balthazar

>>"The windows can be rolled up after the car in turned off and the keys removed. "<< Windows at least used to be wired 'hot'- my '64 GP's power windows work whether the key is in/on or out/off. I believe the power antenna works the same way. -- -- -- -- -- There's something funky on my Silverado, IIRC - when you lock the doors w/ the FOB from INSIDE, then open the door with the handle- the alarm goes off. I can't figure out why they triggered the alarm to the inside handle just because the FOB is inside the truck. Has happened about 3 times in the last 3 years.

Agreed that the discussion here is mostly of degree- valid points made on both sides. Hyper- your last post cleared some points up for me. But I must mention again that the plea for the Camaro to 'find a way to get better MPG' is at least slightly humerous today; it ALREADY exceeds the MPG of the 'future trend' 4-cyl turbo WRX. The performance 4-cyl/boosted models (yes; primairly imports) get far closer to the "heritage" musclcar MPG of the mid teens than they do to 42 MPG. They are JUST AS MUCH under the hammer to increase MPG to survive as -say- the Camaro... but they have less room to 'progress' than the Camaro does since they are already at 4-cyls & smaller/slightly lighter. Very well may be that the 100s of lbs of AWD will have to be dropped at some point, or are new 'performance' cars all going to be sized like a SMART (which only gets 38 MPG).

Performance part sales is but a snapshot of the relatively tiny enthusiast % of new car consumers- it's very questionable as an indicator of consumer trends at large, even for the performance segment. What percentage of any given performance model gets modded ?? Mitsu only sold 97K TOTAL vehicles in the US last year- how many were evos? The last thing in the world the Camaro needs to do, now that's it's finally back and completely relevant again, is to be 'more like the imports', because the import loyalists are not going to look at it anymore than the American muscle car fan is going to look at the wrx/evo types, and all that will do is disenfranchise the American performance coupe pool. It's already at the head of the class in performance with the V6, yet also offers a 426HP version. WRX is 3400lbs yet a full 16" shorter than the Camaro, but it only offers 17/27 vs. the Camaro's 18/29, and stickers at $35K vs. the Camaro LT2's $26K. Overpricing the Camaro is not going to raise sales nor gain conquests, nor is offering bloated, misshapen sheetmetal & plastics. Would WRX sales be affected if it was a N/A V-6 car instead ?? I think not. This crowd is going to buy what they want, but the Camaro was never intended to be a conquest vehicle, it was always intended to serve the gigantic musclecar contingency- both old & new school. This is does awesomely well right out of the gate. Don't forget- the Camaro has been absent for 7 long years, of course performance part sales are going to reflect that to a degree. But it's back, baby, as is the Challenger... and this competition is only going to fuel Mustang modding, too. Analyzing specifics specs is never the way to 'prove/disprove' the potential success of a given vehicle, which only ALWAYS competes for the buyer's money as a package.

>>"Side by side, Camaro's design appears natural and classic while everything about the Genesis says "I'm trying too hard"."<< I would've said 'not trying hard enough'. In this still-constricting market, (not to mention the design doldrums the industry in general has been in for the las 20 years) bold design is going to be more important than ever. The hyundai is already 'dated' in that is looks like a late '90s generic. >>"But as you say, not bad for a first attempt. The Camaro is just better sorted with a higher degree of finesse. In addition to the stunning looks."<< Agreed.

Stehrenberger (tho excellent as usual) is still drawing exactly the same manner he did in the '80s. Except for the rubber-band tires & 24"s, this looks like it could've been drawn in 1985. Cute in a way, ugly in many more, useless in every way. Calls for frames & RWD are ridiculous- how much could anyone pile in a 6 SQ FT bed ????

"improves acceleration & performance" Yes, if the ratios are reshuffled. In the case of the Allison 5-spd & 6-spd; 6th gear was an added-on double overdrive. Gear 1-5 ratios are identical. No doubt ratios are reshuffled between 4-spds & 6-spds.... just saying...

>>"I'm just not able to like it. It looks better in black IMHO."<< Agreed... to the point I find it quite hideous up front. The black masks this in the pic, but it is what it is (IMO).

'52-53 "7X" race engine. Overbored 308 CI. Twin-H dual carbs, est 220 HP.

Interesting how this rag says the hyuindai is LACKING in refinement, when the other praised it. Here, it's the Camaro that's "impressively refined" (page 4). Can we please get a consensus that these rankings are the meaningless personal opinions of a few old guys & their particular 'filters' ?? And no- accepting that does NOT rule out editorial or personal biases, sorry DF.

Black steel roof car w/ red interior, low miles..... love it. Have literally dreamt about this car, but... not in the market for anything right now.

Except for the DeSoto, the others were but a sampling from a -yes indeed- Wednesday night local car show. There were about 50 vehicles there- these were a few that caught my eye. I also saw a '65 Corvette w/ side pipes rumbling around out on the roads.

'56 DeSoto Firedone 4-dr sedan, pink over charcoal. '59 Bel Air 2-dr sedan '59 Lincoln Mark IV convertible. '60 Olds Super 88 2-dr hardtop. Pair of '62 GPs. '63 Buick LeSabre convertible. Pair of '62-64 Studebaker GT Hawks. '71 GTO Judge hardtop (1 of 357) a Bricklin

>>"Really after even about 68 or 70 the big cars started to suffer IMHO."<< Agreed. Case in point: Pontiac 1967 ~ Full-size : 386,585 A-/F-Body : 379,118 1968 ~ Full-size : 403,284 A-/F-Body : 437,999 As a Pontiac guy, '67 is the last aspirational F/S Pontiac for me (I DO like the '68 GP tho).

True- GM 'de-engineered' the A-bodies from the big cars... but once their sales numbered swelled to pass the F/S (and the 1st 'fuel crisis' hit), it seems development money was shifted away from the big cars. The effort just wasn't as strong as traditionally...

Sure, PMD had a touch more of styling/fluidity to the flanks, but they still leave me flat in this era. Latest I would be willing to buy would be a '71 2-dr hardtop (steel roof only), and I think they're borderline ugly, but I like 'em. My grandfather ended his 7-car Pontiac streak with a '76 Gran Ville 4-dr hardtop, burgandy with Rallye IIs. Nice car, but this period is such a sad drop-off from only 10 years earlier...

There was a '79 Electra sedan in the GS club that was turning 11s, IIRC- looked bone stock on the outside except for tires.

Not an ounce of stylistic detail or inspiration in the entire 18 feet.

Friend/client of mine used to own a tiburon. He spent money on it too, rims, stereo, etc. He's had nothing but foreign since, currently drives a Jetta, and a most of his friends seem to drive imports, too. I asked him about the genesis but he snorted "$30K for a hyundia?? No way!" I asked him how he thought it looked, and he said 'Meh'. One car he has talked about longingly is the Challenger. Haven't discussed the Camaro yet...

>>"I wonder if some groups of people will be put OFF by the retro styling of the Camaro. "<< I strongly doubt it. The only thing retro-esque about it as it sits in front of you, is the grille opening/ frenched grille. Everything else is completely modern, it just calls to mind the '69 for those that know it well. But for the vast majority of consumers- '69 Camaros are not something seen often out on the road, and the proportional differences are not going to call the '10 to mind, IMO.

The Juggernaut from 13 Ghosts Michael Corvin from Underworld Dave 'The Animal' Batista Jason Statham Curly from the 3 Stooges (you can drop an anvil on his head and he just shakes it off!)

Well, I did something today I simply do not normally have time to fritter away doing. Was driving past 'my' Chevy dealer, which is the tiniest new car dealer I've seen. Lot averages between 12-20-some new vehicles, today it was 11. But one of them was a Victory Red '09 Camaro RS, V-6/auto. I had to pull over & check it out. Phenomonal, outrageous, dynamic, unique & amazing. The lines- it's a concept car in production. The Coke-bottle flanks, the tapered backlight, the sucked-tight overhangs... Car is as fresh as a bare-handed slap to the face, looks great from every angle. Wheels are huge. It straight-up sucks you right in. Interior (didn't get inside) is also unique & looks very sporty. Sticker was $28K. I'm not a 'Camaro person', but I was extremely impressed. BTW- this car did NOT have any brake caliper lead weights. Then I took a slight detour and swung into the hyundai megamall. This is one of the largest dealers in the east, I believe, always shouting outrageous deals in their radios spots. There was about 15 dusty genesis sedans there (and what's the dilly-o: with a 'hyundai genesis sedan' and a 'hyundai genesis coupe', why is the sedan starting $14K higher than the coupe ??? That's a huge sticker diff within 1 model name, no?).... plus 3 genesis coupes. The hyundai does look slightly smaller (even not being side-by-side), but this is mostly to the very low nose. Camaro isn't "large" by any means, but it has broader fascias & a higher hoodline. The hyundai is not bad looking - the droopy rear quarter window didn't bother me in person like it did in pics, and the nose also isn't quite as melted as it looks in straight-on pics. This could be argued to be a stand-out... FROM HYUNDAI; I can see it being appealing to a small portion of the import consumer pool, but it certainly does not stand out in a mixed crowd, despite the window sticker assurance of "dynamic styling". In fact, the rounded rear reminded me of the late '90s Merc Cougar for some reason... 2.0L stripper was $24K, 2.0L T was $27K, 3.8L T was just under $32K. Tho there were some other options involved, that's multi-thousands for just the 3.8 engine. This car is in no way going to sway those away from the Camaro. -- -- -- -- -- To get back to my earlier point : the hyundai is going the wrong way in this market for it's intended buyers, or at least it's 5 years too late. It's heavy for it's size and it's treading in the domestic 'muscle coupe' segment, and that's just not where the import loyalists have any desire to go. No way the Camaro buyer is switching camps. Guess we'll see how it pans out over time, but I'm going to be attentive to the 'insane deals' they attempt to push this car with.

You're right: base price should not be overlooked. $25K is not bad, but $32K is not what I believe most would call "affordable", not in this market. Hyundai could make deeper inroads by pricing it more like $20K / $25K- that's more where people expect hyundai to be at.

'58-59 Ford panel truck, ambling down I-78 East. '56 Bel Air 4-dr sedan, 2-tone blue '50 Cadillac 4-dr sedan, a disgusting non-stock pink.

balthazar: >>"Genesis is 96% the size of the Camaro, and 92% of it's weight."<< blackviper8891: Are you saying you had no point in stating that? The discussion, in case you didn't bother to read it, was that the hyundai is 'the one to watch' because it's 290 lbs lighter than the camaro, and it's the 'new direction'........ for those who have already demonstrated they prefer cars weighing 600-1000 lbs lighter than the hyundai. There was an attempt to drive a wedge between the Camaro & the genesis based primarily on weight difference (299 lbs) & size (8"). Like I said earlier, it's ridiculous. Apparently, the Camaro is deficient tho it's razor-close to the hyundai, and the hyundai is "affordable" at $32K. You should recognize exactly what this is: Let me add : nitpicking to the nth degree. My point; explained. You brought the Cobalt & Malibu into a thread on the Camaro/genesis, you can explain your point. -- -- -- -- -- moltar : >>"Unfortunately, Balthy is another guy that knows everything, is always right, walks on water, and has to dominate every conversation. Very much like Reg... except Balthy is the expert on all automotive history, and will tell you that. I'm sick of both of these guys, personally...thinking about adding them to my block list."<< You've got to be kidding me. You've got 5900 of my posts you can comb thru, find ONE that stated anything close to 'I'm right and you're wrong'. >>"Balthy is the expert on all automotive history, and will tell you that."<< To borrow from vipes' repetuare' : Quote me, bitch. We just had a direct conversation about non-underhood batteries; where did I tell you you were wrong? Where did I state 'no cars have trunk-mounted batteries'? Where did I challenge anything factual (or otherwise) in what you told me? God, grow up. And "dominate every conversation" ?? We joined the same month/year and you have 4000 more posts than I, most of them detailing the 'tweets' of various co-workers, friends, relatives & acquaintances, none of whom any of us asked about, have met or care about. Total anecdotal overload.... but who's keeping track ? :wink: I have zero members on my block list. Never have blocked anyone. I am tolerant of just about everything short of intentional idiocy {cough-smk-cough}. (And no; I'm not calling either of you two an idiot for your opinions.) Don't see why a discussion of 2 different viewpoints has to degenerate into intolerance and wild cast dispersions, but it's prolly inevitable at some point on an anonymous MB.

>>"The Cayenne is not a rebadge, it's platform sharing, same as GM does...you of all people should understand the difference between badge engineering and platform sharing. "<< Oh, I do; I was just relating the example to those who usually get this royally F'd up.