surreal1272

Sorry Drew but that is not true at all and I'm not the biggest NASCAR fan in the world here (even though I was raised in the heart of NASCAR country for 35 years). All racing is hard as hell.

Or, BMW was chasing Mercedes for the lead, so they had to resort to cheap tactics. . . Quick note on smk's point, BMW outsold Mercedes by about 3,000 vehicles. And part of Mercedes total sales comes from vans. Just saying this is all a matter of perspective and just a shell game that every make plays at one time or another

Sorry but I just don't get the big deal being made here about a nameplate going smaller.

I know it's still 1699 in Amish land, but get over the past...this is the future... Is it really now, Moltar? 1911BakerElectric.jpg The electric cars of today are far beyond the primitives of the ancient past... They're still stunted compared to ICE vehicles, just as they were then. They are mere midgets. That is not even close to the truth. EVs are far more advanced and have far more range than 100 years ago. It's not even comparable except to people who have a hard on for seeing nothing else succeed.

I know it's still 1699 in Amish land, but get over the past...this is the future... Is it really now, Moltar? 1911BakerElectric.jpg The electric cars of today are far beyond the primitives of the ancient past... Going electric is good way to say FU to the oil companies, the Texas sleaze and the OPEC filth... ^^THIS!! Screw fossil fuels and the people who use it to hold citizens hostage and prevent real growth in energy.

I'm 5'10" and had no problem seeing out of the car. Getting in is a bit of a chore but the Mustang is for me too due to having a horrible back. That's why I have always preferred the Challenger. Getting in it is like getting in my Magnum. Easy and very comfortable to drive in.

Why not? Two words for you. Financial suicide. You can't just jack up the price without jacking the content as well. The current prices have been conditioned to the average buyer. Just jacking up the price because you think you can will not suffice to the average buyer. We are not talking about rare commodities that attract artificial price inflation. We are talking about cars that sell well over 100K a year between them ( The Camaro and Corvette). Low volume models like the GT350R can do that. High volume can't without increasing the content. See, that's the trap the GM is in. Volume goals do lead to financial suicide. It already happened. It's a mistake in the long-run. It's a fact. But why do high volume there? Why not restrict the supply? And the content is there, believe me...believe Al, believe Bong. Artificial price inflation? I'm talking about fair value. It seems to me all this car is missing is a luxury interior for it to be a fine halo sports car for many luxury brands. The average buyer is not buying an SS 1LE or GT350 or Corvette. These guys have the money. Especially if the value is there. There are three kinds of customers. Value - which means rock bottom price, and basic features. Then there is performance - which means they will pay more if the value is there. That is the buyer. The last buyer is called the luxury buyer. You cater to every whim for this buyer. And some brands which are not exotic have managed to move their performance buyers to the luxury buyer space. Since this is still in this reference frame, a car that rivals many above its price class. Make it as limited as the Z28 then. Alpha is getting amortized already with the lower Camaros. It's not like they're going to convert every SS buyer to ILE. That's not what's going on. The problem with your suggestion about what they should do, is that it is the exact opposite of what is making them money right no. Their profits per car have been improving every year for the last few years so here's a question for you. Why fix what isn't broken? Really ccap? It's one thing to disagree with him on this but that honestly a little insulting IMO.

Why not? Two words for you. Financial suicide. You can't just jack up the price without jacking the content as well. The current prices have been conditioned to the average buyer. Just jacking up the price because you think you can will not suffice to the average buyer. We are not talking about rare commodities that attract artificial price inflation. We are talking about cars that sell well over 100K a year between them ( The Camaro and Corvette). Low volume models like the GT350R can do that. High volume can't without increasing the content.

I would love to see proof of this "fear" you speak of because I believe that is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. What you are saying is pure speculation, just like Bong but he is the only one catching grief for his speculation. Just saying that you are using a double standard here Suave. Maybe, just maybe, GM doesn't want to price the Camaro any higher because they have something that Ford does not, which is why Ford is able to price the GT350 the way they do. It's called the Corvette. It's really that simple. It's not fear. It's simple math and the common sense to not step on the toes of your halo car by pricing it too close to it. I fully agree with that sentiment. Which is why I proposed ages ago that the Corvette should also go up in price. It should be more than its direct competitors. The Corvette can be plenty pricey (although a great value compared to some super cars out there) but it does not need to go up in price unless it seriously goes up in content (speaking of lower trims not trims like the Z06).

I would love to see proof of this "fear" you speak of because I believe that is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. What you are saying is pure speculation, just like Bong but he is the only one catching grief for his speculation. Just saying that you are using a double standard here Suave. Maybe, just maybe, GM doesn't want to price the Camaro any higher because they have something that Ford does not, which is why Ford is able to price the GT350 the way they do. It's called the Corvette. It's really that simple. It's not fear. It's simple math and the common sense to not step on the toes of your halo car by pricing it too close to it. I don't even think it's that, necessarily. After all, the Z/28 and ZL1 overlapped the C6. And the ZL1 replacement will as well. I just think that if the Corvette is well-executed and the Camaro is well-executed the buying public will give each one their props and pay checks in good measure. But ya: Ford doesn't have a Corvette. And the only way they can fight that is through asymmetrical warfare, or something. Disregard. Had a "derp" moment.

I would love to see proof of this "fear" you speak of because I believe that is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. What you are saying is pure speculation, just like Bong but he is the only one catching grief for his speculation. Just saying that you are using a double standard here Suave. Maybe, just maybe, GM doesn't want to price the Camaro any higher because they have something that Ford does not, which is why Ford is able to price the GT350 the way they do. It's called the Corvette. It's really that simple. It's not fear. It's simple math and the common sense to not step on the toes of your halo car by pricing it too close to it.

Ya know what's ironic? That is something almost EXACTLY like Wings would say. Shelby was a part of the 13+ GT500s. This is the first that I'm aware of that he is not a part of, for obvious reasons. I don't think Ford, or anybody else, is too worried what you think about the price of their GT350/R. The lone example I have.. it sat on the showroom for 2 days before being sold. I have a feeling Ford will be quite satisfied with that turnaround. Sorry but like Bong pointed out, the fact that Ford is now offering upgrades that were previously unavailable on the GT350, is at least an indication that Ford is trying to increase the value of it with the 1LE on it's way. It's a reactionary move by Ford because if they really felt the car was worth that (vs. the competition mind you, not in general), they would not have to offer that. I am not saying that his 100% the case but the evidence is certainly there to support such an assertion. Just something to consider before thinking he is just trolling to troll like the quitter did.

Never, not once, said that you did but the overall tone and words from the Ford camp was exactly what I said. I really could give a crap about the price one way or the other. All cars are overpriced. I'm just saying that the Shelby name isn't as valuable as it used to be. And are you not the one who said, on this thread, that you knew of a Shelby selling for exactly list price? Yes, I am the one who gave the ONLY example of an actual Shelby's price being sold. That was my point. We don't have examples of ones selling over or under or anything else. So to say, "...it would sell far above list because of demand for the NAME. It did not happen" is not necessarily true because out of all of the Shelbys that have been sold in the last couple of months we have one lone example of it selling at list price and zero selling at any other mark up or mark downs. We just don't know. Yes, they did insinuate or straight up say that but I don't know why you're telling me what other people have said.. that means nothing to this conversation unless you were either grouping me in with them or insinuating I said it as well. Absolutely correct, 99% of cars on the market are over priced. I'll give the sub 15k cars a break.. they probably aren't over priced.. but that's about it in my books. And this is why it sucks that cars are a hobby of mine(ours). If I could, I'd drive a different vehicle every 6 months and love it. I just love driving different things and with the price of cars that isn't practical in any way. What's your opinion on the 45k car? I'm genuinely curious because that is kind of an awkward price point for these cars. Never mind ccap because you seem to be going out of your way to misunderstand the context of what I have said here. Moving on.

Never, not once, said that you did but the overall tone and words from the Ford camp was exactly what I said. I really could give a crap about the price one way or the other. All cars are overpriced. I'm just saying that the Shelby name isn't as valuable as it used to be. And are you not the one who said, on this thread, that you knew of a Shelby selling for exactly list price?

You are not following me at all and your number example is way extreme. Fact is that there were several commenters here when the GT350 and 350R were announced. who crowed endlessly about the Shelby name being more valuable and that it would sell far above list because of demand for the NAME. It did not happen, by your own admission. That is all I am saying. No need to read any further into that.

Not based on what's going on up here with the GT500 and Zeta ZL1. Consumers know that SVT is the real development muscle behind the Shelby name, so it's judged accordingly. ZL1 doesn't have the name recognition the Shelby name does. How many people outside of us car nuts know The Legend has even passed? Probably most that buy a Shelby and prior to the GT350 he was a part of all of the cars with his name on them. Like the 662hp GT500. The name Shelby carries more weight than 1LE and will maintain a higher resale value if both cars have the same mileage on them. How much? No clue if I'm being honest. No clue at all. I just know the Shelby name has a lot of value. Actually, if I'm not wrong, the GT350 doesn't have SVT anywhere on it.. At least it isn't in the name. Maybe they have it engraved on the valve covers like they've done in the past. If Shelby had all that recognition, then it would sell above list price. It would not just be predicated on the used market value. Just saying. If it is priced correctly then it wouldn't, right? Or are you saying it doesn't matter what the list price is people will pay above it? And according to Bong, it is priced too high, or in this case, in line or where Shelbys "should" be. I guess what do you mean by " It would not just be predicated on the used market value." because that's where collector cars are also. Yes, used, but they have a solid demand still. Personally, I love the ZL1. It's right up my ally. Big V8, supercharged, 580hp, magnet shocks for a softer AND tighter suspension when I want them. It seems like the best GT of the two..that either of them had made up until now. Now the Mustang GT and Camaro SS are just better overall cars but I'd still take a ZL1 over a GT or SS in a heartbeat. To me, it was a "bruiser". It had brawn. Okay that went a little off topic.. oh well. On another off-topic bit.. check out how insane this dealer is. Mind you, this is just a Mustang GT. ][]]&listingId=413855461&Log=0]http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=62249&endYear=2017&modelCode1=MUST&showcaseOwnerId=3251723&makeCode1=FORD&startYear=2013&firstRecord=0&searchRadius=100&showcaseListingId=387682870&mmt=[FORD[MUST[]][]]&listingId=413855461&Log=0 $100k. lol Edit: So I realize this is not scientific in ANY real way but when I sifted through AutoTrader for 13+ GT500s and ZL1 the GT500s tend to be roughly 5-7k more for about the same mileage. I tried to be at least somehwhat "accurate". Both between 3-15k miles and the GT500s were between 47k-57k(50-55 was the norm) and the ZL1s were more in the 40-50k range(they tended to have ~3-5k more miles as well). But for 45k I'd rather have a ZL1 than an SS 1LE. Actually, what would you guys rather have for 45k? It's kind of an awkward price for these cars. Can't get a GT350 or Z/28, could work really hard to find a GT500, or loaded up SS or GTs? Or throw the Challenger in there as well. No Hellcat but you could probably still find SRTs for that price. No. What I am saying is that if the Shelby name was so special, it would go for more than list, like it has in the past. The fact that you don't see that with this version is very telling to me. As far as being overpriced, I will hold judgement until there has actually been a side by side comparison of it and the Camaro, be it the 1LE or something else.

Not based on what's going on up here with the GT500 and Zeta ZL1. Consumers know that SVT is the real development muscle behind the Shelby name, so it's judged accordingly. ZL1 doesn't have the name recognition the Shelby name does. How many people outside of us car nuts know The Legend has even passed? Probably most that buy a Shelby and prior to the GT350 he was a part of all of the cars with his name on them. Like the 662hp GT500. The name Shelby carries more weight than 1LE and will maintain a higher resale value if both cars have the same mileage on them. How much? No clue if I'm being honest. No clue at all. I just know the Shelby name has a lot of value. Actually, if I'm not wrong, the GT350 doesn't have SVT anywhere on it.. At least it isn't in the name. Maybe they have it engraved on the valve covers like they've done in the past. If Shelby had all that recognition, then it would sell above list price. It would not just be predicated on the used market value. Just saying.

There's no irony. You're just avoiding the reality of the situation. Hell, they got this exact thread cooking over in FIN and they're admitting that the changes Ford's making to the Shelby options list are a reaction to the 1LE's pricing. I'm sorry if these things sting you. But that's kinda what Bumblebees do. There is something to be said about rent free living. When you leave the conversation hours ago, yet someone can't stop dropping your name, you know the living is good. What's funny is to call us two "like Wings and Cosworth". I have grilled you on Tesla left and right which is something the Ford wonder twins could never and did not ever do. I don't need to agree with anyone here and I could give two $h!s if someone has my back or not. You know that for a fact.

One more thing Bong. SHOUTY FONT SHOUTY FONT, SHOUTY FONT!!!!! NOW IN COLOR!!

The shouty font is awesome. It's the only way you can get someone to truly listen to what you're saying, even if what you're saying is completely absent of facts, truth, or anything resembling a sane conversation. </sarcasm>

You dropped my name into this Olds. Of course I'm going to retort especially when you mistakenly think I was talking to you on the other page. Just suck it for once and leave my name out of &#036;h&#33; that has nothing to do with me. It's that simple. Good grief man. I'll leave the drama queen schtick to you.

Hey, if they bought one right out of the gate then good for them. If they didn't then that's between them and their wallet. But where your comparison breaks down a bit is the fact that it took Ford two or three years to reel in the Chevy. The Alpha Camaro was already capable of being a headache for the Shelby as soon as it dropped, which was only months after the Shelby. Which, in turn, is already seeing it's options list juggled around in order to try and fight back. Yeah and? That my friend is normal business in the industry... Thing is... People in Greece, the ones that can actually buy a new car in 2015...are buying brand new Mustangs... So are the Brits... They are peeved off that they arent getting the visceral Mustangs that Hammond kept on taking about... But that is the thing though EL K... Lets talk like adults... Its hard to engineer a classic pony car to sell to the world when for 50 years all you've ever heard was how the rest of the world views the classic muscle car as uncouth... When it comes to a mythological creature like the Mustang, Ford had to really be careful NOT to screw it up for us and for them....as you know EL K, Ford is engineering only ONE Mustang platform for the world...only one... They miscalculated...its OK...they are correcting....dont act like a douche...you know what is what... Chevy...BEFORE the Corvette went racing with the C5...was a JOKE to the world....even when the C5R was winning, the world was laughing... Even when the C6R was winning, the world was still laughing...only the French in France started loving it...now...with the C7....the world is starting to take notice...CUE IN SURREAL HEREYes Surreal, the French started loving that good 'ol V8 sound, yeah...like how CCAP and myself love the GT350 sound...kinda how universally, FERRARI ENGINES ARE REVERED for THEIR SOUND...hell a Ferrari is worth their price of admission SOLELY on the way they sound...who cares of they CONTINUE to burn to the ground! How many years...decades does that make for the Vette finally to get world acceptance? Dont kid yourself EL K... The C7 Vette is still not as revered in the world as it is here in North America...the C7 is still eons behind in respect as the Porsche 911 is world wide... Ford....with the GT350...made a EUROPEAN style SPORTS CAR....the Jay Leno video CLEARLY states that...and that video CLEARLY gives the reasons why... Yet....you seem to be all hell bent to dismiss ANY qualities the GT350 has... You know...the 1LE probably feels like a muscle car...someone who HATES muscle cars...like 99.99% of the rest of the world, probably will DESPISE a Camaro 1LE...and if GM was to go global with the Camaro...it would probably fail in that regard... Why? Unlike the Mustang...where the Mustang is a mythological creature...the Camaro is not... The world wanted a muscle car Mustang...they got a more European car....but they are OK with that... If the world got a muscle car Camaro...they would probably hate it...like I said...the Vette is as much a muscle car as its supposed to be...and yet...its laughed upon...and a Vette has more cachet than a Camaro world wide me thinks... PS: you think Ford marketers werent noticing the failures of Vette and Cadillac on European shores in the 1990s? You think they did not know the dangers of selling pure Americana to Europeans and how difficult it is? PSS: Ford of Europe has more presence than GM does...not Opel...Europeans think that Opel is truly European...German... They also think that of Ford of Europe... But a Ford Mustang is PURE Ford USA.... Think about how hard it is to engineer driving dynamics on a classic like a Mustang... GM STILL hasnt perfected that with its Corvette....get what Im sayin? Porsche is fantastic....they managed to create a legend that both continents enjoy, and literally for the same values... Ford and GM are still finding themselves in that regard....the world wide image thing... Why you felt the need to bring me into this, without knowing why I posted what I posted in the first place, is kind of silly and pointless but if it helps you write another diatribe laden novella. diatribe laden novella. You are full of those...more than mine... And yet you responded too...which you also have a history of doing...non...stop... About the sound.... Yeah..I know why you posted it...you were directing that to me...and with the FERRARI response I gave you...well, ITS OK...I guess people dont buy Ferraris for their engine noises, they buy them for their reliability... Dude...even women have orgasms when they hear Ferraris drive by... But yeah...engine noises arent that important for performance cars... . Seriously? You didn't make that half page post (on top of the many long winded posts you have made)? Must have been someone else who goes on endlessly that I was thinking about. My bad.Oh and not one post of mine (prior to the last two) was in any shape or form directed to you, about you, or for you. I'm not going to argue this with you because it is the truth and nothing you can ramble on about will change that. That conversation about engine sounds was between me and ccap41 and I never said I didn't care about the sound so you can just drop the bull$h! Olds because I ain't buyin'. That is all.

Hey, if they bought one right out of the gate then good for them. If they didn't then that's between them and their wallet.But where your comparison breaks down a bit is the fact that it took Ford two or three years to reel in the Chevy. The Alpha Camaro was already capable of being a headache for the Shelby as soon as it dropped, which was only months after the Shelby. Which, in turn, is already seeing it's options list juggled around in order to try and fight back. Yeah and?That my friend is normal business in the industry... Thing is... People in Greece, the ones that can actually buy a new car in 2015...are buying brand new Mustangs... So are the Brits... They are peeved off that they arent getting the visceral Mustangs that Hammond kept on taking about... But that is the thing though EL K... Lets talk like adults... Its hard to engineer a classic pony car to sell to the world when for 50 years all you've ever heard was how the rest of the world views the classic muscle car as uncouth... When it comes to a mythological creature like the Mustang, Ford had to really be careful NOT to screw it up for us and for them....as you know EL K, Ford is engineering only ONE Mustang platform for the world...only one... They miscalculated...its OK...they are correcting....dont act like a douche...you know what is what... Chevy...BEFORE the Corvette went racing with the C5...was a JOKE to the world....even when the C5R was winning, the world was laughing... Even when the C6R was winning, the world was still laughing...only the French in France started loving it...now...with the C7....the world is starting to take notice... CUE IN SURREAL HERE Yes Surreal, the French started loving that good 'ol V8 sound, yeah...like how CCAP and myself love the GT350 sound...kinda how universally, FERRARI ENGINES ARE REVERED for THEIR SOUND...hell a Ferrari is worth their price of admission SOLELY on the way they sound...who cares of they CONTINUE to burn to the ground! How many years...decades does that make for the Vette finally to get world acceptance? Dont kid yourself EL K... The C7 Vette is still not as revered in the world as it is here in North America...the C7 is still eons behind in respect as the Porsche 911 is world wide... Ford....with the GT350...made a EUROPEAN style SPORTS CAR....the Jay Leno video CLEARLY states that...and that video CLEARLY gives the reasons why... Yet....you seem to be all hell bent to dismiss ANY qualities the GT350 has... You know...the 1LE probably feels like a muscle car...someone who HATES muscle cars...like 99.99% of the rest of the world, probably will DESPISE a Camaro 1LE...and if GM was to go global with the Camaro...it would probably fail in that regard... Why? Unlike the Mustang...where the Mustang is a mythological creature...the Camaro is not... The world wanted a muscle car Mustang...they got a more European car....but they are OK with that... If the world got a muscle car Camaro...they would probably hate it...like I said...the Vette is as much a muscle car as its supposed to be...and yet...its laughed upon...and a Vette has more cachet than a Camaro world wide me thinks... PS: you think Ford marketers werent noticing the failures of Vette and Cadillac on European shores in the 1990s? You think they did not know the dangers of selling pure Americana to Europeans and how difficult it is? PSS: Ford of Europe has more presence than GM does...not Opel...Europeans think that Opel is truly European...German... They also think that of Ford of Europe... But a Ford Mustang is PURE Ford USA.... Think about how hard it is to engineer driving dynamics on a classic like a Mustang... GM STILL hasnt perfected that with its Corvette....get what Im sayin? Porsche is fantastic....they managed to create a legend that both continents enjoy, and literally for the same values... Ford and GM are still finding themselves in that regard....the world wide image thing... Why you felt the need to bring me into this, without knowing why I posted what I posted in the first place, is kind of silly and pointless but if it helps you write another diatribe laden novella.

One last thing before I go. "So going forward, New Rule - Surreal or Kabong reply to Wings or FordCosworth, you get 2 warning points and a 2 day suspension. The same will happen in reverse."

Oh good lord people. Have a good one. I'm out of this non-sense for now.