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  • G. David Felt
    G. David Felt

    Will Competition Destroy Tesla?

      It is hard to judge a company by one month of auto sales let alone two months, but when you have 3 months or more in a market that had no competition and now does, dropping near the bottom in sales should make any CEO question what needs to be done to improve sales. Norway with 60.4% of new auto sales being EV is becoming a struggle for Tesla and Ford is the latest to show them up!

    Norway has been in the news lately and not just a little but across a wide range of news organizations. Norway has been very embracing of the move to EVs supporting just about every version that has come out from small EVs that would remind one of a Golf cart and illegal on the roads in the US to the luxury level of Tesla with the X and S auto's.

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    Norway has even been leading the world in the change over of their countries taxi fleet to EVs. One benefit to the taxi owner is the ability to write off half of the auto cost in the first year and the rest in the second year as long as the taxi travels over 100,000 kilometers per year. This allows private taxi drivers to purchase their own luxury ride to use as their work tool every day.

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    Tesla was the first to build out a very extensive network of charging infrastructure to support their auto's allowing owners to drive their EVs in any type of weather even very cold snowy winter.

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    As anyone in sales would know and to help everyone else understand, single month sales, and quarterly sales sales cannot always clearly show a trend about the success of a company. Even bi-yearly sales numbers while getting close to be considered a trend by some is not enough to state that a company has been a long term success.

    Tesla ever since they started to sell auto's in Norway back in 2009 with just 13 sold has pretty much had a captured market to themselves especially since Norway has been trying various ways to push a clean green agenda going back into the 1990's. Tesla sales spiked in 2019 at 18,798 EVs sold before plummeting as VW introduced the much more affordable ID.4 and other luxury makers such as Audi with their e-tron came on the market in 2020.

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    As per the jalopnik story, Tesla did not sell many auto's in association with other auto choices till recently making the sample size very small in auto markets around the world. Norway then becomes an even more important picture on EV sales as a country that was in many ways the first to embrace EVs, will be the first to phase out all new ICE auto sales starting January 1st 2025. Currently contrast Diesel auto's that sold in 2011 with a 75.7% market share to only 8.6% market share in 2020.  A market where there are more EV options at various price points than any other market has transformed their auto market.

    Lately, Tesla sales have not been that great and Ford Motor Company is off to a hot start with their Mustang Mach-e. Yes one can contribute this to the Ford EV being a new model but keep in mind that a year ago new auto sales had BEVs make up 43.1% of sales, this year, BEVs are averaging 60.4% of new auto sales with Ford having sold 1,384 Mach-e in May for a 10% share of Norways auto market. Toyota RAV4 hybrid is in second place and Skoda's electric Enyaq is in third. Currently in the top ten EVs sold in Norway, Tesla is coming in at 6th place.

    Let's let the monthly numbers speak for what is being sold in Norway:

    May 2021 top 10 best-selling auto's in Norway.

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    April 2021 top 10 best-selling auto's in Norway.

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    March 2021 top 10 best-selling auto's in Norway.

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    We then have no numbers, but a list was produced of the top 10 auto sales and unlike March, Tesla was in 8th place for auto sales in February:

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    The clear observation is that Tesla is NOT the dominant auto company in Norway and a concern for the CEO and company one would think. Clearly now that real competition is showing up, Tesla is going to have to address concerns about fit n finish, service, warranty issues, etc.

    In 2019 Tesla dominated the market for BEVs:

    image.png

    Per Norways largest news covering the auto industry, December pretty much saved the year, but even then shows some very interesting changes from 2019.

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    This on top of the full 2020 year showing that Tesla is only #6 in auto sales in Norway.

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    At this point, Tesla needs to deliver on a low end solution of BEVs for Norway and the world if they are to remain competitive and survive it would seem. This would be the time for a Model 2 and even maybe 1 to come out of Tesla giving low end solutions for auto buyers that currently cannot afford higher priced auto's.

    Ford Is Beating Tesla In One Of The Most EV-Saturated Markets In The World (jalopnik.com)

    • Norway: Tesla car sales 2009-2020 | Statista

    Ford's electric Mustang tops Norway car sales in May | Reuters

    Ford's electric Mustang tops Norway car sales in May | Nasdaq

    Historic December saved car sales | Dn

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    Interesting observation is that Mercedes-Benzes went on sale with their EQC and after two months of sales in the top 10 list, they dropped off for May. Makes one wonder about their tag line of Best or nothing at all! ?

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    I think Tesla is working on a car smaller and cheaper than the Model 3 that will likely appeal to Europe and China as well.  But they have to get Cybertruck and the Semi and Roadster all out.   I don't think their R&D staff or manufacturing capacity can take on another volume car right now.

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    5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    I think Tesla is working on a car smaller and cheaper than the Model 3 that will likely appeal to Europe and China as well.  But they have to get Cybertruck and the Semi and Roadster all out.   I don't think their R&D staff or manufacturing capacity can take on another volume car right now.

    It seems they also need to get Texas to let them sell the auto without having to ship it out of state and back in via a very convoluted sales process that just adds to the money losing process.

    With China online, California online, Nevada online and Germany supposedly close to coming online as well as Texas, one would think they could get all those going now, but it would seem money might be an issue for financing those auto options.

    Let us also not forget that Tesla let go all of their PR department and it seems cut back to just about zero any marketing. Then you have service problems globally. Tesla might have stretched themselves way too thin. Eventually customers are gonna say screw Tesla, just go and buy from the Ford Dealer a Mach-e. I can get full service, warranty, etc. at my local dealership.

    Makes ya go Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ?

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    13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    But they have to get Cybertruck and the Semi and Roadster all out.

    Two out of the three are niche sales at best and the other will get waxed by REAL pick ups. Not sure how that helps them long term at all.

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    2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

    Two out of the three are niche sales at best and the other will get waxed by REAL pick ups. Not sure how that helps them long term at all.

    RIGHT! The Semi will change, but that is very long term, to quote @balthazar changing the trucking industry to pure electric will probably take till 2275 while new sales might end by 2050 based on countries that want auto's phased out by 2035/40 and commercial trucks by 2050 if it stands.

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    There’s no way to legislate a ban that’s going to be massively counter to the market’s actual demographic. A 2035 IC ban in passenger vehicles will not stand.

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    19 hours ago, David said:

    It seems they also need to get Texas to let them sell the auto without having to ship it out of state and back in via a very convoluted sales process that just adds to the money losing process.

    With China online, California online, Nevada online and Germany supposedly close to coming online as well as Texas, one would think they could get all those going now, but it would seem money might be an issue for financing those auto options.

    Let us also not forget that Tesla let go all of their PR department and it seems cut back to just about zero any marketing. Then you have service problems globally. Tesla might have stretched themselves way too thin. Eventually customers are gonna say screw Tesla, just go and buy from the Ford Dealer a Mach-e. I can get full service, warranty, etc. at my local dealership.

    Makes ya go Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ?

    Well the Cybertruck is designed to do 750,000 miles with no maintenance except tires, so you don't really need a dealership.   

    Tesla has some issues and needs to get more models out and keep the existing ones updated.  However they aren't really at risk of losing customers, their owners are super loyal and they are gaining market share, not losing.

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    22 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Well the Cybertruck is designed to do 750,000 miles with no maintenance except tires

    Who told you that lie? Elon? Guess he left that little tidbit off of their other models, given their reliability record since day one, skipping the sheer bull$h! of thinking this thing is going to last that long without any maintenance outside of tires. That is literally the most absurd sales pitch I have ever heard. If I walked into a Tesla store and they told me that, I'd literally laugh myself right on out of there. 

     

    And owners are not THAT loyal when said company still hasn't improved upon said reliability since day one.

    Edited by surreal1272
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    2 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

    Who told you that lie? Elon? Guess he left that little tidbit off of their other models, given their reliability record since day one. 

     

    And owners are not THAT loyal when said company still hasn't improved upon said reliability since day one.

    That is what it says online.  May or may not be true, we will see.  

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    It was also 'designed to have bullet-proof glass', and we saw how that worked out.

    cybertruck brings no paint options, the world's largest blind spots and the world's most inaccessible bed to the table.
    Not sure very many people are actually 'going to see' by paying any money for one.

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    they are gaining market share, not losing.

    Incorrect- they are gaining VOLUME, they are losing MARKET SHARE.

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    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    That is what it says online.  May or may not be true, we will see.  

    Wow! The site says it huh? That’s about as convincing as the shatter proof glass that shattered upon first demo of it. 
     

    Sorry if I am not convinced by something that is an obvious lie. There is no “we will see” here. It’s a certain lie. 

    2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    they are gaining market share, not losing.

    Also a lie. 
    F5E0015B-7130-4011-8927-B23477EC36A5.thumb.jpeg.c34aa415ea29a894fba16c1529f8606d.jpeg

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-02/tesla-heads-for-biggest-drop-in-3-weeks-on-market-share-loss

     

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    2 hours ago, balthazar said:

    It was also 'designed to have bullet-proof glass', and we saw how that worked out.

    cybertruck brings no paint options, the world's largest blind spots and the world's most inaccessible bed to the table.
    Not sure very many people are actually 'going to see' by paying any money for one.

    Incorrect- they are gaining VOLUME, they are losing MARKET SHARE.

    Tesla is gaining total market share.  Losing EV market share because there are more EV's but using EV market share only is a horrible metric, total market is what matters.  Ford could cancel all models but the F150, go from selling 2.5 million cars a year to 750,000 and gain 5% market share in pick ups and claim they gained pick up segment market share, but who cares if they just lost 1.75 million sales.  Have to look at whole market.

    And the Cybertruck bed lowers in the rear, closer to the ground than any other pick up, so it is plenty accessible, actually the easiest to load on market because it comes with a ramp too.  

    1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

    Wow! The site says it huh? That’s about as convincing as the shatter proof glass that shattered upon first demo of it. 
     

    Sorry if I am not convinced by something that is an obvious lie. There is no “we will see” here. It’s a certain lie. 

    Also a lie. 
    F5E0015B-7130-4011-8927-B23477EC36A5.thumb.jpeg.c34aa415ea29a894fba16c1529f8606d.jpeg

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-02/tesla-heads-for-biggest-drop-in-3-weeks-on-market-share-loss

     

    EV market share doesn't matter.  Only total market share.  When Tesla sales are declining, while everyone else is growing, then they can worry.  

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    4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    using EV market share only is a horrible metric, total market is what matters.

    I don't disagree with this, but much of the industry reporting looks at it the other way (as BEV sales).

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    12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    That is what it says online.  May or may not be true, we will see.  

    ? Looking around and Tesla is NOT SAYING 750,000 miles of maintenance free driving.

    Cybertruck | Tesla

    Finally found the only places that mention that crazy figure and NO They do not quote Tesla, more of a Tesla Fanatic thinking Tesla can outlast everyone, but we have seen past and current quality and that is not happening with Tesla auto's.

    The Tesla Cybertruck Isn’t A Pickup — It's Much, Much More | CleanTechnica

    This is probably one of the best REALISTIC posts about Cybertruck. The person clearly states that the Heat Pump and Air Bladder system on the air suspension even if commercial grade will have to be replaced at 100,000 miles or at least rebuilt / serviced. Also an overall decent list of the service / replacement parts that would be needed on the Cybertruck.

    CyberTruck longevity | Tesla Motors Club

    Best part of this is that someone on the channel was stupid enough to say that Tesla's outlast all ICE. Another person posted a nice long list of competition trucks all between 461,000 and 872,000 miles on the odometer, verified via carfax listed for sale on autotrader at dealerships.

    Hard to have a GM or Ford that clearly has outlasted any current Tesla and for sale.

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    15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    That is what it says online.  May or may not be true, we will see.  

    We don’t have to see anything. 750K with zero maintenance is pure fantasy and pure marketing BS, like that bullet proof glass that shattered. It’s not even a debate as to its legitimacy except to someone like yourself. 

    2 hours ago, David said:

    Looking around and Tesla is NOT SAYING 750,000 miles of maintenance free driving.

    Exactly. It doesn’t even mention that on Tesla’s OWN PAGE so unless SMK saw that there (while providing no proof of), it is pure bunk. Even if it is mentioned, it is pure bunk lol. 

    11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Only total market share

    Then why did you emphasize that they had gained market share when they haven’t?

     

    And what is “total market share” anyway? Just sounds like a convenient way to backpedal out of a lie to me. 

    Edited by surreal1272
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    12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    EV market share doesn't matter

    Help us understand why it doesn’t matter? There is market share to be had with each type of vehicle (Pick Up, full size cars, compact CUVs, etc) and the fact is that Tesla is losing market share AND stock value because the competition is creeping up on them. 
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.barrons.com/amp/articles/tesla-stock-market-share-51622722044

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    2 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

    Help us understand why it doesn’t matter? There is market share to be had with each type of vehicle (Pick Up, full size cars, compact CUVs, etc) and the fact is that Tesla is losing market share AND stock value because the competition is creeping up on them. 
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.barrons.com/amp/articles/tesla-stock-market-share-51622722044

    The hey days of Tesla are behind them as more auto makers join the BEV market. Way superior options over Tesla.

    That is not to say that I am not grateful for Tesla pushing the EV market and they do have pretty solid powertrains, but that is where it ends. You can buy Tesla Power Trains and battery packs from various EV parts sellers like EVwest and use them in your own conversions, but the rest of Tesla Auto's seem to have found no market beyond his fanatic fans.

    Amazing the amount of parts from Tesla new, for sale. EV West - Electric Vehicle Parts, Components, EVSE Charging Stations, Electric Car Conversion Kits

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    3 hours ago, David said:

    The hey days of Tesla are behind them as more auto makers join the BEV market.

    It's interesting. Tesla came in to a relative barren & new segment, sold more & more vehicles with no advertising, but spent years and years losing billions doing it. Now, competition is ramping up from all quarters, with Tesla never getting past being a relative boutique automaker and relying on ZE credits for profit.

    Did Tesla actually have 'hey days'? ?

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    All the other car companies are still heavily ICE dependent.  Tesla is still ahead of the game since they are all EV, and all their money is going into EVs, they don't need to split R&D between ICE and EV.  And Tesla still makes the fastest cars, their infotainment and self driving tech is still better than most.  Tesla still outsells Lincoln, Cadillac, Acura and Infiniti in the same price segment, and Tesla does it with a smaller line up.  

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    12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    All the other car companies are still heavily ICE dependent.  Tesla is still ahead of the game since they are all EV, and all their money is going into EVs, they don't need to split R&D between ICE and EV.  And Tesla still makes the fastest cars, their infotainment and self driving tech is still better than most.  Tesla still outsells Lincoln, Cadillac, Acura and Infiniti in the same price segment, and Tesla does it with a smaller line up.  

    That is literally sidestepping ALL the other evidence showing their market share decreasing and their reliability still being a joke. Their infotainment system is a joke too and not reliable either unless your like having to replace that oversized tablet every five years or so. Hope they don’t put that into the “maintenance free” Cybertruck lol!

    https://electrek.co/2020/07/04/tesla-updates-warranty-problematic-media-unit-touchscreen/

     

    https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows-why-automotive-grade-matters

     

    And Tesla has outsold those you mentioned due to there being no competition from those companies in the EV realm. As it has been pointed out to you at least dozen times here, that is obviously changing.

    Edited by surreal1272
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    10 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    All the other car companies are still heavily ICE dependent.  Tesla is still ahead of the game since they are all EV, and all their money is going into EVs, they don't need to split R&D between ICE and EV.  And Tesla still makes the fastest cars, their infotainment and self driving tech is still better than most.  Tesla still outsells Lincoln, Cadillac, Acura and Infiniti in the same price segment, and Tesla does it with a smaller line up.  

    Based on solid financial reviews, seems Tesla and the rest of the EV only companies are hurting. During the change over period, ICE will help finance BEV development and future growth.

    Ford and GM is both a recommended investment of $1,000 by Motley Fool for future growth that will be better than any of the EV startups.

    Tesla lost their biggest customer FCA that was buying Half a Billion a quarter in CO2 credits to offset the Ram, Jeep, Dodge and Chrysler lines. With the recent merge, they are now balanced by all the rest of the world tiny fuel efficient products.

    Hard for any company to replace $500,000,000 million a quarter loss like that and it was the bulk that gave Tesla a Profit. Next Quarter could be a red blood bath at Tesla as Sales are NOT going up as you have stated. Seems lots of people are interested in buying EV's but would rather have an established company with dealerships, service centers and a known history compared to Tesla.

    I do not see Tesla dying now, but as both Ford and GM roll out so many EV options over the next couple of years, this is going to hurt Tesla and we have all the other established auto makers also rolling out EVs.

    End result is Tesla is going to have to really step up and compete otherwise alternative things happen.

    GM and Ford Are Leaving Electric Vehicle Stocks in the Dust | The Motley Fool

    image.png

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    Seems the Hits keep coming to Tesla, per Musk, people who buy Tesla 3 & Y are not using their lumbar supports so bye bye they go but no price cut for the lost feature. Tesla has also removed all the radars in their auto's saying they can do full self driving with cameras only. So another safety feature Tesla talked about having Radar and Cameras in the past are gone and no you do not pay less.

    Seems for a luxury auto company, they are discontenting their auto's fast and rising prices with the blame on suppliers.

    Tesla Model 3 and Y Lose Adjustable Lumbar Due to "Almost no Usage" (motortrend.com)

    Interesting how as pointed out by the writer, Lumbar is one of those things you usually set and forget as it is not going to be tweaked daily so of course not much reporting in the logs.

    Tesla is starting to equal cheapness! ?

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    WOW, Seems Tesla is going cheaper after downgrading chips and parts in China made auto's but not lower costs in relation to the cheaper parts per China Government. 

    Tesla's Terrible Year In China Is Not Getting Any Better (jalopnik.com)

    Tesla Is in Trouble With the Chinese Government After It Surreptitiously Downgraded the Chips in Some of Its Model 3s (businessinsider.com)

    Now sales have tanked for China almost 50% drop in orders.

    Tesla Motors, Inc. (NASDAQ:TSLA) - Tesla's China Orders Fall Almost 50% in May | Benzinga

    Stock taking the hit.

    Tesla Stock Price Dip After Chinese Sales Decline | HYPEBEAST

    Sales of alternative auto EVs are exploding, seems Tesla has a Problem.

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    58 minutes ago, David said:

    WOW, Seems Tesla is going cheaper after downgrading chips and parts in China made auto's but not lower costs in relation to the cheaper parts per China Government. 

    Tesla's Terrible Year In China Is Not Getting Any Better (jalopnik.com)

    Tesla Is in Trouble With the Chinese Government After It Surreptitiously Downgraded the Chips in Some of Its Model 3s (businessinsider.com)

    Now sales have tanked for China almost 50% drop in orders.

    Tesla Motors, Inc. (NASDAQ:TSLA) - Tesla's China Orders Fall Almost 50% in May | Benzinga

    Stock taking the hit.

    Tesla Stock Price Dip After Chinese Sales Decline | HYPEBEAST

    Sales of alternative auto EVs are exploding, seems Tesla has a Problem.

    It’s called reality setting in on the upstart. 

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    3 hours ago, David said:

    Seems the Hits keep coming to Tesla, per Musk, people who buy Tesla 3 & Y are not using their lumbar supports so bye bye they go but no price cut for the lost feature. Tesla has also removed all the radars in their auto's saying they can do full self driving with cameras only. So another safety feature Tesla talked about having Radar and Cameras in the past are gone and no you do not pay less.

    Seems for a luxury auto company, they are discontenting their auto's fast and rising prices with the blame on suppliers.

    Tesla Model 3 and Y Lose Adjustable Lumbar Due to "Almost no Usage" (motortrend.com)

    Interesting how as pointed out by the writer, Lumbar is one of those things you usually set and forget as it is not going to be tweaked daily so of course not much reporting in the logs.

    Tesla is starting to equal cheapness! ?

    Sure they take short cuts, but they do a lot of things well too.  And as I stated, they outsell several luxury brands with no marketing budget.  If you want performance, the V8s can't compete with the electric motors, so Tesla still has a performance advantage over other luxury brands.  And if you just want an EV,  Cadillac, Lincoln, Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Genesis, Land Rover, all don't have an EV.  Tesla still has a lot of advantages in their favor.  It won't be that easy for the competition to just squash them out.  And if it was, why haven't they already?  5 years ago, all those luxury brands outsold Tesla, now Tesla outsells them all except maybe Lexus.

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    • The quickest production RPO V8 is quicker than the quickest Tesla to date. 'course; it's basically a production drag car... but it's quicker.
    • Tesla's not really a luxury brand... other than the pricing.
    • Tesla has raised pricing 5 times this year and has issued 2 recalls last month alone. They don't have the quality where it should be.
    • Tesla does still have advantages, such as huge presence in the BE segment... but I'm reminded right here about how just talking about BE market share is a "horrible" metric, so by extension so too must it be horrible to say 'Tesla has BE's but Cadillac, genesis, etc do not'. Are we going to use the motive power as a 'wall' or not?

    Lyriq looks really good from what they've shown so far... but we have to wait until the production unit is revealed. But to date, it blows the Model X out of the water as a luxury vehicle.

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    14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Sure they take short cuts, but they do a lot of things well too.  And as I stated, they outsell several luxury brands with no marketing budget.  If you want performance, the V8s can't compete with the electric motors, so Tesla still has a performance advantage over other luxury brands.  And if you just want an EV,  Cadillac, Lincoln, Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Genesis, Land Rover, all don't have an EV.  Tesla still has a lot of advantages in their favor.  It won't be that easy for the competition to just squash them out.  And if it was, why haven't they already?  5 years ago, all those luxury brands outsold Tesla, now Tesla outsells them all except maybe Lexus.

    What a crock. You wouldn’t accept these shortcuts from GM or Ford but give a free pass to Tesla. You also, once again, skip everything else said here to openly promote more half truths and made scenarios. Why haven’t they already, you said? Umm, take a look around. They are all working on that now hence them losing market share. Are you even paying actual attention to what’s going here and what’s being said? Screw five years ago. This is today and today Tesla is facing actual competition from damn near everyone else while taking short cuts with their products. Surely that kind of nonsense won’t hurt them. Just ask 1970-2010 GM. 

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    26 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    And as I stated, they outsell several luxury brands with no marketing budget.

    What’s funny is, yes, you did state that and mentioned about every luxury make except Benz, which Tesla also outsells. Interesting that you failed to mention that. 
     

    Next time just post the Tesla and Daimler Pom poms and remove all doubt here. 

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    14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Sure they take short cuts, but they do a lot of things well too.  And as I stated, they outsell several luxury brands with no marketing budget.  If you want performance, the V8s can't compete with the electric motors, so Tesla still has a performance advantage over other luxury brands.  And if you just want an EV,  Cadillac, Lincoln, Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Genesis, Land Rover, all don't have an EV.  Tesla still has a lot of advantages in their favor.  It won't be that easy for the competition to just squash them out.  And if it was, why haven't they already?  5 years ago, all those luxury brands outsold Tesla, now Tesla outsells them all except maybe Lexus.

    So then the fact that ATP for Tesla is Higher than the Germans is acceptable especially since they outdo Mercedes-Benz.

    How Tesla's Deliveries Compare With Luxury Rivals Audi, BMW, Mercedes (forbes.com)

    Quoting from this 2019 story: Tesla delivered 145k Model 3s in 2018, luxury market leader Mercedes delivered 2.4 million vehicles, with BMW delivering 2.1 million. Model 3 average selling prices are higher compared to Audi, BMW, and Mercedes

    So then your saying that a auto company that sells 145K auto's is better than one that sells 2.4 million?

    So then the EQS is truly not as good as the Plaid Tesla S.

    SO then HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN Global LOST Market Share, Dropping Stock price and pretty much every market looking at other auto companies BEVs in comparison to Tesla if they are the Golden standard?

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    15 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

    What’s funny is, yes, you did state that and mentioned about every luxury make except Benz, which Tesla also outsells. Interesting that you failed to mention that. 
     

    Next time just post the Tesla and Daimler Pom poms and remove all doubt here. 

    Worldwide Mercedes is #1 is luxury sales, they are like 5-1 over Tesla.

    But I was more referencing the American market since Cadillac, Acura, Infiniti, Lincoln, etc don't have much of a global footprint outside US and China.

    In 2020 Tesla sold 292,902 units.  Mercedes cars sold 274,916, and Mercedes-Benz Vans sold 50,999.   BMW sold 278,732 units.  Tesla only sold 195,000 in 2019, and yes in 2020 they were the #1 selling luxury brand in the USA.  So I am not sure where all this competition is hurting them.  More EV's from Ford, VW, or anyone else, is just moving sales from gas to electric, it isn't stealing Tesla sales and taking them down.

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    1 hour ago, David said:

    So then the fact that ATP for Tesla is Higher than the Germans is acceptable especially since they outdo Mercedes-Benz.

    How Tesla's Deliveries Compare With Luxury Rivals Audi, BMW, Mercedes (forbes.com)

    Quoting from this 2019 story: Tesla delivered 145k Model 3s in 2018, luxury market leader Mercedes delivered 2.4 million vehicles, with BMW delivering 2.1 million. Model 3 average selling prices are higher compared to Audi, BMW, and Mercedes

    So then your saying that a auto company that sells 145K auto's is better than one that sells 2.4 million?

    So then the EQS is truly not as good as the Plaid Tesla S.

    SO then HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN Global LOST Market Share, Dropping Stock price and pretty much every market looking at other auto companies BEVs in comparison to Tesla if they are the Golden standard?

    I never said Tesla was a Gold standard.  I am stating they came from nothing 10 years ago to be the #1 selling luxury brand in the USA, and worldwide they did about 500k units last year, and that is better than a lot of other luxury brands did, and Tesla only has 4 models too, imagine if they had 6-7 models they could sell even more. 

    Tesla isn't going to be an easy brand to beat, especially when it comes to EV's.  

    And I don't know if the the EQS to Model S comparison is even that fair, the EQS might have a starting price nearly $50k higher and it is a foot longer.  So the EQE is probably a better competitor, which we should know specs on that by fall since it goes on sale in 2022.

    16 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Tesla stock is down 50% off it's 52-wk high.

    And still 6 times more valuable than GM and 9 times more valuable than Ford as of today.  So probably not yet time to sound the panic alarm.

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    • A 50% decline absolutely is time for alarm. And that's not over 5 years, it's over 6 months.
    • Looking at stock market cap vs. total valuation is like looking at BE market share vs. all vehicle's market share.

    • Tesla, like all brands short of the top tier, are a mixed bag. One can slot the Model S in the 'luxury' category, but the Model Y & 3 don't fit the bill. Not enough options, colors, features, no unique detailing, starting price in the upper $30's.... they're not luxury. And the Model 3 is the only thing keeping the lights flickering; "if you eliminate that, Tesla goes under". [<- echoes the argument on the F-Series at Ford]  

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    4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Worldwide Mercedes is #1 is luxury sales, they are like 5-1 over Tesla.

    I would hope the hell so since Tesla has only been selling their cars internationally for a few years. However, they outsell Benz by a considerable margin here so just save the bar moving. 

    4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    More EV's from Ford, VW, or anyone else, is just moving sales from gas to electric, it isn't stealing Tesla sales and taking them down.

    Umm, what? And your proof of this is….

     

    Don’t answer that. Just go back and look at sales in Norway, EVs are the dominant sellers and then look at the fact that their sales have declined since more competition has entered the market there. The same thing will 100% happen here. Bank on it. 

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    4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

     I am stating they came from nothing 10 years ago to be the #1 selling luxury brand in the USA, and worldwide they did about 500k units last year

    They have two models that have “luxury” pricing while two others (not including the Cybertruck vaporware) that start in the 30s. That’s Ford territory. They are not, overall, a luxury brand. They are more boutique than anything else and that’s no longer the case either since they are no longer the only kids on the EV block. Not sure what you’re not getting here but all the fanboy talk from you does not change ALL THE FACTS brought to you that you have conveniently sidestepped. 

    Edited by surreal1272
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    4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    n 2020 Tesla sold 292,902 units.  Mercedes cars sold 274,916, and Mercedes-Benz Vans sold 50,999.

    Sorry but since you stated already that Tesla was a "luxury" brand, you don't get to pad Mercedes numbers in with their OBVIOUS NON-LUXURY vans. Try again.

    Edited by surreal1272
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    4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

     More EV's from Ford, VW, or anyone else, is just moving sales from gas to electric, it isn't stealing Tesla sales and taking them down.

    That statement is false according to the over all auto news segment.

    This is just one of many from 2019 when Audi and Jaguar entered with their first BEVs.

    How Tesla Model X And S Sales Numbers Were Savaged By Audi And Jaguar (NASDAQ:TSLA) | Seeking Alpha

    This is ACTUAL FINANACIAL REVIEW of LOST MARKET SHARE BY TESLA TO FORD here in 2021 and there are more BEV competition coming this year. Rivian is just one example of a superior truck and SUV so far based on the actual auto details.

    Tesla lost market share to the Ford Mustang Mach-E - ValueWalk

    Here is one of the numerous latest reviews which shows Tesla is lagging in the competition at the equal price points.

    image.png

    2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E vs. Audi E-Tron, Jaguar I-Pace and Tesla Model 3 - Roadshow (cnet.com)

    Yes Tesla has areas that are superior to the competition but they also have much that is behind the competition now and Tesla is moving at a Glacial pace to update their auto's where everyone else is moving much faster in refreshing every 2 to 3 years and major updates every 6 to 7 compared to Tesla on an average of 12 years, gonna be 13 by the time the Tesla S Plaid gets out, could even go 14 as Tesla has FAILED at delivering on time.

    Here is a comparison of 2021 models with some interesting facts.

    2021 Tesla Model Y vs. 2021 Jaguar I-Pace Comparison | Kelley Blue Book (kbb.com)

    image.png

    Here is the sum up of the comparison and I have to say the writer / tester hit this center on target!

    QUOTE:

    There’s no escaping that the 2021 Tesla Model Y starts $18,000 lower than the 2021 Jaguar I-Pace, with even the top Performance trim is still more than $5,000 lower. With more room for cargo and passengers, better MPGe, and a significantly longer range, it’s pretty much a walkover.

    Yes, the Jag is less practical. But it’s luxurious, elegant, great to drive, better looking, and its 234 miles of range is more than anyone will need 90-plus percent of the time. Your brain says Tesla, while your heart says Jaguar.

    Here is a current long time Tesla owner who did an indepth drive, 5hrs and traded in his Tesla for a Mach-E and he is very clear as to why!

    Five-Hour Search Converts Longtime Tesla Owner to Mustang Mach-E Owner By Lunchtime | Ford Mustang Mach-E Forum - MachEforum.com

    <snip>
    Chuong added that his Teslas couldn’t match the quality of his new Mach-E.

    “(It’s) so much better than Tesla,” the Ford convert said. “It felt more solid and more comfortable. You can tell it was built by a company that has experience and there’s attention to detail and making sure it was done right.”
    <snip>.”

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    4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

    They have two models that have “luxury” pricing while two others (not including the Cybertruck vaporware) that start in the 30s. That’s Ford territory. They are not, overall, a luxury brand. They are more boutique than anything else and that’s no longer the case either since they are no longer the only kids on the EV block. Not sure what you’re not getting here but all the fanboy talk from you does not change ALL THE FACTS brought to you that you have conveniently sidestepped. 

    3 of Cadillac's 6 vehicles have a base price lower than a Tesla Model 3.  5 of 6 Cadillacs have a base price lower than the base price of a Model Y.  So if Tesla is in Ford pricing, what is Cadillac who is priced below where Tesla is?  And same can be read for Lincoln, Acura, Infiniti, Volvo as well.  Most of their cars start under $50k, the cheapest Model Y you can get is $52k.  And Tesla has a $200,000 car coming with that Roadster, none of those brands I mentioned could even think about a $200k car, Lexus can be thrown in there too, they all know it would flop hard.  And I am not a Tesla fan boy, I am merely pointing out how they are selling a lot of cars are high prices and it is not going to be so easy to knock them off.

    4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

    Sorry but since you stated already that Tesla was a "luxury" brand, you don't get to pad Mercedes numbers in with their OBVIOUS NON-LUXURY vans. Try again.

    That is why I separated the Vans division, Mercedes sold 325,000 units with Vans, and 274,000 without, compared to Tesla's 292,000.  So Tesla beat them last year.  If anyone is going to beat Tesla it will be Mercedes, but Mercedes is always going to operate at a higher price point than Tesla, although that didn't stop Mercedes from outselling all the other luxury brands in the past.

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    4 hours ago, David said:

    That statement is false according to the over all auto news segment.

    This is just one of many from 2019 when Audi and Jaguar entered with their first BEVs.

    How Tesla Model X And S Sales Numbers Were Savaged By Audi And Jaguar (NASDAQ:TSLA) | Seeking Alpha

    This is ACTUAL FINANACIAL REVIEW of LOST MARKET SHARE BY TESLA TO FORD here in 2021 and there are more BEV competition coming this year. Rivian is just one example of a superior truck and SUV so far based on the actual auto details.

    Tesla lost market share to the Ford Mustang Mach-E - ValueWalk

    Here is one of the numerous latest reviews which shows Tesla is lagging in the competition at the equal price points.

    image.png

    2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E vs. Audi E-Tron, Jaguar I-Pace and Tesla Model 3 - Roadshow (cnet.com)

    Yes Tesla has areas that are superior to the competition but they also have much that is behind the competition now and Tesla is moving at a Glacial pace to update their auto's where everyone else is moving much faster in refreshing every 2 to 3 years and major updates every 6 to 7 compared to Tesla on an average of 12 years, gonna be 13 by the time the Tesla S Plaid gets out, could even go 14 as Tesla has FAILED at delivering on time.

    Here is a comparison of 2021 models with some interesting facts.

    2021 Tesla Model Y vs. 2021 Jaguar I-Pace Comparison | Kelley Blue Book (kbb.com)

    image.png

    Here is the sum up of the comparison and I have to say the writer / tester hit this center on target!

    QUOTE:

    There’s no escaping that the 2021 Tesla Model Y starts $18,000 lower than the 2021 Jaguar I-Pace, with even the top Performance trim is still more than $5,000 lower. With more room for cargo and passengers, better MPGe, and a significantly longer range, it’s pretty much a walkover.

    Yes, the Jag is less practical. But it’s luxurious, elegant, great to drive, better looking, and its 234 miles of range is more than anyone will need 90-plus percent of the time. Your brain says Tesla, while your heart says Jaguar.

    Here is a current long time Tesla owner who did an indepth drive, 5hrs and traded in his Tesla for a Mach-E and he is very clear as to why!

    Five-Hour Search Converts Longtime Tesla Owner to Mustang Mach-E Owner By Lunchtime | Ford Mustang Mach-E Forum - MachEforum.com

    <snip>
    Chuong added that his Teslas couldn’t match the quality of his new Mach-E.

    “(It’s) so much better than Tesla,” the Ford convert said. “It felt more solid and more comfortable. You can tell it was built by a company that has experience and there’s attention to detail and making sure it was done right.”
    <snip>.”

    No one is buying the Jaguar i-Pace, that car flopped from day one.  Maybe because it is ugly and overpriced or maybe because it says Jaguar on it, and the Model Y says Tesla on it.  If you buy a Tesla, you are cutting edge, tech savvy and cool, if you buy a Jaguar you have to spend the next however many years explaining to people why you bought a Jaguar.  

    Everyone says the Mach-E is good, but it is also one product, and I know Ford will has more coming.  But it is still a Ford, not a Tesla, and Tesla will always have faster, cooler, more tech loaded, more expensive cars than Ford, so Tesla will be a more aspirational brand.  Ford isn't going to build $150k+ EV's running sub 10 second quarter miles and getting headlines, so Tesla will always have the image advantage.  This is a general problem for a lot of brands is lack of good halo product.  Probably about half the car companies out there lack a good top level halo car that really lifts the brand.

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    • Starting MSRP price is immaterial.

    GMC Sierra starts at $31,795 but the bulk of them sticker for over 50% higher than that, and reach to over 150% of that. 
    Are we going to only talk about the nearly non-existent $31K ones like that's what's out there selling?

    Tesla's ATP is only a few thousand higher than all of General Motors, Ford, Stellantis and VW.

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    Even when I worked for a supplier a few years back that dealt with Tesla, they were a mess. Been told that much has not changed either. They still change suppliers on a dime.  And they barely keep the ones they have in the loop for changes that they do in their models! Elon needs to spend a bit more time running his car company than he does worrying about things like space. They really, really need folks in their company who have real auto company experience-so that they have both communication and proper layouts. It’s why things never really change with them. It’s the logistics that Ford and GM have that is going to whip Tesla hard. Ford is kinda struggling a bit with the E Mach- but they a making progress very quickly-something that Tesla has not really done for years. I too want to see Tesla to do fine- but they really need to get their “poop” together.......

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    Yes, the OEMs definitely know how to build autos at volume...been doing it for decades.  It seems Tesla is still very much a startup when it comes to their mindset...move fast and break things.  

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    8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    That is why I separated the Vans division, Mercedes sold 325,000 units with Vans, and 274,000 without, compared to Tesla's 292,000.

    So why mention vans in the first place? Because you were trying to paint a rosier picture of Mercedes. There was absolutely no reason to mention it otherwise. 
     

    And again, Tesla is not a luxury car company. They are a boutique car company and there is a big difference there. Outside of the fact that they are EVs, Tesla is no more of a “luxury” brand than your average Ford Mustang Mach-E.  Don’t believe me? Show me where any Tesla is more so a luxury car than your average Mercedes. Don’t worry. I’ll wait. 

    of t

    8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    No one is buying the Jaguar i-Pace, that car flopped from day one.  Maybe because it is ugly and overpriced or maybe because it says Jaguar on it, and the Model Y says Tesla on it

    So again, you ignore facts and instead think your opinion trumps that. He posted that to prove that Tesla is, in fact, losing market share yet you completely ignore that FACT to give us your OPINION. See the difference there or are those poms poms blinding you while you read?

    Edited by surreal1272
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    8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Ford isn't going to build $150k+ EV's running sub 10 second quarter miles and getting headlines, so Tesla will always have the image advantage.

    The F-150 Lightning doesn’t have to worry about an “image” problem unlike the vaporware Cybertruck and that is also a fact. The F-150 has a century of trust and a built in buyer already there while the Tesla has to start from scratch with that and hope that there are enough blind Tesla fans to support production of their four wheeled wedge. Btw, who gives two &#036;h&#33;s about the top tier price ($150K) when that applied to only ONE Tesla and especially when it’s reliability is no better than a $3 grand beater car.
     

    You have this grand delusion about Tesla that makes no sense and seems to be absent of facts and logic. You have been shown actual facts detailing the many issues with Tesla and their falling stock and market share. There is literally nothing you can state here that changes those facts. 

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    8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    And Tesla has a $200,000 car coming with that Roadster

    I am sure those five buyers will be very happy with their roadster.

    9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    And I am not a Tesla fan boy, I am merely pointing out how they are selling a lot of cars are high prices and it is not going to be so easy to knock them off.

    And David has shown you, MULTIPLE TIMES, how Tesla is slowly getting knocked off yet you (again) ignored those facts. That is their very definition of being a “fan boy”.

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    9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    3 of Cadillac's 6 vehicles have a base price lower than a Tesla Model 3.  5 of 6 Cadillacs have a base price lower than the base price of a Model Y.  So if Tesla is in Ford pricing, what is Cadillac who is priced below where Tesla is?  And same can be read for Lincoln, Acura, Infiniti, Volvo as well.  Most of their cars start under $50k, the cheapest Model Y you can get is $52k.

    Cadillac ATP-$58K in 2021 (a record for them BTW)

    Tesla ATP-$50K (down $6K from 2020 despite them raising their prices on three or four occasions over the last year).

     

    So basically despite the fact that Tesla has two models above $100K (to the 1 Escalade for Cadillac over that price), Cadillac has a much higher ATP than Tesla which means that MOST of the Teslas sold are FAR south of $100K. What to try that again? 

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    No idea why Tesla would bring out a cheaper car than the $39K Model 3, especially if they are trying to paint a 'luxury brand' image. Plus, it'd torpedo their ATP.

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    53 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    No idea why Tesla would bring out a cheaper car than the $39K Model 3, especially if they are trying to paint a 'luxury brand' image. Plus, it'd torpedo their ATP.

    The irony in both of those statements made by him is quite laughable. You can't be luxury and bargain bin at the same time. That has never worked out well for any brand. I don't like Cadillac having anything priced under $40K (although good luck actually finding one that cheap) while calling themselves a luxury brand. Ever since the Cimmaron days, that has been a problem for them in one fashion or another. Just my personal opinion.

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