balthazar

Bet you dollar to donuts there are lots of consumers 'convinced' OHC is more 'refined' than IBC... gazing with heavy lust at the CTS-V, pushrods and all. 'Engineering' means little on the bottom line if you take a back seat to the competition where it counts and where it can readily be measured. You are only 1 person with only 1 opinion, yet -based on your one-track posts here- you continually extrapolate that onto the entire car-buying world as if everyone agrees with you.

>>"I wonder what $4000 40 years ago is equivalent to today, with inflation."<< Looks like $4K in '68 is worth $24.7K in 2008 : http://www.minneapolisfed.org/Research/data/us/calc/ '69 GTO hardtop is worth far more than $24K today, in nice shape with a stick. Another conversion that's interestig to note: the '57-58 Eldorado Brougham was $13,704. In 2008 that would be equivalent to $105K, so let's not ever hear that Cadillac never been in the uber-expensive class. Not sure how accurate the calculator is: my '40 Ford truck cost $915 new (cab/chassis) - that's only $14K today. Could it really have been that incredibly cheap?

>>"After 8 years of struggling to eat and buy gas, I think it's time for a change "<< You were not struggling (relatively speaking) to buy food & gas until year #8. 'Change' can run either way: better... or worse. Check into the proposed tax increases by the Ds: $1T. And you thought you were struggling in 2000 ??!!??

Also heard news leaked from a print shop producing obama/biden material. Hillary wasn't even vetted... too bad in that that combo might actually turn things around for BO, who's been sliding recently. Reportedly there is a considerable quantity of dems that have been holding out for HC, and have vowed to go R if that doesn't happen. BO is a nightmare waiting to happen.

You are talking about anti-asian CAR sentiment, not anti-asian PEOPLE sentiment, right?

Agreed- the opinions are flying wild over one of the worst spy shots I've seen in recent years.

If (any Asian brand) did (announce full discontinuance of all global production) I'd buy one (to flip in 40 years as a potential collectible).

Yeah- some fantas-gasmic names there, all right, all right !! The vehicle designs themselves suck & suck hard, but whoopie&#036;h&#33; for the names, making it all right, right ?? I'll never understand such bubbling enthusiasm for whatever God-awful POS that comes from anywhere else but here.

>>"LOL. That's classic. I think I've worn jeans/shorts, a $6 tourist t-shirt and sandals every time I've gone. I'll be on the lookout for some overdressed people "on the make.""<< Just to clarify- I'm a self-employeed contractor, I wear clothes until their practically illegal or simply fall apart. Yesterday I had decent shorts but a $1 t-shirt (military surplus), and both work boots are cracked completely thru on the soles- they are my 'dry day' pair. I don't go 'on the street' this way and I guarantee you compared to what I wear, you get 'gussied up'. :wink:

Dude, YOU were the one who trotted out an unsubstatiated "rental-queen" charge against the LaCrosse based solely on an always-misleading percentage figure, and once it was pointed out that there are 4 times the amount of rental camrys out there, you suddenly want to "get real" and shift ground to talk about completely unrelated retail sales. You know, you could've just ended it gracefully by admitting your initial charge wasn't exactly accurate instead of doin' the twist to heap more hate on Buick / more love on toyota.

The only merit in discussing whether Car X should or should not be on The List is if you are willing to substitute this guy/guys opinion over your own. Lists based totally on subjective opinion are pointless ego-strokes. That said, the inclusion of the fiat & the citroen on anyone's list involving the idea of beauty is a friggin laugh-riot.

'60 Impala, '41?-47 Chevy truck Just perhaps more than you wanted to know: http://groups.msn.com/TheCreepersTruck/thetruck1.msnw

I'm scouting out decent bridge abutments, after building my own coffin and once I get near having to rely on others for everyday tasks, it's gas me up and let's see the far side of 100 MPH. How's that for a last item on a bucket list?

No prob- was out of town. It was my manner of interpretation - when talking about engine commonality, a transmission doesn't enter into the discussion IMO. Still > "good bit" = transmission bolt patterns (BOP only), alternators and.... carbs. Would radiators be included? Doesn't fit the assessment, IMO. The only reason I dwell on this is, to the unwashed, the implication suggests that mass sharing is all GM has EVER done... and this gets extrapolated from the '70s and later, back to 1908, and widens to include 'platforms' (anachronistic term RE this era), engines, etc, etc. I hate to see that happen. I've read on vintage forums, people asking which Impala frame would work best under their 88 (as a bolt-in); it's assumed everything... ALWAYS interchanged when in fact for the bulk of 80 years, most stuff didn't. Makes me bristle.

>>"the vision of some nasty dirty old rust barge lends itself to the vision of terrifying some eco-weenie in a Smart."<< Wanna borrow this? It's 7.5 feet tall. Should do the job.

>>"I cannot imagine what cars will be like in another 50 years!"<< I can guarantee you one thing- there won't be anything CLOSE to the degree of change between 1957 and 2008. A few more airbags, laser turn signals, automatically-polarizing glass and the 20th generation of the continual morphing of music hardware is about all I would expect, and none of that ilk is particularly stirring.

>>"sadly, pontiac has nothing to offer than couldn't easily be moved to another brand. pathetic really when you think of it."<< Sadly, pontiac has much more to offer than merely things that could easily be moved to another brand. Pathetic, really, when you think of it.

No; it's exactly the story for today and this thread. Guy was asking for reunion stories; get to it.

LaCrosse - 4,546 units Camry - 17,013 units camry = rental queen. Done.

No coffee here, ever. No time to sit (well: to gussy up, drive somewhere & sit) and ponder the inadequecies of my life, either.

Right, Camino- 'cept the '54 Cadillac El Camino wasn't a pick-up (in case others didn't know that). Original '53 LeMans had dual headlights and a much more domed hood- this #4 LeMans was restyled with quads and a pancaked hood & 'Eldo' fins by GM Styling in '59. '53 Parisienne was a bit of a throwback in that it was a Town Car (uncovered driver's compartment); GM also built a '56 Eldorado Brougham Town Car. Agreed 68; having to put the top up on a convert is a 'dealbreaker' for me. Which is why you like never see the '51 LeSabre or the Y-Job with the tops up.

>>"GM V8s in the '80s tended to be pretty low on power, IIRC."<< Very nice of you to... again.. make an effort to point out just GM's past deficiencies as if they were alone in this era... but bear in mind the '80 were universally sucky- this is when a ferrari struggled to pull a 15-sec 1/4 mile.

>>"Buick had a 455 {Pontiac had a 455} and Olds had a 455. Buick, Olds, Chevy, and Pontiac all had 350s. Did all of these engines have dramatically different personalities? For example, why did the Chevy 350 survive while the Rocket, almost nearly as well renowned, was canceled in 1990 and Pontiac's and Buick's 350s canceled much earlier. I can understand the reasoning behind wanting just one common V8 engine design, but what I'm asking is why one of them won out over the other. "<< To start off, yes: the BOP 455s were unique and definately did have different personalities. I don't know that'd I'd call them 'dramatically' so, but there were distinctions aplenty down to exhaust sound. Traditionally, the division's proprietory engines were built in separate plants, so undoubtedly production capacity played a major role --in addition to the pros/cons of each engine-- in determing which engine would continue to be built in the face of corporate consolidation. Chevy got the nod for the SB V-8, Buick got the V-6 (back) and Pontiac got the 4-cyl. BTW: this for me is the 'beginning of the Great Downturn' over anything else. >>"I'd want a Buick 455 over a Rocket 455 because of the torque, but then I'd have to watch out for intake manifold problems."<< Not a real problem there. >>"They were all different, but BOP (Buick, Olds,Pontiac) had alot of commonality."<< No; there was very little interchange going on... in the case of the big displacement motors... umm, none that comes readily to mind beyond clear-cut bolt-ons like carbs. But intakes, heads, pistons, rod, cranks, pans, timing covers, exhaust-- all proprietory. >>"But here's an example where Chevy had the advantage. Chevy's big blocks (the mark IV engines) tended to breathe better than the BOP 455s. One other tidbit: the BOP 455s were not technically big blocks at all, their external dimensions were the same as the smaller displacement engines whereas the Chevy big and small block engines had little to no commonality."<< Only Pontiac's blocks were the same size externally; Buick & Olds had definate small- and big-blocks. And if it's not apparent; a division must have one in order to have the other... therefore relegating Pontiac to having... neither (Pontiac technoids often refer to them as 'mid-blocks'). And Chevy engines tended to 'breathe better' if you only looked at intake flow #s, but Buick's flow ratios were much better than Chevy BBs and equal to the SBs. Pontiac V-8 ratios were also superior to Chevy's BBs... where the track differences came into play were factory & aftermarket parts support. Strong Pontiac & Buick V-8 aftermarkets have only come online in the last 10 years. >>"While all of the divisions used TH350 and TH400 automatic transmissions, the mounting bolt patterns were different. So, you could not use a TH400 from a GTO in your SS 396 Chevelle when you blew the trans at the track. "<< Yeah- Chevys & Cadillacs had their own bolt patterns, but BOPs did interchange.

>>"Were those Firebirds Pontiacs or generic GMs?"<< Firebirds pictured at the link were not Pontiacs... as is the case for the '51 LeSabre- likewise not a Buick. >>"Why were a couple of the cars, including the '55 Chevrolet Biscayne, seemingly unrestored? (Are they new additions to the Motorama collection, or did money run out there, too?)"<< Biscayne & LaSalle II are privately owned (as are a number of others pictured, FuturLiner, Wildcat I)- Biscayne work only recently began- car was found in late '80s in... IIRC... 8 major pieces. I had expected it would be done by now, but these things (complete restorations) take mucho time & money. Looks fantastic compared to 1989. >>"A Cadillac, rather than Pontiac, LeMans? (So there might have been a precedent for calling the Pontiac G8 ST an "El Camino"?)"<< I would not call that a precedent, no. Cadillac LeMans was not production (4 built), Chevy El Camino had decades as a production Chevy.

>>"it seems GM's midsizers have always been focused with competing with other GM brands, rather than non-GM competition.. "<< Disagree- GM has always been focused on competing with other U.S. brands, rather than international brands as they should, but there's been very little focused inter-corporate competition.