ccap41

The Navigator is nowhere near half the price of a GLS580 with that rear seat option elected.

After trying to build a GLS on their website, you are correct. They do offer massaging 2nd row seats, at the cheapest possible option of 104k. That doesn't even give the driver a heated steering wheel, you have to add that separately.

There are quite a lot of differences and I found this online as it's more thorough than I could be so here's this. https://poworks.com/a-comparison-of-nmc-nca-lithium-ion-battery-and-lfp-battery#:~:text=The LFP lithium battery is,the market for varied applications. "Energy density----Upon current technology, the energy density of commercial single cell NMC lithium battery is around 200Wh/kg, and NCA battery may get more than 300Wh/kg soon; while energy density of LFP lithium battery is basically hovering around 100~110Wh/kg, some may get 130~190Wh/kg, but it is very difficult for it to exceed 200Wh/kg. NCA/NMC battery is applied mostly in cars which consume less power and in favor of fast speed and long range. Theoretically, cars using NCA lithium batteries can run farther than those using same number of LFP batteries; and LFP vehicles are preferably chosen to be city buses at present, because the range of them is not long, and they can be charged within a short distance in cities, where a lot of charging piles can be easily built. Space occupation----Choose BYD for buses and Tesla for cars. Benefited from higher energy density, a single NMC/NCA battery cell can provide twice as much space as an LFP battery, which is very important for cars with limited space. So we can see it in the commercial market, Tesla focus on NMC/NCA battery, and BYD produces LFP battery. So there is a saying in China's EV market, "Choose BYD for buses and Tesla for cars". While this year in March 2020, BYD announced their new LFP battery pack saving 50% space of their previous pack, and got positive sales with their Han EV sedan installed with the Blade Battery. At the same time, Tesla unveiled their new model powered by LFP battery from CATL as well. Safety----Most important of all, the reason for choosing LFP battery for city buses is the essential concern of safety. There have been many fire accidents with Tesla cars from consumers since Tesla Model S was brought to market, although direct reason of fire may differ. One reason is that Tesla's battery pack is composed of more than 7,000 units of Panasonic / Tesla NCA lithium battery. If these units or the entire battery pack has an internal short circuit, they may generate open flames even big fire, especially in car crash; thankfully it is improving. While LFP material will much less likely burn encountering a short circuit, and its high temperature resistance is much better than that of NCA/NMC lithium battery. Low-temperature & high-temperature resistance----The lithium iron phosphate (LFP) battery has better performance for its high temperature resistance, while NCA/NMC is better for its low temperature resistance. Let me introduce one example. At a temperature of -20℃, the NMC lithium battery can release 70.14% of its capacity; while the lithium iron phosphate (LFP) battery can only release 54.94%. The discharge voltage plateau of NMC lithium battery is far higher, and it starts earlier than that of the LFP battery at low temperature. Therefore, NMC battery is a better choice for applications at low temperature. Charging efficiency----The charging efficiency of NMC/NCA lithium battery is higher than that of LFP battery. Lithium battery charging adopts current-control and voltage-control method. That is, constant current charging is applied first, when the current and charging efficiency are comparatively high. After the lithium battery reaches certain voltage, the recharger switches to the second stage of constant voltage charging, at this period the current and charging efficiency are low. To measure the charging efficiency of a lithium battery, we use a ratio between the constant-current charging capacity and the total battery capacity, called “the constant-current ratio”. The experimental data on the constant-current ratio shows that there is little difference between NMC/NCA and LFP batteries charging them at a temperature lower than 10℃, but it's quite different at a temperature higher than that. Here is an example, when we charge them at 20℃, the constant-current ratio of NMC lithium battery is 52.75%, which is five times that of the lithium iron phosphate (LFP) battery (10.08 %). Cycle life----The cycle life of lithium iron phosphate (LFP) battery is better than NMC/NCA lithium battery. The theoretical life of NMC lithium battery is 2000 cycles, but its capacity fades to 60% when it runs 1000 cycles; even the best-known Tesla NCA battery can only maintain 70% of its capacity after 3000 cycles, while the lithium iron phosphate (LFP) battery will remain 80% after 3000 cycles. "

You have to spend 200k to get massaging rear seats and semi-autonomous driving? Just buy the better Lincoln at half the price.

For @smk4565 https://www.motortrend.com/features/lincoln-suv-lineup-updates-changes?slide=6 2022 Lincoln Aviator: What We Think In many ways, the bigger the SUV, the better the Lincoln. We currently rank the Aviator as the best vehicle in the three-row luxury segment. The exterior and interior design are both outstanding, with bold, distinctive lines and loads of wood, metal, and leather; it's nearly impossible to discern that the Aviator shares a platform with the underwhelming Ford Explorer. Lincoln's standard twin-turbo V-6 is powerful and plenty quick, too, and those after more power can opt for the Grand Touring plug-in hybrid (though we'd recommend the non-hybrid in this case). https://www.motortrend.com/features/lincoln-suv-lineup-updates-changes?slide=7 2022 Lincoln Navigator: What’s New Lincoln is making a big debut with the 2022 Navigator. The largest and in-chargest Lincoln is the first model to feature Lincoln ActiveGlide, a semi-autonomous system analogous to Ford BlueCruise. Lincoln is also adding second-row massage seats (a segment first), plus new Central Park and Invitation themes for the Navigator Black Label. Front and rear styling have been updated, and the center touchscreen has been enlarged to 13.2 inches. https://www.motortrend.com/features/lincoln-suv-lineup-updates-changes?slide=8 2022 Lincoln Navigator: What We Think There's a reason the Lincoln Navigator sits atop our rankings of full-size luxury SUVs. Yes, the twin-turbo V-6 and 10-speed auto provide effortless acceleration, and, of course, we appreciate that there's plenty of space even in the third row. But it's really all about this interior—an opulently finished art-deco reminder that in some spaces, America still does best. For the 2022 Navigator, we hope the updated suspension improves the ride quality, one of our few complaints about the pre-2022 SUV.

As long as the bed can accommodate 1 cubic yard of top soil or whatnot, it would be sufficient for me. That's about my line to draw if the bed is large enough or not.

Personally, I would prefer the LFP battery over the NCA battery. Quicker charge times and the ability to use the full battery capacity, SOLD.

"less range" but you can recharge to 100% so you're actually getting more range on a regular basis, compared to charging to 80%, as suggested by Tesla.

Impressive, imo, for a four door sedan and thank you for the perspective.

What else runs 7 minutes and 30-ish seconds? I don't know actually how quick or not quick that is.

I would think just being able to throw, say, a Ford GT on an advertisement for Ford or an NSX on an Acura billboard would be beneficial. I also think it's kind of impossible to get an accurate number on how many people see those signs then check out the rest of the companies' lineups but I would think they'd help a bit.

Hahaha, I actually JUST finished reading that. I'm excited for Rivian.

http://energyfairness.org/dutch-trains-really-running-completely-renewable-power/ Are Dutch Trains Really Running Completely on Renewable Power? "... What’s the trick? A little more than a tenth of all electricity consumed in the Netherlands comes from wind power, some of which is imported. But none of this wind power is directly connected to the NS rail system. Even the two Dutch wind farms with which NS contracts directly for wind power, Noordoostpolder and Luchterduinen, are tied generally to the Dutch grid and not tied directly into the NS rail system. Plus, it turns out that about half the electricity NS uses to power its rail system comes from outside of the Netherlands. Some of the nations that supply power to NS such as Germany, Belgium, and Finland, do generate wind power, but only in modest amounts. That means electrons traveling across international borders to help power the NS railway system come in some amount from wind power, but in much larger amounts from non-wind sources. “Putting these numbers together indicates that only 10-15% of the electricity consumed annually by NS’s electric trains will come from wind, with the rest a mixture that includes mostly Dutch gas and coal plus a small amount of Belgian and German coal, nuclear and lignite – and maybe even a little German solar,” Andrews explains. When challenged on its claim, NS clarified that only the electrified portion of its system runs completely on wind power. This is about two-thirds of the system. But of course even two-thirds of the NS system doesn’t run “completely” on wind power. The electrons that run the electrified portion of the NS system come from many sources, including wind, but also from coal, natural gas, and nuclear. The truth is that it’s impossible to determine the source of electrons actually moving NS trains down the track. What is clear is that most of those electrons didn’t originate from wind turbines. There are many reasons, of course, why NS would claim its trains run completely on wind power and even more reasons why many would celebrate this apparently breakthrough. Headlines like this make people feel good. It feels to many like progress. But let’s be real. The evidence speaks for itself. Claims that Dutch trains running entirely on wind power are way off track."

Obviously, you have not sat in a Ford and then the Lincoln counterpart. They used to be tacky badge-jobs. They are completely redone now. Aviator & Explorer:

Because they're digging themselves out of the abysmal products they were making for like 30 years, very poorly and cheaply rebadged Fords. Because they're digging themselves out of the abysmal products they were making for like 30 years, very poorly and cheaply rebadged Fords. Lincoln dealerships have also improved as they cannot be in one building with Ford. They are required to have their own stand-alone building so there are also much fewer dealerships than there were only five years ago. They were in a hole and are taking the necessary steps to dig themselves out. I haven't read a review of any recent Lincoln(2016-on) that hasn't greatly praised the vehicle.

IMO, this segment seems more of the "older" generation(50-60 years old) where they grew up with a brand and just stick to it. They grew up with Hondas and now they can afford an Acura. JAPANESE RELIABILITY! GLE? Mercedes has a very good brand image and there are plenty of trim options. "Wow, you drive a Mercedes?!?" Their user interface/apps/charging network are also second to none, at this time.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/road-tests/a32627323/2020-lincoln-aviator-grand-touring-review/ "One year ago, I drove a Lincoln Navigator Black Label. Imposing, smooth, opulent. Part of me thought that Lincoln—of all companies—had built a better luxury vehicle than the Mercedes S-Class. For $30,000 less you could have just as much comfort, more space, and far more approachable technology. But it was rough around the edges, not the all-around stunner that the Mercedes was and is. A couple of years later, though, I'm wondering if Lincoln might just have bested Mercedes, with an even cheaper product. When the Aviator bowed, I already knew it had a shot at really delivering on what Lincoln promised. Three major issues hold back the Navigator: its body-on-frame construction makes it less of a high-speed, buttoned-down luxury cruiser; the driver-assist tech is a generation behind other luxury flagships; and some details feel a little too close to what you'd find on a Ford. The Aviator, with its unibody architecture, Co-Pilot 360 semi-autonomous driver's aids, and relentless attention to detail, seems to solve all of that. If the Navigator's biggest problem is that it tries to match, not beat, other luxury flagships, the Aviator's boundless ambition sets a great precedent for the brand. Look at the styling. To my eye, this is the first SUV since 2013 to match the current Range Rover's elegance and athleticism, with even more intricate detailing. The Aviator beat the rest of the luxury crossover field in offering smartphone-as-key capability (Tesla offers it on the Model 3 and promises it on other models "soon"). Its adaptive suspension uses cameras to adjust to the road ahead, tech usually reserved for S-Class-level vehicles. Even the Aviator's door chime is better than the competition's, composed by the Detroit Symphony Orchestra to be delicate, not grating. The audio system is best-in-class, handily beating anything BMW, Mercedes, or even Volvo will sell you. (Ultra-high end Meridian gear in top-spec Range Rovers still has the Lincoln beat, but that's damned good company to keep.) The ride is sublime and the cabin is whisper quiet. Oh, that cabin. It is unquestionably one of the best on sale. It's got the stunning wow-factor of a Volvo or Mercedes, but it's far more usable than either. Physical controls are laid out clearly, with an easy and simple touchscreen handling more complicated tasks. The software is a half-step behind the best in the business, but Lincoln is proving that you can make a gorgeous cockpit that's usable and attractive. Those keeping track of luxury car best practices will recognize that Lincoln has nailed just about every one. The key stuff—the seats, the ride, the interior—was solved in the first generation of new Lincoln products. But as the reborn company matures, the Aviator represents the company paying attention to the details. No longer content to be very good, Lincoln is shooting for best-in-the-business. Lincoln is building a world-class product, which means it's charging prices in line with other world-class cars. A top-trim Aviator Black Label starts at $77,695. That's deep into Mercedes GLE territory. But that's not a dealbreaker for one simple reason: the Aviator is easily the better car. Just don't get the hybrid."

This is a pretty ignorant statement, and you know it.

Not much difference because the Aviator is much wider. If you actually calculate out their volume that the vehicle occupies, based on exterior dimensions, the Aviator is a larger overall vehicle.

1995 in the Mustang. The 1996-97 Mustangs, of that generation, got the 4.6.

I think they'll face more threats from the non-luxury automakers as they'll hit Tesla's volume vehicles more with more service centers/dealers.

...Those are pretty big differences though... Walk around a GLS and an Escalade and they're significantly different in size. Just walk around each of them. The Escalade/Navigator/(assuming) Grand Wagoneer are much larger vehicles. They may be priced similarly, but the American ones are much larger. They probably have 6 inches in width alone on the GLS/X7.

Eh, fine. We will agree to disagree.

We can meet in the middle assuming we're both missing things and wrong about something and go with 30% ?

I did think about vans but didn't look up their prices. They do seem like they likely sell in the 40's as well so very good point. 32-43k base msrp depending on the size. I doubl those get upfitted a whole lot from Mercedes themselves. Buuuut, the 36k work van(Sprinter - The Metris starts at the 32k) can be built to 63k with just the largest length and height, biggest engine, and highest payload. NO CLUE how many get built to beyond 50k though. I'd lie if I even through out an assumption because these surprisingly jump in price quite a bit with size. If I had to bet, i think I'd say these move off lots in the 45-55k range. I'm not getting into leases. I don't 100% understand how those are calculated in "vehicle sales" but I would assume they are "paying" close to MSRP with various "deals" to lower payments and/or down payment but I don't know what the actual transaction price is considered. Sorry, I was off a grand. 43,200 is what I saw.