Item: 1964 Pontiac Grand Prix

[balthazar]

Ya- had it for years. What scale are the standard model kits- 1/25? That size.
 

3 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I don't have one, but have a couple of the annual model kits of the '64 (which share the promo tooling but w/ an opening hood and engine, extra parts).   '64 was the first year AMT made a Grand Prix kit or promo, they made them for '64 and '65.

Not sure I understood you - you have a '64 GP kit? Have a pic??

 

- - - - -
I had a coupe promo for the B-59, but it was a bit warped and I sold it.

Edited May 13, 2021 by balthazar

[Robert Hall]

7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Ya- had it for years. What scale are the standard model kits- 1/25? That size.
 

Not sure I understood you - you have a '64 GP kit? Have a pic??

 

- - - - -
I had a coupe promo for the B-59, but it was a bit warped and I sold it.

Yes, 1/25th is the US standard scale (1/24 for Japanese and European brands).   

I have two of the AMT '64 GP annuals (along with the '64 Bonneville ht & convertible)....both of mine were bought as built, one fairly well, one pretty rough.  They are in storage, but here is a pic of the '64 box art.   I also have the '59 Buick annual kits (ht & conv), along w/ all the full size Buicks from '60-66 along w/ the '69 & 70 (there were no full size Buick kits for '67-68 or after '70). 

 

[balthazar]

Would you be interested in parting with one of each?  

[Robert Hall]

26 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Would you be interested in parting with one of each?  

Maybe in the future once I get them out of storage.  

[balthazar]

Thanks- keep me in mind.

[balthazar]

Restored bits collection keeps growing: 

[oldshurst442]

^^^  Hey...those are the UFOs...

How did you get your hands on them from the Feds, or CIA or even the MIB?

 

[balthazar]

The black one is the Feds; the new 'black helicopter'.

[balthazar]

Cracked all 16 head bolts loose, pulled the valley pan (nothing to report beneath it). Bolts broke loose fairly easily.
Took A/C compressor out. Next step is jacking car up & going underneath to investigate separation from exhaust & transmission.

Edited June 1, 2021 by balthazar

[balthazar]

Working on sanding down the hood (came off a Catalina Ventura I had years ago). 

Edited May 31, 2021 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

^^^

I always loved the way Pontiac shaped their hoods and front ends into the design to incorporate their arrowhead.  Everything comes to a peak and a point. And the center of it all is that arrowhead that is the center piece of that middle point in the hood. And on the front end, that famous Pontiac beak nose would be front and center. And sometimes that beak nose would house that famous Pontiac arrowhead instead of the hood.  

LOVE IT!!! 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

There's always been a bit of nebulous info out there RE P-64s; it's said that in GTO's the starter is mounted to the block, enabling transmissions changes at will. I've further heard this was the same for Grand Prixs... but my car is an early build (4th week of October '63), and via direct observation; my car's starter is mounted to the transmission bellhousing. That's 'one more straw' against changing out the trans, so I'm going to stick with the original Roto HydraMatic. 

[A Horse With No Name]

17 hours ago, balthazar said:

There's always been a bit of nebulous info out there RE P-64s; it's said that in GTO's the starter is mounted to the block, enabling transmissions changes at will. I've further heard this was the same for Grand Prixs... but my car is an early build (4th week of October '63), and via direct observation; my car's starter is mounted to the transmission bellhousing. That's 'one more straw' against changing out the trans, so I'm going to stick with the original Roto HydraMatic. 

Interested to watch the progres here...

[balthazar]

Motor/trans pull imminent...

[David]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Motor/trans pull imminent...

Pictures Please  

[balthazar]

Disconnected: starter wire, shift linkage, trans mount, some sort of heat shield, 1 motor mount bolt, speedo cable.
Left: other motor mount bolt, oil pressure wire, coil wire (to harness). Fun laying under a cob-web-dripping, rust flaking car undoing fasteners last tightened in 1964.

Talked to my friend who's motor is in the shop right now- he says maybe another week or 2. Them my bro's '65 GTO motor goes in, with a promised '2.5-3 month' turnaround. Then mine.

Mine is going to be a dream- so many pieces cleaned, painted, threaded chased, etc. Going to completely disassemble the motor other than the valves/valve springs. Plus it's all original- no whackadoodle retro-fits to figure out.

[balthazar]

UPDATE : My brother has bowed out of the engine rebuild pecking order; he's way too busy with work & building a garage/apartment addition at his place, which means I'm up next. Going to try to hold the builder to the promised '3 month turnaround'. But now I have to shift into overdrive and get this out & prepped. 

Moved some stuff around in Bay 3 to make room for the cherry picker moving around/planning The Yank. Then got sidetracked cutting the bum steel wheels off a 1940’s dress stand to convert it into a floor lamp (has an interesting cast iron 4-leg base).

Edited June 12, 2021 by balthazar

[balthazar]

Powerbarn is empty! 

[David]

WOW, look those inefficient headers. @balthazar are you going to put modern headers on it or stay with these factory flow colliding headers?

[balthazar]

Tube headers have their own set of problems.
There are repro 'long-branch' cast headers, but they are 1. out of stock, 2. extremely heavy, 3. $600 (plus shipping).
The short 'Ram Air' cast manifolds only add about 10 HP, kinda a poor return for $450.

Exactly like aerodynamics; it's hard to look at a part and tell how well/poor it handles airflow.

Edited June 16, 2021 by balthazar

[balthazar]

Automobile magazine / Robert Cumberford's analysis. He actually worked in GM Styling about 1954-58 (he's 85-yrs old now), but I can tell he's looking only at a few pics and making a lot of assumptions (and errors). For example- he calls the thin steering wheel rim a "GM conceit" when it was without question a global occurrence. He quizzically states 'gauges, gauges everywhere and not a thing to read'.

Lastly; thin whitewall tires were "enormously fun to draw"??? 

https://www.automobilemag.com/news/1964-pontiac-grand-prix/

[balthazar]

Bit of a pickle : with engine stuck I cannot easily disconnect the transmission. Need to rotate the flywheel to disconnect from torque converter.... no rotate-O.

Going to have to basically completely disassemble the engine and try to manual work the pistons free. 

[David]

13 hours ago, balthazar said:

Bit of a pickle : with engine stuck I cannot easily disconnect the transmission. Need to rotate the flywheel to disconnect from torque converter.... no rotate-O.

Going to have to basically completely disassemble the engine and try to manual work the pistons free. 

At least then you will learn what froze it up. Bummer though, lots of work to get it done. Wishing you all the best and hopefully once the one item that has frozen frees  up, it will go smoothly for you.

[balthazar]

Drained the rest of the fluids out & took the heads off today. Nothing of note in the bore other than some old carbon. Wiped them clean, hammered on each piston with a wood block/hammer, squirted them up with plentiful Kroil, hammered again, tried turning but nothing. Will let soak.

[balthazar]

Made 4x4 'pestle' out of wood, beat harder on the pistons, about 10 times in 2 circuits, and they broke free. Worked the crank back & forth, until I had free movement and numerous rotations. I suspect that the 2 cylinders that did NOT drain the Marvel Mystery Oil out were the culprits. 
Got the trans disconnected and separated. Happiness. 

Roto HydraMatic has no torque converter! 
 

[Drew Dowdell]

Congrats on getting it loose! How much of the literature do you have on this car?

[balthazar]

I have a worn owner's manual, a worn Protect-O-Plate book (but not from my car), a mint accessories catalog. Was looking at picking up the deluxe sales brochure and an Electro-Cruise mini-brochure. Have lots of print ads...

Edited June 26, 2021 by balthazar

[balthazar]

One side head & exhaust manifold separated. Had to heat each bolt, and heads were corroded enough to make me bounce between 13mm and 9/16 sockets. Overall, not too much of a struggle. 
 

[Drew Dowdell]

On 6/26/2021 at 5:57 PM, balthazar said:

I have a worn owner's manual, a worn Protect-O-Plate book (but not from my car), a mint accessories catalog. Was looking at picking up the deluxe sales brochure and an Electro-Cruise mini-brochure. Have lots of print ads...

I got an additional large cache of vintage print that I intend to sell. There's two boxes of Pontiac stuff....if I find any '64 Pontiac things, I'll save them for your consideration. 

[balthazar]

Got other exhaust manifold separated. Boy- a ton of rust came out of that one. I believe I can reuse these but they're going to take some clean up work- a couple hours worth, then paint them with exhaust 'cast iron' paint. 

I found a dyno test; the repro 'Ram Air' manifolds are only good for an average of 7 HP over stock pieces. Not worth the money if you already have.

Edited June 30, 2021 by balthazar

[balthazar]

• pulled the master cylinder & power booster to cross-reference for dual MC upgrade.
• pulled LH rear wheel/brake to evaluate braking components. Drum is fine, shoes look fine but might replace those anyway. Hydraulics will be 100% new.
• stripped the linkage and a vent apparatus off the trans; going to the rebuilder next week. Also did some scraping/ wire brushing/ burr filing on the case exterior.

[balthazar]

• More cleaning of trans exterior.
• started cleaning valley pan. It's 2 pieces of stamped steel, spot welded together around the perimeter (22 spot welds). PCV vents into the space between, and it has a few 'drain' ports on the underside. Hardened grease accumulates inside, and it's certainly advisable to clean it out internally as best as possible. Different suggestions out there... or pony up $150 and buy a fresh repro one. Pondering if I can find a tub big enough to soak it for a few weeks.
 

[balthazar]

Back on the car recently. My buddy’s motor finally made it out of the builder’s shop, next my brother is taking his ‘65 389 Tri-P and my ‘64 389 Tri-P is going in at the same time.

Got the valley pan cleaned, tried soaking in mineral spirits but that did almost nothing, so I BBQ’d it at around 400-450 for half an hour, cooked the grease inside to dried ash. Cleaned the inside as good as it’s going to get, then slim-coated some JBWeld on some of the deeper pits. Light sand, a few coats of primer, then paint the top side.

Switched my sand blast cabinet over to glass bead. Going to hit the valve covers so I can paint them. 

Got a gasket & filter for the trans, need to order frt & rr seals so that’s freshened/done.

Once I get a repro exhaust system here, up on my buddy’s lift it goes for exhaust/ fuel & brake lines.

[balthazar]

Valve covers got glass-beaded and primed.
Exhaust manifolds got blasted & painted.
Valley pan is painted.
 

Edited October 30, 2021 by balthazar

[balthazar]

Cleaned the exterior of the transmission off, took off the pan and thoroughly cleaned & primed it. Fluid looked excellent/clean, no metallic particles found in fluid/pan. Have a new filter, gasket and new front/rear seals to go in once pan is painted. Weather for painting slipping away- low 50s for the highs currently, but can always spray in the basement.

Exhaust ordered, but turnaround time is 8-12 weeks. That's still works.

Edited November 4, 2021 by balthazar

[balthazar]

Pan & bolts cleaned & painted. New filter, gasket going in: 

[balthazar]

• Trans is all buttoned up now- new front & rear seals, pan gasket, filter. Exterior cleaned off, linkage gone thru/lubed. It's off to the side, waiting.
• My helper did a cursory cleaning of the cylinder heads- removed grease & flaky rust.
• Finished deburring the lifter galley & block exterior.

Going to take the block & heads to the engine builder next week, along with my brother's '65 GTO 389.

[balthazar]

Just got back from dropping the engine / pieces off at the engine builder. He has a stellar reputation, did engine work for Bob Glidden for years (Pro-Stock), but he's not the fastest. Still; he seemed stoked to do a stock rebuild rather than super-rare / high-po stuff. Had a factory 440 6-pack block sitting there going back into a numbers-matching MoPar. Said he'll disassemble/evaluated my motor next week, so that's exciting.