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    Performance Cars Dead? Not According to Hyundai's N Brand EVs

      Hyundai Motor's N Brand Unveils Two rolling lab concepts, signaling High-Performance Vision for the electrification era.

    Hyundai Motor's is on a fast forward push toward electrification from their luxury division Genesis to the core Hyundai auto's and even their budget brand Kia.  All three brands are pushing hard to be electrified totally by 2030 and with that, the industry overall has gone with consumers taste for SUVs and trucks as more and more auto companies kill off the cars.

    Hyundai brought out their N sub-brand for only a couple performance focused ICE auto's and while outstanding in their selective categories, customers have asked for more including the electrified crowd wanting more performance in their EVs as they start to come out on the global market. Hyundai is showing their commitment to the car side of electrification by showing two functional concepts that demonstrate the company's commitment to the future focused on zero-emissions technologies. RN22e and N Vision 74 are Hyundai's inspirational examples of N's electrification vision. These two "Rolling Lab" concepts demonstrate Hyundai's ambition to not only become a leader in zero-emission autos but performance autos for the future.

     Hyundai's first electric concept is the RN22e which uses their innovative E-GMP platform and is a fully functional racetrack-ready performance sedan and packaged in the IONIQ 6 based streamliner design.

    Hyundai has tested the RN22e to maximize the three pillars that make up the N's performance focus.

    1. Corner Rascal - N developed cornering capability since the brand launch, providing e-LSD, Corner Carving Differential for N models. RN22e corner carving is accomplished by using torque vectoring with AWD. Optimized torque distribution for all different drive modes allows the driver to choose the torque power they want for front and rear wheels.
    2. Track optimized cooling and braking - RN22e provides track-optimized settings, allowing customers to enjoy circuit driving without derating the performance of the EV. Four piston monoblock calipers and a 400-mm hybrid disc system allows the RN22e to withstand the weight of electric system. Hyundai will use the RN22e to study and deliver superior dynamic movement with regen-braking that precisely controls yaw and corner attack.
    3. N Sound+ & N e-shift - Hyundai understands the connection humans have with sound, RN22e provides generated sounds from interior and exterior speakers that enhance the dynamic driving feel. N e-shift integrates vibration and shifting feel with N Sound+ to deliver an emotional driving experience. N Sound+ and N e-shift will allow the driver to select the driving experience they want enhancing the fun of driving their Ioniq EV.

    The RN22e leverage of the IONIQ 6's streamliner design helps to maximize performance with low ground clearance, emphasized shoulders with a distinct wide and sturdy stance. The low bumper design offers a sporty, radiating charm while enhancing cooling and aerodynamics according to the N's design team.

    RN 22e AWD Specifications:

    • Total Max Power - 430 kW or 577 HP
    • Total Max Torque - 740 Nm or 546 lb-ft
    • Battery Capacity - 77.4 kWh multi-charging capable in 400V or 800V
      • Charging time to 80%, less than 18 min.
    • Max Speed - 250 kph or 155 mph plus
    • Length / Width / Height / Wheelbase - 4,915 MM / 2,023 MM / 1,479 mm / 2,950 mm or 194 inches / 80 inches / 58 inches / 117 inches

     

    N Vision 74 is inspired by the Hyundai N 2025 Vision Gran Turismo and the Hyundai Pony Coupe concept from 1974. The N Vision 74 is a high-performance hydrogen fuel cell electrified performance car. Hyundai hired legendary car designer Giorgetto Guigiaro to design the 1974 Pony Coupe Concept which became prototypes for Hyundai's first production sports car. While the car did not see production, the daring attitude was set for the Hyundai corporation in setting the tone for the entire company of products.

    The N Vision 74 was given the pure surface from the 1974 Pony car along with a dynamic profile and unique B pillar and Parametric Pixel lighting to provide a futuristic look.

    N Vision 74 is a driver focused car first and foremost, while no interior pictures have been supplied, Hyundai does say that car has a driver-centric cockpit with a blend of heritage elements and modern design, having a digital cluster and analogue buttons.

    Hyundai's engineers developed this hybrid system of hydrogen / battery electric system that has improved cooling efficiency while using two different power sources depending on the driving conditions as you get torque vectoring from the twin rear motors for precise and responsive cornering and added electrical boost from the Hydrogen generator supplying electrical needs including additional boost, giving you both fun, performance, sporty driving while also allowing for long range and fast refueling times.

    The N Vision 74 RWD Specifications:

    • Total Max Power - 500 kW or 671 HP
    • Total Max Torque - 900 Nm or 664 lb-ft of torque
    • Battery Capacity - 62.4 kWh with 800V fast-charging
    • Hydrogen 
      • Tank capacity - 4.2 kg
      • Fuel Cell stack - Max 95 kW
      • Refueling time - 5 min
    • Max Speed - 250 kph or 155 mph plus
    • Length / Width / Height / Wheelbase - 4,952 MM / 1,995 MM / 1,331 mm / 2,905 mm or 195 inches / 78 inches / 52 inches / 114 inches
    • Driving Range - Over 600 km or Over 373 Miles

    Project RM or what Hyundai calls "Racing Midship" was started in 2012 to embark on developing new technology and innovation which has brought to Hyundai a performance rear-drive, midship powertrain configuration. The fundamental difference of this design provides an ideal balance of handling and agility from a low polar moment of inertia and can be found in the N product line of autos.

    RM series has evolved to the current RM19, this platform facilitates an engineering rolling lab to test high-performance technologies while connecting to the tarmac at all speeds and driving conditions. The RM validating of advanced technologies, increase performance and end up in applications for future N models.

    Two years ago, the RM20e Racing Midship Sports Car was Hyundai's first High-Performance BEV and their first attempt at applying a zero-emissions powertrain to a high-performance car. This technology will now show up as it has been fine tuned in N versions of the IONIQ product line.

    2023 IONIQ 5 N edition will be available for sale on the global market with more details about the IONIQ 5 N edition to be released closer to the on-sale release.

    More details will also be released on an ongoing basis from the N YouTube channel: Hyundai N Worldwide - YouTube

    Hyundai believes auto enthusiast will be excited to know they will have N performance versions of both Cars and SUVs in the future BEV product line.

    IONIQ Articles | Hyundai Worldwide

    Hyundai Motor’s N Brand Unveils Two Rolling Lab Concepts, Signaling High-Performance Vision for Electrification Era

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    The N Vision 74 is really cool, although they'd have to make it an EV, a fuel cell isn't going to sell since there is no hydrogen network.  Hopefully they build both of those.

    Performance cars aren't dead, but all these EV performance cars are just 500-100 hp and fly in a straight line but weigh 5,000+ lbs so it isn't like they are going to handle like a Lotus in the corners.

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    9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Performance cars aren't dead, but all these EV performance cars are just 500-100 hp and fly in a straight line but weigh 5,000+ lbs so it isn't like they are going to handle like a Lotus in the corners.

    Model 3 Performance is 4000-4100lbs and put down 0.95g laterally. No Lotus, but that's no joke. That's legitimate performance. 

    https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/tesla-model-3-vs-jaguar-i-pace-vs-alfa-romeo-giulia/

     

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    2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    The N Vision 74 is really cool, although they'd have to make it an EV, a fuel cell isn't going to sell since there is no hydrogen network.  Hopefully they build both of those.

    Performance cars aren't dead, but all these EV performance cars are just 500-100 hp and fly in a straight line but weigh 5,000+ lbs so it isn't like they are going to handle like a Lotus in the corners.

    Neither do M5s, AMG63s, and Hellcats... so I don't see your point.  Those probably handle in the same league as a Model S

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    23 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Neither do M5s, AMG63s, and Hellcats... so I don't see your point.  Those probably handle in the same league as a Model S

    An M5 or E63 is still lighter than a Model S, and would beat a Model S on a race track.  But my point more is with sports cars, like a 911 or Corvette or something.  An EV Corvette or 911 with a 90 kWh battery would be like a 4500 lb car, I don't know if that is really keeping with the spirit of the sports car idea.   No one is making an EV sports car or convertible right now, because I think they can't get the weight out and a 3800 lb Miata EV with 200 hp at $50k probably isn't going to sell.  Stuff like Miata, Toyota 86, or even Supra or Nissan Z that maybe aren't all about straight line power and are about driving dynamics doesn't really exist in the EV world.  

    Cadillac fans for a few years were saying how light weight the ATS and CTS were, the Lyric is 5600-5900 lbs.  

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    35 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Neither do M5s, AMG63s, and Hellcats... so I don't see your point.  Those probably handle in the same league as a Model S

    Exactly. 

    AMG GT's (non-Black Series) weigh 3600-3700lb, C63's weigh nearly 4000lb, M3/M4's are pretty light, in comparison but AMGs aren't all that concerned about weight, unless it's a Black Series. 

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    43 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    An M5 or E63 is still lighter than a Model S, and would beat a Model S on a race track.  But my point more is with sports cars, like a 911 or Corvette or something.  An EV Corvette or 911 with a 90 kWh battery would be like a 4500 lb car, I don't know if that is really keeping with the spirit of the sports car idea.   No one is making an EV sports car or convertible right now, because I think they can't get the weight out and a 3800 lb Miata EV with 200 hp at $50k probably isn't going to sell.  Stuff like Miata, Toyota 86, or even Supra or Nissan Z that maybe aren't all about straight line power and are about driving dynamics doesn't really exist in the EV world.  

    Cadillac fans for a few years were saying how light weight the ATS and CTS were, the Lyric is 5600-5900 lbs.  

    Cadillac Magna ride has proven even in an almost 10,000 lbs SUV V edition they can make it handle. Engineering given time can pretty much make anything work. Just look at the handling and speed of the Hummer by GMC. 3.2 seconds in a 0 to 60 mph which you have used to quote performance all the time and on top of this with a low center of gravity, it handles well too even at the 9,000lb weight of that EV brick.

    As has been proven over and over, a Tesla Platinum S versus and AMG Black and Tesla destroys the AMG Black.

    Top Gear says it best, The Best Days of ICE are Over!

     

    With that, who says Hyundai N EVs cannot beat an AMG Black if they wanted too.

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    1 hour ago, David said:

    Cadillac Magna ride has proven even in an almost 10,000 lbs SUV V edition they can make it handle. Engineering given time can pretty much make anything work. Just look at the handling and speed of the Hummer by GMC. 3.2 seconds in a 0 to 60 mph which you have used to quote performance all the time and on top of this with a low center of gravity, it handles well too even at the 9,000lb weight of that EV brick.

    As has been proven over and over, a Tesla Platinum S versus and AMG Black and Tesla destroys the AMG Black.

    Top Gear says it best, The Best Days of ICE are Over!

     

    With that, who says Hyundai N EVs cannot beat an AMG Black if they wanted too.

    You brought up a lot of straight line performance, I already said EV’s kill it in a straight line.  But they don’t in the corners.

    The Taycan ( the fastest one) is the Nurburgring EV record holder at 7:42.  That’s 19 seconds slower than the AMG GT63 4-door which is similar size and price.  The Taycan is 59 seconds behind an AMG Black Series or the aftermarket Mod 911 which are the all out sports cars.

    But my other point was on the more affordable side of sports cars.  For $30-40k you can get a Miata, BRZ/GR86, GTI, WRX, Mustang, Camaro, etc.  All 4-cylinder cars with some fun factor.  There is no EV version of that, they can’t make a lower weight, fund handling car.

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    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    You brought up a lot of straight line performance, I already said EV’s kill it in a straight line.  But they don’t in the corners.

    The Taycan ( the fastest one) is the Nurburgring EV record holder at 7:42.  That’s 19 seconds slower than the AMG GT63 4-door which is similar size and price.  The Taycan is 59 seconds behind an AMG Black Series or the aftermarket Mod 911 which are the all out sports cars.

    But my other point was on the more affordable side of sports cars.  For $30-40k you can get a Miata, BRZ/GR86, GTI, WRX, Mustang, Camaro, etc.  All 4-cylinder cars with some fun factor.  There is no EV version of that, they can’t make a lower weight, fund handling car.

    Yet again, you clearly have not paid attention to the fact that Tesla Platinum S has more than proven itself at Nurburgring.

    Watch The Tesla Model S Plaid Set A New EV Nurburgring Lap Record (forbes.com)

    A Tesla Model S Plaid has set a new lap record for electric production cars at the Nurburgring, with an official lap time of 7min 35.579secs.

    Not the Taycan!

    For Racing again, NOT BMW nor Mercedes, but VW for EV record in racing at the same track.

    Volkswagen ID.R is “Electric Racing Car of the Year” | Volkswagen Newsroom (volkswagen-newsroom.com)

    Volkswagen ID.R Breaks Nurburgring EV Lap Record With a 6:05.336 (roadandtrack.com)

    If you have looked at any of the latest Hummer by GMC videos as I stated, they do handle for how heavy they are and

    EXCUSES, EXCUSES, EXCUSES. 

    Every leader has their day and then someone else comes along and beats them. GM had their day; Mercedes came along in the 80's to 90's and replaced them. Now it looks like Hyundai is doing it and Cadillac is starting to rebuild to get back to the Standard of the world. The next 8 years are going to really show the changes that will happen in the auto industry and YES, I expect Hyundai to deliver the next Pony EV car for people who want driving dynamics with Performance in the $30 - $40 K range.

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    1 hour ago, David said:

    Yet again, you clearly have not paid attention to the fact that Tesla Platinum S has more than proven itself at Nurburgring.

    Watch The Tesla Model S Plaid Set A New EV Nurburgring Lap Record (forbes.com)

    A Tesla Model S Plaid has set a new lap record for electric production cars at the Nurburgring, with an official lap time of 7min 35.579secs.

    Not the Taycan!

    For Racing again, NOT BMW nor Mercedes, but VW for EV record in racing at the same track.

    Volkswagen ID.R is “Electric Racing Car of the Year” | Volkswagen Newsroom (volkswagen-newsroom.com)

    Volkswagen ID.R Breaks Nurburgring EV Lap Record With a 6:05.336 (roadandtrack.com)

    If you have looked at any of the latest Hummer by GMC videos as I stated, they do handle for how heavy they are and

    EXCUSES, EXCUSES, EXCUSES. 

    Every leader has their day and then someone else comes along and beats them. GM had their day; Mercedes came along in the 80's to 90's and replaced them. Now it looks like Hyundai is doing it and Cadillac is starting to rebuild to get back to the Standard of the world. The next 8 years are going to really show the changes that will happen in the auto industry and YES, I expect Hyundai to deliver the next Pony EV car for people who want driving dynamics with Performance in the $30 - $40 K range.

    Well the Taycan had the record.  The AMG GT63S is 7:23 though, beats the Plaid by 12 seconds.  The Black Series is 6:43, over 52 seconds a lap faster.

    The Hummer might handle well for a 9,000 lb vehicle, but that's because it weighs double of a normal size SUV, so what do you compare it too.  I am saying where is the EV that can handle with a Miata, BRZ, Corvette, Boxster/Cayman, etc.  Car and Driver compared the AMG EQS to the Model S Plaid, stated the AMG is better but it isn't enough AMG.   These EV's can blitz a quarter mile, but it is one trick pony performance, so I'd like to see the handling, breaking, weight cutting come into play, which over time with battery tech will eventually happen.

    I hope Hyundai makes the 74, but it's a $75k car or more if they put 577 hp in it, the Ioniq 6 N is probably a $75k car, that's getting to low end Corvette money.   That's too much money for those.   Right now $40k is the base Ioniq 5 with 168 hp that weighs 4,000 lbs, not exactly a Golf GTI or Civic Type R competitor for fun factor.

     

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    5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    An M5 or E63 is still lighter than a Model S, and would beat a Model S on a race track

    And he just showed you where the Plaid S ran faster than both of the above. You bringing up the pricer AMG GT was pointless and yet again, bar moving nonsense.

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    45 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

    And he just showed you where the Plaid S ran faster than both of the above. You bringing up the pricer AMG GT was pointless and yet again, bar moving nonsense.

    M5 CS is 7:29 on the Ring, so is the Porsche Panamera, both faster than Model S Plaid.  I can't find a current E63 sedan time, the E63 wagon holds the wagon record at 7:45 and that was set in 2017.   GT63S has the 4-door record still, and that's basically an E63.   And these are cars that the Tesla has 400 hp on which further proves my point that it sucks in the corners.  The Corvette has 50% the horsepower of a Model S Plaid and is quicker around the Nurburgring by a few seconds.  

    There is no electric car that can handle as well as a good ICE car, it's just pure fact.  I hope they fix that in the future.  But until they do, you aren't going to see the "fun to drive" $40k (or less) EV.  Maybe Hyundai will figure it out.

     

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    43 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    M5 CS is 7:29 on the Ring, so is the Porsche Panamera, both faster than Model S Plaid.  I can't find a current E63 sedan time, the E63 wagon holds the wagon record at 7:45 and that was set in 2017.   GT63S has the 4-door record still, and that's basically an E63.   And these are cars that the Tesla has 400 hp on which further proves my point that it sucks in the corners.  The Corvette has 50% the horsepower of a Model S Plaid and is quicker around the Nurburgring by a few seconds.  

    There is no electric car that can handle as well as a good ICE car, it's just pure fact.  I hope they fix that in the future.  But until they do, you aren't going to see the "fun to drive" $40k (or less) EV.  Maybe Hyundai will figure it out.

     

    Yet the point of this story was about performance electric concepts that Hyundai are using to ensure they have Performance Electric.

    You cannot point to ANY Mercedes EV that can outperform the Tesla and as such you point to ICE. Apple to Orange Comparison.

    The fact that Tesla BEATS most of AMG Black auto's and only a couple ICE are a few seconds faster shows that Electric is about to take everything ICE had away and will do it faster, cleaner and better.

    Hyundai as even you said has built a lovely looking Electric Concept and I would say that all of us that have posted on this new release love the design of the N Vision 74. Just make it pure Electric and stop wasting time on the Hydrogen thing as the best place for Hydrogen is in the Commercial market in Medium and Heavy-duty trucks. 

    Accept that fact that Mercedes has NOTHING right now to beat Tesla on, they also are losing out to other companies that are beating them. 

    Example, Mercedes won ZERO Red Dot awards over the last few years for the Luxury Auto Segment and Hyundai continues to clean up as the best Luxury maker right now.

    Genesis Media Center : GENESIS SWEEPS THE BOARD AT RED DOT DESIGN AWARDS 2022

    620738.jpg

    VW has won for their segment in the auto Industry but seems the rest of German auto companies have lost out to Asian companies.

    Red Dot Design Award (red-dot.org)

    Even Lowly Buick won an award last year. Red Dot Design Award: Buick Electra (red-dot.org)

    End Result is Mercedes is on a slide down, they are following and trailing other global auto companies living on past glory for sales.

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    15 hours ago, David said:

    Cadillac Magna ride has proven even in an almost 10,000 lbs SUV V edition they can make it handle. Engineering given time can pretty much make anything work. Just look at the handling and speed of the Hummer by GMC. 3.2 seconds in a 0 to 60 mph which you have used to quote performance all the time and on top of this with a low center of gravity, it handles well too even at the 9,000lb weight of that EV brick.

    That thing stops as bad as 1 ton dually trucks. Not the greatest example of engineers being able to make anything work. 

    You pretty much made exactly Smk's point, EVs can get after it in a straight line and nothing else. 

    And you're the only one saying it "handles well".

    "There's so much pitch, dive, and roll when the GMC Hummer EV Pickup accelerates, decelerates, or changes direction, it looks like something out of a children's cartoon.

    This kind of silliness makes us giddy, but we also need to pause a moment and strongly recommend against ever using WTF mode on public roads. Cruising at 60 mph, the 9,000-pound Hummer needs 137 feet to stop when you mash the brake pedal on the floor. That's 3 feet farther than a 2020 GMC Sierra 3500HD diesel dually. Even with its crazy amount of regenerative braking, this truck absolutely does not have brakes commensurate with its power and speed capabilities.

    Think about it: In just 3.0 seconds, you're traveling fast enough to need the same braking space as a dually, and you're still accelerating like crazy. It would be beyond easy to get into a situation where you're traveling way too fast to stop for another vehicle, a pedestrian, an animal, or anything else. You might not even be able to slow down enough to make a corner if you don't lift and brake soon enough. This is a crazy amount of weight moving ridiculously fast on all-terrain off-road tires, and the laws of physics are merciless."

    https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-gmc-hummer-ev-pickup-first-edition-first-test-review/

     

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    Lets wheel this in just a little bit...    (Pun on words...reel versus wheel...   This is an automobile site forum...)

    1. BMW M5 CS is 7:29 on the Ring, so is the Porsche Panamera, both faster than Model S Plaid.  I can't find a current E63 sedan time, the E63 wagon holds the wagon record at 7:45....

    The Model S Plaid is 7:36 on the 'Ring....   BMW and Porsche lives on the 'Ring. Especially the M5 CS.   Not too bad for an EV sedan when 'Ring times were a 6-7 year AFTERTHOUGHT on the same generation platform Model S from Tesla.   The E63 wagon that was quoted because of some sort of German superiority is still slowler than the heavy Model S EV sedan than NEVER had ANY intentions of doing ANY kind of track...   

    2. The HUMMER, although its praised by its maker for being quick in a straight line, is not its primary role.  Its an offroading monster, literally a monster as big as a Costco and just about as heavy as a Costco building... 

    Offoading tires on it...   

    And no, it shoudnt be allowed to have a watts to freedom acceleration as its not engineered to handle all that acceleration and stopping with 9000 lbs and off roading tires and no brakes to handle all those forces.  

    When the HUMMER is acceleration watts to freedom, it is limited to 106 MPH by the computer though... BECAUSE of the lack of braking AND the type of tires it comes with...

    watch the video

     

    3.  EVs  usually, inherently handle like they are on rails, well, the ones with a skateboard platform, because all the battery weight is below the axles beneath the rest of the passenger stuff.....

    The over all weight is greatly masked.     The HUMMER is NOT focused to track, the HUMMER is focused on doing HUMMER things.  Doing off road, but mostly, giving the owner the attention he craves.  Look at me, Im an arrogant doouchee!!!    And it succeeds in that 100000000000%!!!    It steals the show away from a MB G Wagon and Lamborghini with ease!!! 

     

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    13 hours ago, David said:

    Yet the point of this story was about performance electric concepts that Hyundai are using to ensure they have Performance Electric.

    You cannot point to ANY Mercedes EV that can outperform the Tesla and as such you point to ICE. Apple to Orange Comparison.

    The fact that Tesla BEATS most of AMG Black auto's and only a couple ICE are a few seconds faster shows that Electric is about to take everything ICE had away and will do it faster, cleaner and better.

    Hyundai as even you said has built a lovely looking Electric Concept and I would say that all of us that have posted on this new release love the design of the N Vision 74. Just make it pure Electric and stop wasting time on the Hydrogen thing as the best place for Hydrogen is in the Commercial market in Medium and Heavy-duty trucks.

    I like what Hyundai and Genesis are doing, and I like they they are getting into performance too.

    And I think you can compare EV to ICE.  My point is with these performance EV’s is it is straight line only.  You said Tesla can out perform other EV’s, but the Plaid’s lap time is slower than a Corvette that has half the horsepower.  Put a 500 hp EV on a track against a 500 hp Corvette and see what happens.  
     

    And this leads to the affordable sports car issue I brought up.  A Miata, BRZ, GTI, Ecoboost Mustang are like $30k range, get into the 40s and the Supra and Z are there.  I doubt there will ever be a 200-300 hp sub $40k EV sports car that weighs under 3500 lbs and is tossable in corners.

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    50 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    I like what Hyundai and Genesis are doing, and I like they they are getting into performance too.

    And I think you can compare EV to ICE.  My point is with these performance EV’s is it is straight line only.  You said Tesla can out perform other EV’s, but the Plaid’s lap time is slower than a Corvette that has half the horsepower.  Put a 500 hp EV on a track against a 500 hp Corvette and see what happens.  
     

    And this leads to the affordable sports car issue I brought up.  A Miata, BRZ, GTI, Ecoboost Mustang are like $30k range, get into the 40s and the Supra and Z are there.  I doubt there will ever be a 200-300 hp sub $40k EV sports car that weighs under 3500 lbs and is tossable in corners.

    I don't think it would be difficult to cut 500lb off of a Model 3 to get to about 3500lbs.

    Actually, when they offered a RWD model, that wasn't long range, I bet that was right around 3500lbs and that's a sedan. I bet that could be made into a coupe with the same exact battery and motors therefore increasing its range AND its performance with the same parts. 

    Their "standard range" battery and "standard range plus" battery in RWD form was good for 220 and 240 miles, respectively. That was also good for a 0-60 time of 5.0 seconds. That's a second quicker than an Ecoboost Mustang with the 10 spd.

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    49 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    I like what Hyundai and Genesis are doing, and I like they they are getting into performance too.

    And I think you can compare EV to ICE.  My point is with these performance EV’s is it is straight line only.  You said Tesla can out perform other EV’s, but the Plaid’s lap time is slower than a Corvette that has half the horsepower.  Put a 500 hp EV on a track against a 500 hp Corvette and see what happens.  
     

    And this leads to the affordable sports car issue I brought up.  A Miata, BRZ, GTI, Ecoboost Mustang are like $30k range, get into the 40s and the Supra and Z are there.  I doubt there will ever be a 200-300 hp sub $40k EV sports car that weighs under 3500 lbs and is tossable in corners.

    Weight will always add slowness to any auto, EV or ICE. As such, you compensate with more horsepower and torque. Common Sense!

    That being said there is no reason to not have an EV even with more HP / Torque outperform an ICE and Tesla is almost there far more than Porsche, Audi, VW, BMW and Mercedes.

    Affordability is coming, economy of scale is what GM and Hyundai are focused on. Yet Hyundai is also not forgetting Performance nor is GM. GM seems to be going at it from top down based on the rumors about Corvette Coupe, Sedan and SUV EV based on media reports. Hyundai has always been about frugal fun and as such, IONIQ 5 N edition will be interesting, and I forecast as economy of scale for battery packs, lower priced performance EVs will get there.

    Mazda did not have the Miata at the start, Mercedes did not have any AMG 1,2,3 series at the start, nor did BMW, Audi, etc. Performance ALWAYS has come after luxury and top end models are out which pay for the expensive R&D.

    Example, Mercedes EQS Globally, Tesla S Globally, Cadillac Lyriq, Porsche, etc. everyone has to pay for the R&D somehow and they are doing it with the top end first, pushing into the lower priced brackets as economy of scale builds.

    Hyundai has given us two AMAZING Concepts that to quote them are Rolling Labs on the roads / racetracks to prove what can be done with performance, yet Hyundai IONIQ and Kia EV are out first and the Genesis Luxury EV is in China and coming to the rest of the world this year.

    IONIQ 5 N edition is out in 2023, yes this will not be a $30,000 road going Miata equal or BRZ or GR86 as terrible built as they are with the engine problems they are having, but Hyundai is keeping all levels in mind as they R&D what can be done with performance and the videos of the Concepts in this thread show that track, drifting, etc. are all possible.

    I see NO GERMAN auto company that has built even a concept of a performance EV that can handle track or drift yet!

    Hyundai has and has a working proven concept.

    To QUOTE them, Track Optimized auto with proper cooling for Next Gen Driving Experience!

     

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    4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    I don't think it would be difficult to cut 500lb off of a Model 3 to get to about 3500lbs.

    Actually, when they offered a RWD model, that wasn't long range, I bet that was right around 3500lbs and that's a sedan. I bet that could be made into a coupe with the same exact battery and motors therefore increasing its range AND its performance with the same parts. 

    Their "standard range" battery and "standard range plus" battery in RWD form was good for 220 and 240 miles, respectively. That was also good for a 0-60 time of 5.0 seconds. That's a second quicker than an Ecoboost Mustang with the 10 spd.

    Tesla has this coming in the 2024 model built in Texas. Replacing 70 plus parts with a single cast frame system has already been stated to reduce weight by 400 pounds. Tesla has stated they plan to add in 2025 a front single cast system replacing the 80 plus frame parts and another about 400 pounds. As such Tesla is moving to the core frame of their autos to be a 3 piece system.

    I suspect that GM, FORD, Asian, European, etc. all Legacy Auto OEMs are prototyping single cast or dual cast frames for their EVs. The company that supplies Tesla has already admitted that both GM, Ford, Mercedes, BMW and VW/Porsche are talking with them for single cast machines to simply their next gen EV platforms.

    I think once you reduce all the parts to cast frame that allows a much more solid assembly while reducing weight you will see EVs get much closer to ICE in total curb weight.

    Remember how Legacy OEMs moved to Aluminum and High strength thin steel to replace heavy dense normal steel dropping on average 500 to 700 pounds for trucks and SUVs. 

    It will always be an engineering exercise to simplify, products and reduce weight for the auto industry.

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    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    And I think you can compare EV to ICE.  My point is with these performance EV’s is it is straight line only.

    Except it's not, especially when your initial comparison was regarding two other cars that were NOT the AMG GT you referenced later. After David showed where the Plaid S beat the two cars (that you first mentioned), you moved that bar in order to bring up the AMG GT. Point being, you were wrong on two fronts (EV's not having anything more than straight line speed and that the BMW and Benz you mentioned were BOTH slower than said EV around the track in question). No need to back pedal and make excuses because you were proven wrong. 

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    3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

    I don't think it would be difficult to cut 500lb off of a Model 3 to get to about 3500lbs.

    Actually, when they offered a RWD model, that wasn't long range, I bet that was right around 3500lbs and that's a sedan. I bet that could be made into a coupe with the same exact battery and motors therefore increasing its range AND its performance with the same parts. 

    Their "standard range" battery and "standard range plus" battery in RWD form was good for 220 and 240 miles, respectively. That was also good for a 0-60 time of 5.0 seconds. That's a second quicker than an Ecoboost Mustang with the 10 spd.

    Per the Tesla website, the base rear drive standard range Model 3 is 3,862 lbs, 0-60 in 5.8 seconds and 272 mile range.  The 2022 Mercedes C300 is also around 3800 lbs, does 0-60 on 5.3 seconds per Car and Driver test.  I wouldn’t really call the C300 a sports car either.  
     

    I don’t see how Tesla takes 400 lbs out of a Model 3 without shrinking the battery and sacrificing range.  

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    3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

    Except it's not, especially when your initial comparison was regarding two other cars that were NOT the AMG GT you referenced later. After David showed where the Plaid S beat the two cars (that you first mentioned), you moved that bar in order to bring up the AMG GT. Point being, you were wrong on two fronts (EV's not having anything more than straight line speed and that the BMW and Benz you mentioned were BOTH slower than said EV around the track in question). No need to back pedal and make excuses because you were proven wrong. 

    I first said the Taycan was the fastest EV around the Nurburgring, which it once was but the Plaid beat it.  I brought up the AMG GT63 4-door and the M5, which are both faster than the Plaid, so is the Panamera.  3 sedans faster than the Plaid and the Plaid has 400 hp more.  Proving my point that it doesn’t have the handling or braking.  

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    According to the wikipedia list of Nurburgring times there are 89 cars faster than the Tesla Model S Plaid.  Including this $59,000 (base MSRP) Audi which beat it by .05 seconds

    spacer.png

    And to update my earlier post, the E63 is not longer the fastest wagon, in May 2022 the BMW M3 Touring beat it and is now the wagon record holder, and is also faster than the Plaid.  So Tesla and the other EV's have work to do.  And I like the idea of EV's, so I hope they can get the weight out and get the cost out and come up with some good stuff.

    The Ionic 5 N and Ionic 6 N are probably $70,000 cars, I think that's a lot for a Hyundai performance mid-size sedan or crossover.  A Cadillac CT5V (not the Blackwing) started at $51k, might not be as fast in a straight line but probably overall on a track is, and the aforementioned Audi RS3 is $59k! Now if Hyundai builds that 74 concept for under $45k, goodnight 300Z, Supra and Mustang (Camaro is going goodnight regardless).

     

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