A bit of old school ICE goodness to offset the electrical and Hybrid content here.

2 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Actually one car that has grown on me, would consider if I didn't need a truck for the next one, is Ford Mach E. More $ than Bolt, but larger, better looking, more practical. I actually really like these.

Oh I agree, but if I'm spending that much, I'd just make the jump to a Prologue(it's a little bigger than a Mach-E) to replace my Navigator. A Bolt/e golf/Volt/Leaf is something that I'd buy as a 2nd vehicle just to commute to and from work.

2 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Mileage may complicate lease for him, and I don't like leasing, they hold all the cards on returns with wear and tear and what they can subjectively consider excessive.

I'm not a huge fan of leases either. If I didn't drive so much, I think a lease would work though. I think a 20k mile lease would make the payment on even a cheap EV pretty high.

2 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

One practical idea-buy a Maverick Hybrid. LOTS of happy owners. We ALMOST pulled the plug on one when I bought the Camry. VERY impressed with what Ford did with that, and they seem to be reliable and durable.

I did sit in one a few weeks ago when my Navigator had recall work done. They're not toooo small.

2 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Even at 12 grand, to me buying a Corolla Hybrid at 2x the price would make sense just because I really don't like the abandoned tech. Also, every Volt owner I know had gas start going bad in the tank because they used so little gasoline. Used Volt OTOH, cheap, and much newer tech.

24k + gas will never pay for itself, in my situation. I'd also be using a little bit of gas every day, so it wouldn't go bad for me.

Also, I thought Volts would periodically run automatically just to fully heat up and burn old gas, if they're being run "too much" on battery alone.

2 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

interested in Kia EV.

In my situation, the Hyundai Ionic Electric fits the bill as well. 125 miles of range and roughly the same price of an E Golf/Volt. I believe the Kona Electric was Kia's version of the Ionic Electric.

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

In my situation, the Hyundai Ionic Electric fits the bill as well. 125 miles of range and roughly the same price of an E Golf/Volt. I believe the Kona Electric was Kia's version of the Ionic Electric.

Yes, Kia it would be the EV3 but we do not get it due to Idiot47

There is the Kia Niro EV. 13 in your area which 7 are used. They also have their Hybrids which have done very well.

Kia Niro Electric for Sale in Saint Louis, MO - Autotrader

Hyundai is the Kona Electric

There are only 2 in your area used for sale.
Used Hyundai Kona Electric for Sale in Saint Louis, MO - Autotrader

GMC is blending their EV Pickup with their ICE in the Style / looks department. I do like the reduction in trims to simplify. Pro, Elevation, AT4, Denali, and Denali Ultimate

GMC introduces the most advanced, luxurious, and powerful Sierra 1500 Ever

Very interesting read:
Car manufacturers are ditching Android Auto in 2026: Here's why

Then here is GM's press release about their Google Play Android Auto OS focus:
Summer drives in your GM vehicle get an upgrade with 200+ new apps on Google Play and more passenger entertainment

Very interesting times for sure!

On 6/9/2026 at 6:30 PM, Guest nobody said:

Hard to feel bad for someone using his daddy's insider information to make huge trades in the stock market to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars.

There are a lot of filthy rich people who are miserable. Money does not buy the more basic things most normal, everyday people get from the get go. He will have missed out on a "normal" upbringing.

Good morning:

This is one very French looking broad!

On 6/19/2026 at 1:33 AM, Drew Dowdell said:

They rebuilt the towanda plant almost from the ground up for these engines. I’ll reserve judgement for now.

The few times I've driven through the Buffalo area to cross over to Ontario so I can keep driving to Toronto, I see the signs for Tonawanda. I have no idea what the plant looks like and wonder if it's close to the interstate. It has been around for a very long time.

Good afternoon:

You all know by now that I look up some fairly random things. I was trying to see if the Italians have an equivalent for "lipstick lesbian" so I can explain it to my relatives. They have a literal translation, but nothing that sounds like the needed colloquialism.

Today is my last full day in Europe for a while. I fly back transatlantic tomorrow. I've been in Portugal for about a week. I walked out of the main Metro station yesterday afternoon and there was a big crowd for Pride festivities making it hard to circulate easily.

That dovetails perfectly because this chick in the stock photo appears to be walking in the Edmonton, Canada Pride parade in 2011. Why does she have shades on? She has a goofy look about her, leading me to wonder if she's a two bagger. Or maybe just one.

I don't know what energy I put out, but lesbians seem to want to pick a fight with me about once every one to two years. This makes for great stories. I just look like a guy who went to 16 years of Catholic school.

41 minutes ago, trinacriabob said:

The few times I'vedriven through the Buffalo area to cross over to Ontario so I can keep driving to Toronto, I see the signs for Tonawanda. I have no idea what the plant looks like and wonder if it's close to the interstate. It has been around for a very long time.

I recall seeing the Tonawanda signs when driving in Buffalo area. One connections to the engines I recall is when my late brother had a '68 Camaro SS 396 back in the 80s-90s, it had a 'built in Tonowanda' decal on the chrome valve cover.

Also, happy birthday @Robert Hall

5 hours ago, trinacriabob said:

Also, happy birthday @Robert Hall

Where do you see the birthdays, used to show up on the home page, but I do not see it anymore.

Happy Birthday @Robert Hall

OUCH, we are just a couple percentage points away from the 1999 Dot com crash. Anyone want to take a bet on a Market crash under Idiot47?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/savingandinvesting/is-a-stock-market-crash-looming-under-president-donald-trump-history-doesn-t-mince-its-words/ar-AA26Jri9?ocid=msedgntp&pc=W069&cvid=6a41e4d027ad43e183317e1786e7edde&ei=10

History has not been kind and all his stupidity is moving America to facing a terrible crash that is going to hurt many.

This is pretty clear on why EVs are better in saving you money over ICE. Very good comparison.

I compared how much it costs to own a Tesla vs Toyota gas car over 15 years and there's a very stark difference

I honestly think the AI spending has gone nuts and we are going to see many companies go bankrupt rather than become that uber profitable company everyone says they will become.

AI boom risks global financial crash, warn central bankers

Continued proof of Idiot47 lack of any real intelligence. I wonder what legacy companies could die if the market crashes as the warning signs are pointing too.

President Donald Trump just took a jab at his handpicked Fed chair, Kevin Warsh, over interest rates

12 hours ago, G. David Felt said:

Where do you see the birthdays, used to show up on the home page, but I do not see it anymore.

Happy Birthday @Robert Hall

His birthday is in the vicinity of or right on that of a few people I know. A certain light bulb went on as I was responding to his post.

Much like I remember engine displacements and the weird names GM used to assign to car colors, I often remember birthdays. I don't even try. I just do. I'm not sure if there's a term for that. However, I CANNOT tell you what day of the week a day fell on. That one is weird. I knew one person who could. He was "different."

11 hours ago, G. David Felt said:

This is pretty clear on why EVs are better in saving you money over ICE. Very good comparison.

I compared how much it costs to own a Tesla vs Toyota gas car over 15 years and there's a very stark difference

I'd argue this isn't exactly a "very good" comparison. I don't like when they throw in maintenance and just say "routine maintenance" will cost $XXX. That's so broad. What kind of routine maintenance will cost 6k for a Model 3 over 180k miles? 3 sets of tires and one set of brakes? $7300 for maintenance on a Corolla? I'm sure that's following the book on oil changes, a transmission and coolant flush. Are they assuming a full suspension overhaul at that mileage for both cars?

Oh yeah, they didn't even mention the Corolla's fuel economy that they used for their numbers. Or national average insurance rates for both vehicles. I'm sure it's considerably more expensive to insure a Model 3 than a Corolla.

I just feel like blanket comparison like this always leave a lot out and aren't actually "good comparisons". They're just *A* comparison.

21 hours ago, trinacriabob said:

The few times I've driven through the Buffalo area to cross over to Ontario so I can keep driving to Toronto, I see the signs for Tonawanda. I have no idea what the plant looks like and wonder if it's close to the interstate. It has been around for a very long time.

I had an old Neighbor from the 80s who was a labor negotiator there.

Interesting from an engineering viewpoint.

Its very well explained here.

6 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I'd argue this isn't exactly a "very good" comparison. I don't like when they throw in maintenance and just say "routine maintenance" will cost $XXX. That's so broad. What kind of routine maintenance will cost 6k for a Model 3 over 180k miles? 3 sets of tires and one set of brakes? $7300 for maintenance on a Corolla? I'm sure that's following the book on oil changes, a transmission and coolant flush. Are they assuming a full suspension overhaul at that mileage for both cars?

Oh yeah, they didn't even mention the Corolla's fuel economy that they used for their numbers. Or national average insurance rates for both vehicles. I'm sure it's considerably more expensive to insure a Model 3 than a Corolla.

I just feel like blanket comparison like this always leave a lot out and aren't actually "good comparisons". They're just *A* comparison.

Yeah, that wasn’t a very good comparison and it wasn’t fair to either the Tesla or the Corolla, just in different ways. A Corolla really isn’t a market equivalent to a model 3. A more fair comparison would be something like a Cadillac CT4 or a Buick Regal if it was still made.

Interesting read

Most Americans have no idea how close we just came to financial chaos

17 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Yeah, that wasn’t a very good comparison and it wasn’t fair to either the Tesla or the Corolla, just in different ways. A Corolla really isn’t a market equivalent to a model 3. A more fair comparison would be something like a Cadillac CT4 or a Buick Regal if it was still made.

Yep, I didn't even mention the purchase price difference. I'd think those two TOTAL COSTS over 15 years would actually be pretty similar when you factor in price and insurance.

Agreed, that it wasn't fair to either, just in different ways.

11 hours ago, G. David Felt said:

Interesting read

Most Americans have no idea how close we just came to financial chaos

Give us time, American Stupidity runs major deep.

I can't tell you how much I would love to just be able to bike or take public transit over owning a car. Seriously. I am ready for a life change.

Anyways, going to stir the pot.

16 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Yep, I didn't even mention the purchase price difference. I'd think those two TOTAL COSTS over 15 years would actually be pretty similar when you factor in price and insurance.

Agreed, that it wasn't fair to either, just in different ways.

Eh, I think the Tesla would still end up being cheaper, but pretty much any other EV would be cheaper still due to the Tesla insurance issue. I think comparing an Ioniq 6 to a nicely equipped Sonata 2.5T is a closer match and likely similar insurance rates. the BMW i4 v BMW 440i is one where the performance gets pretty close and the price difference is a rounding error. In the end the i4 will be cheaper because of fuel economy and not needing premium gas. Ionic 9 v. Tahoe is another as long as you're not trying to tow 9,000 lbs and it is just doing family hauler duty, the pricing between the two models is very close.

52 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Eh, I think the Tesla would still end up being cheaper, but pretty much any other EV would be cheaper still due to the Tesla insurance issue.

I agree, which is why I said they'd be "similar". But I guess what kind of savings over 15 years would the Model 3 net you? What're you thinking? I also expect the Model 3 to have overall savings, but 15 years is a long time and if it only ends up like 2k in savings, that's pretty negligible for that period of time.

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

I agree, which is why I said they'd be "similar". But I guess what kind of savings over 15 years would the Model 3 net you? What're you thinking? I also expect the Model 3 to have overall savings, but 15 years is a long time and if it only ends up like 2k in savings, that's pretty negligible for that period of time.

To many variables to be able to make a blanket statement. Are you in a cheap gas state or a cheap electricity state? Are you in a state that has big differences in car insurance? Are you going to charge at home on Level 2 or are you using Superchargers mostly? You'll save money on oil changes by driving the Tesla, but you'll pay more in tires every 5(?) years simply because the Model 3 has bigger, more expensive tires. Are you buying a RWD Model 3 or an AWD Model 3? Are you buying the standard Corolla or the hybrid?

My bet is that if you're in a situation that makes an EV make more sense (cheap electricity to charge at home) and you drive a lot of miles, the savings on gas wipes out the difference in insurance pretty quickly

It's a full pros-cons spreadsheet. I asked Claude to calculate it for us.

Prompt: If someone is averaging 15k miles a year and driving a 40mpg hybrid, current price of gas is $4.19/g, what is the annual cost of gasoline for that person. Compare that to a Tesla Model 3 RWD long range that charges mostly at home at 17c/kWh.

Calculated fuel versus electricity costs, reconciling Tesla efficiency ratings

Calculated fuel versus electricity costs, reconciling Tesla efficiency ratings

Hybrid vs. Tesla Model 3 LR RWD — Annual Fuel/Energy Cost

---

🔴 40 MPG Hybrid @ $4.19/gal

• 15,000 ÷ 40 = 375 gallons/year

• 375 × $4.19 = $1,571.25/year

---

⚡ Tesla Model 3 Long Range RWD @ $0.17/kWh

The Model 3 LR RWD is EPA-rated at roughly 26 kWh per 100 miles (EPA figures are wall-to-wheel, so charging losses are baked in).

• 15,000 miles × 0.26 kWh/mile = 3,900 kWh/year

• 3,900 × $0.17 = $663/year

---

📊 Summary

	Annual Cost	Per Mile
40 MPG Hybrid	$1,571	~$0.105
Tesla Model 3 LR RWD	$663	~$0.044
Savings	$908/year	~$0.061

The EV is about 58% cheaper to "fuel" at those numbers — saving roughly $900/year, or nearly $4,500 over 5 years just on energy costs, before factoring in any price changes in gas or electricity.

Flag worth noting: if that person uses public fast charging (Supercharger, etc.) even occasionally, costs go up — Supercharger rates are typically $0.25–0.45/kWh depending on location and time. At 17¢ home charging the math is very favorable, but a mixed charging profile would eat into that gap.

So it looks like as long as the difference in insurance is less than $900 a year, the Model 3 wins.

Personally, even though I loath Tesla, I would probably pick the Model-3 over the Corolla for my use-case scenario just to have the self-driving feature. Having a less exhausting journey for myself is helpful being a consultant. That wouldn't necessarily be something I can quantify in a spreadsheet. My travels, currently, are also through mountainous areas that kill fuel economy in my gassers but could be advantageous for an EV for regen. It's a weird "uphill both ways" scenario that I could use to my charging advantage if I was careful.

(I'm tempted to rent a Tesla just to try it now)

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

To many variables to be able to make a blanket statement. Are you in a cheap gas state or a cheap electricity state? Are you in a state that has big differences in car insurance? Are you going to charge at home on Level 2 or are you using Superchargers mostly? You'll save money on oil changes by driving the Tesla, but you'll pay more in tires every 5(?) years simply because the Model 3 has bigger, more expensive tires. Are you buying a RWD Model 3 or an AWD Model 3? Are you buying the standard Corolla or the hybrid?

My bet is that if you're in a situation that makes an EV make more sense (cheap electricity to charge at home) and you drive a lot of miles, the savings on gas wipes out the difference in insurance pretty quickly

It's a full pros-cons spreadsheet. I asked Claude to calculate it for us.

So it looks like as long as the difference in insurance is less than $900 a year, the Model 3 wins.

Personally, even though I loath Tesla, I would probably pick the Model-3 over the Corolla for my use-case scenario just to have the self-driving feature. Having a less exhausting journey for myself is helpful being a consultant. That wouldn't necessarily be something I can quantify in a spreadsheet. My travels, currently, are also through mountainous areas that kill fuel economy in my gassers but could be advantageous for an EV for regen. It's a weird "uphill both ways" scenario that I could use to my charging advantage if I was careful.

(I'm tempted to rent a Tesla just to try it now)

The self driving thing is pretty amazing.

For me in comparison to the SS I replaced with the EV9. Insurance was a wash on my policy, no real difference. The difference was clearly in Home Charging versus the Premium fuel and low MPG that the SS got. The monthly fuel cost for the SS covers the EV9 payment and charging and I still have no maintenance in comparison to the SS. Big win for me in a state that has some of the cheapest electrical rates and highest gas prices. Washington state does have a flat $250 fee added to your yearly license to make up for the lost gas tax which here is 56.5 cents per gallon plus the federal gas tax so a total of 74.9 cents per gallon tax. Filled up the Escalade today, $146 for the fill-up.

I honestly thought about writing an opinion piece on the stupid house measure passed about autos that are perceived to be connected to China. So, with it we have the death of Polestar, but Volvo gets a pass and yet both are Chinese owned and connected to China.

US bans Polestar but not Volvo in baffling EV ruling

This is one of the biggest idiots moves by the current ignorant administration.

Cool news from BMW
BMW Group Completes $1.7 Billion U.S. Investment and Premieres New BMW X5 at “Home of X” Event in Spartanburg, SC

The new BMW X5.

The new BMW iX5 – the first battery-electric BMW X5 – is launching with the sixth generation of BMW’s eDrive technology. This means longer ranges of up to 845 kilometres (525 miles) in the BMW iX5 60 xDrive, fast charging, 800V technology and practical bidirectional charging.

Start your engines on your thoughts of the style?

7 hours ago, G. David Felt said:

For me in comparison to the SS I replaced with the EV9. Insurance was a wash on my policy, no real difference. The difference was clearly in Home Charging versus the Premium fuel and low MPG that the SS got. The monthly fuel cost for the SS covers the EV9 payment and charging and I still have no maintenance in comparison to the SS. Big win for me in a state that has some of the cheapest electrical rates and highest gas prices. Washington state does have a flat $250 fee added to your yearly license to make up for the lost gas tax which here is 56.5 cents per gallon plus the federal gas tax so a total of 74.9 cents per gallon tax. Filled up the Escalade today, $146 for the fill-up.

That brings up another good point. This may seem obcious, but the calculus for an EV works better the worse the mileage of the equivalent gas vehicle is. I remember a while ago people trying to compare the Hummer EVs to a Corolla and saying it didn't make financial sense for the Hummer. But the real comparison is probably something more like an Escalade. A Hummer EV may not be a great savings compared to a Corolla, but it blows away an Escalade.