Is the Camaro dead?

[-Camaro-]

Didn't they say they needed to sell 160,000 a year to make a business case for it? Well I can see the Camaro selling well at first, but with gas at $4.30+ I don't exactly seeing it achieving those numbers. Maybe if gas was still at the $3.15 range... What do you guys think? Will gas prices make it go the way of the Gen 4? If Gen 5 fails, then I don't see it ever coming back.

[Camino LS6]

No.

[Sixty8panther]

Ita the Challenger that may have only a shortlived resurection, the Camaro will do well.

[Chevy Nick]

I will be buying one, so there's one sale.

[crash]

yeah plus the Camaro has a lot of fans that would buy the car even if the gas goes as high as $6. Besides they'll be offering a v6 version that am sure it would get good mpg for a RWD car.

[Blake Noble]

Besides they'll be offering a v6 version that am sure it would get good mpg for a RWD car.

Don't forget the 2.0L turbo four beneath that model. :AH-HA_wink:

[crash]

If GM does offer the four cylinder turbo on the camaro idont see the point on offering V6 Camaros I mean the 4 turbo would be making almost as much horsepower as the v6 but it'll get better mpg than the v6.

[Chris_Doane]

There will be an F6 Camaro on Alpha after the Zeta model is phased out.

You might want to watch some of these proclamations you're making lately. Alpha is still years away.

You aren't a product planner for GM...

[Robert Hall]

If GM does offer the four cylinder turbo on the camaro idont see the point on offering V6 Camaros I mean the 4 turbo would be making almost as much horsepower as the v6 but it'll get better mpg than the v6.

V6 will probably be cheaper for fleets, though...(assuming Avis will get some).

[Chazman]

You might want to watch some of these proclamations you're making lately. Alpha is still years away.

You aren't a product planner for GM...

Certainly nothing set in stone, Chris. But there is talk. Serious talk. GM knows that a 2 ton Camaro will not be a very viable product for very long in our current environment. Alpha is the only near term architecture suitable for a sensible Camaro.

I expect a pretty short run for the 5th gen. I hope a 6th gen sees the light of day.

[Chris_Doane]

Oh Im sure there is talk.

It's still several years away and way too early to try and say anything definitive.

[hyperv6]

From the folks I hear from that are involved the Carmaro is alive and well at the present.

There are no plans for a 6th gen at this point because they have not even finished the 5ht gen so we need to give them a chance!

Secondly the Camaro was going to be pushed with a quality V6 program from the start and they have a V6 car that will get Highway MPG near 30 MPG andf over 20 MPG City while performing like a 4th Gen SS.

The present Camaro also will be sold world wide as I stated long ago and just anounced this week IT will be in left and right hand drive so this car will be a world product and also support sales.

THe simple fact is once a 6th gen program is looked at The Alpha or other new platform will take it's place. The V6 may grow a turbo as the performance line just as the Mustang GT will get a Turbo V6 in the future. Any new performance cars are going to be just as the truck in adapt or die mode. IF the Camaro is as well recieved as we hope it should live on.

But as withg anything right now this all could change quickly. The MFG are expecting change too as the slow economy is not just a Bush problem but a world problem as prices are spiking elsewhere too. With companies struggling world wide the landscape can really be aultered in 5 years.

So until you hear different from GM the Camaro is alive and well and if anything happens expect it to adapt to the market.

The bottom line right now is to stop calling it a muscle car or a pony car as it is a performance car and will be competing on a world market in the future.

Edited June 8, 2008 by hyperv6

[ehaase]

I am sure the Camaro will do extremely well for the first year. After that will depend upon the economy and gasoline prices.

[Blake Noble]

In my defense, I would not make a statement here if I did not hear it from reputable sources first. However, I deleted my post so that there would not be any off-topic deviation between myself and any other members.

[Chazman]

There are no plans for a 6th gen at this point because they have not even finished the 5ht gen so we need to give them a chance!

I depends on what you mean by plans.

For the first time in maybe three decades, a Camaro appropriate architecture is being developed and defined. Simultaneously, GM knows that the 5th gen needs to be replaced ASAP. Hardly ever do the planets line up like that for Camaro.

[Chazman]

Oh Im sure there is talk.

It's still several years away and way too early to try and say anything definitive.

Yeah, it's a ways out. 3 or 4 years at the earliest. The only definitive part is that they are talking.

Edited June 8, 2008 by Chazman

[Chazman]

I am sure the Camaro will do extremely well for the first year. After that will depend upon the economy and gasoline prices.

I'm sure it will too. After that though......

[Camino LS6]

I fully expect a 6th gen on Alpha, the rub comes in with a V8 not likely to be offered. I guess that is one of the 5th gen's jobs, to pave the way toward acceptance of a V6 as the top powerplant with Alpha.

I don't much like that idea, but I can see the whys of it.

[Chazman]

I fully expect a 6th gen on Alpha, the rub comes in with a V8 not likely to be offered.

I think that part is still being debated.

Give me a tidy, 3500 lbs Z/28 ,with a 400-ish hp, 5.0L Gen V or Gen VI smallblock - and I'll be happy. You don't need supercharged, gas swilling, big motors, when you don't have 4100 pounds to move around.

[Camino LS6]

I think that part is still being debated.

Give me a tidy, 3500 lbs Z/28 ,with a 400-ish hp, 5.0L Gen V or Gen VI smallblock - and I'll be happy. You don't need supercharged, gas swilling, big motors, when you don't have 4100 pounds to move around.

I hope that's how it turns out, Charlie - but I have my doubts.

I could see a "special" run of upfit 6th gens running V8s, but as a production line product I see huge resistance to making Alpha V8 capable.

[crash]

I don't know about you guys but a Camaro that doesn't offers a V8 doesn't really sounds like a Camaro to me

[ehaase]

If Alpha is meant to compete with the BMW 3 series and considering the M3 has a V8, I would think Cadillac would strongly consider a very limited edition high performance V8 Alpha to compete with the M3, making a limited edition V8 Alpha Camaro possible also but probably very expensive. By 2015, most cars within the means of middle class buyers will surely be 4 cylinders, probably 2.0L or less, and by 2020 most cars will be hybrid.

[Camino LS6]

I feel the same way Crash, but things look to be heading that way.

ehasse: Bleak outlook. I don't think things will be quite that bad.

[Chazman]

I don't know about you guys but a Camaro that doesn't offers a V8 doesn't really sounds like a Camaro to me

Oh, I hear ya. But a 4100 pound car, doesn't much sound like a Camaro to me either.

Edited June 8, 2008 by Chazman

[Camino LS6]

Is that 4100 pound number confirmed?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I think that part is still being debated.

Give me a tidy, 3500 lbs Z/28 ,with a 400-ish hp, 5.0L Gen V or Gen VI smallblock - and I'll be happy. You don't need supercharged, gas swilling, big motors, when you don't have 4100 pounds to move around.

I agree...

The option should be there.

But alas, I'm afraid the FUN of the car enthusiast is over thanks to everyone being bored and worrying about what everyone else does/purchases/consumes.

Maybe I'll buy a suburban and drive it everyday... That way I could maximize my use of resources and my production of CO2... It's BRILLIANT!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

If Alpha is meant to compete with the BMW 3 series and considering the M3 has a V8, I would think Cadillac would strongly consider a very limited edition high performance V8 Alpha to compete with the M3, making a limited edition V8 Alpha Camaro possible also but probably very expensive. By 2015, most cars within the means of middle class buyers will surely be 4 cylinders, probably 2.0L or less, and by 2020 most cars will be hybrid.

And... Why exactly couldn't they be V8 hybrids?

See, all of the doomsday people have this idea that we can't innovate and that things HAVE to be a certain way with NO OTHER OPTIONS.

To me, that's a defeatist attitude.

[hyperv6]

I depends on what you mean by plans.

For the first time in maybe three decades, a Camaro appropriate architecture is being developed and defined. Simultaneously, GM knows that the 5th gen needs to be replaced ASAP. Hardly ever do the planets line up like that for Camaro.

Well what I mean by plans is that the people developing the present Camaro have not even finished what they are working on and have no time for 6th Camaro yet. Fbodfather has pointed this out several times as has a few of the other key program people.

As for platform planning I am sure the Camaro may listed under a new platform. But at this point the key cars for the Alpha have not been presented in a business case let alone approved.

The future for the Camaro lies more in the hands of the Mustang and future RWD from Japan and Korea. If they continue plans GM will move the Camaro from just being considered for a platform to being a develped model.

As Chis has smartly pointed out it is very early in this game and the present car will have a 5-6 year min run.

And you had better now get used to the fact the new Camaro will be a V6 with a Turbo. The V8 wiull be a rarity reserved for a limited number of cars and trucks. Even most of the 1/2 ton trucks will be a 6 cylinder at best. With the V6 engines producing great amounts of power with much better fuel mileage there is less of a need for the V8 to put down some outstanding performance numbers.

The future of performance is more Lotus like. It will be smaller and lighter. In some ways it will give us better braking and handling we could have ever imagined.

Either way it is early in the game and with the speed and confidence GM and Ford is killing SUV and Truck sales everything is on the table and not fully planned out yet.

Hell if the wrong people get into Washington the next election they can almost dictate what we get and for many of us they will give us what we want. You may be upset about losing the V8, you run a real risk of limits of power being the next target fromt he people who what to care for you from cradel to grave.

[Blake Noble]

I would have to say that if we do see an Alpha F6 Camaro after the Zeta F5 model runs its course, it should not come as a shock or surprise to anyone at these forums.

Why? Consider the future competition coming from Nissan and Toyota/Subaru for one. Nissan will have it's Silva successor out in an upcoming frame of time. Toyota/Subaru will have their RWD coupe available for purchase in the upcoming future as well. Ford will not give up Mustang sales, either. There is something of a business case here for GM to keep producing a contender in this segment.

Edited June 8, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Blake Noble]

As for the death of the V8 engine, I am perhaps not lamenting as much as others are. Yes, I do find it appalling that people will virtually no longer have this powertrain option in the future, thusly limiting choice in a rather fascist manner. And I do like the V8 engine myself and would buy my next vehicle with one if I could afford to run it. However, I know that if I ever want a V8 engine in any rear-drive product I choose to buy, the aftermarket will still be building these engines and I can install one myself.

This is an element of the future of the V8 engine I think many people are overlooking. While you may not be able to buy many cars in the future with a V8 stock, you will be able to buy a V8 engine from an aftermarket outlet such as GM Performance Parts and install the engine yourself. (If the EPA and CAFE regulated aftermarket outlets like GM Performance Parts, they would not be still making big-block engines for purchase now would they? Just keep this in mind.)

Edited June 8, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Oracle of Delphi]

As Chis has smartly pointed out it is very early in this game and the present car will have a 5-6 year min run.

I wouldn't hold my breath on a 5-6 year min run, especially if gas hits 5 or 6 bucks a gallon. The GM Board seems to be in a foul mood these days, and as they say, nothing in this life is guaranteed, so if you want one, I would buy one ASAP.

[Blake Noble]

[...] Nothing in this life is guaranteed, so if you want one, I would buy one ASAP.

Advice I plan on trying my best to act upon.

[crash]

but who knows maybe GM would come up with a version of its two mode hybrid currently used in the big SUV's for the camaro I think it would return great mpg's numbers on the Camaro since it would be lighter and more aerodimamic than the big SUV's.

[hyperv6]

As for the death of the V8 engine, I am perhaps not lamenting as much as others are. Yes, I do find it appalling that people will virtually no longer have this powertrain option in the future, thusly limiting choice in a rather fascist manner. And I do like the V8 engine myself and would buy my next vehicle with one if I could afford to run it. However, I know that if I ever want a V8 engine in any rear-drive product I choose to buy, the aftermarket will still be building these engines and I can install one myself.

This is an element of the future of the V8 engine I think many people are overlooking. While you may not be able to buy many cars in the future with a V8 stock, you will be able to buy a V8 engine from an aftermarket outlet such as GM Performance Parts and install the engine yourself. (If the EPA and CAFE regulated aftermarket outlets like GM Performance Parts, they would not be still making big-block engines for purchase now would they? Just keep this in mind.)

Nobody over looked this as this is a different deal all together. Hell I can buy and build a complete 1969 big block Camaro and not use one 1969 part in it. Also I could build a complete 1957 Chevy too.

I think all of us here are keeping to the topic of factory built cars.

Todays engines are so advanced and well tuned that the cylinder count for a street driven cars is becoming more relitive. In the past you had to rely on Cubic Inches for power but today that is not always the case anymore.

I am sure there was someone lamenting the passing of the use of Liberty Engines in Autos in the early 30's when the rather comparitive small flat head Ford came to the market.

Change is never easy nor it is alway all bad. In the past we have had some great and better cars come from rules and restriction that we all thought would put us back on horses.

There will no doubt be some pain here with some low powered cars and higher prices but we also will still see some performance cars that will give numbers you would not believe. And if all else fails and you just have to have a V8 build a kit car.

[Robert Hall]

As for the death of the V8 engine, I am perhaps not lamenting as much as others are. Yes, I do find it appalling that people will virtually no longer have this powertrain option in the future, thusly limiting choice in a rather fascist manner. And I do like the V8 engine myself and would buy my next vehicle with one if I could afford to run it. However, I know that if I ever want a V8 engine in any rear-drive product I choose to buy, the aftermarket will still be building these engines and I can install one myself.

This is an element of the future of the V8 engine I think many people are overlooking. While you may not be able to buy many cars in the future with a V8 stock, you will be able to buy a V8 engine from an aftermarket outlet such as GM Performance Parts and install the engine yourself. (If the EPA and CAFE regulated aftermarket outlets like GM Performance Parts, they would not be still making big-block engines for purchase now would they? Just keep this in mind.)

That wouldn't be practical in the Real World <tm> (how many people would buy a new car and swap the engine out? 0.000001 percent?) . Not to mention doing so it would void the warranty and probably wouldn't pass emissions tests...

[Blake Noble]

That wouldn't be practical in the Real World <tm> (how many people would buy a new car and swap the engine out? 0.000001 percent?) . Not to mention doing so it would void the warranty and probably wouldn't pass emissions tests...

I would do it if it meant that I could get the car I really wanted. As for emissions tests, yes, you can make these engines pass those tests. If they couldn't, then why do I see restored big-block Chevelles out in California? As for a warranty, I think GM Performance Parts does offer some form of warranty on their crate engines, and if not, you could always buy one.

If it meant I could get the car that I really wanted, then I would do it and find a way to make it work.

Edited June 9, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[Chazman]

But at this point the key cars for the Alpha have not been presented in a business case let alone approved.

I think at least one or two Alphas are quite abit further along than that.

[Chazman]

As Chis has smartly pointed out it is very early in this game and the present car will have a 5-6 year min run.

Honestly, I just don't see the 5th gen lasting that long. It's just too overweight and will probably be CAFE negative very early into it's product cycle. Even if they end up going with an available Ecotec.

[hyperv6]

Honestly, I just don't see the 5th gen lasting that long. It's just too overweight and will probably be CAFE negative very early into it's product cycle. Even if they end up going with an available Ecotec.

There are no approved Alpha production programs at this point but that is not to say there are any programs in the works. But none are a Camaro as of yet.

Also the 6th Gen will be around lonmg enough that a 6th can be develped. And base on the present car it may take 3-5 years min if they were working on it now.

Scott Settlemire said already if the Camaro is pulled from the market again it will never come back this was the last shot. So if they are planning a 6th I would expect the 5th to be around long enough to fill in till the 6th was ready.

Edited June 9, 2008 by hyperv6

[CSpec]

I think people are being too optimistic with the Camaro sales numbers... unless you want a piece of crap like the Mustang, the Camaro won't be all that cheap, and sales will reflect that.

[Chazman]

There are no approved Alpha production programs at this point but that is not to say there are any programs in the works. But none are a Camaro as of yet.

Also the 6th Gen will be around lonmg enough that a 6th can be develped. And base on the present car it may take 3-5 years min if they were working on it now.

Scott Settlemire said already if the Camaro is pulled from the market again it will never come back this was the last shot. So if they are planning a 6th I would expect the 5th to be around long enough to fill in till the 6th was ready.

Well, I think that you are ageeing with me? No?

Anyway, I'm agreeing with PCS on this one. If you want a 5th gen, buy it soon. Personally, eventhough I've ben waiting a LOOOOOOOOOOONG time to buy a new Camaro, I can't stomach a 2 ton version. In fact, at that weight, I consider it obscene. But I hope you buy one, and hope everyone else who wants one, buys one too.

[hyperv6]

I think people are being too optimistic with the Camaro sales numbers... unless you want a piece of crap like the Mustang, the Camaro won't be all that cheap, and sales will reflect that.

No but it was made clear by the Camaro team you will get much more for your money.

Add this to the point it will be very close price point of the Mustang too it will be the better value!

Keep in mind this Chevy has already priced the Malibu, and HHR as some of the best bargins and good quality cars on the market.

[Chazman]

No but it was made clear by the Camaro team you will get much more for your money.

Maybe that's the problem. I was hoping for about 500 pounds less for my money.

[hyperv6]

Maybe that's the problem. I was hoping for about 500 pounds less for my money.

I can say what the V6 mileage is or the weight of the Car but from what I was told most will not be disapointed. I was told this from the same person who has driven the car. Both are seen as non issue for the cars future acceptance.

Also watch but I feel we will get the full intro at Woodward in August. Everything is pointing to that being the full disclosure.

Indy in September will not be the first showing of the production car or info, it will happen in Detroit before that and my huch is Woodward.........Bank on it.

[Chazman]

I can say what the V6 mileage is or the weight of the Car but from what I was told most will not be disapointed. I was told this from the same person who has driven the car. Both are seen as non issue for the cars future acceptance.

Yeah, I was told the same thing, perhaps even by the same person.

I hope it sells very well. But it's looking more and more like a car that I won't personally buy. And that saddens me, because it's a car I've been looking forward to buying for a long time.

Edited June 9, 2008 by Chazman

[Chicagoland]

It will get rich car collectors and 'first in town' buyers. But the casual fans who like to look at 'hot cars' and kick tires will not buy, 'until used ones are cheap enough'. Will bring in some showroom traffic for maybe a year, then what? How about a 'Volt Camaro'?

[hyperv6]

I had a G8 ST on my list but I need more than two seats as we already have one two seater in a family of three. Besides I may still replace the wife GP with a G8 Sedan later.

I also had a Camaro V6 on my list as I knew about the 300+ V6 for a long time now. I don't need 425 HP for a daily driver. But I refuse to pay the added cost till sales die down 6 month to a year after intro.

A few weeks ago I drovew a HHR SS just for giggles and came away very impresses. It rode very well and was very tossable and fun to drive. They have improved the interior with the two tone sort interior so it does not look so drab. To top it off it hauls thing like the Sonoma I am replacing. WIth gas going up the mileage will be an improvement over my present truck.

I may opt for the HHR SS for my daily beater and get the wife the Camaro late vs the G8 since we do not have to deal with car seats anymore. I showed her the size the Camaro will be and shew was shocked as it is smaller than she thought. From the photo's many people think it is as big as the Challanger.

I expect the Camaro to have 2 very strong years even with the price of gas. Keep in mind to many this is not the main vehicle and will be a third car to most. The week end play toy. Also many will be purchased and stored away for speculation.

GM has a lot of color changes and feature changes planned to keep this car fresh. They have not even tipped thier hand at all that is planned. They expected this to be a tough car to sell as Coupes are hard to move and for such a small clupe market there are now many choices.

Compared to the trucks , SUV's and past Camaro's the V6 will feel like a economy car to many.

[hyperv6]

It will get rich car collectors and 'first in town' buyers. But the casual fans who like to look at 'hot cars' and kick tires will not buy, 'until used ones are cheap enough'. Will bring in some showroom traffic for maybe a year, then what? How about a 'Volt Camaro'?

The first part of your statment is true for the first six months but this will be a must be seen in car for many. They styling is like a fashion statement compared to many of the ugly boxes out there right now.

The V6 Convertible will be very popular with women in their 20's-40's.

the bottom line is the appeal of this car is going to be much wider than the 4th gen. That will make a differance.

Thank God they did the V6 package right in a time it will even be more important than before.

[Camino LS6]

If it were not for the G8 ST the new Camaro would be my next new car.

[regfootball]

Maybe that's the problem. I was hoping for about 500 pounds less for my money.

mustang. cheaper, less weight.