Pontiac should use the Legacy platform

[LosAngeles]

Is GM like Ford, in which a division has the option to deviate away from what the rest of the company is using platformwise? Like when Ford USA stuck to using C170 out here instead of switching to the new Focus chassis used under the Mazda3 and Volvo S40....or Chevy never using the H-body, instead using the W-body for the Impala. My thought was that Pontiac should use worldwide partner Subaru's Legacy platform for the G6's replacement, if the Epsilon II doesn't get the promised AWD. But of course, unlike the Saab 9-2X's use of the WRX's whole body aft of the nose, Pontiac would style its own body, and maybe even be a bit bigger. Is there flexibility for longitudinal engine mounting, and/or to use a V- or straight-configured piston engine instead of the flat-4 used in Subarus? I think this next Pontiac should use the HF or Atlas 5 for its base, instead of fours of any kind. The roofline should be pulled up and back enough to clear adult back seat passengers. There should be a wagon, coupe, and fastback sedan instead of the typical notchback 4-door. The AWD should be standard (satisfying snobs of both drivelines). This should be the carline the GTO moves into, where it belongs, so for the musclecar snobs, the V-8 engine capability should be engineered in. Beyond that, the car itself can be called G6, Tempest, or LeMans. Flame away, because I know someone's not going to like the idea.

[aaaantoine]

I think GM wants to go in the opposite direction by having as many cars as possible on as few platforms as possible. They'd probably go as far as to put next-gen Subaru cars on Epsilon II if they had that much control over Subaru. With the Malibu Maxx and Opel ... whatever it's called, GM has proven that the platform is flexible enough to support hatchbacks. We've also seen it support coupes and convertibles. Also - though I'm not sure where I read this - Epsilon II will supposedly be built with AWD in mind. I'm not against Pontiac having a midsize 5-door, though. Edited September 19, 2005 by aaaantoine

[LosAngeles]

Sometimes, differentiation is good. Especially with too many folks thinking of Chevy versions as the basis of everything else GM makes. Pontiac, for one, should definitely want to get away from that.

[balthazar]

I think the next WRX should be on the Epsilon II platform.

[pow]

I think the next WRX should be on the Epsilon II platform.

[post="16829"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No one wants a midsized WRX.

[ToniCipriani]

I think the next WRX should be on the Epsilon II platform.

[post="16829"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Not Epsilon II, but I think Delta II should be considered though. Have Subaru develop an AWD system for the compact chassis, and imagine the ultimate Lancer EVO beater for Pontiac...

[Cory Wolfe]

:blink:

My thought was that Pontiac should use worldwide partner Subaru's Legacy platform for the G6's replacement, if the Epsilon II doesn't get the promised AWD. But of course, unlike the Saab 9-2X's use of the WRX's whole body aft of the nose, Pontiac would style its own body, and maybe even be a bit bigger.

Bigger? ...If bigger than the Legacy means bigger than the current G6, I disagree. Width and track would be fine, however. But the G6 is the perfect size as it is.

Is there flexibility for longitudinal engine mounting, and/or to use a V- or straight-configured piston engine instead of the flat-4 used in Subarus?

I think this next Pontiac should use the HF or Atlas 5 for its base, instead of fours of any kind.

Okay... Not a bad idea, but I think a 170-190hp I4 as a base with a turbocharged version optional. However, this is only if it loses weight. At it's current 3500lbs... a non-turbo I4 is unacceptable. Above those engines should be the 2.8L turbo V6 as well as a 3.6L turbo V6.

The roofline should be pulled up and back enough to clear adult back seat passengers. There should be a wagon, coupe, and fastback sedan instead of the typical notchback 4-door.

Hold up... What? I'm confused... but I think I disagree with everything. Leave the roofline alone. No wagon... I'm not against wagons, but leave it for a larger or smaller vehicle. And fastback sedan? What the hell does that mean? Compared to most sedans, the current sedan isn't very notchback like... and I like it just the way it is. It's perfect. So if you mean fastback like the coupe... I'm going to have to disagree. Even the coupe is way too fastback like, IMO.

The AWD should be standard (satisfying snobs of both drivelines).

Standard? ...Okay, I can deal with that, but I think it may be a bit expensive.

This should be the carline the GTO moves into, where it belongs, so for the musclecar snobs, the V-8 engine capability should be engineered in. Beyond that, the car itself can be called G6, Tempest, or LeMans.

What? If you mean that the GTO would get it's own styling and stays RWD... Maybe. As for the name... No, no, no, no, no. Grand Am. I'm already pissed enough about it not being on the G6. And you can't bring up its image since LeMans is an Opel/Deawoo hatchback and Tempest is Corsica sedan. So don't bother.

[LosAngeles]

[quote name='blackviper8891' date='Sep 19 2005, 03:41 PM']:blink:
Bigger? ...If bigger than the Legacy means bigger than the current G6, I disagree. Width and track would be fine, however. But the G6 is the perfect size as it is.[/quote]
When you become a grown man, you'll see what I'm talking about. It doesn't have to be a full-fledged big car, just given a couple of more inches to actually become something meaty. It's more important that the roofline is broken out and different shaped front seatbacks are used moreso than actually making a longer car. No Pontiac has to be a family car, but it should be able to seat four six-footers comfortably.

[quote]I think a 170-190hp I4 as a base with a turbocharged version optional. However, this is only if it loses weight. At it's current 3500lbs... a non-turbo I4 is unacceptable. Above those engines should be the 2.8L turbo V6 as well as a 3.6L turbo V6.[/quote]
I think it's time to leave the fours to compacts.

[quote]Leave the roofline alone.[/quote]
As addressed earlier, the roofline is part of the room problem.

[quote]No wagon... I'm not against wagons, but leave it for a larger or smaller vehicle.[/quote]
The intermediate segment is as good a place as any for a wagon.

[quote]And fastback sedan? What the hell does that mean? Compared to most sedans, the current sedan isn't very notchback like... and I like it just the way it is. It's perfect. So if you mean fastback like the coupe... I'm going to have to disagree. Even the coupe is way too fastback like, IMO.[/quote]
I mean a 5-door. And I also think this current coupoe could have been a 3-door with that shape.

BTW, if the G6 is so perfect, is that the car you want right now?

[quote]Standard? ...Okay, I can deal with that, but I think it may be a bit expensive.[/quote]
Doesn't seem to cost that much at Subaru.

[quote]If you mean that the GTO would get it's own styling and stays RWD... Maybe.[/quote]
If you mean "own styling," as in a touch of something else added here and there like the M3 or the GTOs of yesterday, that's my idea. A completely different stand-alone car doesn't say GTO, it says exotic, and that kind of car may as well get a different name. It also says higher insurance rates.

[quote]As for the name... No, no, no, no, no. Grand Am. I'm already pissed enough about it not being on the G6. And you can't bring up its image since LeMans is an Opel/Deawoo hatchback and Tempest is Corsica sedan. So don't bother.

[post="16874"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

[/quote]
They could call it Beaumont or Acadian for all I give a crap, as long as they get it right.

[Cory Wolfe]

[quote name='LosAngeles' date='Sep 19 2005, 08:47 PM']When you become a grown man, you'll see what I'm talking about.  It doesn't have to be a full-fledged big car, just given a couple of more inches to actually become something meaty.  It's more important that the roofline is broken out and different shaped front seatbacks are used moreso than actually making a longer car.  No Pontiac has to be a family car, but it should be able to seat four six-footers comfortably.[/quote]
Grown man? And what the hell do you mean by that? :huh:

Otherwise, I think I still disagree. I don't want a "meaty" car. That sounds like something to describe the Charger. Not very flattering. So, if meaty means that or like a Camry or Accord, I don't want it and the G6 does not need to be that. The G6 is the perfect size as it is.

Yeah, it lacks rear headroom... But if you want to complain, do it about the Grand Prix. It has alot less than the G6.

[quote]I think it's time to leave the fours to compacts.[/quote]
What compact? I don't see a true Pontiac compact.

[quote]As addressed earlier, the roofline is part of the room problem.[/quote]
It's not a problem. It looks great.

[quote]The intermediate segment is as good a place as any for a wagon.

I mean a 5-door.  And I also think this current coupoe could have been a 3-door with that shape.[/quote]
First, can you just refer to it as midsize? Thanks...

Second, thats not what I meant. Take a look at sales... Why else do you think Honda and Toyota don't sell them? Midsize coupes sell better than them...

[quote]BTW, if the G6 is so perfect, is that the car you want right now?[/quote]
Why yes it is, actually... I'd love to replace my GA with one. But it isn't perfect. I have a few problems with some styling details, a minor problem with the coupe, and a huge problem with the interior.

[quote]Doesn't seem to cost that much at Subaru.[/quote]
Hmmm... How much does a base Legacy cost compared to a G6, etc. Same with a base Impreza compared to a base Cobalt, etc.

[quote]If you mean "own styling," as in a touch of something else added here and there like the M3 or the GTOs of yesterday, that's my idea.  A completely different stand-alone car doesn't say GTO, it says exotic, and that kind of car may as well get a different name.  It also says higher insurance rates.[/quote]
No... That's not what I meant. This isn't the '60s anymore. The GTO should not be a V8 powered G6 with a few add-ons here and there. People will complain. People do now about how it looks like a GA or GP and its not even close to being based on them. Will people magically not-complain more with your idea? I doubt it. Completely different styling is needed.

[quote]They could call it Beaumont or Acadian for all I give a crap, as long as they get it right.[/quote]
If you don't care... You might as well not care about the rest either. :rolleyes:

[haypops]

I think this next Pontiac should use the HF or Atlas 5 for its base, instead of fours of any kind. 

[post="16658"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The only engine possibilities for the legacy chassis are boxer engine. IIRC

[LosAngeles]

This is why you speak to Subaru about help bringing on board other engine types for Pontiac. Subaru can keep their flats, since that's their bread and butter, but for Pontiac, help them work in the inlines and V's. With the AWD, mounting the engine longitudinally or transversely wouldn't matter. If these ideas and problems are kept in mind from the top, it can be done. And to BV, I wasn't asking for there to be a 200-inch-long intermediate. If that was the case, I may as well stick to talking all this Zeta stuff. Just a further back and up roofline with thinner front seatbacks (getting rid of those hard knee panels on them, at that) and lower rear seat bottoms for more head and leg room for the six-footers. Getting in the back of the G6 sedan makes one claustrophobic....the room of the replacement should be more like the 92 GA. It's OK to even go the 3-series route, where although the sedan/wagon and coupe/GTO clearly are of the same line and look alike, that they wouldn't really share body panels, as the lengths here and there are different for each. This wouldn't mean the sedan wouldn't fit the smallblock, however. The coupe/GTO doesn't even have to BE as long (current one's only 189 inches and the rear's got more room than the G6, ain't that something?)...unless you wanted to make it a 2-door sedan, like old Accord 2-doors, so you can actually fit people back there. All of this is why I say you design this car from the GTO backwards instead of from the base sedan upwards.

[ehaase]

This topic is irrelevant now that GM is selling its interest in Subaru (Fuji Heavy).

[frogger]

This topic is irrelevant now that GM is selling its interest in Subaru (Fuji Heavy).

[post="24499"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

10 more years of "How can such a big car be so small inside W-Body!" Yeehaa!
Ok maybe not Edited October 6, 2005 by frogger

[hyperv6]

You use a 4n platform that is not even GM derived and people will scream to high heaven. They pissed an moaned enough just with a GM derived 4n platform as it is.

[ehaase]

10 more years of "How can such a big car be so small inside W-Body!" Yeehaa!
Ok maybe not

The insiders here have already told us that a long wheelbase version of Epsilon will replace the W body. I would guess no more than 5 or 6 more years for the W body.