oldshurst442

Exactly like that! Congrats, you now have entered into my world successfully!

Threads that go BUMP in the night!

Pushing buttons. I sometimes like pushing buttons to grind them gears... Pushing buttons is what I do best. Yes. Yes. That ancient phone is there for sarcastic, smart aleck smartphone reasons!

It is of my own personal observations that I deem sub-brands a failure. Sub brands that fail from my own observations are sub-brands that should have never been brought forth as the existing brand could do the job perfectly had the billions of R&D money been spent PROPERLY on the cars from the brand that exists... Saturn and Scion come to mind. GM spent billions trying to improve on quality and new manufacturing techniques by introducing Saturn with all new factories, workers and dealership networks.... Imagine what miracles Chevy, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick and Cadillac would have done had these billions been spent on them? Toyota did the same for SCION because the Toyota brand became too dull and bland and full of geezers buying into the Toyota brand. SCION was geared for the young crowd, but geezers bought SCION. Imagine how Toyota the brand could have reversed this trend if Toyota the corporation would have spent the money correctly in giving the youth what they wanted in AFFORDABLE Supra sports cars, sexy Celicas and the like? Anyway....back to Mercedes Benz. I think this will fail too. WHY? Because Mercedes Benz has name recognition as it is.... Awesome name recognition. Mercedes should use this to beat up on Tesla on name alone. If the appropriate money was spent on engineering a great EV that is that beats up on a Tesla. This way, by creating an EV sub brand....they limit their financial resources to actually engineer a great EV... BMW's iBrand in no way trounces Tesla's engineering...THAT is why BMW is failing... SMART and Maybach also lead me to believe that Mercedes Benz has no phoquing idea how do sub-brand. General Motors may have failed with Saturn....and they failed with Lasalle... But Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick (still alive and kickin') did succeed. Pontiac and Oldsmobile died because Saturn and SAAB stole the necessary funds to do things right.... OK...money was bleeding form the late 1970s....other factors killed GM's umbrella formula. But Pontiac and Oldsmobile were downright popular brands that lasted 100 years!

^^^ I went from a +1, to a 0, to a -1 faster than a 427 Shelby Cobra 0-100-0 time! And you Mr. DFELT got a -1 for encouraging me! You know what is funnier than that Mr. DFELT... Its that the nice piece of art showing how millennial humans have sex is somewhat a depiction of reality... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/weird-news/the-sex-selfie-stick-lets-you-facetime-the-inside-of-a-vagina-10080436.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2593943/aftersex-selfie-trend-goes-viral-Instagram.html HOLY COW!

I STOPPED doing numbers slightly over a decade ago. I realized and learned that Any Given Sunday, performance numbers WILL vary because of many many many factors. These factors change from one speed track to the next, from one moment to the next, minutes later and even vary the same moment because even the side by side tracks will be different to each other. Day temperatures, barometer readings, sea level, oxygen levels, driver performances, tires...old, new, shredded, not properly warmed up, racing slicks, stock street tires, prepped track versus street quality road surfaces...a surface full of tire debris or a spillage of some type of liquid be it fuel, oil, prestone, and the clean up crew cleaned it up properly or didnt or the clean-up residue is still present or the remnants of the spillled liquid is still there... the car itself not being a consistent performer....see the C4 Corvette ZR-1.... yada yada yada... However... Just to cool down 'Bong's jets about the Camaro ZL-1 because he likes to bash the Mustang so much.... http://blog.caranddriver.com/zl1-derful-chevy-prices-camaro-with-650-horsepower-lt4-from-62135/ From CarandDriver using Chevy's probably conservative figures... The Hellcat was PROVEN to do 11.2 @ 125 MPH on skinny ass tires and a curb weight of 4400lbs...on a race prepped track http://blog.caranddriver.com/0-to-1320-feet-in-what-chrysler-posts-2015-dodge-challenger-srt-hellcat-14-mile-time/ Huge performance numbers here for both cars.... But like I said.... 'Bong likes toot toot toot the excellence of execution card.... Take note that I dont give a shyte about performance numbers because: I STOPPED doing numbers slightly over a decade ago. I realized and learned that Any Given Sunday, performance numbers WILL vary because of many many many factors. These factors change from one speed track to the next, from one moment to the next, minutes later and even vary the same moment because even the side by side tracks will be different to each other. Day temperatures, barometer readings, sea level, oxygen levels, driver performances, tires...old, new, shredded, not properly warmed up, racing slicks, stock street tires, prepped track versus street quality road surfaces...a surface full of tire debris or a spillage of some type of liquid be it fuel, oil, prestone, and the clean up crew cleaned it up properly or didnt or the clean-up residue is still present or the remnants of the spillled liquid is still there... the car itself not being a consistent performer....see the C4 Corvette ZR-1.... yada yada yada... This is SOLELY to keep 'Bong from using stupid childish superlatives like "annihilate".... Alpha Camaro ZL-1 should EASILY be ANNIHILATING a soon to be 3 year old Hellcat that weighs 4400 lbs that everybody by now knows that the Challenger uses crappy, skinny assed tires... FAIL FOR ZL-1 is how I sees it.... (which I really dont, I just thought Id play the same childish game he does!)

And just to show you Im jokin' and not trollin' Sorry to hear about that, mate!

I know most new car buyers are older, and most 20-somethings or the average 20-something isn't buying a $30k new car. I said the 20-somethings there are buying cars, there are some out there, or maybe even in the 25-34 demographic that are going to buy a new car for $25-29k, there isn't much choice, except a rental spec Camaro or Mustang. In 2002 a V8 Camaro was $22,300, the same as a Camary XLE. Todays Camry XLE is like $26,000. Now todays V6 is also 2002's V8. In 2014 $24,700 was the price of a Camaro V6, now it is $29k for a base V6. Nearly $5,000 increase in 2 years. Put any options on that car (like $1,500 for an automatic transmission) and you get to $35k really quick, even for the 4-cylinder car. The Scion tC is $19,300 right now, and has 180 hp, Toyota could easily make a Celica for $20k base. It is a Corolla chassis with a coupe body and pick a corporate 4-banger to put in there, even the Camry's 4-cylinder/6AT in a 2,900 lb car or whatever a tC weights can feel peppy to drive. We aren't talking sub 6 second 0-60 time, but it could be a sporty looking car with some fun factor for younger buyers. And do you think 20 something year olds could have afford Camry XLE price tags? Like I said... Civic Si and Golf GTIs were the cars that mommy and daddy bought for them. How much did those go for? 15 000? Pontiac Firefly turbos and Cavalier Z24s... Asuna Sunfires... Ford Probes too. Those being the most expensive that the average joe 20 year old bought with mommy money! Camaro LT1 V8s were out of their reach... A 2002 GTI bas was $19,460, VR6 had an MSRP of $20,845. The GTI 337 (limited edition) was $22,775. Base 2002 Camaro $19,015 and the Z28 (LS1 V8) was $23,430. They were pretty much the same price. I dont know if you will clearly see it.....and I dont know who gave you that +1... But both of you need a bonk over the head.... From the Motor Trend May 1997 issue...from their road test review way back when MT actually kept their data this way..... VW GTI/ '96 base price/as tested 16 000/16 700 VW GTI VR6 '96 base price/as tested 19 685/20 985 Camaro Z28 '96 base price/as tested 19 390/23 956 I dont care what YOU state for 2002. Ill go with what I got in front of me for 1996... The regular GTI, which most kid's daddies would buy ENDED at 17 000 max! The VR6, which I had plenty of friends that owned one, and the Corrado VR6 too, ENDED at 21 000 max! The BASE 3.8 liter V6 Camaro STARTED at slightly less than 20 000....but we are talking about the LT1 V8, which was CORRECTLY STATED by you but WRONG year...is at 24 000... You see, you are wrong in several ways (and Im right!): $3000 difference between the VR6 and a whopping $7000 difference for the regular GTI versus the Z28. Hardly is "pretty much the same" $3000 was A LOT of money for 1996. Hell, its a HUGE disparity in price today! From YOUR figures..a BASE GTI rose 3000 dollars from 1996 to 2002, a MSRP VR6 didnt rise at all and was less than $1000 difference from the 4 banger, (BULLSHYTE) and the Camaro also stayed the same price 6 years later meaning the LT1 and the LS1 were the same price (BULLSHYTE!!!) Like I said...young 20 year olds daddies did not fork over the cash for the Z28....they did for a VW GTI non-VR6... I know this extremely well and first hand....my friends were those kinds of 20 year olds!

All the Toyota sheeple I spoke too, all drove automatics. Mind you. The Scion FR-S guys were REAL car guys and gals! And yes...manual transmissions. But those guys never once mentioned 'Toyota reliability' to me. Just that the FR-S is a great little handling car that they love to thrash around. And the lack of power issue is not even an issue as they understand its all about the handling and not the brute acceleration that is the raison detre for this car and no, they dont want or need more power.

So much so that the ZR-1 ended production in 1995, took until 2009 to come back, the NSX limped on with no sales until 2002, died, came back in 2016, and the Viper has never sold well, and is now being put out of production. Meanwhile in the 90s, Porsche was the only German company really building super cars, now they all do. BMW and Mercedes back then and 850i and SL600 type cars, but they were tanks with V12s, meant for luxury not track performance. The LT1, LT4 C4, LS1 C5 Vettes took its place for it was CHEAPER to build because the LT5 was an expensive powerplant and low and behold, the LT1, LT4 and LS1 Vettes were even faster, lighter and actually, those caused even MORE havoc to the Germans and the Italians forcing the Germans to really offer a zillion 911 trims to specialize to dominate and the Italians to offer more expensive low end 308/328/348/F355/F430/360 Modena/458 and so forth and so forth....

I know most new car buyers are older, and most 20-somethings or the average 20-something isn't buying a $30k new car. I said the 20-somethings there are buying cars, there are some out there, or maybe even in the 25-34 demographic that are going to buy a new car for $25-29k, there isn't much choice, except a rental spec Camaro or Mustang. In 2002 a V8 Camaro was $22,300, the same as a Camary XLE. Todays Camry XLE is like $26,000. Now todays V6 is also 2002's V8. In 2014 $24,700 was the price of a Camaro V6, now it is $29k for a base V6. Nearly $5,000 increase in 2 years. Put any options on that car (like $1,500 for an automatic transmission) and you get to $35k really quick, even for the 4-cylinder car. The Scion tC is $19,300 right now, and has 180 hp, Toyota could easily make a Celica for $20k base. It is a Corolla chassis with a coupe body and pick a corporate 4-banger to put in there, even the Camry's 4-cylinder/6AT in a 2,900 lb car or whatever a tC weights can feel peppy to drive. We aren't talking sub 6 second 0-60 time, but it could be a sporty looking car with some fun factor for younger buyers. And do you think 20 something year olds could have afford Camry XLE price tags? Like I said... Civic Si and Golf GTIs were the cars that mommy and daddy bought for them. How much did those go for? 15 000? Pontiac Firefly turbos and Cavalier Z24s... Asuna Sunfires... Ford Probes too. Those being the most expensive that the average joe 20 year old bought with mommy money! Camaro LT1 V8s were out of their reach...

1989 Porsche 911 Turbo was caught with its pants down....the Vette ZR1 came out in 1989.... You mention the 1991 911...2 years AFTER the ZR1 The 348 was still slower The F355 came out in 1994.....and it had similar ZR1 numbers! The Dodge Viper was untouchable...only the mid 1990 911 Turbos caught it... The Viper came out in 1992... 400 horsepower.... The Acura showed the Germans and Italians that a supercar could be daily driven AND be TROUBLE FREE!!! Testarossa and 512 were cars ABOVE this realm. This is Porsche Carrera GT and 918 territory. McLaren F1... The Viper and Vette to this day are not in this category.... The C8 might be though! And yet both the ZR1 and Viper held their own in a category that they surely were not involved in any shape or form. But the Viper and Vette were exotics in their own right too... Look at the numbers again SMK...in some areas, the Yanks are faster.... So yeah... I think I wasnt far off my statement of saying that the ZR1, NSX and Viper put the Germans and the Italians on alert!

Ive talked to several Toyota owners myself, Balthy. Same type of conversations too...with the same predicaments and the same logics. Its not that particular woman, Balthy, that is slightly touched in the head. Its more like most Toyota loyalists that are touched in the head!

You mention Supra... The last generation TT inline 6 Supra cost more than the Vette did. To you, a Camaro should be where an average joe 20 something year old could afford it.. Why? Through-out the Camaro's history, a V8 Camaro was ALWAYS out of reach for an average 20 something year old... Besides, if an average 20 something year old could afford a Honda Civic Si, or Ford Focus RS/ST, VW Golf GTI or a Subaru BRX, he could afford a Camaro. A 2.0T Camaro... You also mention Celica.... In the 1980s, a Celica was ALWAYS priced in and around Camaro V8 territory. Trust me, average 20 something year olds in the 1980s could NOT AFFORD BRAND NEW 5.0 Mustangs, Celicas, Supras, Trans Ams, Camaros, Nissan 300 ZXs, Vettes, Mercury 5.0 Capris, Thunderbirds, Monte Carlos, Nissan 240 SXs and the like. Civic CRX or Golf GTI 4 Valves, or Cavalier Z24 is where they were at. Nissan Sentras and Toyota Corolla GTs...Maybe a Nissan Pulsar. Definitely Pontiac Firefly turbos! OK....Camaro iron duke 4 cylinders or 2.8 V6s Ill give you. Guys, stop with the nonsense all ready!

Yup.... The successor...the Ferrari F355 however, was not. Why? Let SMK figure it out!

Thanx Balthy... And yes... "Considering there is a FORTY-SEVEN year span here, I see zero significance." That was kinda my point in that from 1969 to 2016, barely anything has changed yet...you raised VERY SIGNIFICANT POINT: "Likewise, there is zero point to maintaining a set price gap over half a century! Frankly, that's STILL not a huge disparity between '69 & '16." -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "WILL THIS STUPID ARBITRARY GARBAGE PLEASE END NOW?" I surely hope so!

Yes Balthy. Especially when the Father of the Vette (Duntov) when he first raced the Vette in the late 1950s internationally WANTED the Vette to become mid-engined... Face it people....it is the Corvette's destiny to become mid-engined. Forget Cadillac. They need to focus on what Cadillac needs to be. Cadillac still has a long way to go to perfect that. The Vette is ripe RIGHT NOW to EVOLVE into the NEXT REALM of supercar stardom!

Ferrari 308/328...THAT market... were kinda rubbish. Beautiful, but not very awe inspiring in the performance category. Plus not very reliable. The F40 was gunning against the Porshe 959. THIS would be at tad high for Vette market in 1984-1987. The ZR1, NSX and the Viper all made mince meat of Ferrari in the performance department with the Ferrari 308 and the Countach... The Porsche 928 was also garbage. THIS would be 1989/1990 when Chevy wanted a smidgen of their past glory with the Vette. Thanx to that 1989/1990 ZR1 we have the C5R/C6R/C7R in Lemans and the Z06 cars along with the Blue Devil all hinting at the Corvette's racing heritage fro 1957-1969.... After Dodge, Chevy and Acura showed some muscle is when Ferrari, Porsche and Lambo got serious in the low end of their market.... SMK, The Corvette in the early 60s ate Ferraris at the race track.... As did the little Cobra coupe and Ford with the GT40... SMK, in the late 60s with the Trans Am racing, both Camaro and Mustang beat Porsche and their air cooled 911 predecessor.... Dude, dont be an arrogant Eurosnob when it comes to American sports car performance....I assure you...the Yankee cars kick Euro ass!!! What is this Chevy price tag you hold? Find me and compare 1969 Impala 6 cylinder to base 1969 Camaro. Find me and compare 1969 427 Impala SS to 1969 396 Camaro SS Then do the same for a 1996 Impala SS and a 1996 Camaro SS both with the regular LT1 260 HP for the Impala and 285 or so for the Camaro Then do the same for a 2016 Impala LTZ 3.6 liter 300 horse to a 3.6 liter V6 Camaro AND the Camaro V8... I assure you, the Camaro in 2016 still compares in price to its Impala brother in price... Then do research and see where that 1969 ZL1 comes in price vis a vis a Corvette in 1969 and do the same for the 2016 ZL1 vis a vis a 2016 Vette... COINCIDENTALLY... CORVETTE'S RACING HISTORY FROM 1957-1969 IS ANOTHER REASON WHY THE VETTE HAS TO GO MID-ENGINED... ZORA WANTED IT THAT WAY SINCE THE FIRST VETTES RACED INTERNATIONALLY.. BUT THAT IS FOR THE OTHER THREAD!

The way I see it... It is the ONLY way VAG could survive without breaking up/selling its brands... SKODA does not have any recognition in North America though. They have to start small, like Hyundai did in the 1980s. Like VW did themselves in North America in the 1950s and 1960s. Quite possibly with the funny, quirky commercials. I definitely could see SKODA as the new VW for North America. With a clean sheet. Like I said though without any arrogance. Really start off clean without the VW missteps in North America.

^^^ At least three times less for the Camaro it should read. The Camaro ZL-1 will probably break a few performance records... Yes....from the SLS to the Vette to Porsche's... 650 Horsepower/650 FT. LBS torque on a compact chassis that is dialed in with a powertrain that is just unbeatable... Modern Muscle Car to the power of 1000. Muscle Car1000

@SMK What was that price tag on that Gullwing SLS AMG, SMK? At least 3 times less... And it took the 1990 ZR-1 Vette, Acura NSX and Dodge Viper to wake up Ferrari and Lambo....unto which M-B got that itch 20 years LATER to join.. ACURA, CHEVROLET and DODGE.... CHEVY and DODGE... MAINSTREAM FAMILY HAULERS companies.... The ZL-1 Camaro will probably see at least 195 MPH... Its still a lowly pony car adorning the Bow Tie... And no....the M-B GT will NOT trounce it.... In some areas, maybe....in some areas NO! Again.... What is that price tag on that M-B GT? On the 911? Yes, the Holy Grail of Sports Cars... You know....once the Vette becomes mid-engined and performance stats really hit supercardome...which they kinda do now anyway... All those Front engine RWD tricks the Vettes has now will be passed unto the Camaro...and the Vette aint no chump against the Germans.... AND THAT IS WHY THE CAMARO IS PRICED THE WAY IT IS! The Camaro is still a steal for the performance gained with what all other companies are offering... 650 horsepower.. 430 horsepower... Are those power figures too huge for Chevy? Is that what you folk are eluding to? You got to pay to play, yet its stilll a Chevy....still cheaper with what you get from BMW, M-B, Ford or anywhere else!

I wanna chime in, but every time I want to, HYPER is there to say what I kinda wanna say, but he says it WAY BETTER than I EVER could! KEEP ON IT HYPER! WHAT YOU SAY ON THIS MATTER IS LOGICAL, SMART AND NO OTHER WAY FOR GM TO DO THINGS!

To freakin soon is what I say also. We salt our roads in the winter, and I dont see ANY brands today that young with rust bubbles. (Montreal, Quebec is where I come from) After 6-7 years maybe on cars that get no love. I own a 2013 Ford Fusion. She looks as new as the day she drove off from the showroom floor.

And that 638 HP Corvette had a Cadillac price tag. Maybe same price tag with that 469 HP Cadillac.Quite possibly a HIGHER price tag than it even.. And just to add to my post above... SMK... Find me the price tag of that 2002 Camaro SS anniversary edition and while you are at it, find me the price tag of the 2002 Pontiac Trans A WS6 collector edition (convertibles too) just to see how much those cost back in the day versus Toyota... But also do an equipment list comparison including the quality of the interior materials with the last special editions F-Bodies with a normal 2016 Camaro SS and see where the money went in the price tag. When you do that, I promise you, you will think the Alpha Camaro is a steal! Guys...the Alpha Camaro is much, much more than just a pony car... Once you folk realize what that means, then you wont be bitchin' about the price tag. Especially you SMK... You dont like BMW, but Mercedes Benz has NOTHING in THEIR stable either at ANY price point that beats the Alpha Camaro in performance... The upcoming ZL1 will EMBARRASS German cars twice and three times the ZL1's price tag in ANY performance metric you wanna throw at it! The ecotec turbo 4 also is quite the performer out gunning ANY German car at that price point... THAT is why the Alpha Camaro costs as much as it does..and its a STEAL!