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Northstar replacment canceled

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Perhaps GM figures their enthusiast customers will order their Cadillac XTS(?) with an upcoming DOHC V12? Did they discover a way to bring one of their pushrod V8s noise, vibration and harshness levels down to where the next Northstar would have been? If so will this be offered as the base motor for the XTS or will it be the DI V6? If the V6 is the base motor and they do introduce a V12 will they offer a LS V8? Will the V12 with Active Fuel Management get close enough to a V8's fuel economy to make offering it wasteful? What do you guys think?

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I think we'll see an improved version of the current northstar with DI and better VVT.

and that this cancellation isn't really anything to cry over.

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I think we'll see an improved version of the current northstar with DI and better VVT.

and that this cancellation isn't really anything to cry over.

it's the next step, for sure. hopefully they're pushing that up, definitely by '10MY

hopefully it'll be a little surprising with what they do to it.

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GM cancels V-8 program for luxury cars

Richard Truett and

and Jamie LaReau

Automotive News

January 3, 2008 - 12:50 pm ET

DETROIT -- General Motors has canceled plans to build a new advanced double overhead-cam V-8 for its luxury cars.

The move means the future for Cadillac’s V-8 car engines is unclear.

In January 2007, GM said it would invest $300 million in its Tonawanda, N.Y., engine plant for the new V-8 engine, which was scheduled to start production in 2009 and be used in luxury cars.

GM Powertrain spokesman Tom Read said Thursday that the project is dead. That engine likely would have replaced Cadillac’s long-running Northstar V-8, which is scheduled to end production in 2010.

Cadillac could switch to high-powered V-6s in its cars, except for the Corvette-based XLR.

The new direct-injected V-6 in the 2008 CTS develops 304 hp, while the current Northstar V-8 makes 275 hp in the 2008 DTS.

Cadillac spokesman Kevin Smith said, “We’ve really seen the V-6 become the predominant engine in sales on the (2008) STS because it’s so close in power to the V-8.”

He added that the V-6 is about 150 to 200 pounds lighter.

The cancellation of the new V-8 comes just days after President Bush signed into law new fuel economy standards that call for a 40 percent fuel economy improvement by 2020. The new standards start phasing in in 2011.

The Tonawanda plant still gets at least one new engine, an all-new 4.5-liter diesel V-8 engine that starts production in 2010. That engine, GM said earlier, will be used in light pickups and SUVs.

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The following is out of the most recent Automotive News however I don't think the author knows much about what she's talking about, one example would be how she refers to the 275hp Northstar when she should have mentioned the 320hp version in the STS/XLR/SRX. I doubt Kevin Smith's comments she refers to were a direct response to this news as well.

DETROIT -- General Motors has canceled plans to build a new advanced double overhead-cam V-8 for its luxury cars.

The move means the future for Cadillac’s V-8 car engines is unclear.

In January 2007, GM said it would invest $300 million in its Tonawanda, N.Y., engine plant for the new V-8 engine, which was scheduled to start production in 2009 and be used in luxury cars.

GM Powertrain spokesman Tom Read said Thursday that the project is dead. That engine likely would have replaced Cadillac’s long-running Northstar V-8, which is scheduled to end production in 2010.

Cadillac could switch to high-powered V-6s in its cars, except for the Corvette-based XLR.

The new direct-injected V-6 in the 2008 CTS develops 304 hp, while the current Northstar V-8 makes 275 hp in the 2008 DTS.

Cadillac spokesman Kevin Smith said, “We’ve really seen the V-6 become the predominant engine in sales on the (2008) STS because it’s so close in power to the V-8.”

He added that the V-6 is about 150 to 200 pounds lighter.

The cancellation of the new V-8 comes just days after President Bush signed into law new fuel economy standards that call for a 40 percent fuel economy improvement by 2020. The new standards start phasing in in 2011.

The Tonawanda plant still gets at least one new engine, an all-new 4.5-liter diesel V-8 engine that starts production in 2010. That engine, GM said earlier, will be used in light pickups and SUVs.

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I have an idea: forced induction, DI, VVT V6 engines.

you've been sniffin that Ford glue too long. :AH-HA_wink:

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Probably a forward thinking decision with the impending CAFE. The big V-6s make are more efficient at making the big hp numbers, and with turbo and supercharging, its even better!

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LOKI

A little off topic - but is that you're 455 Buick GS? That thing is absolutely AWESOME! One of my favorite GM muscle cars ever! I'd love to drive one. Great color too.

As far as the news about the new Cadillac V8, I think everyone is prematurely freaking out - a lot can change in 2 years. As long as GM doesn't go too crazy and cancel the rear drive Camaro and G8, I won't lose too much sleep.

Edited by gmcbob
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GM has a habit of multiple groups performing overlapping development/research. Perhaps something won out that makes the current NS still the best bet? Maybe tests pairing it up with the developing hybrid systems came out on top?

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GM better come out with a DOHC V-8 to beat the Germans with, otherwise it will be full of fail and stupid. :rolleyes:

Sounds like they don't intend for Cadillac to play in the big leagues beyond the CTS..

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Sounds like they don't intend for Cadillac to play in the big leagues beyond the CTS..

F*** GM if that's the case, Toyota becoming numero uno would be a far preferable outcome then. :banghead::hissyfit:

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WTF guys?! They canceled one V8 in development.... the Northstar isn't going away! With just DI and VVT on the table there is a lot of life left in the Northstar. Pair it up with a 2-mode hybrid and great things will happen.

quit acting like GM just stole your lollypop.

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WTF guys?! They canceled one V8 in development.... the Northstar isn't going away! With just DI and VVT on the table there is a lot of life left in the Northstar. Pair it up with a 2-mode hybrid and great things will happen.

quit acting like GM just stole your lollypop.

They haven't done anything to update the Northstar in quite a while, though... and who says DI and VVT is going to happen for the Northstar?

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They haven't done anything to update the Northstar in quite a while, though... and who says DI and VVT is going to happen for the Northstar?

3 years ago?

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5 comments.

1) I really hate that GM probably wasted a lot of money on this and isn't going to use it (Something they do way too often)

2) The current Northstar stopped being a "stellar" engine a few years ago... Is it good? Sure! Is it STELLAR (Like it used to be) Hell no.

3) If indeed Cadillac is now being planned without V8's then the division, as well as it's renaissance, is a joke and they might as well just start cloning Chevrolets (a la Ford and Lincoln).

4) If GM has in fact given up on Cadillac competing on the global stage, then nothing ever changed within the company in the first place and I will enjoy watching them crash and burn sooner rather than later.

5) If this is the future of GM (overreacting and just plain giving up -- all the while on the verge of greatness, as always) then it is a sad day and I would think the company deserves the shallow grave it gets.

I personally hope VenSeattle is right. Isn't this what happened with the UV8? Another program (Maybe this one) won out over it and therefore it was discontinued.

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM
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5 comments.

1) I really hate that GM probably wasted a lot of money on this and isn't going to use it (Something they do way too often)

2) The current Northstar stopped being a "stellar" engine a few years ago... Is it good? Sure! Is it STELLAR (Like it used to be) Hell no.

3) If indeed Cadillac is now being planned without V8's then the division, as well as it's renaissance, is a joke and they might as well just start cloning Chevrolets (a la Ford and Lincoln).

4) If GM has in fact given up on Cadillac competing on the global stage, then nothing ever changed within the company in the first place and I will enjoy watching them crash and burn sooner rather than later.

5) If this is the future of GM (overreacting and just plain giving up -- all the while on the verge of greatness, as always) then it is a sad day and I would think the company deserves the shallow grave it gets.

I personally hope VenSeattle is right. Isn't this what happened with the UV8? Another program (Maybe this one) won out over it and therefore it was discontinued.

Agreed on all points, except the engine. There's no way that an improved Northstar can be better than the UV8 would have been. The UV8 was most likely new from the ground up. With today's technology that wasn't around when the Northstar was made, I would have to think that the UV8 would be better than any Northstar that isn't at least 95% new, which is basically just a new engine anyways.

I could really care less about GM if all of this that sounds like it will happen happens. GME can go suck on Toyota's balls. Note to GME: We don't give a rat's ass about mainstream European cars (see VW). I want to offer an early congratulations to Carl Peter Forster for turning away many people who thought they'd buy GM for life. I also want to thank him for the future demise of a company that was returning to greatness. Now, GM will be nothing more than a combination of Hyundais and VWs. We have no one else to thank but him.

When I go to buy a new car, I have a bad feeling it won't be a GM. I might not even have a GM on my list if the time is too far down the road. All of this makes me wonder if the Corvette is even safe.

What a bunch of idiots that run GME. They may have an idea of how to run a company in Europe, but they obviously have no idea how to run a company in the US or around the globe. If Carl Peter Forster does indeed get the control he wants, it could be a sad day for a lot of us.

*Note that I am not intending to say that those running GME don't know what they're doing in Europe, but I don't think making the American market like the European market (which it appears may be what they're going for) is a good idea.

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Both Cadillac and GM's top brass know their full-size buying customers waaay to well these days to not offer at least a V-8 in their new flagship sedan. If we could assume that a V-12 based on two DI V6s was on its way for this car and that it could achieve non CAFE penalizing emissions based on it's (forgiving) LWB footprint what would it's price be and what powertrain variations would be offered below this? Would the cost of a reworked DOHC Northstar be worthwhile for a lower priced less publicized version? How would a DI LS motor with Active Fuel Management be received buy their customers? If using a LS V-8 allows them to offer this car for under $70K loaded I'd say the world would still buy them up. Though don't get me wrong, I'd still much prefer a DOHC.

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Agreed on all points, except the engine. There's no way that an improved Northstar can be better than the UV8 would have been. The UV8 was most likely new from the ground up. With today's technology that wasn't around when the Northstar was made, I would have to think that the UV8 would be better than any Northstar that isn't at least 95% new, which is basically just a new engine anyways.

I could really care less about GM if all of this that sounds like it will happen happens. GME can go suck on Toyota's balls. Note to GME: We don't give a rat's ass about mainstream European cars (see VW). I want to offer an early congratulations to Carl Peter Forster for turning away many people who thought they'd buy GM for life. I also want to thank him for the future demise of a company that was returning to greatness. Now, GM will be nothing more than a combination of Hyundais and VWs. We have no one else to thank but him.

When I go to buy a new car, I have a bad feeling it won't be a GM. I might not even have a GM on my list if the time is too far down the road. All of this makes me wonder if the Corvette is even safe.

What a bunch of idiots that run GME. They may have an idea of how to run a company in Europe, but they obviously have no idea how to run a company in the US or around the globe. If Carl Peter Forster does indeed get the control he wants, it will be a sad day for a lot of us.

I don't get it... Since when has this become such an invasion of GME and how did they supposedly get so much power?!?!

It seems that yesterday we were GMNA running the company and then all of the sudden today, GME seems to be the tail that's wagging the dog?

What gives?

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I don't get it... Since when has this become such an invasion of GME and how did they supposedly get so much power?!?!

It seems that yesterday we were GMNA running the company and then all of the sudden today, GME seems to be the tail that's wagging the dog?

What gives?

Think globally. GME has no use for Zeta. GMNA would like to have some Zeta cars. Holden would like Zeta cars (obviously). China uses Zeta cars. GME does not. I highly doubt that GMNA, Holden, and China were pushing for Zeta's demise, since they all use or had plans to use Zeta a lot. GME had no such plans it would seem, and therefore would be the only part of GM that wouldn't want to see development money put into Zeta.

Perhaps I went a bit overboard in my post, but my general feeling right now is GME is the only part of GM that wouldn't want Zeta, and it seems a lot of things are starting to fall GME's way. CPF would be to blame, it would seem.

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Where is all this ill-feeling toward GME coming from? It has nothing to do with them. This is all CAFE and the general industry trend. Cadillac doesn't have the global volume to support a V8 program whose volume is falling every day. Toyota can spend on a V8 prgram because A) it has money to burn, and B) it uses the same block in the LandCruiser, Sequoia and Tundra. BMW has much greater global volume to support niche V8 production. Audi uses the same design for everything from 4–10 cylinder engines (meaning 90 deg V6 and V10 engines when that is not the optimal angle); Mercedes new V8 shares it's design with the higher-volume V6. GM's V6 however is 60 deg, perfect for a V6 but unsuitable for a V8, and an ecotec-based V8 doesn't save as much money in tooling costs. I suspect Cadillac will get the 6.2 L DOHC small block instead.

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Where is all this ill-feeling toward GME coming from? It has nothing to do with them. This is all CAFE and the general industry trend. Cadillac doesn't have the global volume to support a V8 program whose volume is falling every day. Toyota can spend on a V8 prgram because A) it has money to burn, and B) it uses the same block in the LandCruiser, Sequoia and Tundra. BMW has much greater global volume to support niche V8 production. Audi uses the same design for everything from 4–10 cylinder engines (meaning 90 deg V6 and V10 engines when that is not the optimal angle); Mercedes new V8 shares it's design with the higher-volume V6. GM's V6 however is 60 deg, perfect for a V6 but unsuitable for a V8, and an ecotec-based V8 doesn't save as much money in tooling costs. I suspect Cadillac will get the 6.2 L DOHC small block instead.

Isn't small block engine ohv design? With cam in block? So it can be small block DOHC

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