surreal1272

. There you go again. Let me tell you something about the Lexus NX. It is a Fancy Toyota RAV4. Funny how you don't say anything about that but when it involves Cadillac, it is somehow a different story. Normally I'd agree, but the Lexus NX beat the venerable BMW X3 in MT's recent comparison. It may be a fancy RAV4 but it has the substance, and the Buick being a Chinese car - I'm okay with it, but no way hell would I consider it. That really isn't saying much to me as the X3 has always been unremarkable. You also missed the bigger point of why I said it in the first place.

Just another day in the "Thanks for screwing it up Fiat" department. Pathetic what they are doing at this point.

. There you go again. Let me tell you something about the Lexus NX. It is a Fancy Toyota RAV4. Funny how you don't say anything about that but when it involves Cadillac, it is somehow a different story.

The people who don't have Jag dealers near them... Not the mention the people who don't want Jaguar maintenance after the warranty runs out.

There is no other, so-called "Vans Division". The nameplate you are searching for is "mercedes-benz". That will be on the exact same dealership lots. "Van division". LMAO!

Oh I agree about the unfair comparisons from both sides but it sure doesn't stop certain trolls from harping on and on about the same thing, even after they have been shot down each and every time with the truth. And I will agree to disagree with the RWD vs FWD and it not being a big deal. On certain types of cars it isn't but the luxury market is not one of them for the most part. Regarding the Nissan statement I made, I do not know how you can continue to misread what was being said here. If you would have actually read what I said and not what you think I said, you would know that I personally don't care about their partnership with Nissan but when homer starts in with his trolling and referring to Cadillacs as "fancy Chevys" then I will return the criticism in kind. .

And you are missing the point of the entire conversation. SMK seems to find perfectly acceptable to criticize GM for putting out Cadillacs as nothing more than "fancy Chevys" while his own favorite is going to do the EXACT same damn thing with Nissan. Just look at the ton of excuses he has given for that being okay while GMs is not and you will where the last two pages here have gone horribly and laughably wrong. Oh and after having sat in a CLA a couple of weeks ago, I can fully understand the level of criticism heaved its way by just about every major publication out there. Why have that mess when I could a RWD, and much more composed, C-Class for just a little bit more cash? Daimler and Nissan-Renault are joint developing the 2017 Frontier chassis, so yes it is corporate platform share product, but the Mercedes will get a Mercedes engine and transmission and interior. This is also developed for Europe, Middle East and South America, if sold in the USA it will be sold by the Vans division and marketed as a commercial vehicle. For a work truck I am sure the Frontier chassis will be serviceable. They aren't selling the Mercedes pickup as a luxury or performance product, it is the pick up equivalent of the Metris, a work vehicle. Cadillac, Lincoln, Acura, and Lexus, build luxury cars/crossovers of front drive platforms that are inferior to rear drive platforms that you can put more power into, longer wheelbases with better ride, better interior room, etc. That is the difference. These front drive products hit a performance ceiling that the rear drive product can far exceed. And many people would rather have a C-class, it outsold the CLA 86,000 to 29,000 in the USA last year. C-class racked up over 443,000 sales last year world wide. Like I said, fancy Nissan. What's funny here is that you think selling it as a "work truck" is acceptably for a LUXURY auto maker while you would completely dog Cadillac if they were to do anything even remotely similar. Sorry, but I'll take a "fancy Chevy" over a fancy Nissan any day of the week. I upvoted you on that....because its actually closer to the truth than some of us want to admit... Except that while the American market is important, China will be more important in the future than America as far as Cadillac goes and that is the real truth of the matter.

And you are missing the point of the entire conversation. SMK seems to find perfectly acceptable to criticize GM for putting out Cadillacs as nothing more than "fancy Chevys" while his own favorite is going to do the EXACT same damn thing with Nissan. Just look at the ton of excuses he has given for that being okay while GMs is not and you will where the last two pages here have gone horribly and laughably wrong. Oh and after having sat in a CLA a couple of weeks ago, I can fully understand the level of criticism heaved its way by just about every major publication out there. Why have that mess when I could a RWD, and much more composed, C-Class for just a little bit more cash?

I'm officially long past caring what the f@#k you think about anything because you never see anyone that competes with Benz as anything other than $h! while thinking that even the lowliest Benz and their future Nissan Frontier are perfectly acceptable in the luxury world.

Oops.

And you sure as hell can't use the sales argument here as an indicator of a car being better than it's competition because then you are just straight talking out of your ass. The CLA has been ridiculed in may reviews since it came out for it's lackluster characteristics. The ATS has had far more positive reviews than the CLA by a country mile so that kills your asinine argument yet again. To further trash your sales argument, I submit the Escalade. It has outsold the GLS every year. Now, using your "logic", is the Escalade better since it outsells the obviously superior Mercedes? Just think about that for more than a damn minute before moving that bar again. I didn't say I think the CLA is better, I just said that more people rather buy it than an ATS. The CLA always gets crapped on for being such a horrible car, you want to say it is equal to a $20k Focus, but they sold more of them than Cadillac sold ATS. So the public must not think it is so bad. Personally, I don't like the CLA, the interior is sort of cheap, it feels sort of cramped inside too, could be the high belt line of it. Here in lies Cadillac's problem, the ATS can't even outsell a CLA. Let alone outsell a Lexus IS or A4. Even if Cadillac makes a good car, they can't convince people to buy it. The ATS got good reviews for it's driving dynamics, the magazines love the chassis, but marketing hasn't figured out how to get people to buy it. The Camaro is another good point by Oldshurst, you have a V8 and a supercharged V8 offered in the Camaro, yet no V8 in the ATS. Cadillac is better than Chevy, the Cadillac should have the better engines. If the ATS can't mop the floor with a Camaro (or Mustang), how can it beat the world's best? The Mercedes GL outsold the Escalade in 2013, by 7,000 units. And Escalade had 3 body styles to the GL's 1. The Escalade has outsold the GL in 2014 and 2015, but it hasn't outsold it "every year." This is the only segment that Cadillac and Mercedes have a good battle going, but the Escalade and Navigator founded the segment. What is interesting is how the Navigator has tanked, and the BMW X7 is about to emerge. Escalade is still tough to beat. Maybe you forgot what I said the other day regarding Barnum, suckers, and your average CLA buyer. And yes the Escalade has outsold it more often than not so your weak rebuttal really means nothing. And I am simply laughing my ass off at the "well the Escalade has more choices than the GL". Simply astounding the level of pure hypocrisy you have shown here. BTW, while you are telling everyone that Cadillac should just relegate themselves to being a second tier luxury company, stew in the fact that the CLA can't beat a second luxury Buick.

Want further proof that even Mercedes lemmings will buy crap like the CLA even when it can't beat a Buick?Seriously. Try that weak and tired argument somewhere else.

And you sure as hell can't use the sales argument here as an indicator of a car being better than it's competition because then you are just straight talking out of your ass. The CLA has been ridiculed in may reviews since it came out for it's lackluster characteristics. The ATS has had far more positive reviews than the CLA by a country mile so that kills your asinine argument yet again. To further trash your sales argument, I submit the Escalade. It has outsold the GLS every year. Now, using your "logic", is the Escalade better since it outsells the obviously superior Mercedes? Just think about that for more than a damn minute before moving that bar again.

Moving the bar while making more excuses while you try to trash the domestic competition. How utterly typical when you have lost all other arguments here today. Oh and I want to see proof positive that someone would take that pile of FWD CLA over a RWD ATS. Otherwise, it's just more BS excuses and hyperbole spewing from your keyboard. Of course, the last time I checked no ATS was compared to a Focus but the CLA sure was and it was not complimentary in any way. And hence my thought process with an ATS does not make me wanna belt out loud Sliiiiiiiiick Black Caaaaaadillac with solid gold hubcaps....making me feel like a king, and hence why I made this thread to see who else may have this doubt about Cadillac...if not the whole brand, at least for just that one model, the ATS. It is quite sad, for a Cadillac enthusiast, to see an equivalent Mercedes Benz product....at least in price if not in quality, to outsell the ATS... It is also quite sad to see a similar priced Chevrolet on the same lot as said Cadillac product. It wouldnt be so bad had Cadillac been stand alone....but to share the same dealership and to have a lesser brand within the same family compete with you on price defeats the purpose of being top tier 1 luxury. The Buick dilemma is less with the Envision and XT5, because the price of entry is higher and Buick is premium as opposed to Chevy being....gulp....MAINSTREAM and CHEAP....when a Sonic costs $12 000 CDN or so....to have a Chevrolet Malibu Premium touch ATS price tag....to have a Chevrolet alpha platformed brother to cost AS MUCH as the ATS.... Like I said...Cadillac sells the ATS alone in its OWN dealership, not so bad....but to have Chevrolet there.... The ATS besides a Malibu....and the ATS just looks like yet another ho-hum compact car.... RWD? Big PHOQUING deal!!!!! The CLA from M-B proves it to the ATS that RWD is NO BIG DEAL!!! Besides....although I have a hard time accepting the Camaro....the Camaro is a stunner.... The Camaro V8 is actually a BETTER machine than the ATS no matter what engine resides in the ATS....and the kicker, other than the ATS-V TTV6, the Camaro enjoys the SAME engines...BUT....between "V" and "SS", the "SS" has the more prestigious engine.... Proof? The bigger brother CTS-V has got it under its hood.... And the Camaro will gain better versions too.... Different target market you say? I say PHOOEY!!!! Cadillac, JDN better figure out what direction they need to steer Cadillac in, and yes he is only starting....but as of 2016.....I aint singing SLIIIIIIICK BLACK CAAAAAAADILLAC..... I more in tune to singing.... And Lord knows I DONT WANT TO DO THAT!!!!! I don't know about Canada, but Cadillac does not share dealerships with Chevrolet.

And that "logic" right there is why you're not in charge of product planning. In one breath you say they need an XT5 with 600HP and then you say they can't because of it being FWD. Make up your mind on what you think Cadillac needs to do. I know one thing. They are better than second tier luxury and don't need to worry about second tier competition. Knowing that, why would they NOT keep aiming for the best? That is the whole problem with your "logic". XT5 should have been built on the Alpha platform. There should be a 3-row XT7 on Omega. That is what they should do, either of those products could take a 600 hp V8, a 400 hp twin turbo V6, etc.But they chose to make the XT5 a front driver so they could platform share with an Acadia, and that platform has a long wheel base option so there is your XT7. This is how to build a crossover on the cheap, not aiming for what is best. Lincoln and Acura build crossovers on the cheap, it got them no where. If the XT5 and XT7 were rear drive on alpha and Omega, I wouldn't be opposed to an XT4 mid-size front drive crossover at $40k to compete with the Lexus RX. There should be an XT3, Alpha would be better, but the people buying a $35k base price crossover are clueless to drivetrain, so they could do anything. The ideal would be an Alpha XT3 and a D2XX XT2. And the GLA and CLA should have been built on a RWD platform instead of going for the cheap market. Good grief bar mover.

And that "logic" right there is why you're not in charge of product planning. In one breath you say they need an XT5 with 600HP and then you say they can't because of it being FWD. Make up your mind on what you think Cadillac needs to do. I know one thing. They are better than second tier luxury and don't need to worry about second tier competition. Knowing that, why would they NOT keep aiming for the best? That is the whole problem with your "logic".

And yes I down voted you for it SMK.

Again, you have a huge problem with comparing apples to apples. Chevy-mainstream brand that also sells high performance cars Mercedes-sells uber luxury cars right next to their cheap vans and soon to be fancy Nissan pick ups. When Cadillac starts selling vans right next to their Escalades, then you have an argument. The fact is that you don't and you have to constantly move the bar to create all these phantom issues for GM while ignoring those very same issues with Mercedes. Only you will not see the problem with you asinine comparison.

Glad to see you rooting for them to steal sales away from the Colorado and Canyon. I expect them to just make a work truck with a turbo 4 engine, lower volume. But if they wanted to make a luxury truck or a performance version, they could easily take over this segment.Fancy Nissan. Thanks for playing. Also thanks for the laugh when you said that it will steal sales from the GM twins. Nissan sure hasn't done it but hey, a troll can dream right?Again, fancy Nissan. Oh and I don't know where you live but the biggest Mercedes dealership here in Phoenix sells their cars and vans on the same lot. That new Nissan will look great sitting near a $100k S Class </sarcasm> I live in Pittsburgh, and the Chevy Dealerships have Corvette Z06's on the same lot as a Chevy City Express, which is a Nissan too. I am guessing not many Corvette buyers leave the lot when they see a compact class commercial van on the lot. The Mercedes truck won't have a Nissan engine or transmission, it will have Mercedes powertrain, but they haven't even said if they are selling it in the USA yet. I still have a wait and see approach on that, they haven't even shown a concept vehicle of it yet. And yes Mercedes is in business to make money, they aren't a non-profit. GM is also in business to make money. People here act like it is a good thing if Cadillac sells 200,000 cars a year globally at $50k per vehicle with slim margins because they lack the high profit crossovers and V-series products they need. So after being busted on the dealership front, you are going to try and compare Checy lots with the supposed gold standard in luxury Mercedes lots? Seriously? And you wonder why a serious discussion can't be had with you. Oh and not one person said it was a good idea for Cadillac to operate on slim margins. That is just asinine to even assume.

To be honest, I think it looks pretty good.. Fancy? Doubt it. But I think it looks pretty good from that shot. I have a feeling the rear end will look a little out of place because that rear tire looks to be pretty close to the cab meaning short wheelbase..meaning frumpy proportions.. But the from proportions look decent so maybe not. I think they sold out for dollars when they made the CLA and GLA.. This is a little more icing on the cake. ..Mmmm..cake.. The term "fancy" is taken from SMK's claim of Escalades being "fancy Chevys" while his favorite make wants to put out a "fancy Nissan".

Glad to see you rooting for them to steal sales away from the Colorado and Canyon. I expect them to just make a work truck with a turbo 4 engine, lower volume. But if they wanted to make a luxury truck or a performance version, they could easily take over this segment.Fancy Nissan. Thanks for playing. Also thanks for the laugh when you said that it will steal sales from the GM twins. Nissan sure hasn't done it but hey, a troll can dream right?Again, fancy Nissan. Oh and I don't know where you live but the biggest Mercedes dealership here in Phoenix sells their cars and vans on the same lot. That new Nissan will look great sitting near a $100k S Class </sarcasm>

If the original Fusion wasn't based on the Mazda 6 it wouldn't have been nearly as successful. Food for thought......... Exactly. Why do some Ford fans forget that Ford made their living just like that for twenty years with Mazda? Sales from both did not suffer as a result of them "selling against each other" so why would this? Answer? It doesn't.

Hey. Check out this "Fancy Nissan".

Then maybe you should pay particular attention to what I'm actually saying instead of commenting with blinders on. I'm not going to walk you through it anymore. You are STILL stuck on 'SALES = EVERYTHING', despite being told a thousand times that's not Cadillac's goal.Who cares how many of what sold, and vs. others sold? You just don't get it. Sure; an XT5 V-Sport would be neat, it may happen, but it's no 'make or break' model. Exactly. He can't seem to get that little fact through his head.

Not if the quality of materials, fit n finish is not there and it does not scream luxury. In your opinion, have you detected anything through either picture or a journalist's remark (someone who has experienced it in person) that would suggest that this new Lincoln will not have quality materials, fit or finish? What I see, is continuous improvement in a brand that is delivering on product, but is a step or two behind in perception. I bet this Continental will immensely help on the latter. Hey Guest, How about sign up and make an account with us?? Officially become a member of the great community here at CnG! Good group of guys here. I agree with ccap. Don't be shy. Join us for civil discussions about all makes and models of cars from yesteryear to today.