oldshurst442

So that is how the rumour started? From a stupid Motor Trend article? Motor Trend was never a highly reliable source of facts on automobiles and the like, but it has become quite the tabloid media as of late... The dyno test of the C8 last month should gives us a clue as to what drivel comes out of that rag tag mag.

I more inclined to take this approach. @smk4565 mentioned loss leaders. Those are traditionally the entry level cars. The Corvette is NOT by ANY means an entry level loss leader type of car. More often than not, companies lose money on specialty cars like Lexus and its LFA. But that was more of a mismanaged project. Too many engineering changes. And when companies lose money on specialty projects its often because their business model was flawed from the get-go... Corvette has been well thought of for the last 20 years, since the C5 on how to make money on it. A STRONG business case was made to keep it after the C5 AND after the bankruptcy and a strong business plan to make money on its low volume was surely and undoubtedly been implemented.

PS: About the Corvette C8... The rumour is that GM makes money on an 80 000 C8 Vette. They lose money below that. Ok...there is another rumour that the C8 is sold out already... Or the allocation for the year is sold out... Who is to say that the folk that saw the C8 and put a deposit on one went all nuts with the options and most if not all C8s sold will be over 80 000? YOU make it sound like the Vette will be a money loser... I say it will be a MASSIVE money maker right from the get go on its 1st year introduction... Many people want this car... The C8 no matter what price you pay for it, is a steal of a bargain for what you get for a supercar...

VW will lose their shirts in this EV thing...especially when Audi's EV intro is a dud. Porsche wont fair to good either. Dude, its Porsche. The Model S hands its ass to it in performance, and in range. And the Model S is 8 years old now. Tesla's new battery and motor is soon to come. The Roadster will be Tesla sports car and nothing in Porsche's ICE aresenl, never you mind EV will touch the Roadster. The Model S also is going track racing. The Model 3 track pack handles better than the Model S at a track, but now Tesla race engineers are working to get the Model S some track cred....and it looks like it will spank the Taycan's ass in that area too. Porsche....will lose to Tesla in track racing... How phoquing embarssing is that for Porsche???!!! Luxury...give it some time...Tesla will do that too in-house. Tesla Model S owners that are bazillionnaires go aftermarket on the interior. Like some do with Corvettes and restomodded muscle cars... So that is a moot point... The luxury here is the tech. And Tesla wins hands down over the Germans... The Corvette C8... GM is a big big company. The tech they use in Vettes will filter on down to the rest of GM's line-up. The stuff that makes Corvettes lose money BELOW 80 thousand, in time, through economies of scale, will start making money for Corvette... This is the first year for mid-engine tooling and bespoked Corvette mid-engined parts... Let the C8 sell a few thousand on this platform...and then the tooling will be paid off... The C9 and C10 wont have the tooling costs be factored in. The composite materials used in the C8 will be used in the Evs for Cadillac. The electrification of some sensors...communication stuff for internet up-grades a la Tesla starts with the Corvette...and that costs the C8 a ton of money...but...the Tahoe and the Yukon and Suburban and the Escalade will all have that as well...bringing that cost down on the Corvette C8... Not too mention every other GM car going forward... and so forth and so forth... GM has lost money on Corvettes in the past. GM has made money on Corvettes in the past... And most importantly, GM has LEARNED HOW to make money on the Corvette and hence whay the Corvette is with us with a brand new, expensive as hell, loaded up to the gills with tech C8... GM has a zero-zero-zero program by 2030... test mules mean nothing.... test mules are vapour ware I already answered all that in my long post...with the exception of off roading capable EVs... The thing is...Mercedes does not have an off-roading EV either...

Tesla outsells Mercedes in the electrics vehicles department. And THAT is what counts in this topic in this thread. Tesla has better tech than Mercedes. Tesla has better public perception in EVs than Mercedes. Tesla even has MORE profits than Mercedes in EVs... And THAT is saying something, isnt it???!!! And as you put it and if Mercedes does not have what it takes to compete with Tesla, or even Cadillac in the EVs department...no matter when that change happens...that it ABSOLUTELY matters because as you put it...eventually everything will be electric...and if Mercedes fails...and Porsche...than Mercedes and Porsche will join Oldsmobile...and THAT is the bottom line. You could laugh at that...but GM is already selling a BEV. GM already has experienced what real world problems that BEVs face... GM has already learned what to do and what NOT to do with BEVs in the market place. That is a leg up on Mercedes, isnt it? GM has already learned how to compete DIRECTLY with Tesla. Albeit with a product that does not compete with the Model 3, it does as an EV sharing somewhat the same price point... Mercedes is not only behind Tesla, Mercedes is behind GM too... NOT a good place to be in....

Not exactly. IF Cadillac matches at the very least, Tesla in all specs...Cadillac has a fighting chance. Tesla fanbois and EV rabid fanbois, view other EVs, if they dont match Tesla in specs...as COMPLIANCE cars. THAT is the difference. its not all about the Tesla brand. Some of it is also about Tesla technology being what it is. Musk has shown to be a fool. SANE folk dont follow this guy like a God... Tesla fanbois will always buy Tesla...it dont matter what Mercedes or Cadillac do. This is true... But there are Tesla buyers that are NOT fanatics and just want an EV to be at the very least something resembling Tesla specs. Why would a current Tesla owner trade-in his Tesla for a lesser product from Porsh-uh or Mercedes or Audi or Jaguar? He/She WONT! He/She will coninue to buy a Tesla as long as Tesla is on top of that technology. Yes...Mercedes retracted because they KNOW they will fall short in the specs and will take a MAJOR hit in sales BECAUSE of it. They see the Audi and Jaguar sales failures. And its not only about them losing money because of the sales failure...BUT with the public perception of Mercedes FAILING at EVs and that is no bueno for their EV future...like I said...EV fanbois do NOT like EV compliance cars. Maybe they are thinking that that failure might also affect their ICE perception too...who knows??? /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Bottom line is this. Tesla has the technology that out-performs the current state of EVs. REAL competiton for Tesla will happen when all others AT LEAST comes close to what specs Tesla has... Another is product. The right product has to be available for sale. The right sized CUV, nicely styled CUV, etc... If the right product IS available for sale, but the specs fall short of Tesla specs, Tesla will continue to dominate. My last sentence is more like a "duh" statement more than anything else.

LOL I AINT DENYING THAT!!!

I honestly do not know what I want to own next. There is literally NOTHING out there that excites me. Especially when my current car...*sigh*...I hate mentioning it...a 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD is still a pretty good ride for me. Nothing entices me in any brand to part ways with my car. I do not want a CUV. I want a sedan. Sedans are leaving us. I HATE my car's successor from Acura, the TLX. I do like the Buick Regal sportsback or whatever its called. It too will die. But like I said, the Regal does not entice me enough to trade in my current car. I LOVE being car payment free. A Tesla Model 3? Nah...Ill wait out the EV trend until later. When more choices are out there. Although the Mach-E seems cool. But no thanx. A Cadillac CT5? I like. I like a lot. But Id have to buy a CT5 that is fits my mental budget allowance for a car. I dont want to spend MORE that 50 000 CDN including taxes on a car. I think a CT5 could fit that budget. But it also depends what powertrain that includes at that price... But then again, its a Cadillac. I do not see myself as a Cadillac type of a guy. But there is no more Oldsmobile, so Cadillac should do...but...I like being car payment free... Im keeping my car for another 5 years at least. And in 5 years, who knows what will be offered? Unless of course my car suffers from catastrophic failure, and I hope that does NOT happen as Im not really excited by anything as of now.

I will...in due time. I promise.

You contradicted yourself... in the same post...trying to say something negative about EVs... Which is it? Are fanbois and fanatics and the thing they desire emotional? Or Cult-like behaviour is lacking in emotion especially when EVs are concerned and their cult following Tesla and Elon their saviour Musk and having those cult followers drag race their Teslas? PS: I see Dodge fanbois and Dodge Motor Company not giving a shyte about ludicrous mode....its mostly rabid Tesla fanbois that foam around the mouth when it comes to the Hellcat, (these Tesla fanbois ARE excited about their EVs)... The thing is, I see Porsche the Motor Company though, trying to measure up their Taycan to the Model S... That in itself speaks VOLUMES about emotion...negating this part of your post...

Ummmm...NO THEY WONT! Why? Porsche fell very flat on the range part... Only the Porshefiles will buy that the first year and possibly the second year. After that...the Taycan, if Porsche does NOT fix the range part...Tesla will eat its lunch, even with a car that will be approaching a DECADE old...because Tesla has battery packs coming soon that will out perform their old ones... Audi...that EV SUV they got...sold zilch as compared to what Tesla sells as their Model X... and Audi just unlocked some of their battery's capacity JUST to be a tad more competitive in the range department because Tesla is just that much better... https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30199684/porsche-taycan-ev-range/ The Taycan is the LEAST efficient EV... and of course...the Germans never admit fault nor incompetence... But seeing as their sister company Audi also has shyte EV tech...and still only getting 220 miles on their E-Tron...(yeah...battery safety...my ass), it shoudnt surprise us...that VW is nowhere NEAR being on top of the EV world... There is NO cachet for Porsche and Audi in the EV world... And about EV sales... And about that...like I said about Porsche...only the Porschefiles will buy that, but when a Taycan driver comes up to a 1st generation Model S and gets his ass handed to him in range and in speed....yes...the one from 2012, the Taycan driver will no longer be proud of his "Porsh-uh" As for Cadillac, lets see what GM does in the EV world and what Cadillac does with it BEFORE we have an opinion. The Mustang Mach-E is said to rival Tesla in performance and in range. Just like what Porsche said....we will see what the Mach-E will really do. About Cadillac, we do not know what Cadillac has up its sleeve. GM and Cadillac is REALLY REALLY secretive about that. YOU had doubts on what the Vette C8 would do...well the C8 is here and YOU were surprised yet I...told you ONE YEAR PRIOR what the C8 would be alll about... That Mercedes Formula One road car you were proud... The C8 Z06 will be on sale, the Zora hybrid 900 plus HP C8 will be sold, and that M-B Foprmula One thing will still be a pipe dream... The C8 and ALL of its trims will be making everybody drool, including Tesla fanboys, (The Hybrid C8) and YOU will still be waiting on the Mercedes... Mercedes Benz and its EVs... They are being conservative with their announcements, because THEY KNOW they WONT be able to beat Tesla... They saw how Audi and Jaguar has failed in specs and in sales and now Porsche with specs... Mercedes RETRACTED their launch for 2021... I wouldnt be bashing Cadillac if I were you... But...Im not up-selling Cadillac EVs to you... Im being cautious about what Cadillac EV tech is all about. I know one thing, TESLA has EVERYBODY beat... I know another thing though...I also KNOW that Cadillac and GM will NOT drop the ball on their EVs and especially Cadillac's EVs. They KNOW what is at stake. How I know this... I listened to Autoline Detroit After Hours last Thursday and they had Tadge on speaking for the C8... He is own focused GM engineer. The C8 was one focused sports car. I KNOW Cadillac and GM are FOCUSED for EVs... I KNOW these GM/Cadillac EV engineers are gonna hit it!!!

I know what you are saying. And I feel your pain. Im a car guy too after all. And an American car guy on top of that. But...lets be honest about this whole car culture thing. In reality, cars are meant to be driven (hard). Cars are meant to be used and abused until that car can no longer give anymore and it ends up in the scrap heap. We as enthusiasts dont like the term appliance and we as enthusiasts are able to sense which cars are really engineered as appliances and which cars are "special" but in reality, ALL cars are appliances. Even Corvettes and Porsches. And Ferraris. On the opposite spectrum of this. When people buy "non-appliance" cars, such as Ferraris and that 1 of 704 Eldorado Broughams, and store them to be garage queens never to see the road ever is not a good thing either. Like I said, cars are meant to be driven. (Not that you are saying otherwise...) It takes (a lot of) money and/or time to restore these things. Time is money even if you are a mechanic and a machinist... so I could understand why cars like these end up being barn finds... (and Im not saying that you dont understand this either...Im just stating the obvious and just doing my part in communicating and enjoying the conversations we have in here) If I had a second chance at another career choice (I own a very successful hot dog and hamburger restaurant), Id wanna live in the US in one of those sunny and warm States...and Id learn to be a mechanic and machinist and yeah, Id restore old relics like that (on my own time and them sell them at auctions and stuff). But first, to move to the States, Id join the US Air Force and fly around....make Uncle Sam give me my wings, Make Uncle Sam teach me mechanics and machinery, then maybe possibly be a commercial airline pilot and hot rodder...

Agreed. About Cadillac not spending billions trying to convert a close minded shopper. Product should be enough to convert. Agreed. Those concepts are great as is. And yes, they should have been built. And it aint too later to still build them as is as those concepts are still great and look relevant in 2020. Agreed. Prices SHOULD climb to reflect "The Standard of the World" but the little XT4 and CT4 stuff has got to go. Cadillac dealerships SHOULD UNDERSTAND that Cadillac is NOT about volume. But about STATUS.

I get what you are saying. And I agree with. But in order for old names to resonate again, without haters hating, would be to produce a vehicle worthy of the Cadillac brand, and then it does NOT matter what the name of it will be. Even Cimarron , OK...not THAT name, but the name Allante could do just fine as well if and only if, the product is a good one WORTHY of a Cadillac. Now...I aint saying that Cadillac is not producing great products, because they are...I just saying that Cadillac should NOT take ANY steps back going forward regarding style, quality, luxury and all that and ANY name will do. But...also...yes, that picture on top, Fleetwood or even Brougham would be just fine, just as long as it meets and beats the Cadillac criteria of being "The Standard of the World". Because if a car like that has a name like Fleetwood or Brougham, if its just a lazy attempt, then its no bueno and therefore haters will have their voices heard... But at the same time, there may not be a need to use ALL of Cadillac's past names. Id prefer if they go with new names. Those names of those concepts from the 2000s show that Cadillac guys still have the brains to invent new awesome names for Cadillac cars. THIS is what Id prefer. Other than DeVille and Eldorado. Ive explained why I like those names for new Cadillacs.

It may or may not. It grew substantially from the previous gen. True true. And fullsized offering also grew only to be downsized again in 1977. I havent studied the numbers, and Im intrigued (yes, Oldsmobile pun intended...) to see what dimensions the 1973-1977 Cutlass is in relation to the 1977-1990 Caprice. yes. And another generation after how they managed to get most of their platforms to FWD. OK...I heard that the W-Body was botched in the launching causing GM to lose money the first few years, but, one has got to admit, the W-Body as a FWD platform was a very good one and all 4 brands had great cars from that platform whether we want to admit it or not. I wasnt targeting you. I was just trying to be funny. But yeah. I wouldnt touch a Sentra or Corolla though. But you seem to rent cars often because, Im guessing, your line of work? Now...I feel kinda bad for putting you on the spot like that.... NOT!!! ? (yes...a corny 1990s expression...forgive me)

Sedan DeVille, Eldorado are still You beat me to it!!! But Id say Deville could work for an EV SUV. It actually means "of the city". An EV for the city...an urban vehicle? Its a GREAT name for that niche. Eldorado is a given. Eldorado is a very powerful name in Cadillac's names arsenal. In my opinion, there is no other LUXURY car name better than Eldorado. The name literally glistens with GOLD...and its such an ELEGANT name. Yet arrogant and brash. PERFECT for Cadillac... But the name needs a vehicle WORTHY of the name plate. That late 1980s thing was NOT it... The next and last gen Eldorado was a good Eldorado, but Cadillac should have gone BACK to RWD with it. Elmiraj. Escala. Evoq. Ciel. Cien. All concepts. But names that Cadillac could actually use going forward. EV or otherwise. Id nix Fleetwood. That sounds too old. Too Boomer-ish generation. Same with Brougham. Deville and Eldorado are Boomer names too. But when a very hippity hoppoty hip hop rapper artist does a restomod Cadillac and calls it Snoop DeVille, you just gotta know that Deville still has ballz to keep on ballin' with the Millennial crowd. In other words, Eldorado and DeVille STILL resonate with folk. Young and old. Seville? Id keep names of places in retirement.

I never understood the reasoning behind calling a W-Body FWD Impala a fullsized when 20 years prior, the exact same length, width, height and weight RWD G-Bodys were midsiazed and so forth... But today you have opened up my eyes as to why... PS: Id never touch the Sentra. Nor the Corolla. Even as rentals. If I ever do...that would mean that I have given up on life and Im just one short step in ending it all... ? Sorry if I have offended anybody that drives one or the other...

I said dont BS me... I said the 5.3 liter V8 is reliable and durable... The Land Cruiser engine is probably the one that rivals the 5.3 liter V8 in reliabilty...the others not so much...and to boot, you left it as to wonder what engines you are talking about... In other words...I said to tell me what engine choices and trim levels in hierarchy meaning price tags.......and what HP and torque levels each engine you are gonna hit me with...and lastly...REAL WORLD fuel efficient numbers... You just got random numbers going on... There is a reason why GM is still using the venerable 5.3 liter V8. Money is a reason. But if it aint broke, and it meets and beats the competition in certain areas, and as a middle engine offering...then no need to fix it...in other words, no need to waste money on engineering and testing a new mid level engine when the one you got is just as good, if not better in some areas than your competition, then no need to change anything... Its a middle engine choice.... It doesnt have to be a better than the rest base engine for entry level stuff nor does it have the pressure to be the top dog engine in being the best of the best as the top dog engine.... Middle of the pack is just that...middle of the pack...and the 5.3 liter V8 is as good, if not BETTER than what the competition offers...which is good enough for the 5.3 liter V8 where it stands in trim level on the Chevy big utes...

Name the vehicles and engines as compared to where the 5.3 liter V8 resides in hierarchy in trim levels and PROVE this statement to me with links... But...remember that the 5.3 liter V8 is a very reliable and durable engine and its quite hard to quantify fuel efficiency numbers vis-a-vis endurance and reliability...especially with the possible engine choices in vehicles you are maybe gonna be trying to prove something to me...about...just remember to keep your facts...factual...and real...and no BSing me...

This is just subjective bullshyte. You are entitled to your opinion, and I WILL agree with you on the last 4-5 years part that GM is bombing in their looks department... BUT...the Escalade is still under wraps...picture is fuzzy and most of the details of the front end are covered up... While if the Escalade really does ending up being a scaled up XT6 in the front, Ill agree with you that the Escalade will be dud in the looks department, but we BOTH cant come to THAT conclusion UNTIL we get the reveal... So...

You only look at the HP and torque ratings? What about the efficiency numbers? Dont those count? I do not know as I havent researched that, but if you are gonna blow your stack bitchin', at least get ALL the numbers so you could REALLY compare and contrast...and when I mean ALL the numbers, I REALLY mean ALL the numbers... The engine is NOT a completely new design. Like the C8's LT2 engine as compared to the C7's LT1's engine... Im not talking about the redesigning certain components for the LT2 to be used in a mide-engined configuration, I do mean the small changes to the cylinder heads and valve trains to improve combustion efficiency and stuff... This new engine under the hood of these new big Utes, If Im correct, use the new LT2 architecture...but they are TUNED to produce the same HP and torque numbers as the previous models...but Im willing to bet that this new engine is MORE efficient in all the efficient ways that are deemed to be...efficient... C'mon, bro...you are NOT THAT obtuse....

Yeah...that is what Im thinking, but Im also thinking at the same time that it was "leaked" by GM itself to cause some sort of buzz...because Im cynical in their ability to actually market their products properly. yeah...you can actually with even more inspection.

True, but its a "leak", right? But the image and lighting is fuzzy, right? Today's smartphones take photos with 4K quality with a bazillion pixels and have digitally enhanced lighting modes to illuminate the darkness of space in the universe all the while correcting sharpness, but with this photo of the "leaked" Escalade seems like it was taken by an 1870s black and white camera held by a dozen people that took pictures upside down and was colorized with 1960s techniques... The point I wanna make is, there isnt any quality details in the grill to really see how it pops and/or shines... Granted, the new XT4 and XT6's real grill is blacked out and this Escalade pic seems to be in the same vein. But Im sure that even if blacked-out, there maybe an option to bling it out. @dfelt I believe that there will be some sort of luminous bling a la XT6 in that area... Fail or not, its the new face of Cadillac SUVs...

If you just look at the headlights just below that chrome trim, you would realize that there is something that is covering up that area. The area just below the headlights and just to the sides of the grill. We do not know what is there, it just looks like a black piece of nothing-ness... But...we like to moan and bitch and complain... I bet you, even if those headlights are not extended by another set of luminous features, there must be something else to "POP" making the front end be more in line of what an Escalade should be... Patience people....PATIENCE!!! The Escalade has ALWAYS been stunning to look at minus the very first GMC badge engineered one...

As far as my personal favorite GM engine from one of its brands? Im too young to have actually experienced true Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Buick engines from that time period. I owned a very tired 1985 Olds 88 but to this day I do not know what was under the hood. It was a Canadian car, did it have a Chevy/GM 305 underneath? I dont know... I read in these forums that Old's own 307 could have been under the hood since Olds' 307 was a go to engine in the 1980s...and it was an Oldsmobile that I owned to begin with. But like I said, it was old and tired by the time I owned it. I did drive a 1979 6.6 liter Trans Am for a good chunk of the day one time a long time ago..... But was it an Olds engine under the hood or was that the Pontiac one? I had the pleasure to drive a very mint 1977 Cadillac Coupe de Ville a couple of years ago, and I believe that it had the 425 cubic inch engine in it. But driving it once around the block does not really help in forming an opinion on a thread like this. In other words, I have no real life experience to really answer this... I have experienced 305s, 350s, from Chevy. I have experienced Northstar and Aurora V8s. I have experienced Buick's 3.8 V6. I think by default, Chevy's 305 and 350 from the 1980s and 1990s but really 4rth gen ponycars from the 1990s LT1 and LS1 wins hands down...