Chazman

6th gen Camaro wish list.

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Is it too early to talk about a 6th gen Camaro? Might as well, between CAFE and Zeta production decisions, I have a feeling the 5th gen may not be with us for very long.

I'll start.

The 6th gen (if there even is one), would need to be smaller and lighter than the 5th. It will need to be in order to help GM with their CAFE goals, plus a tidier package would be a good thing for a pony car.

It will also need to share it's architecture with a family of CAFE friendly vehicles, in order to make it economically viable. Alpha is the only architecture which comes to mind.

Although a next gen Camaro would need to be heavily invested in I4, turbo I4, and V6 powertrains, I sure hope a V8 is at least available.

Edited by Chazman
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I know you've been dying to start this discussion Charlie, so I'll play. :AH-HA_wink:

It should be safer to do it here than at CZ28.

Here's my thinking:

The biggest hurdle to having a V8 6th gen would be weight/structure required VS. the need to maximize the fuel economy of the 4s and 6s on the same platform. So, starting with the concept of flexibility used by the zeta with the front subframe being all of a piece, couldn't two versions of Alpha be designed? One to maximize economy, and one to handle more potent powertrains? If the thinking is modular enough, it seems like the proper approach. Following this scenario, the versatility of alpha could be expanded while many other components could be shared between the two versions. This would offer the chance to create some very interesting cars beyond Camaro as well. An Alpha Pontac comes quickly to mind.

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For perspective, how much do we know about where,exactly, all the weight in zeta comes from?

What can be avoided?

What can't?

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It should be safer to do it here than at CZ28.

Yeah, I'll say!

I had an interesting conversation with someone about this. The description I got when suggesting an Alpha, 6th gen Camaro, was - "feasible". Re-engineering to accept a V8 is also feasible, although that's not where the program is at, currently.

But getting back to a family of Alphas. I see them as a family of smaller premium cars, fun to drive, nicely equipped. An opportunity for GM to literally seize a whole segment. I don't see Chrysler coming up with something like this. Ford either, unless the"Huntsman" global RWD program is smaller than we think.

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To make this work in a car that can geuinely claim the Camaro heritage, I think we'd need to accept the use of more expensive materials at the outset.

A good design philosophy might include the parameter of reducing the gadgetry prevalent in so many cars today. Before everyone screetches about this, stop and think for a moment about where Camaro has traditionally landed in the Chevy lineup. It was never the most feature-laden model in the showroom, it had a more focused mission. I'd like to see a 6th gen return to a somewhat more spartan state of equiptment to help in limiting weight. This approach might also help to offset the cost of using lighter, more expensive, materials. I'm not talking about a COPO-style stripper (though I'd love to see that done even as a showcar), rather one with a more sane level of equiptment justified by performance and price.

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For perspective, how much do we know about where,exactly, all the weight in zeta comes from?

What can be avoided?

What can't?

I'm not sure about "exactly". But even before Zeta was canceled the first time, weight was always a big problem. Everything on Zeta was going over it's weight targets. I've heard the structure was needlessly heavy as well. And, let's face it, it's a large sedan architecture. That won't save any poundage.

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I'm not sure about "exactly". But even before Zeta was canceled the first time, weight was always a big problem. Everything on Zeta was going over it's weight targets. I've heard the structure was needlessly heavy as well. And, let's face it, it's a large sedan architecture. That won't save any poundage.

I'm just attempting to understand why zeta is so heavy. It seems counter-intuitive.

Call it an attempt to gain perspective.

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To make this work in a car that can geuinely claim the Camaro heritage, I think we'd need to accept the use of more expensive materials at the outset.

That there is a given. And that sort of fits in with Lutz's comments about cars costing more. You can bet the ranch, that future cars will incorporate LOTS of high strength steel, aluminum, titanium and carbon fiber. Expect every automaker to be trying to drop 200-300 pounds on their next gen cars.

You can also design in weight loss -that is - once it become a prime priority. And perhaps someone with more familiarity than me on this, this can jump in and help me. Engine cradles for example. Engine cradles aid in ease of assembly on the factory line. My understand however, is that they add weight. Look at the Corvette. It's not light by accident.

Anyway, for my money...I'd rather have a 400 hp, 3,400 lbs Camaro, than a 525 hp, 4,100 Camaro.

Edited by Chazman
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That there is a given. And that sort of fits in with Lutz's comments about cars costing more. You can bet the ranch, that future cars will incorporate LOTS of high stregth steel, aluminum, titanium and carbon fiber. Expect every automaker to be trying to drop 200-300 pounds on their next gen cars.

You can also design in weight loss -that is once it become a prime priority. And perhaps someone with more familiarity than me on this, this can jump in and help me. Engine cradles for example. Engine cradles aid in ease of assembly on the factory line. My understand however, is that they add weight. Look at the Corvette. It's not light by accident.

Now we are getting to the meat of the issue. An engine cradle, or front subframe, has to be a significant weight target. However, the flexibility to move from high economy to high performance almost demands that there be one for the ability to meet both goals on the same basic architecture. Unless Alpha could be designed to have either a front subframe or a unibody structure depending on application. Just thinking out loud here.

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I read an interesting article a couple of years ago, on how Mazda thought about weight every step of the way when designing the Miata. The Miata of course, is several hundred pounds lighter than the Solstice. It was just a bunch of common sense stuff, which had nothing to do with super expensive, exotic materials.

I'll try to find it later....

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I read an interesting article a couple of years ago, on how Mazda thought about weight every step of the way when designing the Miata. The Miata of course, is several hundred pounds lighter than the Solstice. It was just a bunch of common sense stuff, which had nothing to do with super expensive, exotic materials.

I'll try to find it later....

I look forward to that.

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I read an interesting article a couple of years ago, on how Mazda thought about weight every step of the way when designing the Miata. The Miata of course, is several hundred pounds lighter than the Solstice. It was just a bunch of common sense stuff, which had nothing to do with super expensive, exotic materials.

I'll try to find it later....

Not really a good source of information, but on Wikipedia there's a list of parts from the Solstice. The current gen is just thrown together from GM's parts bin:

The Solstice shares major components with nearly every GM division:

* The rear axle and differential are from the Sigma-based Cadillac CTS

* The interior storage bin is from the Cadillac XLR

* The passenger's side airbag, steering column, and exterior and interior door handles are from the Chevrolet Cobalt

* The backup lights are from the GMC Envoy

* The heating, ventilating, and air conditioning modules are from the Hummer H3

* The front fog lamp assembly is from the Pontiac Grand Prix

* The steering wheel is from the Pontiac Torrent, Pontiac G5, Chevrolet Corvette, Chevrolet Malibu

* The 2.4 L Ecotec engine is shared with the Saturn ION, Pontiac G6, Chevrolet Cobalt, and Chevrolet HHR

* The five-speed manual transmission is from the Hummer H3, GMC Canyon, and Chevrolet Colorado

* The five-speed automatic is from the Cadillac CTS, STS, and SRX

* The side view mirrors and AC vents are from the Fiat Barchetta

* The seat frames are from the previous generation Opel Corsa

I guess that explains why the Solstice looks like it's an afterthought.

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This one will have to do, until I find the one I mentioned.

Mazda's "gram strategy":

Mazda MX-5 - Successful Diet Programme

Lighter than its predecessor

Larger, stiffer and better equipped – but only 10 kg heavier

Painstaking “gram strategy” applied to all components of the cult roadster

Extensive use of high-strength steels, aluminium and composite materials

Almost all new automobiles today are in danger of being heavier than their predecessors, due to ever-stricter safety standards and higher customer demands for comfort features. Mazda wanted to reverse this trend – and was successful.

Delivering a lightweight roadster had highest priority during the development of the new Mazda MX-5. As a result, the third-generation version of the cult roadster is only 10 kg heavier than its predecessor (depending on version).

This modest weight gain is achieved despite the third-generation MX-5 being the first to have side airbags, despite having larger wheels, more powerful engines, an extended standard equipment package and a strengthened body shell.

Thanks to the gram strategy diet, the latest two-seater retains the true aura of Mazda’s original nimble, responsive handling roadster, a sports car whose rear-wheel drive transmission and powerful, frugal four-cylinder engines are still sufficient to deliver truly exhilarating performance.

The soft top is still manual like before – so Mazda could avoid the heavier solution here of an electro-hydraulic retractable top.

By weight, 58 percent of all body components of the new Mazda MX-5 are made of ultra high-strength steel or high-strength steel, which save 10 kg. Using aluminium for the bonnet, boot lid, the powerplant frame, front suspension control arms, rear hub carriers, rear brake callipers and rear suspension spring seats reduces weight even further. The front suspension control arms and the hollow front stabilizer alone cut 6.2 kg of unnecessary weight at the front axle.

Revolutionary Welding Process for the Boot Lid

Spot friction welding, a process first employed on the Mazda RX-8, is used for the boot lid of the new Mazda MX-5. This process, for which Mazda has registered 20 patents, joins zinc covered steel and aluminium panelling. Employing a high-speed spinning tool creates enough heat to spot bind these very different materials to one another. The employment of zinc-coated steel sheeting has other advantages as well. Since zinc melts and runs when heated, it removes the oxidation surface that would otherwise remain at the spot the two metals are welded together, and only without this is a truly robust spot weld possible, because it prevents the chance of corrosion. This process also saves large amounts of electric current needed for traditional spot welding, and the boot lid is now 2.5 kg lighter as well.

Other examples of lightweight construction are the intake manifold (- 2.4 kg) and the cylinder head cover (- 1.3 kg), both being made of plastic. Mazda’s gram strategy also dictated mounting the power steering pump and the air conditioning compressor directly to the engine, which did away with the need of a bracket and saved 3.2 kg. The engines themselves are also lighter than the engines of the outgoing model. The block of the 2.0-litre, for instance, is 5.4 kg lighter than the grey cast-iron block of the 1.8-litre power unit of the previous model.

Optimized Rearview Mirror Saves 84 Grams

Even the smallest of details like the rearview mirror contributed to Mazda’s painstaking vehicle diet programme. Simplifying the mirror’s design saved 84 grams.

During the early phases of Mazda MX-5 development, engineers compiled a list of 573 weight-saving ideas. Had they incorporated all of these, the third-generation Mazda MX-5 would have been 43.5 kg lighter than the previous model. While this radical diet was not completely implemented for reasons of long-term durability and/or due to safety considerations, the curb weight target for a new Mazda MX-5 entry-grade version was achieved.

Combined with an ideal 50:50 weight distribution between the front and rear axles and a lower centre of gravity, the lightweight construction principle of the new Mazda MX-5 delivers high levels of driving fun and much improved occupant safety. Through the use of high-strength steel, the body shell is now 47 percent stiffer for torsional [twisting]rigidity and 22 percent for flexural [bending] rigidity – than the second-generation MX-5, an improvement that enhances both driving enjoyment and occupant safety.

Mazda’s Gram Strategy – Main Components that are Lighter on the new Mazda MX-5 versus the Previous Model

High-strength and ultra high-strength steel in the body and floor assembly -10 kg

Aluminium block of the 2.0-litre engine -5.4 kg

Bracketless power steering pump and air conditioning compressor -3.2 kg

Hollow front stabilizer -2.4 kg

High-strength steel seat frames -2.4 kg per seat

Modifications to the steering system -0.6 kg

Plastic intake manifold -2.4 kg

Plastic cylinder head cover -1.3 kg

Aluminium front suspension lower control arms -2.3 kg

Aluminium front suspension upper control arms -1.5 kg

Aluminium rear brake callipers -1.5 kg

Aluminium rear bearing support -1.75 kg

Aluminium boot lid -2.5 kg

New control units for ABS and dynamic stability control -1.1 kg

Lighter cloth top (including hollow B-pillar brace) –200/ -400 grams

New rearview mirror -84 grams

Mazda Invested More Weight in the Following Safety Components

Strengthened A-pillar +5.4 kg

New side-impact protection in the doors +1.0 kg

New bulkhead behind the seats +12.8 kg

Side airbags +2.3 kg

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I'm not sure about "exactly". But even before Zeta was canceled the first time, weight was always a big problem. Everything on Zeta was going over it's weight targets. I've heard the structure was needlessly heavy as well. And, let's face it, it's a large sedan architecture. That won't save any poundage.

Okay, so there's two problems emerging:

Zeta is a sedan platform, so any Camaro based off of it will be heavier than it "could" be

If Alpha won't support a V8, there's no way we get a 6th gen Camaro on Alpha, for the very same reason why you didn't start this thread on CZ28.

Here's some of my patented off-the-wall thinking: The Kappa cars are said to be slated to merge with the Corvette and XLR programs. Obviously, the platform that results will be lightweight, able to support a V8, somewhat affordable, and yield a low-slung sports-car stance, how about moving Camaro there as well? I'd imagine that a Camaro built on this platform would end up costing as much as a "Zeta II" Camaro that bears the extra cost of lightening Zeta. In any event, a non-V8 Alpha Camaro would piss a lot of people off.

As far as other wish-list items go, I'd love to see the 6th gen drenched in 70-73 Camaro DNA.

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Here's some of my patented off-the-wall thinking: The Kappa cars are said to be slated to merge with the Corvette and XLR programs. Obviously, the platform that results will be lightweight, able to support a V8, somewhat affordable, and yield a low-slung sports-car stance, how about moving Camaro there as well? I'd imagine that a Camaro built on this platform would end up costing as much as a "Zeta II" Camaro that bears the extra cost of lightening Zeta. In any event, a non-V8 Alpha Camaro would piss a lot of people off.

Agreed 90%. However, if they make the Corvette a lot smaller like the rumors saying, that still might be the wrong platform. Also, I don't think an Alpha Camaro would upset people, as that should be a little larger than the Kappa II and smaller than the Zeta. We'll see what happens in the next 3 years as far as platforms and rumors go and this develops..

As far as other wish-list items go, I'd love to see the 6th gen drenched in 70-73 Camaro DNA.

6th Gen design based off the '70-73 FTMFW!

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Not really a good source of information, but on Wikipedia there's a list of parts from the Solstice. The current gen is just thrown together from GM's parts bin:

I guess that explains why the Solstice looks like it's an afterthought.

It's amazing how GM created Kappa literally out of thin air, so quickly, with off the shelf parts. But I think alot of people were shocked at it's final weight after hanging all of those parts off the frame rails. All in all, GM did a nice job with Kappa, considering it's time and cost restraints. But the Miata was always the weight goal. And on that it missed in a big way.

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itd be nice if the 6th gen could be dropped to ~3300lbs...

Ahh, like the 4th Gen V6s?

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Give us diesel engines one v-6 and one v-8.

Make the interior contemporary and yet simple. I am not a fan of the "retro" interior. It seems like interior will be a major letdown for Gen 5.

'

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Okay, so there's two problems emerging:

Zeta is a sedan platform, so any Camaro based off of it will be heavier than it "could" be

If Alpha won't support a V8, there's no way we get a 6th gen Camaro on Alpha,

Who's to say what we might find acceptable in a few years. With that said, it's unknown if Alpha can support a V8 or not. Up until now, Alpha was going to share the scene with Zeta, so there was no reason for it to be package protected for a V8. With CAFE, Alpha takes on a more central role, so we'll see.

Oh, and I'm not sure I buy into those rumors that Kappa and Y-car will merge either.

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Oh, and I'm not sure I buy into those rumors that Kappa and Y-car will merge either.

Neither would I, seeing as how there are NG Solstice and Sky models already on track to go on Kappa and NG Corvette and XLR models on Y.

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Give us diesel engines one v-6 and one v-8.

How do we feel about a diesel Camaro? The 4.5 V8 would be abit much, but the 2.9 V6 with 250 hp/406 ftlbs might be interesting.

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How do we feel about a diesel Camaro? The 4.5 V8 would be abit much, but the 2.9 V6 with 250 hp/406 ftlbs might be interesting.

Why not? If GM needs to think outside the box, and reduce the cost of producing the diesel engines, this is a good opportunity.

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