oldshurst442

Maybe pre-production model and maybe that is why trim is missing and door misaligned and tail-lights not finished? Maybe its a legit production model, but the owner of this particular Model X is a aloof about his possessions and dont really treat his car right and tail-light is busted due to the fact he backed-up into something and is taped up and the trim that is missing...maybe its a wintery area that he lives in and when his window was frozen shut with freezing rain, he hammered the phoque out of the ice to de-ice his electric CUV and in turn, phoqued up his trim? About the door being misaligned? Maybe his children hang on to that door when it opens and closes like its a roller coaster ride at an amusement park? I know one thing...my wife's 2013 Ford Fusion exterior trim has fallen out, FoMoCo has fixed the problem and replaced. Long story and huge job but FoMoCo did have an issue with the first Fusions with the chrome trim along the doors...

And the irony of that, if Im not mistaken, 'twas older folk that bought Scions. Scion was not introduced in Canada. Only the last couple of years of the Scion brand did Toyota bring Scion to Canada. I hardly know anything about the brand and its cars. Im not that interested in the brand anyways to tell you the truth.

I guess!!! Im no connoisseur of Volvos nor lifted sedans with all wheel drive or crossovers for that matter so I did not even know this Volvo even existed!!! My Acura TL SH-AWD is a...sedan...with...all wheel drive. But she is hunkered down and she is marketed as a sports sedan. A corner-carving, family hauler that could be driven quite well in the snow, but more of the drifting in the snow kind rather than the going through it. With a name like cross-country, Im guessing this Volvo is marketed more of a plowing through type 4x4. But yeah...I think the crossover craze will beget more and more Volvo Cross-Countries and Sport Utility Sedans.

There is no amount of SUVs and CUVs that a car maker should have that we as posters could quantify. The market decides that. The amount is what the market demands. If that means 5 max per brand or be it 10 max per brand. But there is no way that we could assess that as we dont know what kind of growth these crossovers are having. It seems to me that SMK's assumption of 10 is closer to the truth than that of Riviera's 5. In my opinion, crossovers are replacing sedans. In my opinion, crossovers ARE the new sedans. This is unfortunate for a guy like me who does not enjoy this type of vehicle. This is why I have been silent lately in the forum. The news is about all kinds of new crossovers that were revealed at the NYC auto show. Be it the Lincoln Aviator or the Cadillac XT4 or the new RAV4 or Subaru. I only read the articles for the Cadillac and the Lincoln. Glanced over is more accurate. But there is a little light at the end of the tunnel...maybe. Either sedans get super nichey and super finely tuned because now sedans are gonna be rare and only to be sold to enthusiasts. Therefore sport sedans are gonnna get really really good and really really sporty along the lines of a finely tuned sports car, which will be right up my alley... Or, they are gonna be super super crappy and left to rot on the vine... One niche of CUV or SUV, I think, will come about is the CUV or SUV that will have a trunk instead of a hatch... Cargo isolation, trunkification. Sport Utility Sedan. The SUS. Probably slightly more lifted than the Legacy is now. Lifted slightly to resemble a CUV or SUV. Kinda like the Eagle...if the Eagle Wagon 4 door and coupe was the true beginnings of the CUV, then Subaru might have stumbled upon the next big thing in the SUS...(Sport Utility Sedan and their cargo isolation, trunkification commercial.)

All what was said and done in this thread. Yes. It all comes down to communication and respect, on both parties.

That's because you are not a hoser, eh.

Dont get me wrong. I could be a little bastard with some customers...but the ones that Im a bastard to are the ones that manipulate the situation to get free shyte from me. LIE that they had a hair in their food. Or try to be confusing and not clear when ordering so the order gets messed up so they could cause a scene to embarrass the staff and the establishment to bully us to a free meal... I could see that shte a mile away...and I guess that would be akin to tire kickers that truly waste salespeople times.... Or the ones that use a quote from one salesman and then leave that dealership and go to another one and try to get another salesman to beat that quote... Or the truly indecisive ones that have no clue what it is the need or want... Or the ones that want to buy a Bentley Mulsanne with a Chevy Cavalier budget...(I get those types in my restaurant....they order a shyte load of food, they want cheese on a burger and flip out on the 75 cents I charge for extra cheese...then they start eliminating stuff from their order because apparently Im too expensive and then they pay with a credit card...and sometimes that credit card dont work... ) But I take all that with a smile....because the other customers in the restaurant all listen to how I handle that and when I take it in like a champ, they realize how shyte that client was and how nice I was (my partner and my staff included) and then they come back to my restaurant instead of that McDonald's next to me...OK...sometimes they go to the McDonald's next to me...a Big Mac will ALWAYS be a Big Mac...) But the ones that want to ROB me trying to FOOL me dont fare too well with me...I do NOT hold back. If we are at fault and there truly was a hair in their food, or we truly messed up their order, THAT is a different thing and we are very very sorry for it and we compensate for it...yes with a reimbursement of the complete meal AND we re-do whatever they want us to re-do...ONLY if we truly are at fault. But yeah...in the restaurant business, Id say there are MORE dipshytes in MY industry as some try to take advantage of the old adage "The customer is always right". I get those types almost on a weekly basis. Well...it used to be weekly. Now its more of a monthly thing. People know NOT to phoque around in MY restaurant. But they also know that our service is next to excellence! I say yes to the poutine! But everytime I have one at the store, I dont feel like working right after. It stuffs you and it makes you lazy afterwards. A hotdog at a baseball game is AWESOME...sadly...Montreal does not have a baseball team anymore. (I do eat hotdogs sometimes at my kids games...but not last year as a coached last year. No time was had for eating. We spent are time...WINNING!!!! Thinking about doing the same this year. ) Soon though...Montreal will get my beloved Expos back!!! I usually go burger and fries or 2 hotdogs and a poutine at a fast food joint. Depending really on my appetite. I got no preference. I HATE onion rings. I HATE serving them too! We have McCains Frozen rings at our restaurant. They are good. I just never took to onion rings.

OK.. Now that I ranted. I wanna make sure that everybody, especially Frisky, understands that I empathize with car salespeople. I understand the dilemna they go through. I read this part of what Frisky wrote and I totally get what he is talking about. But my rant and hatred of the industry is not directed towards the foot soldiers on the ground, the salespeople. Frisky's quote on top is understood. It was understood way before he even wrote that. When I buy a new car, I make sure I am as forthright as I possibly could with the salespeople. Yes...I do visit multple dealerships (the cars that I wanna buy, not multiple dealerships of the same brand to compare and contrast price quotes) to get a feel of what I wanna buy and own. I do make test drives. I dont buy right away. This process will take a year to 6 months before I trade in my old car for the new one... I have a plethora of cars in my mind at this point. I usually dont wanna talk to anybody at this point. But when I have decided what 2-3 cars I want, I only re-visit those dealerships when the time is near to buy. I dont talk price...I only ask what price the car starts at and at what price it ends approx. I do ask questions at a salesperson, but I tell him I aint buying yet. (Yes I get pressure sometimes...I deal with it as it comes...different solutions for different scenarios...) But when I buy, I make sure I see the salesperson that I always talked to, and then I tell him its time. Today I buy. Then the price talk begins. Yes I haggle, but I dont haggle to the point it gets nauseating for him and for me. And I haggle on the price of the car that is in the showroom or in the parking lot...I make sure I buy what the dealership has got on the lot. The sales manager only comes to see me to congratulate me on the purchase. On occasion they dont have the trim I want and only then does the manager use his computer on me, to locate the car that I am buying... If I visited a Buick dealership and a Lincoln dealership and an Acura dealership and I made all 3 salespeople from their respected brands give me a small low down on the cars, gave me a test ride on them, and I bought the Acura...was it a waste of time for the Buick guy and the Lincoln guy that spent maybe an hour or two each with me over the course of 6 months? This is where I was butting heads with Frisky. That was the angle I was shooting from. I understand his angle. And in no way do I mean any disrespect to him or to his profession.

Impulse buy for the most part Im guessing. And that maybe 1 reason why some customers are defensive...are slow to buy...are indecisive.

Yes...undeciseveness is deadly. Its deadly in life. On the baseball field it will lose you the ballgame. On the warfront, it will cost yours and your platoon's life... In business with the public, its a a pisser. But in serving people...its a fact of life. I have customers who cant decide between a french fry or Onion ring. A hotdog or hamburger... So between a Forrester vs. an Escape Vs. a Cherokee may be anathema for some. And its understandable. And if you dont see the reasons why...especially when I gave you a little restaurant anecdote, then nothing I will tell you will make you understand... Like I said. The dealership industry is sick. It needs more than chicken soup and a day at home to rest to fix. When the people that sell view the people that buy as the problem, God help this industry...

If I want to see what cars there are in this world...how is it a waste of my time? I go into hardware stores all the time. Looking at tools. At these hardware stores, the drills are on display for the people to manhandle... Drills, dont change as much as cars do... If I tell a salesperson that I aint ready to buy now...the salesperson HAS NO CHOICE BUT TO TAKE MY WORD FOR IT!!! THIS IS A RESPONSE TO THE ORIGINAL T.O. DISCUSSION... If a dude is wasting your time, asking you not only what is under the hood of XYZ car, but trying to ask you on a date...then yeah...waste of time...I NEVER EVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THAT. However, it is in the nature of your "profession" to ASSIST every single consumer that enters your dealership. BUT...if they say no thanx, then NO THANX it is...as per the OP then no Turn Overs. If a guy enters my restaurant and asks me a million and one questions about what ingredients my hamburger bread has got because of allergies in the middle of a lunch rush and monopolizes the time of my cashier for 10 minutes and my cashier cant serve the literally 20-30 REGULARS...and then he just orders a coke, then changes that to a diet coke...then yeah. A WASTE OF TIME! But...PART OF THE BUSINESS! And...GREAT SERVICE ON THE PART OF MY CASHIER! And you know what...THAT customer is now a...REGULAR! And THAT happens in MY restaurant. ALL. THE. TIME! I had cashiers roll their eyes in the past when that happened when customers do that. I dont let my cashiers roll their eyes. I tell them to smile! I tell them to kiss ass. And you know what? Not only do these customers come back to my restaurant and eventually become regulars...even if its only a once a week or once a month regular, but these customers tip the tip jar quite well! And...comparing a 10 dollar meal to a 30 000 dollar transaction is ludacrous! But...its funny how MY customers DEMAND all the ATTENTION required and ALL THE ASS KISSING done by my staff and myself for a lousy 20 bucks, even if they dont plop that amount today and if its only for tomorrow...but for 20 000 bucks...its called waste of your time... SHAKING MY HEAD IN DISBELIEF! Oh...I have! I bought two new houses in my lifetime brand new from the ground up. New construction. You dont know HOW MANY times I busted their balls (both houses in two different areas) BEFORE SIGNING... 6 months before signing. My wife visited (both houses) the model house at least 50 times each. No joke. (several model homes...to see what she liked) When I sold my 1st house to buy and move in the 2nd house. That 1st house...I had a couple looking to buy my house come to visit me 5 times. Never made an offer. I had to even leave my house and let them be alone for 15 minutes. Never made an offer. Waste of time? Lets just say my realtor and their realtor were kissing their ass and smiling at them. What could I do? Do the same... In a year you said? Trust me...realtors remember you. They dont lose your number and they make sure you are taken care of. (the ones that have the drive to sell that is) Mind you, that is with folk who wanna buy... Fakers is one thing...YOU are talking about the fakers. Im not! But as with fakers...its part of YOUR job to cater to them regardless. But it goes back to YOUR industry to COMPENSATE you for YOUR time...THAT WOULD BE YOUR INDUSTRY'S LACK OF RESPONSIBILITY TOWARDS YOU, NOT THE CONSUMER'S!!! No they are not... Window shopping IS a thing. Actually, window shopping is what MAKES THE CAPITALIST MARKET GOING! ITS ALL TIED TO FREEDOM OF CHOICE AND IMPULSE BUYING! Problem is...impulse buying an iPhone does less damage to your pocket than a $50 000 sports car...but that is the thing... One one hand, the message is dont window shop but the other is, go ahead, impulse buy... No! Dont cross shop. Dont use MY numbers against me. Dont waste MY time. Dont bother me. Only bother me when you want to buy NOW. Dont lie to me. I will lie to you, but dont you dare lie to me. Dont see another car. Dont leave without seeing my manager Dont Dont Dont Dont come in when its busy. Come when we are closed. Why do you want to sit in the car if you aint buying now. Why arent you buying now? OMG...you are not ready? Why? You did not see in the car? Well, dont sit in the car unless you wanna buy now? You got questions to ask me? Are you buying today? No?! Then you are wasting my time! You dont have a budget? You should know that cars cost between 10 000-100 000 dollars. You should know what price you want to buy. You should know what kind of car you should be buying. But dont tell me you are not ready so dont ask me questions because you are wasting my time. And herein lies the problemm... YOU dont deem YOUR time is worth it... But YOU want a person to fork over tens of thousands of dollars without a blink of an eye... Like I said...YOUR industry is sick... I say that to my clientelle for a lousy 5 dollar burger and I will close my doors immediately...

That would NOT be the consumer's fault... THAT would be how your PAY structure is formed... Like I said, the industry needs to change. If you are getting paid ONLY if you sell a car...take it up with your industry. I read about the part where the conversation lead to the service industry... YOUR job as a salesman IS to service everybody that comes in to your dealership. If I wanna take 1 year to look at cars THEN to buy....lit is MY right to do so as a consumer... YOU say its a waste of time for a salesman to cater to folk like that? If YOUR industry PAID you by the hour, if YOUR industry PREPARED YOU to SELL cars PROPERLY, if YOUR industry COMPENSATED YOU like YOU deserve and NOT like a piece of meat, if YOUR industry TREATED YOU like a PROFESSIONAL than MAYBE consumers would TREAT YOU like professionals too... Instead what we got...is salesmen looking at consumers like THEY are the problem like shyte you just told us... YEAH! There are some cars that DO NOT change in 2 years... Sure, the kid's opinions on what kind of car he like to own WILL change, but you know what? The more cars you see, the more you know what YOU LIKE! A dealership IS A STORE!!! FIRST AND FOREMOST!!! Who are YOU to tell a consumer when he can or cannot visit? I told you, do NOT put the onus on the consumer for the downfalls of YOUR industry... What difference does it make to a salesman what the consumer tells you? If a consumer has his guard up...there is a REASON for him to be THAT defensive... Maybe it is true that he is looking to buy 6 months from now... Like I said...if YOUR industry gave salespeople ALL the TEACHINGS on HOW to sell properly, lessons on what the car you are selling, what features it has got...yes...real lessons, instead of just making the salesperson learn on his own, paid salespeople an hourly wage, a FAIR hourly wage, a recognition that car salespeople are professionals, that the industry itself BECOMES professional...then salespeople would NOT look at consumers like they are a problem... Like how phoqued up is the phoquing industry when salespeople are looking at people coming into a store a when salespeople do NOT get the answer they are looking for...they view THAT as wasting time? Wasting time? Yeah...lets tackle this... Its a STORE! A DEALERSHIP IS A STORE.... OPEN FOR BUSINESS. And look....all those people...kicking the tires on all these products... What is the point? Technology changes every 6 months, right? So why bother informing yourself? yes, a used car that you like today will not be there tomorrow if you dont buy it now! And yes...decisiveness IS a waste of time....BUT ITS A FACT OF LIFE IN YOUR INDUSTRY!!! LIKE I SAID...LET THE INDUSTRY PAY FOR YOUR TIME... No...you dont sell cars, your ass is gone. But maybe, if the industry ADAPTED its technique, maybe just maybe, consumers would be more sympathetic towards their salesperson...

Actually...many Americans have spoken... Pontiac Oldsmobile Mercury Plymouth All victims to brands like Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Hyundai, KIA... Cadillac struggling to get American car buyers to buy their cars. BMW, Audi, Mercedes kick its ass in the sales department in the US. Volume is NOT the purpose...but sales are still needed... Buick STILL not a player in its segment. BMW, Audi, Lexus kicks its ass... Dodge and Chrysler are near death. Who knows what the Fiat part of FCA will do with Chrysler and Dodge? You dont have to like what I say....but you cant deny my thought process aint valid...

Question remains to be answered. It may be a fool's errand. But PSA wants to try to sell here. Hyundai came to our shores in the 1980s when it the US car market was saturated. Toyota, Honda and Datsun/Nissan launched luxury brands during this same time frame in the US and Canada. Let it be known that we are still talking about the famous 1983 time-line... Fiat and Alpha Romeo and Renault were here, so was Peugeot and during this time, they left us... Yugo too...come and gone GM in introduces Saturn to the world... Daewoo...come and gone. Since then, Hyundai introduces KIA and the Japanese luxo brands have survived and thrived. But Pontiac, Plymouth, Oldsmobile, Mercury have gone away. Saturn. SAAB. All gone. What does Peugeot stand to do? Who knows? Maybe KIA will leave the US if Peugeot thrives. I like KIA cars. They look good. So do Peugeot cars. KIA is still trying to find itself. Maybe Peugeot pushes them out. Peugeot has got some interesting CUVs and SUVs... Maybe Dodge and Chrysler goes away... I dont want THAT scenario to happen, but let's face it...MOPAR was good as dead way back in 2009...all we did was just prolong the agony. Maybe Peugeot steals some Chevy and Ford CUV sales and small car sales... Its not as if Chevy and Ford light up American hearts in the small car arena...they do alright, but maybe Peugeot do bettter. Another foreigner company coming here to break American car companies? Sure! Do I like that scenario? NO! But I did answer your question as to how I see things... If Americans have bought the crappy Hyundai Pony and Stellar and Excel and NOW Hyundai not only sells us KIAs but luxury Genesis cars...ANYTHING could happen!!! Its funny... Why? Some of us have held grudges and wont accept Pig-nots, but some of us have forgiven about Hyundai shyte, and Toyota shyte (Toyopet), but some of us also STILL hold grudges against our very own. Rest in Peace Oldsmobile Pontiac Plymouth Mercury Why do I carry on with this? Because caring about the domestic automotive scene and NOT losing it has since loooong past! WE should have NEVER have let GM and Ford and Chrysler get away with the shyte they shoved us, but at the same time, we should have NOT BOUGHT ther shyte that the Germans and the Japanese shoved at us also... Now we question Peugeot? Acura Lexus Infiniti Hyunadai Kia Genesis BMW Mercedes Audi Toyota Honda Mazda Nissan Hyundai We should have said PHOQUE YOU to those a LOOOOONG time ago and NOT accept them as we have!!! What does Peugeot or Citroen have to compel us? I do not know the answer to that! But its sure as hell more interesting than a Chevy Sparx or Ford ecosport or anything small Dodge/Chrsyler has to offer us... I do not like being this way... But I do not like the tone of some of us in here either. PSA is indeed an interesting car company. Far more interesting than what Hyundai was back in the 1980s. And far more interesting in what FCA has to offer. Maybe Im wrong though...

True...so did GM though... But...GM got out that funk. Right? So did Peugeot.

JD Power? Or was it these Buicks that traditionally won best brands for quality... Remember..we are initially talking about the year 1983, give or take a couple.

1983? Wow! Doncha think we are holding the grudge a tad too long? Aurora? As in Oldsmobile? Lets see now...Oldsmobile in 1983... https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a6599/top-automotive-engineering-failures-oldsmobile-diesels/ About the grudge...I get pissy when people cant let go of GM's malaise era... This aint no different! Well... Related to the link above and the rebuttal to your post Peugeot made no worse cars than GM did in the 1980s. Peugeot in Europe today makes cars that could be present day equivalent Oldsmobiles. They are elegant, sporty, modern and luxurious. I dont know about their quality, but they cant be no worse than what GM puts out with Buick. You know, the brand that technically replaced Oldsmobile in North America as Buick was almost dead in North America when GM pulled the plug on Oldsmobile. Buick DID inherite Oldsmobile cars...the Rainier, the Lucerne. To answer your question even further...the American people did hold a grudge with crappy GM products of the mid to late 1970s all the way to the 2000s...when GM declared bankruptcy...when Saturn and Pontiac and Oldsmobile died... Reliability today you ask once more? Again...cant be no worse than our very own domestic brands... So...before you folk try to lynch me...take some time to notice and acknowledge what is my avatar and more importantly...what my name is on this site... To boot, that is the name I will ALWAYS go with on anything automotive... Alls I wanna say is...if you wanna wave the American flag. GREAT! WAVE IT! But you dont hae to justify the pride by denouncing anybody...

I agree 100% with ALL that you said... Except that quote which I quoted you on... I agree with the fact that the salesperson is doing his job. I also agree that the dealership is there solely to sell cars, and that they need to sell cars any which way they see fit... But...a dealership IS a store. A dealership IS open DURING BUSINESS hours to ACCEPT POTENTIAL customers. A POTENTIAL customer SHOULD be ABLE to VISIT a dealership DURING business hours...NOT before or AFTER business hours. Yes...the salesman NEEDS to sell cars to live and he needs to do his job the way his boss tells him to. We discussed that. As a potential customer though... I NEED TO VISIT A DEALERSHIP WITHOUT THE CONSTANT HARASSING IF I WANT TO BUY THE CAR TODAY. I NEED THE BREATHING ROOM TO SEE FOR MYSELF. A SIMPLE NO THANX SHOULD BE ENOUGH... If a dealership thinks that if a potential client leaves the dealership and that dealership equates THAT as a loss of a sale to another dealership...MAYBE THAT dealership should CHANGE the way they do business and leave the 1950s/1960s/1970s/1980s/1990s where they belong. IN THE PAST!!! Yes. Yes. Yes. I understand that there is a plethora of undetermined, uninformed morons out there that NEED this type of sales tactic even though they say they dont... But...the salespeople and the managers NEED to IDENTIFY the differences between the many types of buyers... The dealerships...should invest in TEACHING their salespeople HOW to sell to people in the 21st century. The DEALERSHIPS need to get together ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY and CHANGE the INDUSTRY around... INSTEAD OF FIGHTING with the PHOQUING customer...the PHOQUING INDUSTRY NEEDS TO CHANGE THIS! NO! Not the CUSTOMER...HE JUST WANTS TO BUY A PHOQUING CAR. ITS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PHOQUING INDUSTRY TO CHANGE... STOP BLAMING THE CUSTOMER AND PUTTING THE ONUS ON HIM!!!

Yeah...well... My car company is known for PROSPERITY, FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY!!! Dont forget Rock-N-Roll!!! YOUR car company is know for HOMICIDE, GENOCIDE and...and...SUICIDE...

Its all about the roll-over safety. Yes...yes...the M-B coupe's roof is engineered to not collapse in case of a roll-over.... I applaud the fact that Mercedes Benz went all out to make a pillar-less roof. Its a good thing in my book. But for modern coupes.... This is my #1 side profile that I prefer. Tied with this guy 2nd place belongs to this guy And then everybody else... What I like about this guy 1. pillar-less roof line 2. Long hood, short deck styling. But they all do that... 3. That is about it. The lines are just as conservatively boring as the ATS coupe. If you noticed, the Infiniti, The Challenger anf the Mustang all have hips....I like hips. I like curvy. In my women and in my cars... The Mercedes Benz and the ATS are androgynous, sexless... Not my style man. Not. My. Style.

Which reminds me... My favorite car of all time is EXACTLY what you folk are kvetching about...(the wheelbase of MY favorite car of all time just ekes it out, I guess!) Oh YEAH!!! I aint judging here..but none of those coupes hold a candle to MY favorite car of all time... Wait a minute...I lied...here comes the JUDGE!

I really dont know if I like it...or hate it. It has nothing to do with me hating Toyota. Im just not sure how I feel about how it looks. Id say me hatin' on Toyota is but a small factor. Id also say me not being into small hatches all that much would be another small factor. But those two things do not amount to anything as to how really confused I am about the design of this new Corolla. Sure there are design features that really suck on it when looking at those elements by themselves. But as a whole, those design elements that suck on it really work on it...as a whole... Yes, Tokyo has weird car culture and that translates to really weird and ugly (to us) design languages...but that does not mean that I should be hatin' on this car. To which why Im confused. Because I have come to terms with weird Japanese car culture, and this new Corolla really really is cool when you consider Japanese car culture. THAT is the part I like about it. Just like the Nissan Juke. Ugly mofo, but I LOVE it! Kia Soul (Not Japanese but Oriental non the less), ugly thing, but I LIKE it. The only weird lookin' Japanese car I did not like was the Nissan Cube. OK...Ill just say that I like this new Corolla since there is nothing about it that truly makes me wanna hate it. Yes its ugly, but I like it!

Chevrolet Malibu Chevrolet Impala Honda Accord Probably the victims of their respective brands equivalent CUVs cannibalizing their sales. Also, the Malibu and the Impala probably compete with each other for the remainder sedan sales. And for the Impala, we add the Lacrosse and now the Regal... As for the Accord, we could add that the new larger Civic also steals sales. AND, the TLX...for those that want a sedan from the Honda corporate company but prefer having the Acura badge instead of the Honda one.

1988 huh? Well, I did drive a 1986 Celebrity in Montreal from 1990-1994 (daddy's car, family car)i n Montreal wintery weather that is on par to Minnesota's winter. Actually, Im still living in Montreal. This thread is right up my alley. So...we WILL go back into time and I WILL tell you what FWD car I liked then. 1989 Pontiac Grand Prix TURBO. Yes yes....the year should be 1988 and not 1989. The 1988 Grand Prix was dope, but the Mclaren Turbo version was doper... but as a family car, I think I remember to have liked the Bonneville SSE.

I think it IS a business model. To see what sticks. Eliminate what doesnt. Find what works and go that way, get rid of what doesnt. And yes, eventually, they trim the fat. But not without creating a fan base for their vehicles. Even the models that did not sell all the well, still had some buyers...they were in THAT showroom. And now that their vehicle wont be coming back, maybe they had a good experience with that model and will be back in that very showroom buying another M-B... I know what I just said could be challenged with brand loyalty data...it still does not change the fact that even with the slow selling models, people got to experience a BMW or Mercedes Benz vehicle. That is MORE than Cadillac since Cadillac has NO models that these people would consider buying as Cadillac lacks many many products in many many niches... And yes, Cadillac or GM, other than Corvette or Camaro or the V Series Cadillacs, are not daring greatly. And I dont mean speed, but awesome engineering and taking chances and growing the brands that are Camaro, Corvette or V-Series...