turbo200

OC, Newbiewar is in Puente Hills, how far is that from you?

This is true, in terms of performance, the CTSV can take on the likes of the M3 and M5. But then if you understood this, why were you so adamant in your size comparisons? The CTS may be just as large dimmensionally as the 5, but it is nowhere near the complete car it is. The CTSV still does not meet the 5-series for quality and overall sophistication and performance, but it's near 50k cheaper, so that's understood.

Natalie Wood supposedly jumped off a yacht she was travelling on and drowned herself. purposely? I don't know. The whole cast and director of Rebel Without a Cause died tragically.

Since so many people seem to pay attention to the lead news bit and not the responding posts, why not post a retraction? The headline you last gave was "Shelved", there isn't an idiot out there that could misinterpret that. Then you went on to say it was delayed and could be canceled in the near term. The effects of sensationalistic, irresponsible journalism are exactly what happened to the last thread. Why don't you post a real retraction and say it hasn't been canceled? Anywho, I'm glad you removed it, since it promotes the exact thing I am talking about----misguided opinions led by sensationalistic journalism.

This does not equate with quality and sophistication missing in a CTS compared to a 5-series as empowah was saying. 5-series makes CTS appear like it isn't even a luxury car, rightfully since CTS is on average $10-15k cheaper similarly equipped.

natalie wood was definitely a hot number, hotter than Monroe, more classically beautiful

you are resilient and passionate for Buick...this is appreciated, but you're making me sound tired :AH-HA_wink: you have to read what I say carefully and don't misinterpret it....because that's what you're doing I never said the Lucerne was 5 years dated. I did say the interior was dated by that much though.... Lucerne's most disappointing aspect is the interior. For a car that bases around 27k to have an interior with subpar quality to an old Accord, and a drab dull design is not acceptable for where the market is today. I have high hopes for Buick, but if they plan on turning it around and surviving they need to wow the customer. They need to be revolutionary. I know this sounds repetitive, but they need to produce something on a much higher scale than the competition for the same price. This is what must happen for Buick to be around 10 years from now. They must create image NOW! It must be an upscale, elegant, romantic, desirable image. I look at the Lucerne interior and I see very little desirable about it. Then I touch it, and it dashes all my hopes for that car. Immediately, I know it's nothing special yet again. For shame, Buick. Buick is gradually dwindling to nothingness. Two sedans that don't stand out. One SUV that will stand out and draw the crowds bring hope. If you want to see something that hits the target market square on and has incredibly desirable features, look at the TSX interior, look at the IS' splashy exterior and terrific engine lineup, look at the RLs interior that looks like nothing GM could dream up at this point. These are the extra mile features that are put into vehicles at the competition to really WOW the consumer and shock them into beleiving there is no way that American crap down the street can compare. It is that shocking goodness that imparts a feeling of substance, richness, sophistication, and class. It takes creativity, it takes a willigness to take risks, it takes bringing the best engineering and quality you can bring to the table. The Lucerne is really just another Aurora, with nicer clothes and a neat gizmo suspension, creatively speaking at least.

I couldn't agree more with what you say....yes we're straying to this topic again.....remember, this is c&g?.......This is something most disparate with GM and other companies, and it's troubling to see you emphasize this as much as you do, knowing as much as you do.

no draw for me....agree with reg on this one off topic fly [just playing, nobody ever goes off topic at c&g], the G6, solstice, and gto are better than the bonnie

No killing animals for me. I might go fishing----I know it's killing, but I'd rather sedate a really large bear or deer than kill it. But I have no qualms with eating it----mmm good protein. I do want to become a vegetarian sometime down the line though.

Let's get this straight. Lucerne is absolutely competent and competitive but falls short in a couple obvious ways. The same cannot be said for the Avalon. You like to list a lot of little half-truths and half-baked facts that support your argument, but you refuse to look at the whole picture. Tangent alert: the dash plastics that are being compared in the Fusion and the Lucerne are the dash pads. Not the plastic surrounding the HVAC controls. Not the plastic that houses the center stack. The plastic the covers the entire dash. In the Fusion, it is a soft vinyl plastic. In the Lucerne, it is coarse, rough to the touch, decidedly truckish in feel, and not up to the standards of the Avalon and many others in its class. You wanna talk cheap plastics, the Ridgeline has a dash padding that feels better than this. It's the same plastic that's in the Impala, and it is inexcusable. I have already shared how I think this will affect sales, and I have also reiterated how this does not make Lucerne overall an uncompetitive vehicle, just obviously inferior in some areas. OC does not ever say Lucerne is inferior to Avalon. I think you focus too much on one thing, and don't see the overall picture enough. Avalon may not be quietest vehicle in the world [to quote Razor, BFD], but it's a really quiet car, in fact all Toyotas are. Avalon lacks the refinement of NS? Don't think so. Avalon has a more advanced engine that manages to make similar power ratings and allows Avalon to achieve higher speeds much faster while saving gasoline. This is a BIG deal. Northstar is a sweet engine. But the Avalon's engine is nothing to sneeze at. Nothing. So that argument fails in my book. Avalon's engine wins by a couple seconds thanks to newer tech and better efficiency. Tightest gaps? Why is this a revelation? GM should always have the tightest gaps in the segments they compete in. They're the number one company in the world, and this short-changing of customers needed to stop long ago. And the Avalon has tight gaps too, again no revelation. Lucerne has more overall room. Ya, it's like 10 inches longer, at least, it better have more room. Here's the big issue....when looking at the two cars and comparing objectively, there just aren't many places the Avalon falls short. To me, it's biggest fault is its exterior, which is subjective and many people don't care about design, though when they see something they like, they know they want it, and so a Buick with a nice design sells, or any other carmaker. Can you list the flaws of the Avalon? Avalon does not fall short in interior design, interior quality, engine refinement, engine tech, reliability, efficiency, driving dynamics......need I go on? It's an extremely extremely good car. Lucerne is also an extremely good car....unfortunately it does lag in some areas that are quite evident if you look objectively at the whole picture. GM must win back market share to survive. And to stem the growth of the juggernaut Toyota. In order to do this, they must produce the best cars they can, no compromises. The Lucerne is still compromised in some very obvious ways. Does that mean it falls short of the Avalon? This should'nt even matter, GM has the goods to blow that car away, but they settled for being just good enough. One final time: none of us says the Lucerne is uncompetitive, but what little flaws it does have are painfully obvious.

agreed on this respect except for the track record part....Toyota has a fantastic track record, not exclusive to trucks, and truck buyers usually aren't just truck buyers, they have a few other cars too. GM has image problems to topple that they can defeat through design and quality, and then the market will gradually begin to accept them back. Toyota has won over customers through superior quality and engineering, not just superior to GM either.

agreed. original poster was not listening to the REAL discussion and instead listed a whole bunch of half-truths that were not relevant here.

try adding something of value next time.

what's your personal agenda? settling a score with me?.......

I've seen a few MCs on the road....

is this tatem o'neil's mother? i can see where she would have dynamic screen presence. that smile is beautiful. yes, she is on a different scale compared to our Jessica and Jennifer's of today---i guess I find something appreciable in them all. Have you checked out Beyonce today?

i'm unclear as to the progress of sigma II and this redesign.....so far I know it won't be refreshed any time soon, we're just getting the full redesign and I am 99% sure it will be on sigma II. the redesign should be arriving within the next year or two.

why why why do i read this stuff

i see a lot of the new bodystyle impalas, but whenever I bother to look I see the barcode in the passenger rear window indicating it's a rental, literally almost everytime i check for it.

what is the stereotype? saw a new M5 today from behind only, looked pretty good, from behind....have yet to see a new 9-5 I see GTOs about as often as I see all Pontiacs in LA, which is very rarely, but sporadically every now and then, not daily but every few days....and i've been noticing a lot more G6s lately.

I will look her up.....[and I'm only a fan of Jessica cause of her looks too. yes, she's overhyped, but she's got something cute going on under that. and she reminds me of a girl i fell in love with.

evok, i know this is totally off topic, and you can take this to PM if necessary, but how soon can we expect that CTS. I'm worried that someone said it's a 2009 MY car now. I thought we could be expecting it as soon as next year.

I have a feeling that rumor will be displaced Croc. Pontiac last only sold the Sunfire as a coupe here. I see no reason why they would think thier demographic would have changed since then. This car is here for one reason: high school chicks in the Midwest.

you'll have to face the facts sooner than later that this is an objective board full of objective GM fans who are willing to dissect the real problems going on at our favorite automaker. GM may make all these world class parts, but a car is the sum of the whole parts, and in too many cases the results of those parts have come far short of what Toyota and others are building. The market has responded by forgetting GM---the problem today is too many people have placed GM on the "$h!" list. GM must get off this list through compelling design and compelling quality and consistently offering the best of what it can offer to all customers who are within reach. This is not the '90's or the '80's or the '70's when GM was an automatic choice for many. This is 2006 and GM is the automatic choice to cross off the list.