balthazar

>>"Do you have actual numbers to back this up or are you just making an anecdotal point? Call me a dork, but I love proof. "<< Glad to oblige : Dork. Oh... hard numbers, no, I doubt there are any reliable ones... but there were numerous stories in the news of people taking huge depreciation hits trading in SUVs on tiny econoboxes and the market demand swing along those lines. More than enought evidence right there (prius supply has gone from 2 days to 180+ since gas flip-flopped). Also: stories about people running out of gas on the road because they couldn't "afford to fill the tank"- those brainacs can be tossed in the same rubber basket. -- -- -- -- -- I haven't heard of specific negative stigmas RE driving a prius, but they sure don't have a believably positive stigma that I've heard, either. Nothing remotely cool or interesting about them, IMO.

>>"I can't tell you how many times I've heard that when I was in the U.S., just as recently as last month. Regular people can't tell the difference..."<< May say a lot about who you hang around with, both socially & professionally.... :wink:

>>"I think corporations should be held accountable for their actions."<< I think the government should be held accountable for their actions, at the very least on a pay basis, but more effectively, on a retention of job basis. Because they're all on a taxpayer-funded payroll every day.

Ohh goodie: yet ANOTHER opportunity to trot out the 30-yr old Cimarron. Nicely done, guys, clearly your day job skills nailing coffins shut is working overtime for you. Hammer! Hammer! Hammer! BTW- I must commemorate you all on doing a similarly fine job posting pictures of audi 5000s in living rooms & backyard pools- don't want to forget that either !!

>>"Why this basic lesson has been lost lately perplexes me."<< Agreed. It's high time a compression occurs to the point that more styles are built on the same platforms- the constricted market has already pointed that way, but more and more ground-up cars keeping popping out. Does mercedes really need 7 SUVs?? C- & E- are only 9" different in length- what's the point?? Build one model ( the 'D' ?? :wink: ) to replace both, get the quality up to expectations, and pour the rest into future powertrains. But the consumer has yet to let go of the 'billion choices = more gooder' mindset, so every model has either/or a unique body/platform. Wasteful & unneccesary.

There should be a lot more 2- & 4-dr versions of the same mainstream cars. However, I do think the instances of putting 4 adults into one car are greatly overstated for most people. Most instances of a car trip have 2 or less occupants, I'm willing to bet. And if there were decently-sized mainstreams cars available, the 'disadvantages' of getting into a 2-dr would be far less. IE: if there were 2 in the front seat of my B-59, the passenger would not have to exit the car to tilt the seatback forward enough to allow the 3rd to get in the back.

Something overlooked in the above math lesson, and it's huge. A great portion of people were trading in their current ride simply because gas was high, not because there was an issue with the current ride, so while the mathmatical potential for the MPG increase is considerable, you cannot overlook the purchase price, etc of a new prius, plus the depreciation afterward vs. keeping whatever current car it replaced. In other words, one may save as much as $1500 in fuel costs for the year in a high-mileage instance, but if you laid out $10-15-20000 over & above for the new car purchase to begin with.... If you had to legitimately replace a vehicle and you went for a high MPG car, that's another financial pciture, but for those who knee-jerked their way to signing and ate the depreciation/purchase cost in the process, they aren't nearly as smart as they'd like to think.

Gub'ment says you're 'obese', moltie. You can still watch Paula Dean & Keith Olberman in HD from a treadmill, you know. :wink:

MOST people overreact to the price of gas, instead of sitting down w/ a calculator for 1 minute. I would never compromise what I prefer to drive to get a few more MPG; far more potential elsewhere to save money and still satisfy one's desires / needs automotively.

I could never get into Roth's stuff, but it's still fun to look over. That '60 'A' is fintastic, tho- check out the stainless over the side glass. I knew a guy in Baltimore who drove one daily- gave me a ride in it once (383) and the beast flew.

Gorgeous '55 Chevy 150 2-dr sedan on AutoDrags.

>>"It's going to be hard for Cadillac to live up to its longtime billing as "The Standard of the World""<< I wonder if CADILLAC knows it's 'living up to' a slogan last used sometime in the early 1980s.

3 of my 4 grandparents were/are 100%, it's my mother & her mother that brought a 4-part mix to the beaker... tho still researching that branch. I, my wife & therefore my sons are all 50%. BTW- having difficulty 'reading' your graphic above; who is what ??

I would, of course. So would toyota fans & executives, likely. But it'd level the field...

>>"...the point i was emphasizing was to lament the once great and biggest carmaker in the world STILL having nothing to compete in one of the most relevant and significant segments in the world..."<< Understood, but realize that this 'most relevent segment', as defined by unique-bodied hybrid vehicles, is basically populated by ONE car, and outside of that car, those manufacturers that even offer hybrids are all tied for second. Perhaps if the U.S. Government had paid for 100% of the Volt's R&D, it'd have been out for the better part of a decade, too.

>>"I'm sure GM will be selling the Volt for a loss... "<< toyota no doubt would still be selling the prius at a loss if the government hadn't picked up the tab for all the R&D...

>>"nobody cares about hulking suvs...they aren't a mainstream market"<< Umm OK. Nevermind, it was a tangent. What say you to the point of my post- RE the insight & the general commentary RE the segment & new players ?

So if the Volt is 'too little, too late', and 'missed the PR train', isn't the next attempt insight just as pointless (or more so with the derivative prius styling & the baggage of the sales-failure 1st gen) ?? Can no 2nd-vehicle (unique body hybrid) in a segment expect to succeed, ever? audi brings out a hulking SUV like 50 years after it's segment growth trend.... nary a whisper about 'too little, too late' there. Can't get away from it with GM, tho.

I've never 'killed' a car from abuse. I have parted out a few rough examples ('64 Catalina Ventura, '65 Bonneville, '66 GP). Haven't really heavily regretted selling what I've sold, #1 missed there would be my '57 F-250 until I 'replaced' it with the '40 COE. I do miss the other '65 Bonneville I sold- nice cruiser, low miles, well-optioned. Countless examples of 'ones that got away'. First was a car I took my dad to see, I wanted it bad, '63 Studebaker GT Hawk, gold w/ black interior. $2000, but my father would have no part of it ('too old').

AIG was the #1 contributor to Chris Dodd's political dowry- no big surprise the bonuses/ deferred compensation were not only known about, not only allowed, but specifically written in by him as being 'safe' from future action. Typical for political 'ethics', that was soon reversed with threatened 90% tax rates. Funny how paying employees part of their salaries is a monsterous wrongdoing, but paying politicians is fine & dandy. Funny how there is a proposal to limit private companies executive compensation, yet self-voted pay raises for the very individuals who passed legislation that allowed this whole mess is fine & dandy. Where are politicians performance-based paychecks ?? Funny how AIG has to return $165M spread out over 75 or 100 employees, yet the ex-head of Fannie Mae, Raines is allowed to pocket $90M for JUST HIMSELF, meanwhile doctoring books and steering a fast-sinking ship to the bottom. All depends on which side of the line you stand on.

>>"I guess I just have to agree to disagree..."<< Just spent 20 minutes looking @ '70s BMWs via google. We're just on opposite sides of the issue on this one. Agreed to disagree. Just don't slobber so. :wink:

>>"I'm just not one to go through life paranoid about EVERYTHING and looking over my should over every little thing and taking every conspiracy theory as fact or highly probable."<< This is the mindset that misses the warning signs. Do you lock your doors at night, or your car in a parking lot? Is this being diligent, or subscribing to conspiracies? Perhaps there is not a group specifically targeting your house/car, yet it only takes one to rob either. Never been robbed, so think that's 'proof' it won't happen? Why wait until it does to react to the possibility? Anyone hear the tale of the ant & the grasshopper ? How about the one where a major manufacturer abandons the family car in favor of high-profit trucks and agrees to staggering pensions & healthcare... no doubt there was a 'DeSotoFan' back in 1972 who laughed it off when someone suggested things were going to change suddenly and irrevocably in that industry. Hindsight is 'duh!' but it's foresight that comes out ahead. If one reads the posts here instead of overreacting to what one thinks they're saying, one should pretty quickily see no one here have even come close to suggesting all conspiracies are true. But the opposite, dismissive, intentionally-obtuse mindset is just as bad. Haven't we all seen the power-mad politicians lining up their dominoes to fall in favor of whomever gave them big money, all short-term PAC-think instead of long-term national think? Hasn't the unilateral hypocrisy and cronyism alarmed anyone with open eyes? 'Rushrushrush' the 1100-page 'stimulus' bill thru signing when NO ONE has read it all thru?? No agendas there, eh? Yes, there ARE conspiracies/agendas ("to join in a secret agreement to do an unlawful or wrongful act or to use such means to accomplish a lawful end" (Websters))... unannounced plans to alter current ways/trends/laws/life, and it's almost always done to feed that insatiable overlord, Greed. How many & where remain a task to reveal, but due diligence, observation & investigation are well-advised defenses. In other words, it just doesn't feel at all like the right time to bird watch while whistling 'Sunshine on My Shoulder'.

>>"If you find one of your posts on one of the newer iterations of the board (sometime in '04) then it should say your exact join date under your avatar. "<< That did the trick : 06-28-02

>>"...an otherwise "economical" looking car."<< VERY much so- slab, generic sides with NO character (well- there is that stem-to-stern body line ), an 'exposed' rocker there as a nod to the limits of engineering, very little stylistic intergration & just about zilch body hardware integration, generic bumpers just slapped on... these '60s & '70s BMWs just reek of cheapness. The hardtop greenhouse does nothing to improve a wretched exterior design, IMO. While I'm no raging fan of it (too new), I do 'like' the 1st gen Seville. It's very well integrated overall- body hardware, bumper fitment, stance over the wheels/wheel gap, overall flow- nothing tacked on with an afterthought; every piece designed for the Seville specifically. Nothing cheap about it, design-wise. Whether you like the design or not, the engineering of the design was class-leading then- far above that of BMWs of then & earlier.

I joined sometime in mid '03 I believe - but I can't find the date after poking around a while...