + $995 destination charge base price. The Journey could be had for as little as $23k and that was a bigger vehicle.

 That said, I’m pretty intrigued by it. 

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

But people paying $30k for a car are usually more on a budget and won't buy a car that sucks gas or has costly maintenance repairs.

In normal mode, the engine output gets dialed back for efficiency.  The bigger Terrain 2.0T with a 9-speed gets into the 30s on the highway, so I would expect similar numbers from this. Not an unreasonable expectation when the bigger/heavier Cherokee with the previous version of this engine does 26 mpg.

The Pacifica Hybrid does 83 MPGe, so the PHEV Hornet R/T should easily meet or exceed that. 
 

For my household, the Hornet R/T would effectively be a high powered EV in daily commuting. For both of us our daily round trip is less than 30 miles.

I dont think fuel economy will be an issue for either model.

57 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

In normal mode, the engine output gets dialed back for efficiency.  The bigger Terrain 2.0T with a 9-speed gets into the 30s on the highway, so I would expect similar numbers from this. Not an unreasonable expectation when the bigger/heavier Cherokee with the previous version of this engine does 26 mpg.

The Pacifica Hybrid does 83 MPGe, so the PHEV Hornet R/T should easily meet or exceed that. 
 

For my household, the Hornet R/T would effectively be a high powered EV in daily commuting. For both of us our daily round trip is less than 30 miles.

I dont think fuel economy will be an issue for either model.

Fuel economy might not be, but I'd question reliability and build quality.  And a Rav4 hybrid or Prime could top this in fuel economy I'd guess, likewise with the Escape hybrid and PHEV.  

I get the use case for the PHEV, but most of those once the battery is depleted is less efficient than a regular hybrid because you are just carrying extra battery weight, plus you have the maintenance costs of 2 powertrains.  I think just going all EV makes more sense.

And I'd guess the price is $29,900 and Destination is like $1500.  Dodge and Jeep like to do crap like that for advertising purposes.  And you can raise it a year later, that "under $40k" F150 Lightning lasted like 3 months, now it is like $49k for the base model with destination.   Dodge has always had to rely on rock bottom price to sell, as you pointed out with the Journey, this thing will be Cadillac XT4 pricing with 1 option package.  Risky strategy by them to go up market, especially given how Alfa Romeo is bombing.

There’s a bunch of option packages listed in the release already.  The engine of the PHEV is tiny. I’m sure they are managing the battery to it never goes to zero just like the Volt does, and there is plenty of Regen possibilities
 

Don’t be so negative 

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

And you can raise it a year later, that "under $40k" F150 Lightning lasted like 3 months, now it is like $49k for the base model with destination.

Um, unprecedented inflation will do that. It’s also $46K and don’t forget it now qualifies for the $7500 EV credit as part of the IRA bill passed this week. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by surreal1272

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Um, unprecedented inflation will do that. It’s also $46K and don’t forget it now qualifies for the $7500 EV credit as part of the IRA bill passed this week. 

It's not unprecedented.  We're still below the inflation of the 70s and 80s that was in both of our lifetimes.

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

It's not unprecedented.  We're still below the inflation of the 70s and 80s that was in both of our lifetimes.

I am speaking of the quickness at which everything went up. COVID affected that 100%. 

5 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Um, unprecedented inflation will do that. It’s also $46K and don’t forget it now qualifies for the $7500 EV credit as part of the IRA bill passed this week. 

I think it was eligible before, but Ford was about to run out of credits so tho are good to go now.  Assuming their batteries have enough North American content to qualify.

7 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

There’s a bunch of option packages listed in the release already.  The engine of the PHEV is tiny. I’m sure they are managing the battery to it never goes to zero just like the Volt does, and there is plenty of Regen possibilities
 

Don’t be so negative 

I am sure it doesn’t go to zero but the Fusion Energi when off EV only mode got less mpg than a Fusion hybrid.  The Volt was 42 mpg after you use up the electric range, a Camry hybrid is 50 mpg. 
 

It is also possible they went the PHEV route to get tax credits because under the old law the would have but now the Hornet won’t qualify.  And 3 years ago when development started they would have had no idea the law would change on them.

16 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

In normal mode, the engine output gets dialed back for efficiency.  The bigger Terrain 2.0T with a 9-speed gets into the 30s on the highway, so I would expect similar numbers from this. Not an unreasonable expectation when the bigger/heavier Cherokee with the previous version of this engine does 26 mpg.

The Pacifica Hybrid does 83 MPGe, so the PHEV Hornet R/T should easily meet or exceed that. 
 

For my household, the Hornet R/T would effectively be a high powered EV in daily commuting. For both of us our daily round trip is less than 30 miles.

I dont think fuel economy will be an issue for either model.

good that this new offering has come up.  I prefer the Tonale, but my guess is they will sell at higher prices.  Big thing is the 2.0 turbo is a valid option in the Hornet; those who GM told f u to who wanted the 2.0 to continue in the Terrain and Equinox have something to go to rather than settle for the 1.5.

11 minutes ago, regfootball said:

good that this new offering has come up.  I prefer the Tonale, but my guess is they will sell at higher prices.  Big thing is the 2.0 turbo is a valid option in the Hornet; those who GM told f u to who wanted the 2.0 to continue in the Terrain and Equinox have something to go to rather than settle for the 1.5.

The Hornet will be a little bit smaller than those (cue the roominess complaints in a vehicle intended to be a sports crossover).  This isn't a direct replacement for the Journey in that regard and it won't line up against the CR-V/RAV-4/TerriNox directly because it will be more compact.  From an interior size perspective, I would expect this to line up more between an Encore GX and a BMW X3.

5 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The Hornet will be a little bit smaller than those (cue the roominess complaints in a vehicle intended to be a sports crossover).  This isn't a direct replacement for the Journey in that regard and it won't line up against the CR-V/RAV-4/TerriNox directly because it will be more compact.  From an interior size perspective, I would expect this to line up more between an Encore GX and a BMW X3.

this is Compass sized.  The Equinox and current Compass are pretty similar in size but i can see if it ended up between the Equinox and Encore GX.

Edited August 19, 2022 by regfootball

18 minutes ago, regfootball said:

this is Compass sized.  The Equinox and current Compass are pretty similar in size but i can see if it ended up between the Equinox and Encore GX.

I'm not sure why, but the Compass feels a lot more snug than the Equinox.  The Terrain feels downright airy.  I know the Nox and Terrain have identical dimensions. I've always considered the Cherokee with its larger cargo capacity to be more of the equivalent to the TerriNox.

MotorTrend compares the Tonale to the XC40 and Q3... which is probably about right.

6 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I'm not sure why, but the Compass feels a lot more snug than the Equinox.  The Terrain feels downright airy.  I know the Nox and Terrain have identical dimensions. I've always considered the Cherokee with its larger cargo capacity to be more of the equivalent to the TerriNox.

MotorTrend compares the Tonale to the XC40 and Q3... which is probably about right.

Strange.  I’ve seen comparisons before where they compared the edge and Cherokee. The Cherokee is a real tweener IMO.

I would would like to see them enlarge the compass interior a bit. I know what you mean on the snug part. They did improve the interior a whole lot this past year. At least it’s nice to sit in now finally. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by regfootball

34 minutes ago, regfootball said:

Strange.  I’ve seen comparisons before where they compared the edge and Cherokee. The Cherokee is a real tweener IMO.

I would would like to see them enlarge the compass interior a bit. I know what you mean on the snug part. They did improve the interior a whole lot this past year. At least it’s nice to sit in now finally. 

I haven't tried the new Compass yet... it looks very Corsair inside,  just a little more "woodsy"

It should be noted that the previous credits had expired a month or so ago. The new bill extends that so it's still a valid number to count against the price.

1 hour ago, regfootball said:

this is Compass sized.  The Equinox and current Compass are pretty similar in size but i can see if it ended up between the Equinox and Encore GX.

The Compass is 173 inches long, the Tonale is 178, so I assume the Hornet is also.  Escape and RAV4 are about 180 and Equinox is 183.  An Encore GX is 171 inches long.  
 

The Hornet is probably sized how it is because the Alfa was sized against GLA/Q3/X1/X2 type cars.  Since Alfa has the Stelvio as their X3/GLC rival, which would be Equinox size.  

15 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

It should be noted that the previous credits had expired a month or so ago. The new bill extends that so it's still a valid number to count against the price.

Ok, I thought they maybe still had some.  This list of eligible cars is going to change again in January, so I’m curious to see what drops off and what comes back.  If a $7500 credit comes back for the Bolt then that’s the deal of the decade there.

20 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Compass is 173 inches long, the Tonale is 178, so I assume the Hornet is also.  Escape and RAV4 are about 180 and Equinox is 183.  An Encore GX is 171 inches long. 

The Encore and Encore GX are marvels of modern packaging. I can't think of any (ICE) platform from any other manufacturer that gave that much interior room in such a short space.  I genuinely liked my Encore's size when it was just the two of us, but as we now have to transport aging parents, it got too small for 4.

My guess is people buying a Hornet will want a usable back seat.  

35 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

My guess is people buying a Hornet will want a usable back seat.  

As if there’s not a crapload of small premium SUVs out there?  GLA? X1? X2? Q3? Whatever the Lexus ones are these days? Encore GX? XT4? Tonale of course…

I’m actually surprised there isn’t an Acura version of the HR-V yet. How about an Infiniti QX20 based on the Kicks?

3 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

As if there’s not a crapload of small premium SUVs out there?  GLA? X1? X2? Q3? Whatever the Lexus ones are these days? Encore GX? XT4? Tonale of course…

I’m actually surprised there isn’t an Acura version of the HR-V yet. How about an Infiniti QX20 based on the Kicks?

But will the Hornet get compared with the premium brands or the RAV4, CX-5 and Equinox that will be bigger and roomier perhaps for the same money.  I don't think a car buyer is going to look at a GLA, a Q3 and a Dodge Hornet.  Maybe Dodge against Ford and Chevy.  The Equinox even after the refresh still seems boring and dated, the Escape is nothing good, CX-5 or RAV4 seem to be the better options and the Tucson seems pretty good.

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

But will the Hornet get compared with the premium brands or the RAV4, CX-5 and Equinox that will be bigger and roomier perhaps for the same money.  I don't think a car buyer is going to look at a GLA, a Q3 and a Dodge Hornet.  Maybe Dodge against Ford and Chevy.  The Equinox even after the refresh still seems boring and dated, the Escape is nothing good, CX-5 or RAV4 seem to be the better options and the Tucson seems pretty good.

I think once it gets around that you can get an Alfa for Dodge money, it’ll sell to that set. 

All of the options you listed are significantly slower (8s - 10s range) than the base Hornet (6.5s), except the RAV4 PHEV, but that’s a $45k vehicle base if you can find one without markup.

This is aimed at people who want more sport.