Jump to content
Create New...
  • William Maley
    William Maley

    GM Is Ready To Lose Close To $9,000 On Every Bolt Sold

      GM is expected to lose how much on every Bolt?!

    Every Chevrolet Bolt that will be rolling off the assembly line will lose General Motors close to $9,000 once they are sold. This seems like madness, but according to a report from Bloomberg, there is some method to it. 

    Thanks to new regulations done by California Air Resources Board, automakers have to sell a certain amount of zero-emission vehicles if they want to sell other vehicles - primarily crossovers, SUVs, and trucks - in the state. These new regulations say by 2025, zero-emission vehicles need to make up 15.4 percent of the market. Since then, nine other states including New York have adopted these regulations. All told, these ten states make up 30 percent of the total U.S. auto market.

    Take for example Fiat Chrysler Automobiles. CEO Sergio Marchionne revealed a couple years back they take a hit of $14,000 on every Fiat 500e sold. But if they wanted to sell Ram pickups and Jeep SUVs in California, they need to take the hit.

    How does Bloomberg get the $9,000 figure? That's due to a source at General Motors who revealed the estimate is based on the Bolt's $37,500 base price. A GM spokesman declined to comment.

    If General Motors is able to sell enough Bolts, they'll be able to gather enough credits to not only sell other vehicles which will make up for the Bolt's loss, but also be able to sell extra credits to other automakers. Tesla has taken advantage of this to great effect. In the third quarter, Tesla made $139 million from selling credits.  

    Source: Bloomberg

     

     

     

    User Feedback

    Recommended Comments



    Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)

    Posted

    200 mile range is pretty easy, just keep stuffing a bigger battery in it. The engineering work to be done, is to find a way to give a balance of range, value to the consumer and profit to the automaker.  Then I will be impressed. I would rather see 150 mile range, cheaper price (less than $30K) and faster charging.  That is far more useful than a bit more range.  

     

    2 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

    Speaking of PHEVs. 

    2016 YTD sales

    Chevrolet Volt-21k

    Ford C Max (hybrid and PHEV)-17k

    Continue speaking, because you forgot their other PHEV, which has a HUGE sales gain recently.

    In total electrification sales, Ford/Lincoln has been crushing all of GM for years.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    9 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

    200 mile range is pretty easy, just keep stuffing a bigger battery in it. The engineering work to be done, is to find a way to give a balance of range, value to the consumer and profit to the automaker.  Then I will be impressed. I would rather see 150 mile range, cheaper price (less than $30K) and faster charging.  That is far more useful than a bit more range.  

     

    Continue speaking, because you forgot their other PHEV, which has a HUGE sales gain recently.

    In total electrification sales, Ford/Lincoln has been crushing all of GM for years.

    Past is past. Welcome to the present. Fact is the Volt outsells any single Ford PHEV right now. Having a bunch of half ass EV efforts means precisely dick. 

     

    Oh continue speaking BS like you've been doing the last few days. It's certainly gotten you this far. 

    Edited by surreal1272
    • Agree 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Yes, Ford did jump in early with using the Toyota system and then moving into their own when ready. They have done great with PHEV and I am happy that Ford is doing well. As long as we have some US companies in the Auto industry, I am happy.

    Level 3 fast charge is going to really change over the next few years and I think we will see a much faster move to 100kWh battery packs as the density of Lithium Ion improves.

    I think the Euro fast charge system will end up being a backbone for the rest of the world  to build. I can see these high end kWh chargers replacing one line of Pumps at gas stations. Then EV's pull in, got grab a coffee, snakes, etc. 5-15 min later depending on how much charge they want, they are out of there. I see the day when charging will be no different than pumping.

    Exciting future for everyone.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)

    Posted

    So if you want to save fuel costs (42mpg, 97mpge), reduce emissions in a proven engine (PZEV), in a roomy CUV like package using a proven and smooth hybrid system rolling on a proven chassis, Absolutely Zero range anxiety and great value through low price at $27,125 MSRP.....then the new C-Max PHEV needs to be considered.

     

    cmx17_highlight_lg_bestinclass.jpg

     

    5 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Yes, Ford did jump in early with using the Toyota system and then moving into their own when ready. They have done great with PHEV and I am happy that Ford is doing well. As long as we have some US companies in the Auto industry, I am happy.

    Level 3 fast charge is going to really change over the next few years and I think we will see a much faster move to 100kWh battery packs as the density of Lithium Ion improves.

    I think the Euro fast charge system will end up being a backbone for the rest of the world  to build. I can see these high end kWh chargers replacing one line of Pumps at gas stations. Then EV's pull in, got grab a coffee, snakes, etc. 5-15 min later depending on how much charge they want, they are out of there. I see the day when charging will be no different than pumping.

    Exciting future for everyone.

    Ford did not use the Toyota hybrid system.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    11 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

    Ford did not use the Toyota hybrid system.

    I am going based on what was in the news back in 2004 when Toyota and Ford held press conferences and said they would use the Toyota Hybrid system as they worked together on building the next generation system that they would both use.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/10/business/ford-to-use-toyota-s-hybrid-technology.html?_r=0

    http://www.autonews.com/article/20040309/REG/403090702/ford-to-use-toyota-hybrid-system-technology

    http://www.autotrader.com/car-news/ford-and-toyota-partner-on-hybrid-technology-120396

    http://corporatenews.pressroom.toyota.com/releases/ford+toyota+hybrid+trucks+suvs+telematics.htm

    http://corporatenews.pressroom.toyota.com/releases/remarks+ford+toyota+uchiyamada.htm

     

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)

    Posted (edited)

    18 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    They did not use toyota's  hybrid system.

    I don' care how many links you provide.

    Ford developed their own system, and when they progressed it enough it was noted that it had similarities that encroached on Toyota patents. Japan was notorious for locking down every aspect of their development, something Ford is finally doing as well.

    So Ford had to then decide, do we revise the design or pay out patent licensing fees.  Pretty typical in the business on new technology.  They obviously paid it, and ignorant journalists write what they want, and ignorant people believe what they want. And it was also a package deal, where we provided Toyota other patent licences, as Ford is the leader in catalyst development.

     

    Edited by Wings4Life
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    31 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

    They did not use toyota's  hybrid system.

    I don' care how many links you provide.

    Ford developed their own system, and when they progressed it enough it was noted that it had similarities that encroached on Toyota patents. Japan was notorious for locking down every aspect of their development, something Ford is finally doing as well.

    So Ford had to then decide, do we revise the design or pay out patent licensing fees.  Pretty typical in the business on new technology.  They obviously paid it, and ignorant journalists write what they want, and ignorant people believe what they want. And it was also a package deal, where we provided Toyota other patent licences, as Ford is the leader in catalyst development.

    That is fine, interesting take, but then why would Toyota have all these announcements in their media section that covers this too?

    If Ford did not use their system at the start, I would think they would protest it big time and in court. As you stated their system was similar to Toyota where they then signed agreements. This will always bring up the conspiracy theorist in people.

    No matter what, we can agree that it is great to have some auto's even if they are compliance auto's now as they move forward with a bigger deeper selection of auto's.

    Ford could and should push beyond GM as I know many would love a Truck EV and Full size SUV EV.

    • Agree 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)

    Posted

    2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

    Past is past. Welcome to the present. Fact is the Volt outsells any single Ford PHEV right now. Having a bunch of half ass EV efforts means precisely dick. 

     

    Oh continue speaking BS like you've been doing the last few days. It's certainly gotten you this far. 

    What a dork

    Picks C-Max to compare when Fusion is a sedan PHEV like Volt and sells far more.

     

    Fail

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)

    Posted

    Oh and btw, one should combine sales totals with hybrid and PHEV, because they are the same exact vehicle, except for battery capacity and plug.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    55 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

    Oh and btw, one should combine sales totals with hybrid and PHEV, because they are the same exact vehicle, except for battery capacity and plug.

    They were. Those numbers were pulled from Fords own numbers. Thanks for your concern though. 

    1 hour ago, Wings4Life said:

    What a dork

    Picks C-Max to compare when Fusion is a sedan PHEV like Volt and sells far more.

     

    Fail

    Really? The Fusion Energi has sold just over 14,000 for year, putting it squarely behind the Volt. 

    In fact you'd have to combine sales of the Fusion and the C-Max Energi to get a few hundreds above the one Volt for the year  

    You're welcome in advance. 

    http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

     

     

    Edited by surreal1272
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Chevy Bolt EV battery could lose 40% of its capacity over 8 years

    While a 10-percent range decrease won't be much to worry about, forty percent of 238 miles is 95.2, which would leave just 143 miles in a 2017 Bolt in 2025. Any eight-year-old car will have problems compared to a new model, but there are two big questions here. First, since the Bolt EV is the one that GM wants to promote to a much wider audience than the typical EV buyer – we have to wonder if this sort of range decrease will be acceptable to the masses. Second, is the phrasing "as much as 40%" something that the engineers predict will happen or is that just the lawyers covering the company's collective behind?

    * someone may have posted this, but I'm not about to go through and search to verify 

     

     

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)

    Posted

    28 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

    They were. Those numbers were pulled from Fords own numbers. Thanks for your concern though. 

    Really? The Fusion Energi has sold just over 14,000 for year, putting it squarely behind the Volt. 

    In fact you'd have to combine sales of the Fusion and the C-Max Energi to get a few hundreds above the one Volt for the year  

    Youre welcome in advance. 

    http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

    Fusion hybrid and PHEV and C-Max hybrid and PHEV far exceed volt sales.

    WTF are you even talking about.

    27 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

    Chevy Bolt EV battery could lose 40% of its capacity over 8 years

    While a 10-percent range decrease won't be much to worry about, forty percent of 238 miles is 95.2, which would leave just 143 miles in a 2017 Bolt in 2025. Any eight-year-old car will have problems compared to a new model, but there are two big questions here. First, since the Bolt EV is the one that GM wants to promote to a much wider audience than the typical EV buyer – we have to wonder if this sort of range decrease will be acceptable to the masses. Second, is the phrasing "as much as 40%" something that the engineers predict will happen or is that just the lawyers covering the company's collective behind?

    * someone may have posted this, but I'm not about to go through and search to verify 

     

     

    This got totally debunked by surreal, who talked to a Tesla owner and said otherwise.

    Come on coz, catch up would ya

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    21 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

    Fusion hybrid and PHEV and C-Max hybrid and PHEV far exceed volt sales.

    WTF are you even talking about.

    This got totally debunked by surreal, who talked to a Tesla owner and said otherwise.

    Come on coz, catch up would ya

    Don't change the rules to suit your weak argument. I am comparing a PHEV Chevy to two Ford PHEV, of which the Fusion is not a part of (hence the factual link provided for your education). Ask yourself this. Why in the world would anyone compare sales of a PHEV with a hybrid? Hell, if you want to go that route, then Prius spanks all of them.

     

    Try and keep up yourself before calling me a dork. 

     

    And the link your buddy provided is about the Bolt, not the Teslas I was talking about. Again, try and keep up here before claiming a superiority that doesn't exist. 

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    18 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

    This link dates back to may, but not much has changed in terms of offerings in hybrids.

    Clearly, Ford leads GM, unlike what surreal is trying to pedal here.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/557288/sales-of-hybrid-vehicles-in-the-us-by-manufacturer/

    Never, not once have I said that GM outsells Ford on hybrids. Not once. That's a scenario you created to paint Ford as superior. Take your condescending BS and stick it back in the deck before you hurt yourself. 

     

    Good thing I'm not a Toyota employee or you would not have jack $h! to say about hybrid sales. 

     

    Just go pedal yourself. 

    • Disagree 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)

    Posted

    22 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

    Don't change the rules to suit your weak argument. I am comparing a PHEV Chevy to two Ford PHEV, of which the Fusion is not a part of (hence the factual link provided for your education). Ask yourself this. Why in the world would anyone compare sales of a PHEV with a hybrid? Hell, if you want to go that route, then Prius spanks all of them.

     

    Try and keep up yourself before calling me a dork. 

     

    And the link your buddy provided is about the Bolt, not the Teslas I was talking about. Again, try and keep up here before claiming a superiority that doesn't exist. 

    Volt is a sedan, and this should be compared to Fusion hybrid/PHEV.

    You are the one that decided to compare Volt to whatever you wanted, and you made your own rule.  Now you state nobody can change it???? LMAO  Effff that.

    I simply stated that total hybrid/PHEV sales is what should be compared, .  Customers who consider going that route, compare all and consider all.  And the only freaking difference is battery capacity.  

    Now man the efff up dork, and admit GM trails Ford by a significant margin.

    Or, take your little volt comparison which means nothing, and be happy.

    24 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

    Never, not once have I said that GM outsells Ford on hybrids. Not once. That's a scenario you created to paint Ford as superior. Take your condescending BS and stick it back in the deck before you hurt yourself. 

     

    Good thing I'm not a Toyota employee or you would not have jack $h! to say about hybrid sales. 

     

    Just go pedal yourself. 

    Never said you did say GM outsells Ford on hybrids.

     

    Nice try.

     

    And that is always GM fans response when Ford is mentioned as beating them in electrification, the Toyota card.

     

    LMAO

     

     

    Oh boy, just realized, surreal will call in my dork remark to mods.

    Oh no

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    20 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

    Volt is a sedan, and this should be compared to Fusion hybrid/PHEV.

    You are the one that decided to compare Volt to whatever you wanted, and you made your own rule.  Now you state nobody can change it???? LMAO  Effff that.

    I simply stated that total hybrid/PHEV sales is what should be compared, .  Customers who consider going that route, compare all and consider all.  And the only freaking difference is battery capacity.  

    Now man the efff up dork, and admit GM trails Ford by a significant margin.

    Or, take your little volt comparison which means nothing, and be happy.

    Never said you did say GM outsells Ford on hybrids.

     

    Nice try.

     

    And that is always GM fans response when Ford is mentioned as beating them in electrification, the Toyota card.

     

    LMAO

     

     

    Oh boy, just realized, surreal will call in my dork remark to mods.

    Oh no

    You realized wrong as always (I'm still waiting on proof of this long held belief of yours that I'm a GM fan being that I've never owned even one).  I have said nothing because you mean nothing. I'll leave you be so that you can put that chain back on since it flew off from all that backpedaling you just did. 

    Now again, back to the Bolt (and away from the usual meaningless insults from the peanut gallery)...

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    gm continues its creative trend of ruining its own products' image before release. yes it's to cover their ass but 40% looks so bad lol. 

    per battery degradation, Tesla's have averaged a 2.3 mile loss for every 10,000 miles. 

    http://www.teslacentral.com/worried-about-tesla-battery-degradation-its-23-miles-every-100000-driven

    http://survey.pluginamerica.org/model-s/charts.php

    • Agree 2
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Just now, bigpoolog said:

    gm continues its creative trend of ruining its own products' image before release. yes it's to cover their ass but 40% looks so bad lol. 

    per battery degradation, Tesla's have averaged a 2.3 mile loss for every 10,000 miles. 

    http://www.teslacentral.com/worried-about-tesla-battery-degradation-its-23-miles-every-100000-driven

    http://survey.pluginamerica.org/model-s/charts.php

    So right at a 10% drop at 100k miles and nowhere near 40%. Sounds about right. 

    • Agree 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    The 40% loss is just how every manufacturer will say if your engine burns up to 1qt of oil every thousand miles it is still "normal". Just don't buy an Audi EV. lol

    Basically, it shouldn't happen and is just there to cover their ass. 

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    13 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    The 40% loss is just how every manufacturer will say if your engine burns up to 1qt of oil every thousand miles it is still "normal". Just don't buy an Audi EV. lol

    Basically, it shouldn't happen and is just there to cover their ass. 

    Exactly but some people have to make a big deal over nothing in order to push their various agendas. 

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    42 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

    Exactly but some people have to make a big deal over nothing in order to push their various agendas. 

    Agreed! From an intellectually honest standpoint, the EV has a bright future.

    Edited by A Horse With No Name
    • Agree 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    7 hours ago, dfelt said:

    Since you are willing to cite credible sources you win this argument IMHO.

    • Agree 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    10 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

    I talked to Tesla owners too, and they said mileage went up.

    I swear.

    Oh, and I saw several driving by, so I know too

    I still don't know what your beef is.... even the Ford Hybrid batteries are vastly out performing their expected lives.  Only the Civic Hybrid, LEAF, and very first generation Pruis have reputations for poor battery degradation.  The Toyotas, the Fords, the Volt, the Teslas, even the old Altima Hybrid only sold in Texas and CA seems to hold on to its range.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    37 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    I still don't know what your beef is.... even the Ford Hybrid batteries are vastly out performing their expected lives.  Only the Civic Hybrid, LEAF, and very first generation Pruis have reputations for poor battery degradation.  The Toyotas, the Fords, the Volt, the Teslas, even the old Altima Hybrid only sold in Texas and CA seems to hold on to its range.

    But he has science and and paper stats on his side and real world experience doesn't matter unless we are saying that the Eco-Boost doesn't deliver on real world MPGs. 

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    even the old Altima Hybrid only sold in Texas and CA seems to hold on to its range.

    I dont mean anything by this...nor does it have anything to do with the subject at hand...and you may or maynot know...but Id like to point out anyway as an informative footnote that the Altima Hybrid was also sold in Quebec. I dont know if it was sold elsewhere in Canada, but Im 100% sure it was sold in Quebec.

    Edited by oldshurst442
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

    But he has science and and paper stats on his side and real world experience doesn't matter unless we are saying that the Eco-Boost doesn't deliver on real world MPGs. 

    I'll be testing out a Gen 2 3.5L EcoBoost 10spd combo F-150 early in the New Year!

    With all positives I've read, I'm curious to try one out. 

     

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    8 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

    But he has science and and paper stats on his side and real world experience doesn't matter unless we are saying that the Eco-Boost doesn't deliver on real world MPGs. 

    Real world experience matters. My experience with turbo DI engines as a replacement for larger displacement engines with more cylinders hasn't lived up to the hype. 

    When I go with a truck, it's going to have 8 cylinders, even if it's a Ford.

    6 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    I dont mean anything by this...nor does it have anything to do with the subject at hand...and you may or maynot know...but Id like to point out anyway as an informative footnote that the Altima Hybrid was also sold in Quebec. I dont know if it was sold elsewhere in Canada, but Im 100% sure it was sold in Quebec.

    Could be. I only know of the US markets it was sold in.

    • Agree 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    7 hours ago, FordCosworth said:

    I'll be testing out a Gen 2 3.5L EcoBoost 10spd combo F-150 early in the New Year!

    With all positives I've read, I'm curious to try one out. 

     

    Let us know what you think, I for one would value your feedback.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)

    Posted

    11 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

    Exactly but some people have to make a big deal over nothing in order to push their various agendas. 

    My agenda?  I am here discussing that facts as I know them and I am 100% consistent on them. Exactly what kind of agenda would I have....try to discourage sales of them?  

     From my perspective, you are the one making a big deal and you are the one going in every direction trying to prove a point.

     

     

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Real world experience matters. My experience with turbo DI engines as a replacement for larger displacement engines with more cylinders hasn't lived up to the hype. 

    When I go with a truck, it's going to have 8 cylinders, even if it's a Ford.

    Could be. I only know of the US markets it was sold in.

    Ecoboost F150 is very good and worth a look.

    Would own an Ecoboost F150 before I would own a Malibu with its tiny turbo...

    ...but then you know me...I would own A John Cooper Works Mini S before I owned ether an F150 or Malibu!

    9 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

    But he has science and and paper stats on his side and real world experience doesn't matter unless we are saying that the Eco-Boost doesn't deliver on real world MPGs. 

    Ecoboost does deliver in spades...

    10 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    I still don't know what your beef is.... even the Ford Hybrid batteries are vastly out performing their expected lives.  Only the Civic Hybrid, LEAF, and very first generation Pruis have reputations for poor battery degradation.  The Toyotas, the Fords, the Volt, the Teslas, even the old Altima Hybrid only sold in Texas and CA seems to hold on to its range.

    Quoted for truth!

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    1 minute ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Ecoboost F150 is very good and worth a look.

    I have nothing against the Ecoboosts.... I just don't feel they live up to the hype surrounding them. If business goes the way I want, then I may be in a Denali 1500 6.2 liter in the summer just because I love the way those trucks look, however, a King Ranch with the 5.0 hasn't been crossed off the list either. I'd really rather have a V8. 

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Hybrid and electric batteries deliver...Just like the Blue Jackets delivered last night and knocked down the Redwings 4 to 1...

    2 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    I have nothing against the Ecoboosts.... I just don't feel they live up to the hype surrounding them. If business goes the way I want, then I may be in a Denali 1500 6.2 liter in the summer just because I love the way those trucks look, however, a King Ranch with the 5.0 hasn't been crossed off the list either. I'd really rather have a V8. 

    The 6.2 is really nice.  One of the SCCA guys I know trailers all over the country with one and just adores it. Hard to go wrong with the vehicles you are talking about.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    13 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    I have nothing against the Ecoboosts.... I just don't feel they live up to the hype surrounding them. If business goes the way I want, then I may be in a Denali 1500 6.2 liter in the summer just because I love the way those trucks look, however, a King Ranch with the 5.0 hasn't been crossed off the list either.  I'd really rather have a V8. 

    Ecoboosted V6 F-150?

    Ecoboosted V6 Ford GT?

     

    WOW! (shakes head in disbelief)

    I could have had a V8!!!

     

    For comedic relief this post is.

    Shyte storm to cause it is not!

    Edited by oldshurst442
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    yeah, that was the reference I was making.   Over the past 3 - 4 years, I've given smaller displacement boosted engines a chance to prove themselves... from all brands. At first, I was sold... convinced that this was going to be a 1 for 1 replacement. But over time, my opinion has changed.  With the exception of some of the really small 4-cylinders which really can't be replaced with a V6, I've found that in nearly all cases, having the bigger displacement engine is better.  A 2.0T 4-cylinder just doesn't make up for a 3.6ish V6 in the same type of vehicle. I've seen no fuel economy benefits to downsizing the engines, and it costs me available power. 

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)

    Posted

    10 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Since you are willing to cite credible sources you win this argument IMHO.

     

    defelt stated several times that "Ford used Toyota's hybrid system"

    That is not a correct statement and books are written on this matter and even the links pasted (which takes seconds to do BTW) state as much and that is what I am arguing.

    His simple words repeated quite a bit in the industry are 100% wrong, because it gives Zero credit to Ford and 100% to Toyota.  Ford completely designed their own system, that is a fact that is also out there. Toyota had previously locked down an unavoidable controls related path with a patent. Very common move in any industry. Japan is notorious for it, and it stiffles every new path we go in. Ford's hybrid controls mirrored so close as to warrant patent violation.  They decided to pay the patent license fee, in addition to sharing other technologies.  Ford has to be careful what they divulge to the media, per the agreement, but I don't.  I am here telling it as I heard it and even experienced it.  People probably believe that Ford simply purchased something and paired it with one of their engines, and voila - hybrid.  That is far from the truth. Also too, Ford received ZERO technical help from Toyota.  

    Here is first link that came up when I did a search, it was wording from a published book. Take 2 mins to read the previewed words, they mirror my words exactly.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=qsQTCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA1026&lpg=PA1026&dq=truth+behind+Ford+and+toyota+hybrid+system&source=bl&ots=P6kPs7-5OO&sig=R-bBwO_prdr8k4chAinYX4b_B1w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwisp7G32OnQAhVW0WMKHdyUBuEQ6AEIPTAG#v=onepage&q=truth behind Ford and toyota hybrid system&f=false

    26 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    I have nothing against the Ecoboosts.... I just don't feel they live up to the hype surrounding them. If business goes the way I want, then I may be in a Denali 1500 6.2 liter in the summer just because I love the way those trucks look, however, a King Ranch with the 5.0 hasn't been crossed off the list either. I'd really rather have a V8. 

    Then wait for the upgraded 5.0L.  It adds DI and a significant bump in both hp and torque. 460-470hp and around 430ftlbs combined with the 10 speed, should be very welcome.  The new 470ftlb EcoBoost is not just about peak torque, but instant and flat torque.  The new boost control system is even quicker to respond and the lag is barely there now.  And fuel economy is just better, under most driving conditions.  Like anything, when you play, you pay.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    24 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Hybrid and electric batteries deliver...Just like the Blue Jackets delivered last night and knocked down the Redwings 4 to 1...

    The 6.2 is really nice.  One of the SCCA guys I know trailers all over the country with one and just adores it. Hard to go wrong with the vehicles you are talking about.

    The truck doesn't have to haul much except occasional construction material from Home Depot, tow the Toronado on an open car trailer.... or haul my other "Business is good" gift to myself if it happens. 

    IMG_20161018_161128.jpg

     

    5 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

     

    defelt stated several times that "Ford used Toyota's hybrid system"

    That is not a correct statement and books are written on this matter and even the links pasted (which takes seconds to do BTW) state as much and that is what I am arguing.

    His simple words repeated quite a bit in the industry are 100% wrong, because it gives Zero credit to Ford and 100% to Toyota.  Ford completely designed their own system, that is a fact that is also out there. Toyota had previously locked down an unavoidable controls related path with a patent. Very common move in any industry. Japan is notorious for it, and it stiffles every new path we go in. Ford's hybrid controls mirrored so close as to warrant patent violation.  They decided to pay the patent license fee, in addition to sharing other technologies.  Ford has to be careful what they divulge to the media, per the agreement, but I don't.  I am here telling it as I heard it and even experienced it.  People probably believe that Ford simply purchased something and paired it with one of their engines, and voila - hybrid.  That is far from the truth. Also too, Ford received ZERO technical help from Toyota.  

    Here is first link that came up when I did a search, it was wording from a published book. Take 2 mins to read the previewed words, they mirror my words exactly.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=qsQTCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA1026&lpg=PA1026&dq=truth+behind+Ford+and+toyota+hybrid+system&source=bl&ots=P6kPs7-5OO&sig=R-bBwO_prdr8k4chAinYX4b_B1w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwisp7G32OnQAhVW0WMKHdyUBuEQ6AEIPTAG#v=onepage&q=truth behind Ford and toyota hybrid system&f=false

    Wings is correct with this one.  Ford did their hybrid system on their own, however, in order to avoid a nasty patent litigation fight, they paid Toyota a minimal royalty just to keep things civil between the two companies. 

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)

    Posted

    BTW, the new 5.0L should see a slight improvement in FE, even with the increased power.

    It will by itself almost match the ability of the 6.2L GM V8.  It will certainly best it in FE

    drew, completely love that bike.  You have to buy it.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    8 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

     

    defelt stated several times that "Ford used Toyota's hybrid system"

    That is not a correct statement and books are written on this matter and even the links pasted (which takes seconds to do BTW) state as much and that is what I am arguing.

    His simple words repeated quite a bit in the industry are 100% wrong, because it gives Zero credit to Ford and 100% to Toyota.  Ford completely designed their own system, that is a fact that is also out there. Toyota had previously locked down an unavoidable controls related path with a patent. Very common move in any industry. Japan is notorious for it, and it stiffles every new path we go in. Ford's hybrid controls mirrored so close as to warrant patent violation.  They decided to pay the patent license fee, in addition to sharing other technologies.  Ford has to be careful what they divulge to the media, per the agreement, but I don't.  I am here telling it as I heard it and even experienced it.  People probably believe that Ford simply purchased something and paired it with one of their engines, and voila - hybrid.  That is far from the truth. Also too, Ford received ZERO technical help from Toyota.  

    Here is first link that came up when I did a search, it was wording from a published book. Take 2 mins to read the previewed words, they mirror my words exactly.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=qsQTCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA1026&lpg=PA1026&dq=truth+behind+Ford+and+toyota+hybrid+system&source=bl&ots=P6kPs7-5OO&sig=R-bBwO_prdr8k4chAinYX4b_B1w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwisp7G32OnQAhVW0WMKHdyUBuEQ6AEIPTAG#v=onepage&q=truth behind Ford and toyota hybrid system&f=false

    Then wait for the upgraded 5.0L.  It adds DI and a significant bump in both hp and torque. 460-470hp and around 430ftlbs combined with the 10 speed, should be very welcome.  The new 470ftlb EcoBoost is not just about peak torque, but instant and flat torque.  The new boost control system is even quicker to respond and the lag is barely there now.  And fuel economy is just better, under most driving conditions.  Like anything, when you play, you pay.

    Yup. I'm willing to give the new EBs another shot.  The current ones haven't convinced me yet.

    I was just on the Ford Build Your Own site, and was disappointed to see that you can't get the 5.0 and the 10-speed together yet.  Not that big a deal to me right now, I won't be making a move until late spring to early summer at the soonest.   I've recently spent some time behind the wheel of a Hemi Grand Cherokee.  Even as old as the Hemi is, there is a smooth steady confidence I get with that V8 compared to a boosted V6.   The numbers on paper may be in favor of the boosted V6es, but they just don't have the feel.   Even my weakling, wheezing, old Oldsmobile 307 has it. 

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)

    Posted

    BTW, the new 5.0L should see a slight improvement in FE, even with the increased power.

    It will by itself almost match the ability of the 6.2L GM V8.  It will certainly best it in FE

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    5 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

    BTW, the new 5.0L should see a slight improvement in FE, even with the increased power.

    It will by itself almost match the ability of the 6.2L GM V8.  It will certainly best it in FE

    drew, completely love that bike.  You have to buy it.

    I was completely sold on the Kawasaki Vulcan S until I drove that BMW R Nine T Scrambler.....  I was in love at first ride.   I test drove about 8 different bikes that day.  Surprisingly, not many auto journalists have their motorcycle license, so there wasn't a lot of people testing bikes.  I was so enamored with the BMW, the PR rep let me take it out again for most of the afternoon. 

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)

    Posted

    2 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Yup. I'm willing to give the new EBs another shot.  The current ones haven't convinced me yet.

    I was just on the Ford Build Your Own site, and was disappointed to see that you can't get the 5.0 and the 10-speed together yet.  Not that big a deal to me right now, I won't be making a move until late spring to early summer at the soonest.   I've recently spent some time behind the wheel of a Hemi Grand Cherokee.  Even as old as the Hemi is, there is a smooth steady confidence I get with that V8 compared to a boosted V6.   The numbers on paper may be in favor of the boosted V6es, but they just don't have the feel.   Even my weakling, wheezing, old Oldsmobile 307 has it. 

    From what I understand, it is a controls nightmare offering 10 speeds with 7 driving modes with their new skip-step tech (forget what they called it).  The timing was aligned with the new D35, but there are several new engines coming, not ready yet, including the 5.0L upgrade.  

    Imagine trying to align it all at the same time. I have nightmares with my simple technology projects.  I can't even fathom all that together.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    1 minute ago, Wings4Life said:

    BTW, the new 5.0L should see a slight improvement in FE, even with the increased power.

    It will by itself almost match the ability of the 6.2L GM V8.  It will certainly best it in FE

    I few 10ths here and there won't matter to me... I'm not pulling horse trailers. As long as the performance is sufficient, which even the current 5.0 would be, it will come down to looks and "the deal".   The only F-150 I'm interested in is the King Ranch because I love the look. 

    The order for me is:

    1. Specific features I want (does it have a V8 is included in this)

    2. Looks (I'm very particular on looks)

    3. Price (Denali Ultimate is in the running... so it's more of how much of a "deal" I can get)

    • Agree 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites




    Join the conversation

    You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
    Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

    Guest
    Add a comment...

    ×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

      Only 75 emoji are allowed.

    ×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

    ×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

    ×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • google-news-icon.png



  • Community Hive Community Hive

    Community Hive allows you to follow your favorite communities all in one place.

    Follow on Community Hive
  • google-news-icon.png

  • Subscribe to Cheers & Gears

    Cheers and Gears Logo

    Since 2001 we've brought you real content and honest opinions, not AI-generated stuff with no feeling or opinions influenced by the manufacturers.

    Please consider subscribing. Subscriptions can be as little as $1.75 a month, and a paid subscription drops most ads.*
     

    You can view subscription options here.

    *a very limited number of ads contain special coupon deals for our members and will show

  • Similar Content

  • Posts

    • I have to say that I am very excited by this potential competitor to the Cadillac EscaladeIQ. Both Full size Luxury SUVs. Interiors Yes I know the Genesis is a concept and the suicide doors and flip chairs will not make it to production, but I do hope those chair designs do as they look very comfy and supportive. I have to say that I really like the exterior styling of the Genesis even more than the Escalade.
    • Yeah, it doesn't seem super space efficient.
    • So three major problems with this car, one, terrible Jellybean external shape, not impressed at all with the style. Second is the buttonless dash having everything via a touch screen and rotary knob, terrible safety issue as your eyes will be off the road more than on trying to find the right option in the right menu. Third is the center pack clearly cuts into valuable leg space based on their own picture. This is a hard pass.
    • Great Masculine shape, really digging the style they did here.
    • First seen at the Shanghai Auto Show (see article: Polestar 4 - The New Breed of Electric SUV Coupe), Polestar brought the Polestar 4 to the New York International Auto Show for North Americans to see in person. Polestar calls the Polestar 4 an "electric SUV 4-door coupe". Outside of that marketing speak, the Polestar 4 is a slightly lifted four-door hatchback about 190 inches in length, or roughly 2 inches shorter than a Toyota Camry.  Built without rear glass, the Polestar 4 makes use of a rear camera for visibility astern. Polestar 4 features a plethora of standard content, including 20-inch 5 V-spoke black diamond cut alloy wheels, panoramic glass roof, adaptive cruise control, 360 parking camera with 3D view, energy saving heat pump, front-illuminated Polestar logo, e-latch doors, power-operated tailgate with soft close, Polestar digital key, wireless phone charging, and 8-way electrical driver seat and 6-way electrical passenger seat. The fastest production car the brand has ever developed to date, Polestar 4 can accomplish a 0-60 mph sprint in 3.7 seconds and in top spec can produce 544 horsepower. Long-range single-motor variants have 272 horsepower and a targeted EPA range of over 300 miles. All long range variants have a 102 kWh battery capable of 200 kW charging on a DC Fast Charger and 11 kW on home level-2 charging. Google built-in is ... built in and includes Google Assistant, Google Maps and Google Play. Polestar continues to offer a leading connected in-car experience. As with all other Polestar cars, regular over-the-air updates allow for new features and improvements to be sent remotely to all vehicles. Pricing starts at $54,900, with orders opening in April for deliveries in the latter half of this year.   View full article
  • Who's Online (See full list)

    • There are no registered users currently online
  • My Clubs

×
×
  • Create New...

Hey there, we noticed you're using an ad-blocker. We're a small site that is supported by ads or subscriptions. We rely on these to pay for server costs and vehicle reviews.  Please consider whitelisting us in your ad-blocker, or if you really like what you see, you can pick up one of our subscriptions for just $1.75 a month or $15 a year. It may not seem like a lot, but it goes a long way to help support real, honest content, that isn't generated by an AI bot.

See you out there.

Drew
Editor-in-Chief

Write what you are looking for and press enter or click the search icon to begin your search

Change privacy settings