surreal1272

Did it hurt when you had to backpedal like that? It absolutely does have everything to do with people's decisions. How many times have we heard here how wrong it was for Cadillac to be sharing floor space with any other GM make? I know you sure took part in that dog pile but now that you have been shown proof of Mercedes showering their luxury filled lots with Sprinter vans, you say it doesn't matter? Seriously LMAO at that one SMK! It does matter. I have never been one on the campaign for super luxury stand alone dealers. I always thought it was better if Cadillac had their own dealerships so they aren't thought of as just another GM brand and thought of as more special. But overall you go to the dealer once to buy the car, then you might never go back. I actually think car companies could sell cars online and skip the dealership system altogether. Amazon could sell cars with better deals and greater efficiency than any dealership could. From the dealership standpoint, I think knowledge sales people matter more than what the building looks like, and if you are out on a test drive you aren't in the building anyway. Dealerships aren't Cadillac's problem. Even in your reply you contradict yourself. You say no campaign on stand alone dealerships but for some reason single out Cadillac and you continued to do so until your own favorite was called out for intermixing their brands at the same dealerships as well. Hell, It literally photographic proof to show you that for a fact. Then you immediately back track with your previous post. You cannot continue to make arguments about brand perceptions and then just try to change your stance entirely after being busted on your hypocrisy. Not trying to be a dick here, but that is the simple fact of the matter and I think everyone here just saw it. One last thing. The dealership most certainly does matter. One only needs to study the history of Lexus to see proof of that. Their cars were always sold on the dealership and service experience. To pretend that the dealership doesn't matter is simply ignorant. Sorry but it is and again I think you are only saying this now because you got busted and called out on it.

Why would anyone possibly down vote that? Sorry, I know that's off the subject. Carry on.

Did it hurt when you had to backpedal like that? It absolutely does have everything to do with people's decisions. How many times have we heard here how wrong it was for Cadillac to be sharing floor space with any other GM make? I know you sure took part in that dog pile but now that you have been shown proof of Mercedes showering their luxury filled lots with Sprinter vans, you say it doesn't matter? Seriously LMAO at that one SMK! It does matter.

Fair enough. That's the way I look at it right now. I think if they would have used a different color combination it would not look so obvious. I tend to over analyze that kind of stuff with interiors from all my years working in automotive textiles back in the 90s.

I am willing to bet that sewing job was not performed on an assembly line. . And you think it makes it okay given that this was the car they chose to show the automotive world? Didn't say anything of the sort. Never said you did Cos. I asked a simple question. Do you think it was okay for them to send it like that given all the attention it was going to get? I am willing to bet that sewing job was not performed on an assembly line. . And you think it makes it okay given that this was the car they chose to show the automotive world? Pre-production cars are just that... pre-production. There is a possibility of changes to the assembly process or the assembly process not even been fully developed yet. ALL manufacturers have pre-production cars that they use to show the public and press.....and all of them have flaws in assembly. I will never judge a car show debut car on assembly quality, ever. Sometimes the manufacturer let the Press drive these pre-production cars. Often times, they won't even have a VIN because they are due to be crushed after a certain time. The manufacturer will put a disclaimer sticker in the car somewhere indicating that it is pre-production... and yes.. there will be flaws. Once the actual production Continentals start rolling out, then we can have a looksee to judge. I understand that but I've seen a lot of preproduction cars and I think what makes this error obvious is the contrast from the stitching to the door panel color. Just looks way too obvious and it would bug me to no end. I would certainly hope this does not happen to a production model. It doesn't even phase me because it was likely done by hand in a design studio on a tight schedule. It really is a non-issue in a pre-production car. Oh I agree on that level. Like I said though, I think it just looks worse than it really is because of the color and contrast choices they used. I'll wait until the production hits the streets before judging it as a whole.

I am willing to bet that sewing job was not performed on an assembly line. . And you think it makes it okay given that this was the car they chose to show the automotive world? Pre-production cars are just that... pre-production. There is a possibility of changes to the assembly process or the assembly process not even been fully developed yet. ALL manufacturers have pre-production cars that they use to show the public and press.....and all of them have flaws in assembly. I will never judge a car show debut car on assembly quality, ever. Sometimes the manufacturer let the Press drive these pre-production cars. Often times, they won't even have a VIN because they are due to be crushed after a certain time. The manufacturer will put a disclaimer sticker in the car somewhere indicating that it is pre-production... and yes.. there will be flaws. Once the actual production Continentals start rolling out, then we can have a looksee to judge. I understand that but I've seen a lot of preproduction cars and I think what makes this error obvious is the contrast from the stitching to the door panel color. Just looks way too obvious and it would bug me to no end. I would certainly hope this does not happen to a production model.

I am willing to bet that sewing job was not performed on an assembly line. . And you think it makes it okay given that this was the car they chose to show the automotive world?

I doubt though that anyone is cross shopping a Buick with a Jaguar, with a few exceptions of course. This is aimed at Acura, Lexus, and Lincoln. You are absolutely correct. But does that make the Buick overpriced or the Jag a bargain ? (excluding their reliability because we agree that is an issue - out of warranty)[/quote I won't get into all that because I think most cars are overpriced these days. I agree that the motor is small for that price but most non-enthusiast buyers don't care and probably won't even notice such things as long as it does what they need it to do.

I doubt though that anyone is cross shopping a Buick with a Jaguar, with a few exceptions of course. This is aimed at Acura, Lexus, and Lincoln.

That's the thing. Jaguar has a very sparse dealer and parts network compared to Buick. Listen. I have always loved the look of most Jaguars but they are nightmares after the warranty runs out (and sometimes before it runs out), which is still a big deal for most folks. They are just piles of dung to me and I have seen nothing from them over the years that will change my opinion of them.

It is far more common these days for MB to sell this vans like that (alongside the S Class) than it is for GM to share those two lots (Caddy and Chevy), of which they have reduced over the years btw. Not one Cadillac dealership in the Phoenix valley area shares any space with any other GM make.

I can speak from experience, that Sprinter vans have nothing of the sort of feel you state. Car and Driver needs to get some real drivers as the Sprinters have the same numb feel in handling as any other van out there. I'll second that. Having driven both a Sprinter van and a Ford Transit van, I can honestly say that I would take the Ford all day, every day. Car and Driver is smoking crack regarding that "steering feel" btw.

The people who don't have Jag dealers near them... Not the mention the people who don't want Jaguar maintenance after the warranty runs out. That was number 2 on the reasons I wouldn't want a Jag but if I was buying brand new I wouldn't be overly concerned about that part. That's more what I, personally, would worry about as I'm more of a 2nd hand car purchaser where I probably won't have much, if any, warranty remaining. right now i think you get a 6 yr warranty on Jags. I'll check that. I'd choose a Jag before a Chinese vehicle at 45-50k. I'd have a lot more trust in that. 45k for 340 +/- hp supercharged v6, big ass moonroof, etc. sure it may not be real leather at that price? but often GM's leather feels more like vinyl anyways. This is a serious machine, not a next gen downsized Equinox http://rules.config.jaguar.com/jdx/en_us_seatoff/f-pace_k17/3c3m9/a-30p-340aawd_a-crossover_jt0/b51d_jt1b-1_ner_z88d/jaguar.pdf Yeah I just built a Jag F-Pace for $50,520 and the only thing I didn't add because it was 2k was the bi-xenon headlights but it came with parking sensors and crap I didn't really want and I didn't think 2k was worth it. 6 years but how many miles? FYI This is how mine turned out. http://rules.config.jaguar.com/jdx/en_us_seatoff/f-pace_k17/3c3m9/a-30p-340aawd_a-crossover_jt1/b16d-f45c_c55r_f96j_h01ejet_hgy_jt1b-1_z93l1/jaguar.pdf It five years just like almost everyone else. Still would not have one.

That's NOT the point. In THIS market (the U.S.- 2nd in importance to Daimler after China), there has been a very specific image of 'luxury vehicle' for the MB badge. Cadillac is frequently addressed as 'lacking focus' when it is mercedes benz that has products shooting in all sorts of different directions, more and more recently which don't come close to the 'the best or nothing' tagline. Oh they absolutely do. Right up the road from me the MB dealer loves to have anywhere from 6-14 Sprinters on the front row- looks like a Hertz lot. I will baldy take a picture of the local MB dealership near me in Phoenix that proudly displays their vans out in the form of their lots at times right next to their C and E Class companions. They are that "pathetic" Suave. Notice the Vans on the left side of the lot (can't miss them). Occasionally they put a silver van at the prominent corner in front of the dealership. Yes pathetic indeed.

Daimler's 'managing of it's (MB) brand' is to poke into every segment out there, in nothing other than a high speed pursuit of volume. Cadillac is NOT chasing volume. 'GM' of course is chasing volume, but 'Cadillac' is not 'GM'. Frankly, some of the upcoming Cadillac expansion I am NOT welcoming warmly, as it represents exactly my criticism of mercedes. RE 'brands as equals', they are not on numerous levels, but both are primarily associated with luxury products (well, a number of mercedes' are not), and therefore comparisons can , have and will be made. But I can still leave Cadillac out of it other than to set a context of subjective commentary. This and I might add that the main person constantly trying to compare everything Cadillac with everything Mercedes Benz is a Mercedes fanboy. Perhaps Suave should direct it at him since he does this at every turn and on every thread by interjecting Mercedes into every damn topic.

They have lots of new products in the works. Hellcat Grand Cherokee, Hellcat Durango, Hellcat Wrangler, Hellcat Pacifica, Hellcat Dodge Dart, Hellcat Fiat 500, etc. All you have to do is put a monster V8 in a super dated and otherwise lackluster product and jack the price up and watch the sales roll in. Every other car company that has models on 6-7 year cycles has got it wrong. You want vehicles on Crown Vic style 17 year life cycles, throw in some body kits or new engine every 7 years as a "special edition" this is the way to make it in the auto industry. So the Hellcat lineup is the AMG of Fiat/Chrysler/Doge/Jeep? Just slap the label on any old car and call it day and the suckers will gladly overpay for it? Sounds right to me.

. There you go again. Let me tell you something about the Lexus NX. It is a Fancy Toyota RAV4. Funny how you don't say anything about that but when it involves Cadillac, it is somehow a different story. We are talking about a Chinese built Buick SUV that has already been on market a few years and looks dated at launch, and they want Lexus money for it. Yes the Lexus NX is a Rav4 underneath, but it is still a Lexus, which is better than any Buick, and a much more respected badge. I was comparing the Envision to NX and MKC because they are based on the Rav4 and Escape, and turbo 4, front drive crossovers. Both the Lincoln and Lexus are nicer and I think look better and have a better brand image. Would be unfair to compare those 2nd tier crossovers to the rear drive Germans. You keep telling yourself that. You'd be wrong but keep telling yourself that, especially when stating things like Lincoln having a better brand image here when you have completely dogged them out in every other way on every other thread about Lincoln. BTW, Buick has beaten Lexus in several comparos (see LaCrosse vs. ES350 for one example) so your "Lexus better than any Buick" remark is, as usual, pure hot air.

. There you go again. Let me tell you something about the Lexus NX. It is a Fancy Toyota RAV4. Funny how you don't say anything about that but when it involves Cadillac, it is somehow a different story. Normally I'd agree, but the Lexus NX beat the venerable BMW X3 in MT's recent comparison. It may be a fancy RAV4 but it has the substance, and the Buick being a Chinese car - I'm okay with it, but no way hell would I consider it. That really isn't saying much to me as the X3 has always been unremarkable. You also missed the bigger point of why I said it in the first place.

Just another day in the "Thanks for screwing it up Fiat" department. Pathetic what they are doing at this point.

. There you go again. Let me tell you something about the Lexus NX. It is a Fancy Toyota RAV4. Funny how you don't say anything about that but when it involves Cadillac, it is somehow a different story.

The people who don't have Jag dealers near them... Not the mention the people who don't want Jaguar maintenance after the warranty runs out.

There is no other, so-called "Vans Division". The nameplate you are searching for is "mercedes-benz". That will be on the exact same dealership lots. "Van division". LMAO!

Oh I agree about the unfair comparisons from both sides but it sure doesn't stop certain trolls from harping on and on about the same thing, even after they have been shot down each and every time with the truth. And I will agree to disagree with the RWD vs FWD and it not being a big deal. On certain types of cars it isn't but the luxury market is not one of them for the most part. Regarding the Nissan statement I made, I do not know how you can continue to misread what was being said here. If you would have actually read what I said and not what you think I said, you would know that I personally don't care about their partnership with Nissan but when homer starts in with his trolling and referring to Cadillacs as "fancy Chevys" then I will return the criticism in kind. .

And you are missing the point of the entire conversation. SMK seems to find perfectly acceptable to criticize GM for putting out Cadillacs as nothing more than "fancy Chevys" while his own favorite is going to do the EXACT same damn thing with Nissan. Just look at the ton of excuses he has given for that being okay while GMs is not and you will where the last two pages here have gone horribly and laughably wrong. Oh and after having sat in a CLA a couple of weeks ago, I can fully understand the level of criticism heaved its way by just about every major publication out there. Why have that mess when I could a RWD, and much more composed, C-Class for just a little bit more cash? Daimler and Nissan-Renault are joint developing the 2017 Frontier chassis, so yes it is corporate platform share product, but the Mercedes will get a Mercedes engine and transmission and interior. This is also developed for Europe, Middle East and South America, if sold in the USA it will be sold by the Vans division and marketed as a commercial vehicle. For a work truck I am sure the Frontier chassis will be serviceable. They aren't selling the Mercedes pickup as a luxury or performance product, it is the pick up equivalent of the Metris, a work vehicle. Cadillac, Lincoln, Acura, and Lexus, build luxury cars/crossovers of front drive platforms that are inferior to rear drive platforms that you can put more power into, longer wheelbases with better ride, better interior room, etc. That is the difference. These front drive products hit a performance ceiling that the rear drive product can far exceed. And many people would rather have a C-class, it outsold the CLA 86,000 to 29,000 in the USA last year. C-class racked up over 443,000 sales last year world wide. Like I said, fancy Nissan. What's funny here is that you think selling it as a "work truck" is acceptably for a LUXURY auto maker while you would completely dog Cadillac if they were to do anything even remotely similar. Sorry, but I'll take a "fancy Chevy" over a fancy Nissan any day of the week. I upvoted you on that....because its actually closer to the truth than some of us want to admit... Except that while the American market is important, China will be more important in the future than America as far as Cadillac goes and that is the real truth of the matter.

And you are missing the point of the entire conversation. SMK seems to find perfectly acceptable to criticize GM for putting out Cadillacs as nothing more than "fancy Chevys" while his own favorite is going to do the EXACT same damn thing with Nissan. Just look at the ton of excuses he has given for that being okay while GMs is not and you will where the last two pages here have gone horribly and laughably wrong. Oh and after having sat in a CLA a couple of weeks ago, I can fully understand the level of criticism heaved its way by just about every major publication out there. Why have that mess when I could a RWD, and much more composed, C-Class for just a little bit more cash?