balthazar

What's the exact logistical situation at these 'sample stations'? No time to wander around discretely scarfing free cheese cubes. There's only 1 store near me- never been in it.

YIKES !!! Grille bar / headlight opening reminds me of the Focus.

Just about all indutrial design abandoned Art Deco by the '50s. Holding on to it (and it's much more so 'stuffiness' than Art Deco IMO)... whichever it was, was partially Kaiser's undoing.

Hardly anyone felt comfortable giving hyundai whatever the azera cost- genesis should be a fraction of that.

>>"Cadillac doesn't have 400 hp DOHC V8"<< For once, you are correct. Cadillac does NOT have a 400-HP DOHC V-8. They do, however, have a 469 hp DOHC V-8 and a 443 hp DOHC V-8.

That'll never work, remember; "no one's buying trucks anymore".

Oh yea, right; I have heard people actually say "No one is buying trucks anymore." Wonder what the manufactureres are going to DO will the thousands they've already built; just crush them ? Huh.

>>"This is a bad photo.... but you can tell what it is."<< You've GOT to be kidding; and no one is going to know what it is with their own eyes in broad daylight! Generica 101.

>>"Now if only the fake Quattroporte-holes would go away."<< Oh no, you dinnit!

ocn- I'm guessing what you heard about New Hope had nothing to do with cars. I was at the show once, years ago, and was not impressed. Then, the venue was very makeshift, there weren't many vehicles and there weren't many that caught my fancy. I have not been back, but I might try it out again- it's been a long time. Compared to Hershey it was a fly spec- maybe it's gotten much bigger, because Hershey is monsterous. Crap- I just remembered I've been working 7 days a week right now. I don't even have time to mow my lawn.

enzl- >>"You're making a huge assumption in all of this: GM is making money on cars. They've haven't recently."<< AFAIK, GM does not only NOT report divisional profit/loss (and never has), but also does not report individual model profit/loss. Would love to see the data on this... do you have a link or can you chart-up the data you learned this from?

I was daily driving a '94 in '06 when I bought the '04. Had zero issues with driving a 12-yr old vehicle. Farther back, I was driving a 29-yr old car as a daily- loved it. What I would love to do is drive a circa 45-yr old as a daily today, if time & the budget allowed. The B-59 is obviously coming up on it's 50th... but not only is it not done, it's not the daily driver type. I saw a sweet '64 Catalina Safari last year for sale- complete but a project. With Leno's staff, I'd have bought it on the spot and had it refurbished, added OD and driven it happily. The only modern amenities I value are A/C and a decent (and by this I mean pathetic) sound system. The rest I can live without.

smk4565- >>"Same platform, same engines, same transmissions, same price range. If the Malibu was 20-27k and the Buick Epsilon was 27-34k I wouldn't have a problem with it. That would make sense, because they wouldn't overlap. But the G6, Aura, Malibu, Lacrosse, Impala are all around the $22-25k range when similarly optioned."<< So now price is an element in judging if 2 or more cars are "rebadges" ??? Stick to one arguement at a time, please. No full-line manufacturer has zero overlap. If the product is differentiated enough, there's no reason to purposely avoid pricing overlap; they're different vehicles- they just happen to have the same parent organization. To eliminate all GM "overlap", they'd be down to -what?- 20 vehicles? In the 80s GM had a lot of cars that shared body panels, the Celebrity, Pontiac 6000 and Buick Century wagons come to mind. All they have improved was from going from straight rebadge to mechanical twins with a few different body panels and different materials on the same basic interior shape."<< So what are you now referring to in '08 as having "a few different body panels and different materials" ??? Nothing I mentioned from GM above fits your criteria here... -- -- -- -- -- Croc- >>"I think the problem is that GM does not maximize its investments in differentiation. For example, as you correctly state, the Intrigue and Grand Prix share virtually nothing. Yet, they look almost the same on the road from the front and side profiles. I'm fairly good at identifying cars on the road, and yet even this trained eye has a very difficult time differentiating between an Intrigue and GP at night."<< How are you with the camry & es at night? Or any bmw vs. another at night (sedan-to-sedan, SUV-to-SUV)? C'mon... what kind of evaluation is that? GM's product differentiation investment is currently better implimented than at any other point in your lifetime. >>"That said, I would say the AURA and G6 sedans are rebadges, but the Malibu is not. I saw two parked next to each other in a parking lot today, and the rears are 99% identical in appearance. The taillight housings were the only differences I could really see."<< I see everything being different, tho the taillights are very similar in shape (tho clearly not interchangable). No "rebadge" here in my book... shouldn't be for anyone else. Frankly- there's as much design difference between either of the above as there is with this, IMO: >>"Regardless of the number of "on-paper" differences, the two look like clones to the average person."<< I disagree completely and feel the above shots strongly support this. BTW- it's the similarities (platforms) that are "on paper", the physical differences are right there to see with the naked eye.

Ford Flex (I turned to watch it pass- definately unique in proportion). Saturn Astra 2-dr. Jaguar XF: followed a few miles; from the rear: Fake taillight segments on the trunklid (do not light with either brakes or signals), Trunk seam was huge at the bottom (no; it was NOT ajar)- could see inner panel easily (and from the cab of a 2500HD). Exhaust tips are trapezoid, but the circular pipes leading into them are clearly visible- looks very cheap. Name on rear almost impossible to read- very lightly stamped into the chromed plastic horizontal on the trunklid. No design 'language'- most will have no idea what it is (esp with vague ID). Profile is generic / derivative. Otherwise it looked pretty nice and sat right, but as usual, the details are lacking. At least the lenses aren't held on with visible screws anymore.

G6/ Malibu/ Aura certainly are not "rebadges". Grand Prix/ Impala/ LaCrosse certainly are not "rebadges". Bonneville/ 88/ LeSabre certainly are not "rebadges". Lambdas certainly are not "rebadges". My wife had an Intrique a few years ago, and once I studied it and a GP parked next to it. Not a single major interior component was identical, not a single exterior component was identical or even similar, with the possible exception of the windshield. Side & rear glass was unique- something GM seldom did even in the '50s or '60s. From the curb, these 2 cars are as different as a GP and a Maxima. Sure- they shared platforms & powertrains (just like -say- nissan), but who would know apart from auto junkies? Try bolting a GP door or hood or bumper onto an Intrique. Make a little inventive game about it and remember- have fun! Swap out taillights & grilles and have the same interiors/ powertrains/ chassis's, then yes; you have a rebadge. Early '70s X-Bodies may fit here. As soon as you have completely different interiors and sheetmetal- they no longer fit the common sense definition of 'rebadge', which is to change a strict minority of insigificant details, resulting in clear, inarguable 'twins'. Sorry- you don't have that with the G6 / Aura / Malibu, you just don't. Trucks are on another level since their primary directive is utility, which dictates most parameters of size/shape. Yet, the Lambdas are as different from each other as they are from other competitors in the segment. It takes a certain level of willful ignorance to look past these facts and focus solely on platform as the primary determination of a rebadge or not.... because by process of elimination, that seems to be what you are consistantly doing. How did you happen to come to a definition of 'rebadge' that requires reading specification charts about 2 vehicles to know if they're similar or not? BTW- regardless of the specific level of 'rebadging' done by GM in the '70s, exactly how did that "not work" ??

mercedes has far too many models as it is, apparently still working towards their recent tagline "In a perfect world, there'd be a mercedes in every driveway". Their porfolio is the automotive equivalent of 101 Dalmations. 68- I see no beauty in the '55 SL- the overall shape is nice but as usual the details are unrefined or just lacking. 'A 56 Corvette is much lovelier.

So let me get this straight: right now GMC is available to both private retail buyers and fleet buyers, but to 'fix things', we're going to eliminate retail GMC sales.

>>"Well, at least I know you're paying attention to my posts, huh?"<< I do skip over a LOT of them once I know at a glance the jist isn't deviating from the norm. :wink: >>"The Civic is currently capacity constrained....as is the Fit and CRV, IIRC."<< If this is true, wouldn't taking funding "pouring" into rebadges and instead building a few more assembly lines make more sense?? >>"But I guess it's easier to pick on me? I'm just one of the guys on the front line trying to save this disaster from happening--what are you doing? "<< Dude- I'm not picking on you- never once addressed you personally. The ONLY issue you might feel is direct : the issue of where & how much is spent vs. what I called "loosey-goosey" statements... I, and no doubt many others, would WELCOME hard data instead of subjective adjectives. Do you have any hard data to share? It's relatively easy, IMO, to damn an entities' performance and extrapolate that to all levels of operation. I guarantee you I would be right there with you if I saw facts that supported such accusations.... but I've not seen any... and thus, I do not make assumptions to the negative. I do not deny your voice in our arena as neccesary and righteous, even tho it automatically makes me defensive (and I don't love the GM of today- it's a shell from what I fell in love with) but I still need facts before I assume the worst.

"If" ?? Well, it's quite apparent that YOU care, because every 3rd post from you harps on (well, in addition to RW and the BOD) the number of 'divisions'. Every point that can be made about GM can be made about many other companies- why does honda need rebadged (other market) hondas called 'acuras' ? Reviews on the latest accord have only been lukewarm to favorable- what if TL money was "poured" into the accord instead?? Where is money "pouring" into rebadges, exactly ?? Doesn't the very loose & dismissive definition of 'rebadge' preclude 'pouring' amd instead suggest 'trickling'? Granted, it's all relative to the amount of $ GM happens to have, but these loosey-goosey statements paint such a black, horrible picture of madness & waste, when in fact the hard data about what is spent where at GM --as far as all of us here are concerned-- is complete, wild guesswork. And we still have no definitive proof that -say- having an Acadia alone (NOTE- I in no way consider these 'rebadges'... because they are not) would equal the sales of Acadia + Outlook. In other words, any investment pulled from having 2 or 3 variants of the same program instead of 1 may well fall short of the profit off 2 or 3 variants.... but again- we just don't have hard data on this issue, no matter the level of individual conviction. But, according to the info Ven posted above, can we get a unilateral consensus/agreement that B-P-GMC is 1 'division'.... leaving GM with -at most- 6 brands in the U.S., not 8? (from a business case standpoint) And I say '6' because clearly there is a great deal of engineering overlap between Hummer & Chevy Truck / GMC- lessening the distinction there, too. Half a brand?? Someone else posted that Saturn has only 31 employees (don't know if that's verified)- does that draw enough cash to warrant killing Saturn off, when most of the product money was spent in Germany & elsewhere... or again, is the cost relative to the profit still on the good side of the balance sheet?

Silverado 2500HD 402 - 18.1

Damn, smk, when are you going to start to bother to look anything up before posting stream of nonsense comments? Here's what's simple: there ARE no "8" divisions, the 'divisional' thing is a long-dead ghost. Huge difference between a brand name & a division as it USED to be at GM decades ago- each with it's own Styling, Engineering & Administration. I wish it weren't that way, because the differences were what made each strong, but 'my time' WRT GM has past long ago and what it is, it is.

3-series, 5-series, 7-series is not like one brand, if you have to advertise for all 3. If honda put acura's money into honda, they could sell 12,000,000 accords and 12,000,000 civics per year.

HE- you've a roving eye for design- was it the actual design itself that made it "amazing" to you, or some other aspect? In pics this thing turns my stomach... but I haven't seen one in person yet.

Looking at this pile in Motor Trend... I was all set to bash it for having a 2-piece rear decklid (wasn't it bentley saying they had to hand-weld the roof on the convert... when clearly what was happening was that they did not have presses large enough to stamp it out in 1 piece).... then I see it has a fold-down tailgate like a Kaiser Vagabond: No mention of this feature in the article nor the site I got the pic from. I still suspect the reason is it was too difficult to stamp from one sheet, but whatever. This car is certain to never see anything in the trunk whatsoever, nevermind anything heavy, so the purpose here is a mystery. Here's the dash: Now... where have I seen that dis-harmonious steering wheel (color & awkward design) before? Ahh yes: http://image.automotive.com/f/features/892...ering_Wheel.jpg The 1973-75 Pontiac Grand Am. The strange double A-pillar design is bizarre to say the least- reminds me of the GM 'dustbuster' vans. I wonder if it has anything to do with rollover protection requirements should someone invert the 6000 lb coupe. From what I've read so far, this car physically, just like the Bentley, falls far short of 'impressive'. The overall design (inside or out) is certainly bland and uninspired, even with the unique touches. Anyone favor it at all?

It's not rare; it just jumped from 1 of 35 to 1 of 1051 !!