surreal1272

Come on Stew. FCA is suffering from both issues and this is coming from an 8 year Magnum owner and an LX fan. They have problems that go beyond just CUVs or lack thereof.

I know I'm the wagon weirdo here but if they would have produced a wagon version of the G8 and brought it here, I would have been all over that.

Sorry but by your own definition of the Buick/Cadillac issue, the same can be said and applied to Fords Platinum trims and Lincoln.

The Aviator? Really? Sorry but the Ford Explorer II, I mean Aviator, does not fit into this equation as it relates to $90-100K cars. Why you even bothered mentioning that is beyond me.

Exactly my point regarding Fords upper level trims.

So how is it not a problem for Ford as well, being that you have stated multiple times that Fords platinum trims are more luxurious than Buick? It goes both ways here.

You're the one that brought up the sales card while not playing whole deck, i.e. pointing out that the Conti outsold the much more expensive CT6 while ignoring it losing badly to the equally priced XTS. And right now, Lincoln has no answer for Cadillacs $100K SUV or sedan, so do you see how your Buick logic can be turned against you?

@TaurusSHO--How exactly is that "grasping"? Also, why create an artificial scenario by excluding certain cars or CUVs to prove your point, get countered on that, and then say that it doesn't refute your point?

So again, like I asked Wings, how is it a fault and a bad thing that Cadillac can sell their full size SUV and make a $h! ton of money on them, in the process? His going after the Escalade, in this case, would be like me going after Ford for the F-150, which is responsible for their highest profits and almost a third of their yearly sales. Who cares on both counts? They both make their respective companies a lot of money and the last time I checked, that was a good thing.

Given that Lincoln sells an equal size SUV (can't be helped that Lincoln can't sell near as many even though they're cheaper than the Escalade), it makes the statement even sillier.

When selling too much of a car is a negative for one company, but not the other company. Sigh.

And who cares if the Escalade does inflate it? It's part of their lineup and it makes them a killing, which last time I checked was a good thing. It's like pointing out that Fords ATPs can be attributed to their biggest seller, the profit machine known as the F-150. When did it become a problem to make a profit? I guess it became one when it wasn't about Ford. And mentioning the Navigator as the reason for lower ATPs of Lincoln is silly for the simple fact that even if it was counted the same, there is also a $30k price difference at the top tier trim level to consider (Navigator vs. the Escalade). Like I said, excuses a plenty that matter not.

And as I pointed out, it has everything to do with it unless you are beholden to the brand you are trying to defend. Your simply disagreeing with it doesn't make it any less true. The excuses have been plenty but the facts are even more plentiful.

The CT6 starts at $10K more than the Conti and the gap is even larger on top tier models.

Who cares? I'm not going to speak for anyone else but on that logic, would Ford fans be gloating about Conti sales if we were comparing it to the XTS alone or if (heaven forbid) is lost to the higher priced CT6? It goes both ways Wings. Oh and newsflash, never said it did but it's not hard to make a reasonable assumption about such things unless you are beholdened to the company you are trying to defend.

Per the sales thread for last month. XTS-2653 Continental-1419 CT6-1169

The Mustang was selling more than 30% to fleet while the Camaro was selling 8%. Feel free to research that (one only needs to see the drop off in sales of the Mustang from July to September alone to reach the obvious conclusion). Also, Lincoln overall fleet was more than double that of Cadillac so it's a reasoanable assumption that the Conti is selling more fleet models as well. This isn't a dig on Lincoln but just a statement of simple facts. It has been well documented that Fords fleet numbers were higher than the industry average while GM was below average. https://www.google.com/amp/amp.usatoday.com/story/93158922/?client=safari Pay attention to the third paragraph here, regarding how heavy their fleet numbers were earlier this year http://www.autonews.com/article/20160401/RETAIL01/304019981/ford-outsells-gm-on-higher-fleet-shipments and again, the Conti is priced and packaged more in line with the XTS, which sold more last month than the Conti and CT6 combined.

Actually Wings opened it and I did see those "incentives" and none offered proof of it being from the manufacturer. The even better present is that you think the incentives of an, again, outgoing niche model car is somehow worse than a mainstream "best selling" current year and model car. The fact that you can't or refuse to see the difference there is a bonus gift. Again, feel free to reference the link provided regarding current incentives by make and model. It's rather eye opening. I don't expect the two biggest Ford fans here to agree with what was presented but understand that your agreement is not a requirement for it to be true. I stand by my statement and you will stand by yours. Now, seeing as how none of this has anything to do with the Continental, as someone once said, topic please.

Proof because the only links found regarding the (at the time) outgoing Z/28 was a from a handful of dealerships and again, those were dealership mark downs and not factory, as you claim here. There were no factory incentives of that size. Keep reaching yourself because I find it funny that you two harp on a single outgoing model while ignoring the 25% off of a current year Mustang GT (of which I provided proof). Btw, since you want to go the incentive route, feel free to reference my link a few posts above regarding those and note the makes in the top 25 or so.

GM is also using co-pilots and my initial point is that Ford is also testing in the cities here and not just their mock city in Michigan, which in case you missed it the first time, I think is a far better idea (the mock city part). "DETROIT (AP) — General Motors has started testing fully autonomous vehicles on public roads around its technical center in suburban Detroit The announcement comes just one week after Gov. Rick Snyder signed legislation that allows the cars to be tested on public roads without a driver or a steering wheel. But the automaker says that for now, it will have human backup drivers for its fleet of autonomous Chevrolet Bolt electric cars."

I will simply counter one "extreme example" from one Camaro dealership (on an outgoing model nonetheless) with 25% off of a current year Mustang GT. http://www.tedbritt.com/inventory/new-ford-mustang-gt-stock-c65175/ or how about up to 30% off of a new F-150? http://www.mainlandford.com/30-off/ I guess, based on Cosworths logic, that Ford should be sorry too for believing that they could ask so much for their cars and trucks.

What you seem to be forgetting is that the name "Continental" used to mean something, 40 years ago, before Ford neglected it, much like Cadillac did with the DeVille name (and thus highlighting why they did not bring that nameplate back). I can take or leave the letter/number based naming schemes but most folks these days don't even recall when either of those names meant something for the reason I just mentioned. Most have only seen how those cars got trashed by Ford and GM for four decades. Just offering a different. perspective on this naming thing and why bringing back an old name sometimes isn't the best idea.

No worries. I stand by my post (which was backed up with facts) and you will stand by yours.

They are not just testing in "mock" cities though (which I agree with for the record). From Ford's media page, "This year, Ford will triple its autonomous vehicle test fleet to be the largest test fleet of any automaker – bringing the number to about 30 self-driving Fusion Hybrid sedans on the roads in California, Arizona and Michigan, with plans to triple it again next year." They have been testing self driving Fusions on regular roads in and around the Phoenix area. I personally think self driving cars are a disaster in the making, also for the record. I'm just going to leave it at that.

What is also missed, in this talk of incentives and backed up by the link I provided, is that Ford and Lincoln populate the top half of the incentive scale right now and were running heavy incentives this year up until August on cars like the Mustang so it's a little hypocritical to bring up niche cars like the ZL1 or even the Camaro as a whole when you see what the competition is doing throughout the year.