BMW Takes the Luxury Crown For 2015 in the U.S.

Speaking of Buick.. did anyone see this tidbit out on the Web???

 

 

 

Buick will show the two cars at a party Sunday night before the media days of the Detroit auto show. One is a sporty coupe about the size of the Chevrolet Camaro sports car, said the person, who asked not to be identified because the model is a secret. The other is the Buick Envision,

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This is interesting.. and if it is Alpha based. suggests that what I've been saying about the CTS moving to Omega as a "SWB CT6" called CT5 is true.. and that the bulk of Alpha sales will be coming from non-Cadillac vehicles. Hell.. Camaro plant just added another shift at the plant.. a Rivera on Alpha would be sexy hot

 

 

You may not believe they are direct competitors, but they absolutely are, and in many cases, even outrank with more luxury features and power, AWD, etc.  

 

For example, you absolutely can't begin to try and sell me on the Explorer Platinum being outclassed by any Buick.

 

 

 

 The Enclave outclasses it and the seriously rubs noses with the MKT.. the closest thing I can think of over at the Lincoln brand, sans the Ugliness. The thing is that I truly believe that U have not been in a Buick in the last 20 years.. U shoot off at the mouth constantly how great Ford is because it pays your paycheck. 

 

 

I talk up Ford just as you ooze all things GM.

hypocrite much???

 

 

 

I love GM because I own their cars and love everyone of them that I buy. U love Ford because they pay your effin paycheck. LOL.. as so many of your very own family buys GM tho. Of course U will hit me with a story about how your niece's Camaro almost killed her or left her stranded.. and she hates GM now and bought a punk ass Muskank

The C-class had only a sedan in 2015 and it was the only car in the segment to post an increase.  The coupe isn't on sale yet here.  So it is possible to succeed with one body style, just not the ideal scenario.    But I have said for years Cadillac needs more product.  This isn't a new revelation that luxury buyers want choices in body styles, and buyers wanting crossovers isn't new.   If you don't build the products that people want, you can only blame yourself.

 

Speaking of luxury, the Escalade doesn't offer a panoramic sunroof.  Even a Ford Edge has that.   Escalade doesn't have semi-autonomous drive either.  I know it is a cash cow product, and the buyers of an Escalade probably don't care, but it is not like it is perfect vehicle and couldn't see its market share dwindle with the BMW X7, or the Range Rover or even the Bentley SUV for the super rich.

Speaking of Buick.. did anyone see this tidbit out on the Web???

 

 

 

Buick will show the two cars at a party Sunday night before the media days of the Detroit auto show. One is a sporty coupe about the size of the Chevrolet Camaro sports car, said the person, who asked not to be identified because the model is a secret. The other is the Buick Envision,

AutoNews

 

This is interesting.. and if it is Alpha based. suggests that what I've been saying about the CTS moving to Omega as a "SWB CT6" called CT5 is true.. and that the bulk of Alpha sales will be coming from non-Cadillac vehicles. Hell.. Camaro plant just added another shift at the plant.. a Rivera on Alpha would be sexy hot

I would like to see a Riviera coupe, priced around $35k, 3.6 V6 standard, and just make it an elegant looking, smooth performing car.   The Infiniti G37 or Q60 whatever is a racy, loud kind of car.  Mustang and Camaro are sports cars, likewise with the Genesis coupe.  It would be nice for there to be a mature person's mid-size coupe for the empty nesters that want more style than an Azera, Impala, Cadenza or Camry, offer but can't afford $60k for an E400 coupe and don't want a noisy Infiniti with the world's loudest V6 exhaust note.

 

 

Expedition Platinum is the equal to GMC.

Same for Explorer Platinum.

Same for Fusion Titantium with Regal.

Certainly for F-150.

Certainly for SD.

Certainly for Edge, although GM does not have exact competition.

And yes, even Escape and Fusion, and soon, that much more with new Fusion.

The Fusion Titanium is no Regal and is the same distance behind the LaCrosse as it is from Lexus ES. It's a laughable suggestion based on the current products.

No, the platinum / titanium trims on the fiesta, escape, focus, Taurus, and flex are not premium to the level of buick or Denali.

So you're left with F-series, Explorer, Expedition, and if you want me to toss you a bone, the Edge. The take rate in premium trims is **NOT** outselling Buick and GMC combined... not even just Buick and Denali combined.

 

 

 

You may not believe they are direct competitors, but they absolutely are, and in many cases, even outrank with more luxury features and power, AWD, etc.  

 

For example, you absolutely can't begin to try and sell me on the Explorer Platinum being outclassed by any Buick.

 

 

In every instance when I posted, I specifically set aside the Explorer Platinum trim, along with the F-series and Expedition, as being worthy of consideration as a premium trimmed trimmed vehicle.  EVERY SINGLE POST I have stated that Explorer, F-series, and Expedition with premium trims are on Par.  

 

I've also SPECIFICALLY pointed out that the Fusion, Focus, Escape, Fiesta, Flex, and Taurus are NOT worthy, thus should not be counted a premium trims even if they wear Platinum/Titanium badge.

 

On the Fusion - The only stuff Titanium gets you over an SE is Leather (Optional on SE), Sony, Fog Lamps (Comes on SE Leather package), and Dual-Zone (Optional on SE)....that's it.  So if you don't care about having the Sony sound system, you can build your own Titanium out of an SE very easily.  Nothing else on the interior gets changed.... so in reality a Titanium is just an SE with Sony.

 

On the Escape - The only stuff standard on a Titanium that you can't get on an SEL is the Sony and the Foot activated rear hatch. 

 

On the Taurus Limited - the only improvements you cannot get on an SE are memory , 10 way heated/cooled seats. (SHO sells in too small of a volume to bother with)

 

On the Edge Titanium - you get Sony, Leather, and power passenger seat.   On the Edge, for some reason the Sport is more expensive than the premium trimmed Titanium... I know it's a powertrain thing, but shouldn't the lux model be the most expensive?

 

So why do I set aside the Explorer, F-series, and Expedition?

 

Explorer - The Explorer Platinum's leather seats are a nice upgrade over lesser Explorer's leather seats, they are quilted and perforated in places, there are matching door liners that really add an air of luxury to the cabin. There is sharp looking contrast stitching in places, wood is added to the rim of the steering wheel (a favorite lux treatment of mine), the Sony system is further upgraded from the Sony available in the Limited.... the end result is that you cannot build an Explorer Limited to nearly the same level as an Explorer Platinum and fool anyone.  This story repeats itself on the F-series (though there the Limited is higher than the Platinum and both have substantial upgrades over a Lariat).

 

The Expedition Platinum is less of a clear upgrade over a Limited, but there is the King Ranch for about the same price with its unique interior trim that gives an air of luxury.

 

This is why I say F-Series, Explorer, Expedition Premium trims = worthy of being compared to premium brands.... and Fusion/Edge/Flex premium trims are not.

 

Furthermore, Explorer Platinum trim would have to have a 41% take rate just to exceed sales of Enclave + Acadia Denali..... and that simply isn't happening.

 

And THAT is why, the premium trimmed Fords are not outselling GMC and Buick combined.... not even Buick and Denali combined.... possibly not even Denali alone.

I do like this place :D

Anyhoo, good on GM for having two brands on this list. It can't be easy juggling two luxury brands, but they do pull it off.

Well rumor is Ford is planning a Taurus SHO Titanium to challenge the S-class.  It will have the 400 hp ecoboost V6, body side moldings, black ash wood grain trim on the dash and cost $93,925 with destination charge.

No no, that's the Continental Black Series Platinum Bill Blass Edition.

The C-class had only a sedan in 2015 and it was the only car in the segment to post an increase. The coupe isn't on sale yet here. So it is possible to succeed with one body style, just not the ideal scenario.

I can go on cars.com right now and still find plenty of new "old body style "C-classes, including coupes... Haven't even been titled yet. In 2015? Way more '14,13s avail. The new CClass was helped by incentive based old C-Class. This is like an F150 argument saying that it's only sales were from the Aluminum one for 2015. Get real Francis. It probably has an even greater reason to do with the drop in CLA sales. Why buy that pos when one can get a pre-change, more masculine looking older new C-Class for the same coin or less?

I do like this place :D

Anyhoo, good on GM for having two brands on this list. It can't be easy juggling two luxury brands, but they do pull it off.

I would hve included the third one if I had of had exact Denali numbers and not just "about 25%"

The C-class had only a sedan in 2015 and it was the only car in the segment to post an increase.  The coupe isn't on sale yet here.  So it is possible to succeed with one body style, just not the ideal scenario.    But I have said for years Cadillac needs more product.  This isn't a new revelation that luxury buyers want choices in body styles, and buyers wanting crossovers isn't new.   If you don't build the products that people want, you can only blame yourself.

 

Speaking of luxury, the Escalade doesn't offer a panoramic sunroof.  Even a Ford Edge has that.   Escalade doesn't have semi-autonomous drive either.  I know it is a cash cow product, and the buyers of an Escalade probably don't care, but it is not like it is perfect vehicle and couldn't see its market share dwindle with the BMW X7, or the Range Rover or even the Bentley SUV for the super rich.

Again, that near bottom feeder C class was MBs best seller (of which there are FIVE variations of per MBs website) while you try to say that MB makes more sells off of their mid range luxury cars. Hmmmmm...lie much?

Edited January 9, 2016 by surreal1272

I've been told by the GMC people that the Denali trim alone outsells Lincoln and Acura individually and the entire Land Rover / Jaguar lineup combined.

And premium trimmed Ford cars, trucks and SUV's outsell Buick and GMC combined. Easily.Congrats to BMW.

Well deserved.

Titanium/Platinum as a trim does not necessarily a premium trim make. On the F150s and Explorer, yes. On the Fusion, Focus, Escape, and Edge etc, the distinction is far far less clear.

Its translucent... No.. Opaque. Put a Titanium Fusion, hell put a Fusion made of titanium next to a normal Fusion, and I'd be hard pressed to tell yourself why U spent the extra coin. Buick? There is a level of cache attached to it. Ford Titanium? Not at all.

I agree that the name Titanium has no cache at all but place a titanium fusion next to a base fusion and it's very obvious. I do feel like they are watering down the name "titanium". For instance, 2013 Escape titaniums pretty much came with everything including the largest wheels and engine. Get a titanium, get the big engine and wheels standard along with all sorts of other options. Jump ahead and the 19's and 2.0t are options on Titanium trimmed Escapes. I don't like that.

 

Well rumor is Ford is planning a Taurus SHO Titanium to challenge the S-class.  It will have the 400 hp ecoboost V6, body side moldings, black ash wood grain trim on the dash and cost $93,925 with destination charge.

No no, that's the Continental Black Series Platinum Bill Blass Edition.

 

They definitely need a 2 tone Bill Blass Continental.  

 

The C-class had only a sedan in 2015 and it was the only car in the segment to post an increase.  The coupe isn't on sale yet here.  So it is possible to succeed with one body style, just not the ideal scenario.    But I have said for years Cadillac needs more product.  This isn't a new revelation that luxury buyers want choices in body styles, and buyers wanting crossovers isn't new.   If you don't build the products that people want, you can only blame yourself.

 

Speaking of luxury, the Escalade doesn't offer a panoramic sunroof.  Even a Ford Edge has that.   Escalade doesn't have semi-autonomous drive either.  I know it is a cash cow product, and the buyers of an Escalade probably don't care, but it is not like it is perfect vehicle and couldn't see its market share dwindle with the BMW X7, or the Range Rover or even the Bentley SUV for the super rich.

Again, that near bottom feeder C class was MBs best seller (of which there are FIVE variations of per MBs website) while you try to say that MB makes more sells off of their mid range luxury cars. Hmmmmm...lie much?

 

The Encore is Buick's #1 seller and their second cheapest product.   The SRX is Cadillac's #1 seller and their 2nd cheapest product.  The Escape is the #1 selling ford after F-series, and the Escape is near the bottom.  Lots of brands have their best sellers as the lower end of their line up.  And I said 2 of the top 3 selling lines are middle level at Mercedes.  C-class, E-class, GLE-class are their top 3 selling lines.  There have been years when the E-class was their #1 seller.  Perhaps the new one will catch fire and regain the title.

 

CLA + CLA   55,236

C-class + GLK/GLC = 113,982

E-class + ML/GLE   =  102,949  (add CLS which has defect replaced the E550 sedan and it is 109,101 units)

S-class + GL  =  49,641

 

The top and bottom are pretty close, if you add the SL and G-wagen to the top group they would outsell the A range. ( and those cars don't share platforms, I just lumped together by price point)

 

 

The C-class had only a sedan in 2015 and it was the only car in the segment to post an increase.  The coupe isn't on sale yet here.  So it is possible to succeed with one body style, just not the ideal scenario.    But I have said for years Cadillac needs more product.  This isn't a new revelation that luxury buyers want choices in body styles, and buyers wanting crossovers isn't new.   If you don't build the products that people want, you can only blame yourself.

 

Speaking of luxury, the Escalade doesn't offer a panoramic sunroof.  Even a Ford Edge has that.   Escalade doesn't have semi-autonomous drive either.  I know it is a cash cow product, and the buyers of an Escalade probably don't care, but it is not like it is perfect vehicle and couldn't see its market share dwindle with the BMW X7, or the Range Rover or even the Bentley SUV for the super rich.

Again, that near bottom feeder C class was MBs best seller (of which there are FIVE variations of per MBs website) while you try to say that MB makes more sells off of their mid range luxury cars. Hmmmmm...lie much?

 

The Encore is Buick's #1 seller and their second cheapest product.   The SRX is Cadillac's #1 seller and their 2nd cheapest product.  The Escape is the #1 selling ford after F-series, and the Escape is near the bottom.  Lots of brands have their best sellers as the lower end of their line up.  And I said 2 of the top 3 selling lines are middle level at Mercedes.  C-class, E-class, GLE-class are their top 3 selling lines.  There have been years when the E-class was their #1 seller.  Perhaps the new one will catch fire and regain the title.

 

CLA + CLA   55,236

C-class + GLK/GLC = 113,982

E-class + ML/GLE   =  102,949  (add CLS which has defect replaced the E550 sedan and it is 109,101 units)

S-class + GL  =  49,641

 

The top and bottom are pretty close, if you add the SL and G-wagen to the top group they would outsell the A range. ( and those cars don't share platforms, I just lumped together by price point)

 

You missed the point by a country mile. Look at your own numbers. Their best seller there is one of their CHEAPEST cars While you try to claim otherwise, the C class is NOT mid level. It was an entry level model until the CLA sub-entry car came out. The C class is still at the bottom of that totem poll in the grand scheme of things, no matter how you try to paint it. Point here is that almost all makes bets sellers tend to be their cheaper models, DUH! That obviously includes Mercedes.

 

BTW, what in the world does the Escape, a NON LUXURY CUV have to do with anything being discussed here? The answer is nothing btw.

Edited January 9, 2016 by surreal1272

 

 

 

You may not believe they are direct competitors, but they absolutely are, and in many cases, even outrank with more luxury features and power, AWD, etc.  

 

For example, you absolutely can't begin to try and sell me on the Explorer Platinum being outclassed by any Buick.

 

 

 

 The Enclave outclasses it and the seriously rubs noses with the MKT.. the closest thing I can think of over at the Lincoln brand, sans the Ugliness. The thing is that I truly believe that U have not been in a Buick in the last 20 years.. U shoot off at the mouth constantly how great Ford is because it pays your paycheck. 

 

 

I talk up Ford just as you ooze all things GM.

hypocrite much???

 

 

 

I love GM because I own their cars and love everyone of them that I buy. U love Ford because they pay your effin paycheck. LOL.. as so many of your very own family buys GM tho. Of course U will hit me with a story about how your niece's Camaro almost killed her or left her stranded.. and she hates GM now and bought a punk ass Muskank

 

 

 

I own 2 GM products right now. 

You are a hypocrite, plain and simple.

 

 

 

 

I've been told by the GMC people that the Denali trim alone outsells Lincoln and Acura individually and the entire Land Rover / Jaguar lineup combined.

And premium trimmed Ford cars, trucks and SUV's outsell Buick and GMC combined. Easily.Congrats to BMW.

Well deserved.

Titanium/Platinum as a trim does not necessarily a premium trim make. On the F150s and Explorer, yes. On the Fusion, Focus, Escape, and Edge etc, the distinction is far far less clear.

Its translucent... No.. Opaque. Put a Titanium Fusion, hell put a Fusion made of titanium next to a normal Fusion, and I'd be hard pressed to tell yourself why U spent the extra coin. Buick? There is a level of cache attached to it. Ford Titanium? Not at all.

I agree that the name Titanium has no cache at all but place a titanium fusion next to a base fusion and it's very obvious. I do feel like they are watering down the name "titanium". For instance, 2013 Escape titaniums pretty much came with everything including the largest wheels and engine. Get a titanium, get the big engine and wheels standard along with all sorts of other options. Jump ahead and the 19's and 2.0t are options on Titanium trimmed Escapes. I don't like that.

 

 

It's not "base v. titanium" that I have an issue with.  It's "titanium/platinum/limited v. the next step down" that I have an issue with. It's the fact that you can option an SE to pretty much be a Titanium that makes it not so premium to me.  And it's not about what comes standard in that trim, it's about what you can't get unless you get that trim.  On the Terrain Denali, the one I consider to be the least worthy of the Denali badge, you get unique grille, wood rim steering wheel, slightly improved perf leather seats, additional chrome, additional interior ambient lighting, and unique wheels... things you can't get on an SLT at any price.

 

In the Fusion/Flex/Taurus/Focus/Edge, there is very little difference between a mid-level and the top level.   It gets more confusing when Ford gets the trim levels out of order.  At F-150, Platinum is below Limited and there is no Sport though there is a sport apperance package. On Explorer, Platinum is above both Limited and Sport.  On Edge, Sport is above Titanium. On Taurus, Limited is the top non-SHO.  On Focus, Titanium is kinda the middle trim with ST and RS above it.  With GMC, there is no confusion.  Denali is the king.  The trim lines below that all keep in order as well... Base/SLE/SLT

 

Two of the more ridiculous Titanium trims are the Fiesta Titanium and Transit Connect Titanium.  Neither of which come anywhere close to being considered premium vehicles or trim level.   In the Fiesta, Titanium gets you 16s, better seats and better stereo... but you're locked out of the 1.0T which is the engine I'd want.    The TC Titanium gets you second row bucket seats, 17s, and leather.   Neither of these are anywhere near the level of Buick or Denali. 

Drew, Sport is not above Titanium for Edge.  It comes down to powertrain costs, where Sport comes with top boosted engine and AWD and Titanium is offered with I4 boosted and FWD.  Match powertrain and drivetrain and they are matched, but Titanium offers more luxury and can be priced higher.

And Fiesta obviously offers far more than just wheels and seats. 

 

I am not sure about the Limited vs Platinum in truck.  Things do get a big funny, and all these products are essentially re-badged same as Buick and GMC.....but it could be worst.  Ford could have to manage several luxury brands.  With just trim levels, far less overhead, cost and complexity.

In the Edge, Sport and Titanium appear to be basically equal in terms of equipment except for powertrain/suspension/steering.  I'm not saying the cost isn't justified. It just that I can put the same creature comforts in both of them equally and the sport will cost more due to powertrain (as an extra charge powertrain should).   To me, that puts the Sport above the Titanium since I can't get the high end power train in the Titanium.

 

From a Buick perspective, it would be like saying that the Regal Turbo Premium Group 2 is above the GS. It just isn't.

 

For the Fiesta... no it isn't obvious that the Titanium offers anything more than I listed... at least not on Ford.com's comparison tool.  It boils down to nicer radio, nicer seats, bigger wheels and a rear view camera.  If it was something obvious, it would jump out at me.  If there is something I'm not seeing that makes it a huge leap over the SE, point it out to me. 

 

 

 

 

You may not believe they are direct competitors, but they absolutely are, and in many cases, even outrank with more luxury features and power, AWD, etc.  

 

For example, you absolutely can't begin to try and sell me on the Explorer Platinum being outclassed by any Buick.

 

 

 

 The Enclave outclasses it and the seriously rubs noses with the MKT.. the closest thing I can think of over at the Lincoln brand, sans the Ugliness. The thing is that I truly believe that U have not been in a Buick in the last 20 years.. U shoot off at the mouth constantly how great Ford is because it pays your paycheck. 

 

 

I talk up Ford just as you ooze all things GM.

hypocrite much???

 

 

 

I love GM because I own their cars and love everyone of them that I buy. U love Ford because they pay your effin paycheck. LOL.. as so many of your very own family buys GM tho. Of course U will hit me with a story about how your niece's Camaro almost killed her or left her stranded.. and she hates GM now and bought a punk ass Muskank

 

 

 

I own 2 GM products right now. 

You are a hypocrite, plain and simple.

 

One GM product that you happily threw under the bus just to make headlines for your less than genuine posts  _{(as in trolling)} in the ignition switch thread...

Like  Casa said...your Grand Prix had keys re-engineered to have a small round hole instead of a long oblongish hole. _{(and this is where I will add the "WOW" for you)}      WOW!    _{(you know, for dramatic effect)}

 

 

Mercedes-Benz is not just a luxury car maker, they gave up that title when they created their cheaper lines to compete against Chevy and started to sell vans and other work and commercial related autos on the same lot as their lofty S Series as well as the rest.

 

You cannot just be a luxury maker when you have the Sprinter vans sitting only feet away.

Yup.

 

That business model passes muster in Europe, not in North America!

There are countless of examples of this that has failed in North America.

Hyundai and their Genesis model.

VW with their Phaeton.

Cadillac with their Cimarron.

Hell, even M-B with their C Class hatchback.

 

If M-B continues this path, it wont be long when this will fall flat on their face.

 

Sure, for now, they have finally succeeded with the entry level oxymoron marketing campaign and sheeple and badge snobs have accepted this, however, when the next generation of car buyers come along, the ones to control the wants and needs of the automotive landscape in the future when it becomes their turn to dictate what is what, these guys will have witnessed the incredible cheapening of the brand, the incredible exposure that this entry level luxury perception is producing, along with those commercial vans and school buses, and those buyers will NOT see Mercedes Benz as something special and expensive....just cheap, plebeian, and utilitarian...all characteristics that are OPPOSITE of luxury...

 

Its happening now as we speak....slowly eroding...

 

Proof...the article says that the 3,5,7 Series sedans are in a sales decline, the SUVs are the ones that carry the sales...

 

 

The 4-series, which despite BMW being propelled in terms of growth mostly by CUVs, was the lone stalwart car nameplate to actually show gains. Although the 1/2-series were up 77%, it must be noted that they are, for all intents new entries after the 1-series was discontinued in 2014 and re-pinned the 2-series for 2015. The 3,5,6, and 7-Series, in addition to the Z4, were all down

 

 

 

 

Quite telling...

 

 

 

Car sales in general are losing ground to SUV/CUV's. It only stand to reason a brand with several such vehicles, and many added ones, would experience a decrease in their car sales.

 

 

So I guess...its a good thing for BMW to have their original bread and butter car...the 3 Series...lose ground to the X3...

And...today...the 3 Series aint even the 3 Series...its the 2 Series...but even that model is not carrying the flame of BMW's mantra, the Ultimate Driving Machine, the very essence and rasion d'etre of BMW.

 

Frisky...please...

 

BMW's bread and butter was the 3 Series.

BMW's soul..was the 3 Series. 

It was and still is _{(the past generation 3 Series cars)} a CULT CLASSIC.

The 3 Series is the stuff that legends are made of.

Its what propelled BMW into a luxury giant.

 

In 2015/2016, its soccer mom vehicles. MAINSTREAM soccer mom vehicles that drive the image

If you dont think that will be a detriment in the not so distant future, I cant help you.

Drew,

my bad on the Edge powertrain. Could have sworn they offered the 2.7L in the Titanium like Explorer offers in their Limited.

 

But again, honestly, the only one who has to understand the differences is the dealers, which is easy.  Customers can care less and it just comes down to more choices across several trim titles. No biggie at all imo.  And still far better than all the cost of several luxury brands.

Drew,

my bad on the Edge powertrain. Could have sworn they offered the 2.7L in the Titanium like Explorer offers in their Limited.

 

But again, honestly, the only one who has to understand the differences is the dealers, which is easy.  Customers can care less and it just comes down to more choices across several trim titles. No biggie at all imo.  And still far better than all the cost of several luxury brands.

 

Features are not in themselves a luxury if the rest of the car doesn't match up.  The Civic and Elantra offer heated rear seats, but no one would consider them to be a premium luxury brand or trim.

 

Just putting a so-called premium badge on the trunk and adding a couple of features as standard does not alone make it premium worthy.   And that's why, except for the Explorer, F-Series, and Expedition, just saying that Titanium/Platinum/Limited trim models are equal to the premium brands at other manufacturers is dubious at best.

 

 

 

So I guess...its a good thing for BMW to have their original bread and butter car...the 3 Series...lose ground to the X3...

And...today...the 3 Series aint even the 3 Series...its the 2 Series...but even that model is not carrying the flame of BMW's mantra, the Ultimate Driving Machine, the very essence and rasion d'etre of BMW.

 

Frisky...please...

 

BMW's bread and butter was the 3 Series.

BMW's soul..was the 3 Series. 

It was and still is _{(the past generation 3 Series cars)} a CULT CLASSIC.

The 3 Series is the stuff that legends are made of.

Its what propelled BMW into a luxury giant.

 

In 2015/2016, its soccer mom vehicles. MAINSTREAM soccer mom vehicles that drive the image

If you dont think that will be a detriment in the not so distant future, I cant help you.

 

 

 

It's not necessarily a good or bad thing. It's bad for their image, and I don't like it. But it's good for their profit margins and that's why businesses exist.

 

The 3 Series has grown in size, like all cars. It has gotten a bit too soft, especially in base form, and I hold that against BMW. It appears they took measures to at least partially rectify this with the F30 LCI. And knock it all you wan't but at least BMW still offers a proper manual across the board, along with numerous other options and accessories for enthusiasts.

 

As for the 2 Series, I have no idea why BMW hasn't used that platform to capitalize on the recent explosion of entry level luxury vehicles. It'd be the only proper RWD sedan in the game, after all. But that's neither here nor there.

 

BMW has seen sales drop in their core models mostly on account of competition within BMW's own lineup with SUV's. It sucks, but that's what the market is shifting towards. But it should be neither surprising, nor a criticism to be levied. 

Bottom line: if you have to explain what your trim level entails... it ain't luxury. It's a trim level.

 

 

 

 

So I guess...its a good thing for BMW to have their original bread and butter car...the 3 Series...lose ground to the X3...

And...today...the 3 Series aint even the 3 Series...its the 2 Series...but even that model is not carrying the flame of BMW's mantra, the Ultimate Driving Machine, the very essence and rasion d'etre of BMW.

 

Frisky...please...

 

BMW's bread and butter was the 3 Series.

BMW's soul..was the 3 Series. 

It was and still is _{(the past generation 3 Series cars)} a CULT CLASSIC.

The 3 Series is the stuff that legends are made of.

Its what propelled BMW into a luxury giant.

 

In 2015/2016, its soccer mom vehicles. MAINSTREAM soccer mom vehicles that drive the image

If you dont think that will be a detriment in the not so distant future, I cant help you.

 

 

 

It's not necessarily a good or bad thing. It's bad for their image, and I don't like it. But it's good for their profit margins and that's why businesses exist.

 

The 3 Series has grown in size, like all cars. It has gotten a bit too soft, especially in base form, and I hold that against BMW. It appears they took measures to at least partially rectify this with the F30 LCI. And knock it all you wan't but at least BMW still offers a proper manual across the board, along with numerous other options and accessories for enthusiasts.

 

As for the 2 Series, I have no idea why BMW hasn't used that platform to capitalize on the recent explosion of entry level luxury vehicles. It'd be the only proper RWD sedan in the game, after all. But that's neither here nor there.

 

BMW has seen sales drop in their core models mostly on account of competition within BMW's own lineup with SUV's. It sucks, but that's what the market is shifting towards. But it should be neither surprising, nor a criticism to be levied. 

 

I share ALL of your feelings in this post, Frisky.

With one exception. The last sentence:  "But it should be neither surprising, nor a criticism to be levied."

 

 

It is NOT a surprise...its a sound business judgement to go the SUV route...THAT is where the money is.

 

However, it SHOULD be a criticism when BMW has apparently took their eye off the ball. 

Using YOUR OWN observations:

 

 

- The 3 Series has grown in size, like all cars. It has gotten a bit too soft, especially in base form, and I hold that against BMW. It appears they took measures to at least partially rectify this with the F30 LCI. And knock it all you wan't but at least BMW still offers a proper manual across the board, along with numerous other options and accessories for enthusiasts.

 

- As for the 2 Series, I have no idea why BMW hasn't used that platform to capitalize on the recent explosion of entry level luxury vehicles. It'd be the only proper RWD sedan in the game, after all. But that's neither here nor there.

 

 

Ill repeat Frisky, in the not-so-distant future, if BMW does NOT rectify and offer cars that have stuff that legends are made of...then BMW will just be another run of the mill SUV company.  A BMW X6M  just does NOT pass muster.  Especially since Porsche and M-B and Cadillac all have their say in how luxury SUVs are to be marketed. NOT to mention Jaguar and Bentley and Rolls Royce...and NOT forgetting the SUV and CUV pioneers in GMC and Jeep and Toyota/Lexus. And new commers in Buick, Lincoln and quite possibly Genesis. In the 1980s and 1990s...it was BMW that DICTATED to the world what a sport coupe and sedan is and how it should be.

 

 

 

 

 

So I guess...its a good thing for BMW to have their original bread and butter car...the 3 Series...lose ground to the X3...

And...today...the 3 Series aint even the 3 Series...its the 2 Series...but even that model is not carrying the flame of BMW's mantra, the Ultimate Driving Machine, the very essence and rasion d'etre of BMW.

 

Frisky...please...

 

BMW's bread and butter was the 3 Series.

BMW's soul..was the 3 Series. 

It was and still is _{(the past generation 3 Series cars)} a CULT CLASSIC.

The 3 Series is the stuff that legends are made of.

Its what propelled BMW into a luxury giant.

 

In 2015/2016, its soccer mom vehicles. MAINSTREAM soccer mom vehicles that drive the image

If you dont think that will be a detriment in the not so distant future, I cant help you.

 

 

 

It's not necessarily a good or bad thing. It's bad for their image, and I don't like it. But it's good for their profit margins and that's why businesses exist.

 

The 3 Series has grown in size, like all cars. It has gotten a bit too soft, especially in base form, and I hold that against BMW. It appears they took measures to at least partially rectify this with the F30 LCI. And knock it all you wan't but at least BMW still offers a proper manual across the board, along with numerous other options and accessories for enthusiasts.

 

As for the 2 Series, I have no idea why BMW hasn't used that platform to capitalize on the recent explosion of entry level luxury vehicles. It'd be the only proper RWD sedan in the game, after all. But that's neither here nor there.

 

BMW has seen sales drop in their core models mostly on account of competition within BMW's own lineup with SUV's. It sucks, but that's what the market is shifting towards. But it should be neither surprising, nor a criticism to be levied. 

 

I share ALL of your feelings in this post, Frisky.

With one exception. The last sentence:  "But it should be neither surprising, nor a criticism to be levied."

 

 

It is NOT a surprise...its a sound business judgement to go the SUV route...THAT is where the money is.

 

However, it SHOULD be a criticism when BMW has apparently took their eye off the ball. 

Using YOUR OWN observations:

 

 

- The 3 Series has grown in size, like all cars. It has gotten a bit too soft, especially in base form, and I hold that against BMW. It appears they took measures to at least partially rectify this with the F30 LCI. And knock it all you wan't but at least BMW still offers a proper manual across the board, along with numerous other options and accessories for enthusiasts.

 

- As for the 2 Series, I have no idea why BMW hasn't used that platform to capitalize on the recent explosion of entry level luxury vehicles. It'd be the only proper RWD sedan in the game, after all. But that's neither here nor there.

 

 

Ill repeat Frisky, in the not-so-distant future, if BMW does NOT rectify and offer cars that have stuff that legends are made of...then BMW will just be another run of the mill SUV company.  A BMW X6M  just does NOT pass muster.  Especially since Porsche and M-B and Cadillac all have their say in how luxury SUVs are to be marketed. NOT to mention Jaguar and Bentley and Rolls Royce...and NOT forgetting the SUV and CUV pioneers in GMC and Jeep and Toyota/Lexus. And new commers in Buick, Lincoln and quite possibly Genesis. In the 1980s and 1990s...it was BMW that DICTATED to the world what a sport coupe and sedan is and how it should be.

 

 

 

I will clarify my quoted post that which you are misunderstanding.

 

 

Criticizing BMW for their fine tuning of those cars which are supposed to carry the BMW mantle- the 3 Series and 5 Series- is totally reasonable. As is BMW's failure to fully exploit the 2 Series name and refusal to enter certain market segments- a proper sports roadster, supercar, etc.

 

But the loss of sales to BMW's own SUV's isn't. Everyone is experiencing growth in SUV/CUV sales, and at this point is just seems par for the course. Cadillac's best seller is the XTS, after all. In other words, the 3 and 5 Series could be unanimously heralded as being the best driver's cars in their respective classes, and it likely wouldn't have a notable affect on their sales trends. Catering to enthusiasts isn't going to help their sales numbers. In all honesty, it could very well harm them. That said, I do think BMW is going overboard with their offerings. The X6 and X4 are bad enough, but the 3 and 5 GT are just answers to questions nobody is asking. Even Audi and MB aren't venturing into those waters.

 

As for the X6, while I don't like it, by all accounts it is a very good vehicle, and beats even Porsche at it's own game by offering superior performance and driving dynamics in comparison to the Cayenne. And let's not forget it was the X5 that really founded this segment and made it what it is in the first place. Without the success of it, we may very well not have gotten the bonkers M cars we got in early-mid 2000's. I don't think it's very shocking that a company that was primarily responsible for the proliferation of such vehicles in the first place would see a constant increase in their sales numbers to the point of encroaching on those traditional models' sales.

First off no Lexus or Cadillac SUV is on par with an X6M.  That is a near 600 hp crossover.

 

But let's look at some facts of percentage of car vs SUV sales among luxury brands.  I also took the X1 out of cars total and put it into SUV, because BMW counts it as a car, but I don't think it is, which actually lowers BMW's car %.

 

Acura         38.3% car    61.7% suv

Audi           58.3% car    41.7% suv

BMW          70.0% car   30.0% suv

Cadillac      40.2% car   58.8% suv

Infiniti         48.6% car   51.4% suv

Lexus         49.7% car   50.3% suv

Lincoln       37.3% car   62.7% suv

Mercedes   59.8% car  40.2% suv

 

So BMW is actually the most car heavy luxury brand, they have a long way to go to becoming an SUV brand.  Unlike Lincoln, Acura and Cadillac that are already SUV brands.

Yes, but Frisky...

 

Catering to the enthusiast is WHAT BMW IS ALL ABOUT!!!

 

Right now, they are catering to the everyday Average Joe...

Like I keep on saying...in the not so distant future...BMW will be an also-ran.

 

Like I said...Porsche and M-B and Cadillac and Bentley and Jaguar and Rolls Royce and Buick and Lincoln and Genesis and Toyota/Lexus will ALL be selling SUVs...mojo induced SUVs.

 

The BMW X6 aint out Porsching Porsche...the X6 is just SAVing the BMW lingo...the Acura ZDX copied and failed...nobody else is answering that question...and it does look like BMW has carved out a nice little niche for itself there....but like I said...the X6 is NOT enough to carry a brand through...

 

And the X5 did carve out this SAV niche, but tis the X6 that is carrying the flame, the X5 has  becoming a soccer mom car.  No different than a boring Lexus RX...and...the X5 has lost itself with the countless of other so called luxury SUVs out there from the various other SUV peddlers. And to boot...the Grand Cherokee from Jeep and its SRT version is the enthusiast SUV people lust for more so than an X5M...

 

Like I said...BMW is fast becoming irrelevant with the folk that make brands legendary in nature...and that is THE ENTHUSIAST...all for FAST MONEY...

BMW is falling in a pitfall...and I DO understand the business aspect of it...but it is a pitfall non the less that has at least some consequence to it...

 

Porsche is still putting fire and emotion to their car that represents them the most...the 911.

Remember Frisky, that Porsche is dialing down the tech, the power, the weight, the AWD in at least one trim of the 911 because they realized that they have muddled the identity of it...and a REAL MANUAL TRANSMISSION WILL ALSO BE STANDARD...

 

So...BMW if they dont act fast, they will do damage to that image they have....and that is all Im saying.

First off no Lexus or Cadillac SUV is on par with an X6M.  That is a near 600 hp crossover.

 

But let's look at some facts of percentage of car vs SUV sales among luxury brands.  I also took the X1 out of cars total and put it into SUV, because BMW counts it as a car, but I don't think it is, which actually lowers BMW's car %.

 

Acura         38.3% car    61.7% suv

Audi           58.3% car    41.7% suv

BMW          70.0% car   30.0% suv

Cadillac      40.2% car   58.8% suv

Infiniti         48.6% car   51.4% suv

Lexus         49.7% car   50.3% suv

Lincoln       37.3% car   62.7% suv

Mercedes   59.8% car  40.2% suv

 

So BMW is actually the most car heavy luxury brand, they have a long way to go to becoming an SUV brand.  Unlike Lincoln, Acura and Cadillac that are already SUV brands.

An ESCALADE is UNTOUCHABLE in the realm of cachet, and NO AMOUNT OF BMW X6M HORSEPOWER comes close to that Cadillac in cachet...

Like I said...

 

Porsche, M-B, Cadillac, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Land Rover, Jaguar and others HAVE A SAY HOW SUVs WILL be MARKETED...

And the X6M will BE LOST in that whirlwind of SUV madness...

 

BMW was the one to DICTATE what is a LUXURY SPORT SEDAN...but with SUVs...BMW is NO WHERE NEAR the BENCH MARK!!!

Yes, but Frisky...

 

Catering to the enthusiast is WHAT BMW IS ALL ABOUT!!!

 

Right now, they are catering to the everyday Average Joe...

Like I keep on saying...in the not so distant future...BMW will be an also-ran.

 

Like I said...Porsche and M-B and Cadillac and Bentley and Jaguar and Rolls Royce and Buick and Lincoln and Genesis and Toyota/Lexus will ALL be selling SUVs...mojo induced SUVs.

 

The BMW X6 aint out Porsching Porsche...the X6 is just SAVing the BMW lingo...the Acura ZDX copied and failed...nobody else is answering that question...and it does look like BMW has carved out a nice little niche for itself there....but like I said...the X6 is NOT enough to carry a brand through...

 

And the X5 did carve out this SAV niche, but tis the X6 that is carrying the flame, the X5 has  becoming a soccer mom car.  No different than a boring Lexus RX...and...the X5 has lost itself with the countless of other so called luxury SUVs out there from the various other SUV peddlers. And to boot...the Grand Cherokee from Jeep and its SRT version is the enthusiast SUV people lust for more so than an X5M...

 

Like I said...BMW is fast becoming irrelevant with the folk that make brands legendary in nature...and that is THE ENTHUSIAST...all for FAST MONEY...

BMW is falling in a pitfall...and I DO understand the business aspect of it...but it is a pitfall non the less that has at least some consequence to it...

 

Porsche is still putting fire and emotion to their car that represents them the most...the 911.

Remember Frisky, that Porsche is dialing down the tech, the power, the weight, the AWD in at least one trim of the 911 because they realized that they have muddled the identity of it...and a REAL MANUAL TRANSMISSION WILL ALSO BE STANDARD...

 

So...BMW if they dont act fast, they will do damage to that image they have....and that is all Im saying.

I have never been a BMW fan, their styling never really did anything for me, but I do respect the E39, the V10 M5, the E46 M3, the F30 3-series and inline sixes.  I can respect their products, but I would never buy one, they aren't my cup of tea.

 

That being said, I have to defend them here.  In 2015, 58% of Porsche sales were SUVs.  This was once a sports car brand that is on its way to having 2/3rds of it sales trucks.  BMW still has 70% of its sales volume from cars.  That is huge percentage, as all the non-germane luxury brands are under 50%.

 

As far as the X5 goes, it is a rear drive platform, you can get a 450 hp V8 or 580 hp V8, or whatever the M has.  The Acura, Lincoln, Lexus crossovers and the SRX are front drive products, basically family sedans on stilts with a V6 out of a Cam-Cord.  They are garden variety stuff.

 

I am not sure what is "mojo induced" about any Lexus or Acura SUV, but BMW is making an X7 SUV with optional 600 hp V12 power.  Will a 600 hp V12 be enough mojo for the suv segment?

 

First off no Lexus or Cadillac SUV is on par with an X6M.  That is a near 600 hp crossover.

 

But let's look at some facts of percentage of car vs SUV sales among luxury brands.  I also took the X1 out of cars total and put it into SUV, because BMW counts it as a car, but I don't think it is, which actually lowers BMW's car %.

 

Acura         38.3% car    61.7% suv

Audi           58.3% car    41.7% suv

BMW          70.0% car   30.0% suv

Cadillac      40.2% car   58.8% suv

Infiniti         48.6% car   51.4% suv

Lexus         49.7% car   50.3% suv

Lincoln       37.3% car   62.7% suv

Mercedes   59.8% car  40.2% suv

 

So BMW is actually the most car heavy luxury brand, they have a long way to go to becoming an SUV brand.  Unlike Lincoln, Acura and Cadillac that are already SUV brands.

An ESCALADE is UNTOUCHABLE in the realm of cachet, and NO AMOUNT OF BMW X6M HORSEPOWER comes close to that Cadillac in cachet...

Like I said...

 

Porsche, M-B, Cadillac, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Land Rover, Jaguar and others HAVE A SAY HOW SUVs WILL be MARKETED...

And the X6M will BE LOST in that whirlwind of SUV madness...

 

BMW was the one to DICTATE what is a LUXURY SPORT SEDAN...but with SUVs...BMW is NO WHERE NEAR the BENCH MARK!!!

 

You realize the X6M is like the size of a Cadillac XT5 or Lexus RX right?  It is not a full size vehicle, but as I just posted there is a full size X7 SUV coming.  

 

And who ever said BMW was a benchmark of SUVs?  SUVs are 30% of BMW sales.  What is sort of scary is if their car sales stay the same, but SUV sales rise, they could be at 400,000 units a year in the near future.  

 

I don't know that the Escalade is so "untouchable".  It has cache, but it built a lot of that in the early to mid 2000s when there were few competitors.  Aside from the GL, and there could be a Maybach GL, you now have Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Lamborghini getting into SUVs.  Those are heavyweight names.  Land Rover is coming back pretty strong.  And the Escalade is sill built on a Chevy truck frame.  I think in the 2020s the Escalade will have to adapt and evolve as more and more better handling, more luxurious and more fuel efficient large SUVs hit the market.

 

Yes, but Frisky...

 

Catering to the enthusiast is WHAT BMW IS ALL ABOUT!!!

 

Right now, they are catering to the everyday Average Joe...

Like I keep on saying...in the not so distant future...BMW will be an also-ran.

 

Like I said...Porsche and M-B and Cadillac and Bentley and Jaguar and Rolls Royce and Buick and Lincoln and Genesis and Toyota/Lexus will ALL be selling SUVs...mojo induced SUVs.

 

The BMW X6 aint out Porsching Porsche...the X6 is just SAVing the BMW lingo...the Acura ZDX copied and failed...nobody else is answering that question...and it does look like BMW has carved out a nice little niche for itself there....but like I said...the X6 is NOT enough to carry a brand through...

 

And the X5 did carve out this SAV niche, but tis the X6 that is carrying the flame, the X5 has  becoming a soccer mom car.  No different than a boring Lexus RX...and...the X5 has lost itself with the countless of other so called luxury SUVs out there from the various other SUV peddlers. And to boot...the Grand Cherokee from Jeep and its SRT version is the enthusiast SUV people lust for more so than an X5M...

 

Like I said...BMW is fast becoming irrelevant with the folk that make brands legendary in nature...and that is THE ENTHUSIAST...all for FAST MONEY...

BMW is falling in a pitfall...and I DO understand the business aspect of it...but it is a pitfall non the less that has at least some consequence to it...

 

Porsche is still putting fire and emotion to their car that represents them the most...the 911.

Remember Frisky, that Porsche is dialing down the tech, the power, the weight, the AWD in at least one trim of the 911 because they realized that they have muddled the identity of it...and a REAL MANUAL TRANSMISSION WILL ALSO BE STANDARD...

 

So...BMW if they dont act fast, they will do damage to that image they have....and that is all Im saying.

I have never been a BMW fan, their styling never really did anything for me, but I do respect the E39, the V10 M5, the E46 M3, the F30 3-series and inline sixes.  I can respect their products, but I would never buy one, they aren't my cup of tea.

 

That being said, I have to defend them here.  In 2015, 58% of Porsche sales were SUVs.  This was once a sports car brand that is on its way to having 2/3rds of it sales trucks.  BMW still has 70% of its sales volume from cars.  That is huge percentage, as all the non-germane luxury brands are under 50%.

 

As far as the X5 goes, it is a rear drive platform, you can get a 450 hp V8 or 580 hp V8, or whatever the M has.  The Acura, Lincoln, Lexus crossovers and the SRX are front drive products, basically family sedans on stilts with a V6 out of a Cam-Cord.  They are garden variety stuff.

 

I am not sure what is "mojo induced" about any Lexus or Acura SUV, but BMW is making an X7 SUV with optional 600 hp V12 power.  Will a 600 hp V12 be enough mojo for the suv segment?

 

The only reason BMW's CUV percentage isn't higher is because it is up against the five or six variations of EACH car model (3,4,5,6,7 series have more variations than you can shake a stick at) so those percentages you are touting are way misleading.

 

Finally, the X5 was BMWs best seller last month and was second in yearly sales to only the multi-variant 3 series. What do you think is going to happen to that CUV percentage when the X7 comes out?

Edited January 10, 2016 by surreal1272

 

 

First off no Lexus or Cadillac SUV is on par with an X6M.  That is a near 600 hp crossover.

 

But let's look at some facts of percentage of car vs SUV sales among luxury brands.  I also took the X1 out of cars total and put it into SUV, because BMW counts it as a car, but I don't think it is, which actually lowers BMW's car %.

 

Acura         38.3% car    61.7% suv

Audi           58.3% car    41.7% suv

BMW          70.0% car   30.0% suv

Cadillac      40.2% car   58.8% suv

Infiniti         48.6% car   51.4% suv

Lexus         49.7% car   50.3% suv

Lincoln       37.3% car   62.7% suv

Mercedes   59.8% car  40.2% suv

 

So BMW is actually the most car heavy luxury brand, they have a long way to go to becoming an SUV brand.  Unlike Lincoln, Acura and Cadillac that are already SUV brands.

An ESCALADE is UNTOUCHABLE in the realm of cachet, and NO AMOUNT OF BMW X6M HORSEPOWER comes close to that Cadillac in cachet...

Like I said...

 

Porsche, M-B, Cadillac, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Land Rover, Jaguar and others HAVE A SAY HOW SUVs WILL be MARKETED...

And the X6M will BE LOST in that whirlwind of SUV madness...

 

BMW was the one to DICTATE what is a LUXURY SPORT SEDAN...but with SUVs...BMW is NO WHERE NEAR the BENCH MARK!!!

 

You realize the X6M is like the size of a Cadillac XT5 or Lexus RX right?  It is not a full size vehicle, but as I just posted there is a full size X7 SUV coming.  

 

And who ever said BMW was a benchmark of SUVs?  SUVs are 30% of BMW sales.  What is sort of scary is if their car sales stay the same, but SUV sales rise, they could be at 400,000 units a year in the near future.  

 

I don't know that the Escalade is so "untouchable".  It has cache, but it built a lot of that in the early to mid 2000s when there were few competitors.  Aside from the GL, and there could be a Maybach GL, you now have Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Lamborghini getting into SUVs.  Those are heavyweight names.  Land Rover is coming back pretty strong.  And the Escalade is sill built on a Chevy truck frame.  I think in the 2020s the Escalade will have to adapt and evolve as more and more better handling, more luxurious and more fuel efficient large SUVs hit the market.

 

Who cares? Point is that the Escalade carries plenty of cachet and many would prefer it over the BMW. BTW, you seem to overlook that it is the best selling full size luxury SUV out there. We have talked about this before yet you keep bringing up this nonsense ladened criticism of the Escalade.

The Escalade is the one vehicle for which no other automaker (with the possible exception of Land Rover) has no answer. It has been the de facto flagship of the brand for a decade now.

 

 

Yes, but Frisky...

 

Catering to the enthusiast is WHAT BMW IS ALL ABOUT!!!

 

Right now, they are catering to the everyday Average Joe...

Like I keep on saying...in the not so distant future...BMW will be an also-ran.

 

Like I said...Porsche and M-B and Cadillac and Bentley and Jaguar and Rolls Royce and Buick and Lincoln and Genesis and Toyota/Lexus will ALL be selling SUVs...mojo induced SUVs.

 

The BMW X6 aint out Porsching Porsche...the X6 is just SAVing the BMW lingo...the Acura ZDX copied and failed...nobody else is answering that question...and it does look like BMW has carved out a nice little niche for itself there....but like I said...the X6 is NOT enough to carry a brand through...

 

And the X5 did carve out this SAV niche, but tis the X6 that is carrying the flame, the X5 has  becoming a soccer mom car.  No different than a boring Lexus RX...and...the X5 has lost itself with the countless of other so called luxury SUVs out there from the various other SUV peddlers. And to boot...the Grand Cherokee from Jeep and its SRT version is the enthusiast SUV people lust for more so than an X5M...

 

Like I said...BMW is fast becoming irrelevant with the folk that make brands legendary in nature...and that is THE ENTHUSIAST...all for FAST MONEY...

BMW is falling in a pitfall...and I DO understand the business aspect of it...but it is a pitfall non the less that has at least some consequence to it...

 

Porsche is still putting fire and emotion to their car that represents them the most...the 911.

Remember Frisky, that Porsche is dialing down the tech, the power, the weight, the AWD in at least one trim of the 911 because they realized that they have muddled the identity of it...and a REAL MANUAL TRANSMISSION WILL ALSO BE STANDARD...

 

So...BMW if they dont act fast, they will do damage to that image they have....and that is all Im saying.

I have never been a BMW fan, their styling never really did anything for me, but I do respect the E39, the V10 M5, the E46 M3, the F30 3-series and inline sixes.  I can respect their products, but I would never buy one, they aren't my cup of tea.

 

That being said, I have to defend them here.  In 2015, 58% of Porsche sales were SUVs.  This was once a sports car brand that is on its way to having 2/3rds of it sales trucks.  BMW still has 70% of its sales volume from cars.  That is huge percentage, as all the non-germane luxury brands are under 50%.

 

As far as the X5 goes, it is a rear drive platform, you can get a 450 hp V8 or 580 hp V8, or whatever the M has.  The Acura, Lincoln, Lexus crossovers and the SRX are front drive products, basically family sedans on stilts with a V6 out of a Cam-Cord.  They are garden variety stuff.

 

I am not sure what is "mojo induced" about any Lexus or Acura SUV, but BMW is making an X7 SUV with optional 600 hp V12 power.  Will a 600 hp V12 be enough mojo for the suv segment?

 

The only reason BMW's CUV percentage isn't higher is because it is up against the five or six variations of EACH car model (3,4,5,6,7 series have more variations than you can shake a stick at) so those percentages you are touting are way misleading.

 

Finally, the X5 was BMWs best seller last month and was second in yearly sales to only the multi-variant 3 series. What do you think is going to happen to that CUV percentage when the X7 comes out?

 

 

So before the argument was made that BMW sells too many SUVs and that was bad.  Bad for image to sell SUVs as a luxury brand.

 

Then as it turns out they sell 70% cars and only 30% SUVs (the most car heavy luxury brand there is).  Yet that is still bad because the X5, a high margin vehicle outsells a 3-series which is a bottom level vehicle.  

 

However at Mercedes the C-class, a sedan outsells the GLE, but that is also bad because the C-class costs less than the GLE.

 

Then it seems that many more people want an Escalade over a BMW, yet BMW doesn't offer a full size SUV.  So until the X7 is on sale we don't really know.   And the X5 outsells the Escalade, because as was established the X5 is the #1 selling BMW for 1 month.  Maybe the X7 will sell well, maybe it is too late to the game.  Personally I think the X7 will gain some traction in the market place, and that segment isn't really growing so it will more than likely steal from established players.

 

 

 

Yes, but Frisky...

 

Catering to the enthusiast is WHAT BMW IS ALL ABOUT!!!

 

Right now, they are catering to the everyday Average Joe...

Like I keep on saying...in the not so distant future...BMW will be an also-ran.

 

Like I said...Porsche and M-B and Cadillac and Bentley and Jaguar and Rolls Royce and Buick and Lincoln and Genesis and Toyota/Lexus will ALL be selling SUVs...mojo induced SUVs.

 

The BMW X6 aint out Porsching Porsche...the X6 is just SAVing the BMW lingo...the Acura ZDX copied and failed...nobody else is answering that question...and it does look like BMW has carved out a nice little niche for itself there....but like I said...the X6 is NOT enough to carry a brand through...

 

And the X5 did carve out this SAV niche, but tis the X6 that is carrying the flame, the X5 has  becoming a soccer mom car.  No different than a boring Lexus RX...and...the X5 has lost itself with the countless of other so called luxury SUVs out there from the various other SUV peddlers. And to boot...the Grand Cherokee from Jeep and its SRT version is the enthusiast SUV people lust for more so than an X5M...

 

Like I said...BMW is fast becoming irrelevant with the folk that make brands legendary in nature...and that is THE ENTHUSIAST...all for FAST MONEY...

BMW is falling in a pitfall...and I DO understand the business aspect of it...but it is a pitfall non the less that has at least some consequence to it...

 

Porsche is still putting fire and emotion to their car that represents them the most...the 911.

Remember Frisky, that Porsche is dialing down the tech, the power, the weight, the AWD in at least one trim of the 911 because they realized that they have muddled the identity of it...and a REAL MANUAL TRANSMISSION WILL ALSO BE STANDARD...

 

So...BMW if they dont act fast, they will do damage to that image they have....and that is all Im saying.

I have never been a BMW fan, their styling never really did anything for me, but I do respect the E39, the V10 M5, the E46 M3, the F30 3-series and inline sixes.  I can respect their products, but I would never buy one, they aren't my cup of tea.

 

That being said, I have to defend them here.  In 2015, 58% of Porsche sales were SUVs.  This was once a sports car brand that is on its way to having 2/3rds of it sales trucks.  BMW still has 70% of its sales volume from cars.  That is huge percentage, as all the non-germane luxury brands are under 50%.

 

As far as the X5 goes, it is a rear drive platform, you can get a 450 hp V8 or 580 hp V8, or whatever the M has.  The Acura, Lincoln, Lexus crossovers and the SRX are front drive products, basically family sedans on stilts with a V6 out of a Cam-Cord.  They are garden variety stuff.

 

I am not sure what is "mojo induced" about any Lexus or Acura SUV, but BMW is making an X7 SUV with optional 600 hp V12 power.  Will a 600 hp V12 be enough mojo for the suv segment?

 

The only reason BMW's CUV percentage isn't higher is because it is up against the five or six variations of EACH car model (3,4,5,6,7 series have more variations than you can shake a stick at) so those percentages you are touting are way misleading.

 

Finally, the X5 was BMWs best seller last month and was second in yearly sales to only the multi-variant 3 series. What do you think is going to happen to that CUV percentage when the X7 comes out?

 

 

So before the argument was made that BMW sells too many SUVs and that was bad.  Bad for image to sell SUVs as a luxury brand.

 

Then as it turns out they sell 70% cars and only 30% SUVs (the most car heavy luxury brand there is).  Yet that is still bad because the X5, a high margin vehicle outsells a 3-series which is a bottom level vehicle.  

 

However at Mercedes the C-class, a sedan outsells the GLE, but that is also bad because the C-class costs less than the GLE.

 

Then it seems that many more people want an Escalade over a BMW, yet BMW doesn't offer a full size SUV.  So until the X7 is on sale we don't really know.   And the X5 outsells the Escalade, because as was established the X5 is the #1 selling BMW for 1 month.  Maybe the X7 will sell well, maybe it is too late to the game.  Personally I think the X7 will gain some traction in the market place, and that segment isn't really growing so it will more than likely steal from established players.

 

I never made any argument about BMW and their CUVs (they are not SUVs) so maybe you need to take that argument up with those who brought it up. I am merely bringing up the reasons why their percentage is as low as it is and why that won't last. Oh and the X5 outselling the Escalade means diddly squat since they do no compete with each other, hence the arrival of the X7. Did you somehow forget that in yet another attempt by you to move the bar? Geez.

I did mention the X5 doesn't compete with the Escalade.  

 

What percentage won't hold up?  the 70% of their sales are cars?  I don't think that will hold up either, as crossovers become more popular and they bring out the X7, their crossovers sales will rise.  I don't think their car sales will drop though, they might well 60% car and 40% crossover on a 400,000 unit total.

 

The X7 will mostly steal sales from the Escalade, GLS, Range Rover, Navigator and the 39 people a month that buy a Lexus LX570 might just get an X7 instead.

I did mention the X5 doesn't compete with the Escalade.  

 

What percentage won't hold up?  the 70% of their sales are cars?  I don't think that will hold up either, as crossovers become more popular and they bring out the X7, their crossovers sales will rise.  I don't think their car sales will drop though, they might well 60% car and 40% crossover on a 400,000 unit total.

 

The X7 will mostly steal sales from the Escalade, GLS, Range Rover, Navigator and the 39 people a month that buy a Lexus LX570 might just get an X7 instead.

Then why bring it up? Because you are trying to move that bar again, that's why. I have nothing ore to say about since you can't keep your argument straight when you have been called out. Enough space has been wasted on the subject.

Lost amid all the hype and the hoopla is that GM's combined sales (Cadillac and Buick) total roughly 400,000 units.

Which makes GM the car company that leads the way in both luxury vehicles and pickup trucks.

Now THAT is what you call versatility.

Lost amid all the hype and the hoopla is that GM's combined sales (Cadillac and Buick) total roughly 400,000 units.

Which makes GM the car company that leads the way in both luxury vehicles and pickup trucks.

Now THAT is what you call versatility.

 

 

No doubt. Don't forget the Denali brand.. make that about 550K sales of luxury vehicles covering ranges from Volvo to BMW and everything in between.

 

Yes, but Frisky...

 

Catering to the enthusiast is WHAT BMW IS ALL ABOUT!!!

 

Right now, they are catering to the everyday Average Joe...

Like I keep on saying...in the not so distant future...BMW will be an also-ran.

 

Like I said...Porsche and M-B and Cadillac and Bentley and Jaguar and Rolls Royce and Buick and Lincoln and Genesis and Toyota/Lexus will ALL be selling SUVs...mojo induced SUVs.

 

The BMW X6 aint out Porsching Porsche...the X6 is just SAVing the BMW lingo...the Acura ZDX copied and failed...nobody else is answering that question...and it does look like BMW has carved out a nice little niche for itself there....but like I said...the X6 is NOT enough to carry a brand through...

 

And the X5 did carve out this SAV niche, but tis the X6 that is carrying the flame, the X5 has  becoming a soccer mom car.  No different than a boring Lexus RX...and...the X5 has lost itself with the countless of other so called luxury SUVs out there from the various other SUV peddlers. And to boot...the Grand Cherokee from Jeep and its SRT version is the enthusiast SUV people lust for more so than an X5M...

 

Like I said...BMW is fast becoming irrelevant with the folk that make brands legendary in nature...and that is THE ENTHUSIAST...all for FAST MONEY...

BMW is falling in a pitfall...and I DO understand the business aspect of it...but it is a pitfall non the less that has at least some consequence to it...

 

Porsche is still putting fire and emotion to their car that represents them the most...the 911.

Remember Frisky, that Porsche is dialing down the tech, the power, the weight, the AWD in at least one trim of the 911 because they realized that they have muddled the identity of it...and a REAL MANUAL TRANSMISSION WILL ALSO BE STANDARD...

 

So...BMW if they dont act fast, they will do damage to that image they have....and that is all Im saying.

 

 

Catering to enthusiasts, unfortunately, is NOT what BMW is all about. It's NEVER been what they were all about. Out of their desire to build products that surpassed the competition, and as a result of their motorsports development, they just happened to build cars that generally had the best driving dynamics in comparison to their peers. Building cars that are best in segment and building cars for enthusiasts aren't 100% analogous. If BMW existed solely to cater to enthusiasts, they'd offer nothing but sports cars and supercars. Instead, it can be argued they offer neither.

 

Your suggestion that BMW will become an 'also-ran' is absolutely absurd. They continue to beat out competitors in sales, which obviously means it is a brand that is desirable to a lot of people. The X6/X5 M have both beat out the Cayenne Turbo in comparison tests. They offer superior driving dynamics, better performance, and a fresher package to top it off. Not to mention they're greatly cheaper. If you think the SRT GC remotely competes with the X M's, or is aspired to by enthusiasts anywhere near as much, you're flat out delusional.

 

Porsche, as brought up by another poster, is posting far greater sales numbers with vehicles that don't adhere to the brand's core mantra than what BMW is. Enthusiasts piss and moan about them just as much, if not more, than they do about BMW. Has BMW run off some of it's fan base with cars that aren't clearly class leading? Sure. But it's gotten as bad as it's going to get, and they're still doing fine.

 

Any time BMW is brought up, you're all doom and gloom about them and their future prospects. They're flawed to be sure, but all makers are. I'm on the BMW boards every day, and there is no shortage of enthusiasts that are still loyal to the brand, understand their business model, and buy their new products. The way YOU personally see the brand doesn't define them, nor is it conclusive proof of the brand's demise or failure. 

Lost amid all the hype and the hoopla is that GM's combined sales (Cadillac and Buick) total roughly 400,000 units.

Which makes GM the car company that leads the way in both luxury vehicles and pickup trucks.

Now THAT is what you call versatility.

 

400,000 units combined from two brands isn't all that impressive, sorry. And that's not even questioning how many vehicles among those could properly be considered 'luxury'. I mean just earlier, another poster was ripping on the CLA. Last time I checked, you can buy a Buick Verano with the lame duck 2.4, a Regal with a virtually spartan interior, so on and so forth. 

 

Lost amid all the hype and the hoopla is that GM's combined sales (Cadillac and Buick) total roughly 400,000 units.

Which makes GM the car company that leads the way in both luxury vehicles and pickup trucks.

Now THAT is what you call versatility.

 

400,000 units combined from two brands isn't all that impressive, sorry. And that's not even questioning how many vehicles among those could properly be considered 'luxury'. I mean just earlier, another poster was ripping on the CLA. Last time I checked, you can buy a Buick Verano with the lame duck 2.4, a Regal with a virtually spartan interior, so on and so forth. 

 

 

 

and truly U can buy a BMW 320i, with its 0-60 in 6.7, and get seriously surprised by a 2016 Chevy Volt 0-60 in 7.1 Seconds. Not to mention.. have U been in a BMW 320i??? LMFAO. A Lady friend of mine was duped into buying one.. talk about buyer's remorse and a constant phone call of "how can I break the lease without losing too much." Weak sauce interior... no real options. Eff BMW. 

 

 

Lost amid all the hype and the hoopla is that GM's combined sales (Cadillac and Buick) total roughly 400,000 units.

Which makes GM the car company that leads the way in both luxury vehicles and pickup trucks.

Now THAT is what you call versatility.

 

400,000 units combined from two brands isn't all that impressive, sorry. And that's not even questioning how many vehicles among those could properly be considered 'luxury'. I mean just earlier, another poster was ripping on the CLA. Last time I checked, you can buy a Buick Verano with the lame duck 2.4, a Regal with a virtually spartan interior, so on and so forth. 

 

 

 

and truly U can buy a BMW 320i, with its 0-60 in 6.7, and get seriously surprised by a 2016 Chevy Volt 0-60 in 7.1 seconds. Not to mention.. have U been in a BMW 320i??? LMFAO. A Lady friend of mine was duped into buying one.. talk about buyer's remorse and a constant phone call of "how can I break the lease without losing too much." Weak sauce interior... no real options. Eff BMW. 

 

 

A BMW 320i is a far, far better car than a 2.5 ATS. It's the same old vitriol from you as always.

 

 

 

Lost amid all the hype and the hoopla is that GM's combined sales (Cadillac and Buick) total roughly 400,000 units.

Which makes GM the car company that leads the way in both luxury vehicles and pickup trucks.

Now THAT is what you call versatility.

 

400,000 units combined from two brands isn't all that impressive, sorry. And that's not even questioning how many vehicles among those could properly be considered 'luxury'. I mean just earlier, another poster was ripping on the CLA. Last time I checked, you can buy a Buick Verano with the lame duck 2.4, a Regal with a virtually spartan interior, so on and so forth. 

 

 

 

and truly U can buy a BMW 320i, with its 0-60 in 6.7, and get seriously surprised by a 2016 Chevy Volt 0-60 in 7.1 seconds. Not to mention.. have U been in a BMW 320i??? LMFAO. A Lady friend of mine was duped into buying one.. talk about buyer's remorse and a constant phone call of "how can I break the lease without losing too much." Weak sauce interior... no real options. Eff BMW. 

 

 

A BMW 320i is a far, far better car than a 2.5 ATS. It's the same old vitriol from you as always.

 

 

 

First and foremost I stand by my comment. I find it hard to believe that U have been in a new 2.5L ATS coupled to the M5T 8Speed. It actually moves quite nice.. with nice NVH. That being said.. I'll be the first to say that I'd buy NEITHER of these cars with their bottom engines when there are better choices above. Same engine as the 328, but detuned makes it a dull girl

 

 

 

 

Lost amid all the hype and the hoopla is that GM's combined sales (Cadillac and Buick) total roughly 400,000 units.

Which makes GM the car company that leads the way in both luxury vehicles and pickup trucks.

Now THAT is what you call versatility.

 

400,000 units combined from two brands isn't all that impressive, sorry. And that's not even questioning how many vehicles among those could properly be considered 'luxury'. I mean just earlier, another poster was ripping on the CLA. Last time I checked, you can buy a Buick Verano with the lame duck 2.4, a Regal with a virtually spartan interior, so on and so forth. 

 

 

 

and truly U can buy a BMW 320i, with its 0-60 in 6.7, and get seriously surprised by a 2016 Chevy Volt 0-60 in 7.1 seconds. Not to mention.. have U been in a BMW 320i??? LMFAO. A Lady friend of mine was duped into buying one.. talk about buyer's remorse and a constant phone call of "how can I break the lease without losing too much." Weak sauce interior... no real options. Eff BMW. 

 

 

A BMW 320i is a far, far better car than a 2.5 ATS. It's the same old vitriol from you as always.

 

 

 

First and foremost I stand by my comment. I find it hard to believe that U have been in a new 2.5L ATS coupled to the M5T 8Speed. It actually moves quite nice.. with nice NVH. That being said.. I'll be the first to say that I'd buy NEITHER of these cars with their bottom engines when there are better choices above. Same engine as the 328, but detuned makes it a dull girl

 

 

Not one with the 8AT, but a 6AT'er. It was a boring dog. Take away the guts of the higher trim levels, and you're left with is that cramped interior and maddening CUE. Hard pass. At least you can get a Track Pkg and 6MT with the 320i. And with a tune, it makes near 328i power levels. It does have smaller brakes and a more restrictive exhaust though. There are also a few other components that prevent it from being able to pick up power as well as the 328.

If BMW only made enthusiast sports cars they'd be like Lotus. You have to build products that appeal to the masses and BMW still has M models and track packages and CSI lightweight models and things for enthusiasts.

If we are counting Buick and Cadillac together you'd have to add Mini to BMW. A lot of those Minis cost more than a Verano or Encore. I wouldn't call Mini or Buick a luxury brand though.

And yes Cadillac should use word names. At least for sedans, crossover buyers seem to like alphabet soup.

 

 

 

Not one with the 8AT, but a 6AT'er. It was a boring dog. Take away the guts of the higher trim levels, and you're left with is that cramped interior and maddening CUE. Hard pass. At least you can get a Track Pkg and 6MT with the 320i. And with a tune, it makes near 328i power levels. It does have smaller brakes and a more restrictive exhaust though. There are also a few other components that prevent it from being able to pick up power as well as the 328.

 

 

 

 

First U come at me in a way that was unnecessary... especially since I was talking about the car.. not U.

 

Second.. and here is the most important part if U can ever get past the BS.. WE AGREE ON A BUNCH ON STUFF 90% of the time. 

 

A Tune??? If U are gonna get a tune on the 320i U might as well get the 328i. The difference in price is about $5K.. and that is a very small amount in terms of Financing or Leasing. Furthermore HOW MUCH IS THAT TUNE??? Because it would have to be a bargain basement price in order to justify all the other things one has to upgrade to get to the 328i they could have just bought for $5K more.

 

As to the 2.5L. Boring dog... I would characteristic any car in this class as that after hopping out of the VSeries model.. or in my case, the day I drive the new 2.5L 8Speed.. my Vette. Its all about perspective, in both brands. No one such as U or me are gonna normally walk into a BMW or Cadillac dealer and buy a 2.5L as a DD expecting it to pull off daredevil tricks like Evel Knievil, but I'll be the first to tell U that the 8speed tends to wake that lil bitch up.. just enough to be noticed. And despite the humble engine, the tuning of the chassis is quite up to snuff to make most feel satisfied. AGAIN.. I personally would opt for the 3.6L or 3.6LTT, no different than I would opt for the 335i or M3. 

 

Lastly.. if CUE is maddening to anyone then that person must be ready or a strait-jacket just dealing with their daily use of the IPhone or Android. The biggest gripe I've ever heard about CUE was that it lacks buttons. That's it. That's all. Nothing else. My solution.. use the effin Voice Control or BUTTONS on the steering wheel

If we are counting Buick and Cadillac together you'd have to add Mini to BMW. A lot of those Minis cost more than a Verano or Encore. I wouldn't call Mini or Buick a luxury brand though.

 

 

 

 

Mini is hardly a luxury brand. They are a niche brand that produces cars that weren't originally intended for their philosophy. At best I put them on the same level as Subaru.

 

 

 

 

And yes Cadillac should use word names. At least for sedans, crossover buyers seem to like alphabet soup.

 

 

and apparently so do Benz buyers.. since their entire line-up has a plethora of confusing alphabets and numbers to denote... WHAT AGAIN?

 

 

The ML is the new G.. what??? The CL is now the...Scoupe???

 

the AMG CLA 45??? With that many characters they could have just spelled something for Godsake

 

 

 

Lost amid all the hype and the hoopla is that GM's combined sales (Cadillac and Buick) total roughly 400,000 units.

Which makes GM the car company that leads the way in both luxury vehicles and pickup trucks.

Now THAT is what you call versatility.

 

400,000 units combined from two brands isn't all that impressive, sorry. And that's not even questioning how many vehicles among those could properly be considered 'luxury'. I mean just earlier, another poster was ripping on the CLA. Last time I checked, you can buy a Buick Verano with the lame duck 2.4, a Regal with a virtually spartan interior, so on and so forth. 

 

 

 

and truly U can buy a BMW 320i, with its 0-60 in 6.7, and get seriously surprised by a 2016 Chevy Volt 0-60 in 7.1 seconds. Not to mention.. have U been in a BMW 320i??? LMFAO. A Lady friend of mine was duped into buying one.. talk about buyer's remorse and a constant phone call of "how can I break the lease without losing too much." Weak sauce interior... no real options. Eff BMW. 

 

 

A BMW 320i is a far, far better car than a 2.5 ATS. It's the same old vitriol from you as always.

 

No offense Frisky but how is his support of Cadillac any different from your support of BMW? That last remark was simply uncalled for.