G. David Felt

@dwightlooi Welcome back again, So then we should cut off all of the $88 billion in subsidies the oil companies get here in the US and let natural market dynamics take their place and see the gas prices rise then. https://www.politicususa.com/2015/06/09/report-shows-oil-industry-benefits-5-3-trillion-subsidies-annually.html https://www.forbes.com/sites/energysource/2012/04/25/the-surprising-reason-that-oil-subsidies-persist-even-liberals-love-them/#112e41f53279 https://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/business/04bptax.html Depending on how you want to view it, we subsidies OIL companies still, so why not electric auto's? Benefit here is as @Drew Dowdell has pointed out in regards to Uber and Lyft. We will not see ICE auto's go away, but there is no reason to NOT move to cleaner, quieter auto's especially for inner city use over the worst polluters, Diesel and old gas auto's.

I disagree: 1) There is always engineering costs to recover from all work in building something, we see this in everything we design and build, everything has costs to recover. You cannot say that a design of a proper platform that incorporates waterproof motors, electronics, etc. does not have significant engineering costs. Mechanical engineer average wage is $69,019, electrical engineer average wage is $73,368, computer engineer average wage $94,898, auto engineer average wage $73,938. All these costs have to be recovered as you design, implement, test and validate the design and build before you can go into production. These are not trivial costs. There is significant R&D to recover. Static thinking is that electric motors and inverters have not changed. They have and will continue too. 2) As I posted already in the GM thread to you about battery cost reduction you look at this in a very conservative no change approach that costs would not come down. They have and will continue to as they have dropped 24% from 2016 to 2017 at $209 per kWh cost with the focus being on less than $100 per kWh by 2025. This will ripple out into all things and once we move to mass production of solid state batteries with a higher energy density and much faster charging times this will change again. R&D will drive moving forward better ways to build batteries that are denser and more capable than what we have now or only a few years ago. 3) In regards to energy density, it is improving all the time. Oil took millions of years to form and over 100 years to improve it from the crud version used with the initial ICE auto to today's versions sold. Battery density will continue to improve and with the increase in density we will see a decrease in cost due to natural competition of business. TheEnergyStorageFrontierLithiumIonBatteriesAndBeyond_MRSBulletin40106715.pdf For those interested in more details of how the last 5 years have gone with improvements you can read more here: http://www.emvalley.com/?From=Quora

We'll where to begin....... ? Simply, science has proven Global Warming or climate change is Real, no Fraud here. But I get it some like to ignore the facts of science and climate change. Correct, battery charging is no where near gas refueling, but like the start of the ICE auto's, EVs are reducing the recharge time all the time and there is the total REAL convenience factor of just plugging in at home overnight and not having to run to the gas station, smell, dirtiness, etc. We have Level 1 (110V), level 2 (220V), and level 3 (440V) 3 phase. Level 4 is coming 800V as most of the OEMs have agreed to support this XFC or extreme fast charging design that will recharge a 400 mile battery pack in 15 min or less. So just like the start of the auto age with weak motors, poor mpg and slow refueling with manual gas pumps, they improved to what it is today over 100 years. We have already reduced charging times greatly and will do so even more in the next few years. Cost of charging be it public infrastructure or at home will reduce costs for end users compared to the craziness of gas. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-05/latest-bull-case-for-electric-cars-the-cheapest-batteries-ever Correct you are on the price of the 60 kWh battery pack, to be specific it is as of the end of 2017 $12, 540 per battery pack. Yet that price is a 24% drop from the year before and LG who supplies the 60kWh battery pack for the BOLT has already stated they have the cost even lower in 2018. This is just about a 5th of what it was in 2010 and the goal which the auto industry has stated they should achieve is below $100 per kWh by 2025. I TOTALLY AGREE with you about the trade, we have not had free equal trade in generations, politicians have always looked out for their own self interest, not that of this country or the citizens. If they did this, we would have proper control over the craziness of gun ownership and idiots that use them to hurt innocent civilians. To correct this we need level heads with negotiation skills, not bankruptcy manipulation skills of the current leadership. In regards to your last paragraph, I will say that we agree to disagree on some points, I still believe you can have a free trade system that also is balanced with a fair minimum wage to get kids some work experience, not this crap living wage of San Francisco. I believe you can have a decent living standard for workers with Free Trade. Our Democracy is way better than socialism, fascism, dictatorship, etc. that has failed and pretty much bankrupted Europe. Yet our own idiots in DC spending and borrowing against everything for their own self interest are about to bankrupt this country too. Remember, republicans approved borrowing against Social Security and Democrats approved taxing SS this is not an entitlement of the government but a benefit of those paid into it which both parties have then used to give away to court votes. The politicians should be held like the president to term limits, but then I like you have waded into the political arena and Drew killed that forum and asked us to behave the stay away from politics and talk cars. Back to Auto's, Trade needs to be better negotiated than the crap DC has done from current to past administrations, I agree on. Electric auto's are where ICE Auto's were 100 + years ago but are going to surpass the ICE industry as technology will allow better and faster change than what we had in the past. Costs will come down and the jobs will be in alternative energy, EVs, etc. This is NOT a LOSS of Jobs, but a CHANGE of Jobs that will require new skill sets. Dementia / Alzheimer's research has proven that when humans stop learning, stop working out, stop pushing themselves we start to shut down and decay. One must ALWAYS accept change and grow and learn. This way we continue to improve just as we did from Leaded gas to unleaded gas to electric / hydrogen etc. We should ALWAYS find better ways to improve the life we live on this planet and into space as we also find ways to improve how we live on this planet in a healthier cleaner way. Change is inevitable. Those that fight against change will be left behind by those that embrace it and look to the future.

If what Ford says is true that China puts a 40% tariff on auto's exporting into the country then Chinese products should get the same. Tit for tat response but do it in a surgical way so that you have like item for item, not just a stupid blanket all product approach. This is where a REAL business man would sit down to negotiate tariff's on products with a country for equality. I have yet to see anything like that our of DC not just in the last 2 years but like the last 50. We need some real negotiations to adjust and correct the imbalance. I do not blame Ford for speeding up local manufacturing to take advantage of growing China.

I understand that, I am just trying to say that once we recover R&D on the high end of auto pricing, we should be able to move electric powertrains into the low end of auto costs so that you can have a proper $20,000 auto that is pure electric and profitable.

Yet Diesels have been around long enough to have reduced their cost and yet have not. As such, I do expect as the EVs take off prices will come down across the whole spectrum of autos from entry level to Luxury.

With @ocnblu and his BFF!

@dwightlooi Thank you, always enjoyable to read and think about your insight on engines.

5ft bed is more than useful for most buyers, 6ft or 8ft is not needed by the bulk of buyers running to the nursery or Home Depot for weekend projects. Jeep has clearly judged their buyers right as weekend projects or off road play / camping. Commercial work of a 6 or 8 ft bed is covered just fine by GM, Ford and Ram.

Sounds nice, be interesting to see how it rates once the media gets their hands on it and test it against the competition. Glade to see more choices, I am sure it will sell, but to what extent who knows.

Finally posting an updated photo of yourself!

Looks like they borrowed a bit from the Jeep Cherokee in regards to the front end lights.

Have to give them credit for the defined front nose of the car over smooth that everyone else seems to build. Has style, stance and class from what I can see and read. Cool. This I would bet is powered by the same electrical power train as Porsche is using. Should sell well for them.

Sweet, nice ride!

Love the look inside and out, especially the Mocha brown interior just rocks. ONE BIG PROBLEM - Way too much baby boomer Chrome! WTF ?‍♂️ I honestly do not get why people think Chrome on everything makes it look better and is luxury. I hope they have a monochromatic option.

Like the interior two tone burgundy and very clean dash. Should sell well for them.

That would be great, but then that would also mean not funding money loosing defense companies too. There will always be reason to bail out and replace total mgmt like with GM due to the ripple affect of jobs that letting it totally fail would have caused. Much like the saving and loan mess of the 80's and how it would have really destroyed this country if the gov did not step in and take control and force change. Love this car, this is what we need now too.

No one ever told the GOV to sell, they could have waited and recovered, but the idiots in DC wanted to give money to the 1% crowd and over priced defense idiots. Yes I could go very political here, but lets just end it with the GOV and NOT the tax payers or GM sold and took a loss when they did not have to. Idiots in DC trying to tell a profitable company how to make money when they cannot handle a balanced budget. Crazy!

Both sexy looking Auto's to me, thank you for doing this comparison. I agree in pictures it does look smaller but clearly is much bigger.

True, they could probably drop $10,000 if they did RWD only as an option, but right now everything is AWD with Torque Vectoring and I suspect enough people will buy Rivian due to the comfy space inside being full size. Full Size EV is a game changer that no one else has touched yet. I wonder how much GM would charge for a full size RWD and AWD Pickup? ?

We all wondered if the Wheelbase of 3450mm was correct and Rivian says it is as the full length of this SUV is 5040mm. So we have a wheelbase of 135.8 inches or 11ft 3 inches and the overall length is 198.4 inches or 16ft 5 inches. This does not seem bad for a 3 row full size SUV to compete against the Taho / Yukon / Escalade.

Here is the full reveal that was posted online.

These base auto's were very trouble free due to the lack of electronics and ease of maintenance. Think how solid a base auto from any auto company would be if it was all manual with minimal gov required safety devices. It could with proper maintenance outlast many more expensive auto's.

Very true, companies have forgotten that they have to have base model, for people to afford and start out with. I see no reason to not have a base model car that has manual door locks, manual windows, no AC, basic AM/FM radio and minimal electronics as a starter auto for teens / college students.

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