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Is THIS Camaro right for our time?


  

43 members have voted

  1. 1. Is THIS Camaro right for our time?

    • Yes.
      30
    • No.
      13
    • I don't know
      0


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I say yes.

I would never buy it... but that's always been the case, gas prices have not changed that.

Gas prices also will not change the mind of somebody who has been wanting a Camaro since 2003.

A Hummer is an easy target for environmentalists to slag. Reasonable sports cars should be OK (Corvette, Camaro, etc).

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Yes it is.

1. It is a nice piece at the end of an era where horsepower rules, but the start of an era where MPG rules. It still gets good gas mileage for its power and weight while maintaining great performance in comparison to the competition.

2. It shows that GM still has car guys who want to please the customer's need for speed.

3. It proves that there still is an automaker (albeit not the only one) who puts their compassion into the design, details, and every part of the vehicle they make instead of simply making a machine on wheels like so many manufacturers do.

4. This car will set GM up nicely for a smaller, lighter, less powerful, more efficient, just as quick 6th Gen Camaro and then they can use the PR to say, "Hey, we care more than you think and we know how to build a damn good car. Look how much this car has changed and it still has all the dynamics and excitement of the 5th Gen and more!"

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Wrong car for the wrong time. (visions of 2004 - 2006 GTO, dancing in my head) This car should have been built on the Alpha platform. Sales will be moderate initially, then they will sink like a rock.

:::looking around for any current cars using the Alpha platform:::

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That's my point.

So, then, they should have pushed it back until a couple of years until the platform was completely designed and ironed, according to you.

Or it should have been a 2-door Insignia, according to you.

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Wrong car for the wrong time. (visions of 2004 - 2006 GTO, dancing in my head) This car should have been built on the Alpha platform. Sales will be moderate initially, then they will sink like a rock.

wow. i agree with PCS.

i tend to agree more with the editorial comment in MotorTrend that suggested a new era in American Muscle cars.

the Camaro is a throw back and will sell in the first year (when is that again) and then sales will wither and dry up like a pail of water in the Arizona sun.

the times, they are a changing and the Camaro would have been great in 2005. not so in 2009.

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Wrong car for the wrong time. (visions of 2004 - 2006 GTO, dancing in my head) This car should have been built on the Alpha platform. Sales will be moderate initially, then they will sink like a rock.

wow. i agree with PCS.

i tend to agree more with the editorial comment in MotorTrend that suggested a new era in American Muscle cars.

the Camaro is a throw back and will sell in the first year (when is that again) and then sales will wither and dry up like a pail of water in the Arizona sun.

the times, they are a changing and the Camaro would have been great in 2005. not so in 2009.

I agree--this isn't sustainable at all. If this car were lighter, and could be had with some turbo 4s, then it would at least be a contender in the coupe market...but honestly it's just way too big even for that. The V8 is priced way too low, and the 6 doesn't get good enough fuel economy. Wrong car for the time.

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wow. i agree with PCS.

i tend to agree more with the editorial comment in MotorTrend that suggested a new era in American Muscle cars.

the Camaro is a throw back and will sell in the first year (when is that again) and then sales will wither and dry up like a pail of water in the Arizona sun.

the times, they are a changing and the Camaro would have been great in 2005. not so in 2009.

I agree. It took them too long to get this car to market. It will sell OK initially to fans who have been waiting to get a new Camaro. After that it will have to sell to the general market. It's just the wrong type car in this environment unfortunately.

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I agree--this isn't sustainable at all. If this car were lighter, and could be had with some turbo 4s, then it would at least be a contender in the coupe market...but honestly it's just way too big even for that. The V8 is priced way too low, and the 6 doesn't get good enough fuel economy. Wrong car for the time.

I agree. I hope this car does well, but I just don't see it having the legs for that now. Being the sole remaining Zeta at Oshawa is not good news for it either.

I hope it does well enough that the Camaro brand will survive.......

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I agree--this isn't sustainable at all. If this car were lighter, and could be had with some turbo 4s, then it would at least be a contender in the coupe market...but honestly it's just way too big even for that. The V8 is priced way too low, and the 6 doesn't get good enough fuel economy. Wrong car for the time.

Um, didn't they already say it will get a turbo 4? Unless I'm just behind on things...

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My hatered of the b-pillar being what it is, this IS the Camaro we were promised, the

GM muscle car guys have been drooling at mouth the for 33 months now & years now

and it looks like i a in the minority and I can admit that while I AM disgusted by the

B-pilllar most potential buyers will still scoope it up an grin from ear to ear for many

years to come!!!

Long Live GM Muscle! :spin:

Of course I voted YES, although this product & a Pontiac equivalent (GTO? Firebird?)

should have hit the streets in 2003, same as there shoulf have been a Zeta sedan

coupe & wagon for Chevy, Cadillac, Pontiac, Buick & Oldmobile like M.Y. 1996.5!!!

But I do not have a time machine and enough of you hate me for being broken

record so I'm going to stop myself here....

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Of course I voted YES, although this product & a Pontiac equivalent (GTO? Firebird?)

should have hit the streets in 2003, same as there shoulf have been a Zeta sedan

coupe & wagon for Chevy, Cadillac, Pontiac, Buick & Oldmobile like M.Y. 1996.5!!!

The G8 and Camaro would have been smash hits had they debuted in 2004. I think the Camaro will be a more pleasant car to own than the Mustang.

Yeah, I voted "yes." Better late than never.

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Wrong car for the wrong time. (visions of 2004 - 2006 GTO, dancing in my head) This car should have been built on the Alpha platform. Sales will be moderate initially, then they will sink like a rock.

My concern is that if this car doesn't perform in sales, some within GM will argue that the Camaro is not worth replacing.

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If handled correctly, the 5th gen Camaro could be a nice transition to a lighter Alpha 6th gen. Everything depends on how well the V6 model does. It does seem that it'll end up being a very pleasant vehicle to own all around and may attract customers that might never have previously considered a Camaro. GM needs to give plenty of marketing $$$ to push the V6 model (we know the V8 will be pushed). If they do that and people lose their prejudices they might have formed against the Camaro from past generations, the decision to make a 6th gen should be easy.

Also, running changes for the sake of increased MPG are very possible. Tweaks to the DI system in the 3.6L can be done with a software flash, and dual-mode hybrid systems, E85, the DI 2.0L, and DoD are all still on the shelf.

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It's already a done deal. I wouldn't worry to much. Cadillac needs the economies scale that Chevy offers for Alpha.

Cadillac?

As if that brand really has the power to help GM along.

I'm so sick of Cadillac being given way too much importance in future plans.

Oh, and the 5th gen will sell quite nicely.

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Cadillac?

As if that brand really has the power to help GM along.

I'm so sick of Cadillac being given way too much importance in future plans.

Oh, and the 5th gen will sell quite nicely.

Well, Cadillac is 2nd only to Chevy in importance...Chevy's the volume brand, Cadillac is trying to grow into being a competitive, world class luxury brand..

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Well, Cadillac is 2nd only to Chevy in importance...Chevy's the volume brand, Cadillac is trying to grow into being a competitive, world class luxury brand..

Keyword: trying

Cadillac is just the prima dona division. It costs too much and returns too little.

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Nowhere near as much as the brands it steals resources from.

Pontiac, in particular, has been shortchanged because Cadillac is someone's pet.

That disgusts me.

Unfortunately, Pontiac is most likely the next to go the way of Oldsmobile... :(

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Keyword: trying

Cadillac is just the prima dona division. It costs too much and returns too little.

Pfffft. Cadillacs are all very high margins. That's all that matters. Oh, and despite close to 30 years of poorly considered product, they STILL have a good brand image.

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If you factor out the fleet sales, it probably isn't, though.

That may not be true any longer with the GP gone. At any rate, it doesn't share the basement with Caddy as far as sales go. And Saab, and Hummer, and Saturn.

See my point?

Caddy is the spoiled brat of the GM family.

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Pfffft. Cadillacs are all very high margins. That's all that matters. Oh, and despite close to 30 years of poorly considered product, they STILL have a good brand image.

Then Cadillac should build _one_ car a year and sell it for a trillion dollars. Some oil sheik will buy it for the exclusivity.

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Nowhere near as much as the brands it steals resources from.

Pontiac, in particular, has been shortchanged because Cadillac is someone's pet.

That disgusts me.

In these Inter GM family disputes, GME will always back Cadillac and vice versa. Pontiac can offer nothing GME wants or needs.

Edited by Pontiac Custom-S
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I don't think the Camaro is not the right car for now. I think it will sell about as well as the 4th gen did.

It's too late. It should have come out in 2005. I'm sorry, but designing cars is old hat now... Nothing except the Volt drivetrain are new at GM. Even considering all the federal regulations, GM should be able to get a car from car show prototype to show room in 18-24 months. Anything less, and managers should start getting fired.

It's too lonely. GM did the whole Zeta thing half hearted. The multiple personality psycho known as GM management should have made a decision and run with it. A series of cars, like a Buick and Chevy in addition to a NA G8... *gasp* a Firebird, would have spread out development dollars. Lutz says it would have cost $2 billion to make a Firebird... BS. _If_ I got a Camaro, I'd build my own conversion... in my garage... and it would likely cost me less than $20K to develop and a few thousand per car in parts to mass produce.

Without huge sales, there will be no 6th gen on Alpha... its the way GM's mentality works. "Try, but no use in being a fool about it".

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Without huge sales, there will be no 6th gen on Alpha... its the way GM's mentality works.

That's contrary to PCS's assertion.

Anyway, let's hope that's not the case, since I just can't see "huge sales" with this car. In fact, I can't even see GM reaching their stated sales goal of 100,000 units.

It's amazing to me that GM was so tied to Zeta for the Camaro. I mean, even on the cancelled GMX284 program, everyone knew that it was grossly overweight. Everyone knew it! And yet when work started again, GM went down the same road with this Camaro. I mean, WTF! What would have Pete Estes or John Delorean or Arkus Duntov or Vince Piggins have said if they were around to see a two ton Camaro? I suspect the sh!t would have hit the fan - big time!

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Cadillac?

As if that brand really has the power to help GM along.

I'm so sick of Cadillac being given way too much importance in future plans.

Oh, and the 5th gen will sell quite nicely.

Maybe, since they're dumbing down Cadillac products, it will be the new Pontiac and Saab can be the new GM luxury division

:D

It {Cadillac} had a lot of potential, though.

**Fixed

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM
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Nowhere near as much as the brands it steals resources from.

Pontiac, in particular, has been shortchanged because Cadillac is someone's pet.

That disgusts me.

I don't really think it's that as much as it's GM realizing: "We're screwed in america, we must grow our sales outside of america" and an established luxury division that can create a price premium is much more appealing from a business standpoint than a 'performance' division that has never left NA.

I just don't see what the big deal is with Pontiac though. GM gutted Saturn and turned them into Opel. Why not do the same with Pontiac, except us Holden? Who cares if it's limited volume? That's what Pontiac needs to be anyway if it is going to build a performance image.

As for the dealers... Well, if they want volume GM should bring the fliers for a Saturn franchise to them... Supposedly, Saturn needs reach, Pontiac needs to build an image and the dealers need volume. VOILA! Problems solved!

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That may not be true any longer with the GP gone. At any rate, it doesn't share the basement with Caddy as far as sales go. And Saab, and Hummer, and Saturn.

See my point?

Caddy is the spoiled brat of the GM family.

I think Caddy should be left alone. If any true (READ: Not Saab, it should go first) GM division is cut, it needs to be Saturn.

GME can just deal with Opel becoming Pontiac. For GM to expand Saturn they're going to have to establish the brand and then move it upmarket. For Pontiac, they just have to move it upmarket.

I fear that GM is basically exchanging damaged brands for 'clean sheet' brands. The hierarchy used to be 1) Chevrolet 2) Pontiac 3) Oldsmobile 4) Buick 5) Cadillac. Unfortunately, the new hierarchy appears to be 1) Chevrolet 2) Saturn (to replace damaged Pontiac, Chevrolet will 'expand' as PCS says to satisfy what few Pontiac 'rednecks' are left. Saturn takes on the new image of sport) 3) Saab (Saab is big on tech, especially green tech now, so it will become the GM technology division instead of Olds) 4) Buick (Only because China is saving it's ass right now) and 5) Cadillac

As far as GMC... Who the hell knows? (Does GM even know?) GM will pick Chevrolet over GMC for volume trucks, so either GMC goes the way of Pontiac or GMC matures into the Buick truck counterpart.

I think it's all a croc of :bs: but I'm not in charge, so whatever.

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In these Inter GM family disputes, GME will always back Cadillac and vice versa. Pontiac can offer nothing GME wants or needs.

GM is a global company... Pontiac is not a global division... And therein lies the problem.

Maybe the Holden link up was Pontiac's future global position (And still could be) but now with that scene getting kicked by gas prices, who knows.

The problem with Pontiac is that it offers nothing Chevrolet couldn't. But with the right management at GM and some creativity, it could become viable again.

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Without huge sales, there will be no 6th gen on Alpha... its the way GM's mentality works. "Try, but no use in being a fool about it".

Nah...

"Camaro" has too much brand equity and identity for GM to cancel the program now. Not to mention, the program is global.

There will be a 6th gen. The question is; will it be worth even looking at?

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Which reflects the stupidity of the decision makers. Pontiac is the third best selling GM division behind Chevy and GMC.

That didn't stop them with Oldsmobile...

One would hope they're not that stupid now, but it is GM after all.

To kill a volume division, that has the potential to create A LOT more volume (for better or worse) in a market where you need volume to sustain the company is pure ignorance IMO.

But, it is GM after all.

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Nah...

"Camaro" has too much brand equity and identity for GM to cancel the program now. Not to mention, the program is global.

There will be a 6th gen. The question is; will it be worth even looking at?

I wouldn't mind if they just ripped off the 5th gen.

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alpha caddy needs chevy volume.

alpha camaro coupe adds volume.

what about alpha Impala sedan?????

as for buick vs pontiac, i suspect buick a well done buick can command a higher margin than a pontiac, not to mention buick has a market (china) outside america whereas pontiac barely has a market IN america. on that note, has a NG G6 even been confirmed yet? cause the solstice is getting stale every day that passes with a NG kappa on hold, the G8 can't survive long term in this market of high gas prices and will only be imported as long as it makes financial sense and that just leaves aveo and cobalt clones (and a matrix clone).

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I don't think I ever used the term "Redneck", being brought up in Texas, I find that term offensive.

No. 'Redneck' was my word.

I put it in quotes to emphasize a point about how society views Pontiac enthusiasts. I also have major issues with the word and I should've made it more clear that I wasn't directly quoting you.

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I don't really think it's that as much as it's GM realizing: "We're screwed in america, we must grow our sales outside of america" and an established luxury division that can create a price premium is much more appealing from a business standpoint than a 'performance' division that has never left NA.

I just don't see what the big deal is with Pontiac though. GM gutted Saturn and turned them into Opel. Why not do the same with Pontiac, except us Holden? Who cares if it's limited volume? That's what Pontiac needs to be anyway if it is going to build a performance image.

Not that useful, though...Holden only has the Commodore and Statesman/Caprice lines as unique...the rest of Holden's line is FWD Daewoo crud and Opel rebadges... we have the Commodore as the G8, and the Statesman/Caprice is more of luxury sedan suitable to Buick.

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That's contrary to PCS's assertion.

It's because it's my opinion. GM likes to build "niche" vehicles... then just as they develop a following, or they get good, they get canceled. This just pisses off the enthusiasts. Fiero, Reatta, Allante, Aurora, SSR, Bonneville GXP. The logic is always, "Well, we weren't selling 80K a year, so it was a failure... even though the original plan was to only sell half as much. Cue the Sky and Solstice to join this list.

Anyway, let's hope that's not the case, since I just can't see "huge sales" with this car. In fact, I can't even see GM reaching their stated sales goal of 100,000 units.

Sure it will... over 7 or 8 years. As much as I like the retro styling, how will it look in 2018... when the original first-gen F-bod only stuck around for 3 years... well, almost 4 if you count the extended '69 strike year.

It's amazing to me that GM was so tied to Zeta for the Camaro. I mean, even on the cancelled GMX284 program, everyone knew that it was grossly overweight. Everyone knew it! And yet when work started again, GM went down the same road with this Camaro. I mean, WTF! What would have Pete Estes or John Delorean or Arkus Duntov or Vince Piggins have said if they were around to see a two ton Camaro? I suspect the sh!t would have hit the fan - big time!

I hope all these guys haunt and taunt the GM management every night in their sleep. THEY knew how to run a car company.

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I agree with what Chazman has been saying for a few years now: the Camaro is too big and too heavy. Sure it's cool, but I can't see it having much longevity after the fans buy one. It would be fine if GM thought of it as a niche product like the GTO, but no way in hell will it sell 100k units.

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Sure it will... over 7 or 8 years. As much as I like the retro styling, how will it look in 2018... when the original first-gen F-bod only stuck around for 3 years... well, almost 4 if you count the extended '69 strike year.

I hope all these guys haunt and taunt the GM management every night in their sleep. THEY knew how to run a car company.

Honestly, I've been so overexposed to this car, it already seems old to me. I'll be going to Indy Friday with about 40-50 people from my Camaro club, so we'll see if the production version still has any visual interest for me. We'll see.

Anyways, I think this car's position will be increasingly more untenable as the years click by. Forget the V8, the V6 will be CAFE negative on the first day of production. By 2011 it'll be 5 MPG below CAFE, by 2012, 7 MPG below. All this while the Camaro is the lone Zeta at the Oshawa line, which was designed for 400,000 units.

I just hope GM can squeeze a decent 2 - 3 years out of this car, before a more appropriate 6th gen comes.

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I wouldn't mind if they just ripped off the 5th gen.

Me neither. I think t would actually look more agressive and sportier if you could stretch that sheetmetal over smaller, sportier bones (Alpha), rather than the large sedan substructure (like high cowl for example) like Zeta.

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That may not be true any longer with the GP gone. At any rate, it doesn't share the basement with Caddy as far as sales go. And Saab, and Hummer, and Saturn.

See my point?

Caddy is the spoiled brat of the GM family.

You are seriously misguided here Camino.....Cadillac is truly GM's only hope of attracting a premium customer.....Caddy is VITAL to the future success of General Motors. Even Saab can't truly appeal to traditional premium customers like Cadillac can (or will....or is trying....)

Today, REGARDLESS of sales volumes, Cadillac is WAY more relevant to General Motors than Pontiac (or Buick, or Saab, or Hummer.)

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You are seriously misguided here Camino.....Cadillac is truly GM's only hope of attracting a premium customer.....Caddy is VITAL to the future success of General Motors. Even Saab can't truly appeal to traditional premium customers like Cadillac can (or will....or is trying....)

Today, REGARDLESS of sales volumes, Cadillac is WAY more relevant to General Motors than Pontiac (or Buick, or Saab, or Hummer.)

I disagree.

And I point to your own post.

The "(or will...or is trying...)" part especially.

Don't get me wrong, Caddy has its place. But, it gets in the way of way too many other things way too often.

It is a sacred cow.

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I disagree.

And I point to your own post.

The "(or will...or is trying...)" part especially.

Don't get me wrong, Caddy has its place. But, it gets in the way of way too many other things way too often.

It is a sacred cow.

Cadillac is a critical bookend in the GM portfolio. The other bookend is Chevy.

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Oh BTW, I just got back from Indy yesterday, and got to see the production intent Camaro and listen to the Camaro Team's presentations.

I got the feeling that this team really made the effort to make this car the best that they could, given what they were required to start with - which was a large, two ton, sedan architecture. This car could have been a grand slam if GM would have given them a more appropriate architecture for it...

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There were none available at the time, however if it was my decision, I would have waited for Alpha to be available and that would have speeded up the development of Alpha by leaps and bounds.

I agree. Even if it would have delayed it's intro by a year or two.

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The Camaro is the best we will have anytime soon for this class. TI will do well for the time it has but it will not have the overly long life other Gens have had.

When work started on this car it was perfect for that time but who knew gas was going up and Wall Street was going to tank back then. Timing and luck have not been in GM's corner of late.

The fact is this is a good car and GM did do the right thing in putting a lot of pressure on the V6 car. If they has put 90% of their work into the V8 like the past this whole thing would have been a mess. The V6 will save this and let it live till a Alpha is ready.

This is the best Camaro for this time as it is the only Camaro your going to get for a few years since Alpha is a ways out yet.

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This is the best Camaro for this time as it is the only Camaro your going to get for a few years since Alpha is a ways out yet.

Well,it's certainly the only Camaro we're gonna get.

For the times though? I just can't see it being very successful. And I think in their heart of hearts, GM might knows that too. I just hope work starts soon on a replacement - more right for the times. Or we can kiss the Camaro brand goodbye.

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I admire the proportions and the stance of the upcoming Camaro over the aesthetics of the Corvette. It was love at first sight as I saw it in the flesh for the first time in the Doraville assembly plant in April 2006. Saw/heard them drive it back onto the hauler after its 24 hour stay in our place. Great car.

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I admire the proportions and the stance of the upcoming Camaro over the aesthetics of the Corvette. It was love at first sight as I saw it in the flesh for the first time in the Doraville assembly plant in April 2006. Saw/heard them drive it back onto the hauler after its 24 hour stay in our place. Great car.

Sure, lots of people loved the proportions and stance of the CONCEPT, includung me. The question is, how many people will dig down into their pockets and actually buy the PRODUCTION version.

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Sure, lots of people loved the proportions and stance of the CONCEPT, includung me. The question is, how many people will dig down into their pockets and actually buy the PRODUCTION version.

I don't know. The void left when the Z28s and Trans Ams bowed out, for just those 2 models, was around 85 thousand per year. I think they (GM) just need have faith in what they're doing, execute it properly and grow the market gradually. I've seen the sales projections ranging from 55-100,000 units per year. I think that the damn thing is eminently doable, done right.

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I don't know. The void left when the Z28s and Trans Ams bowed out, for just those 2 models, was around 85 thousand per year. I think they (GM) just need have faith in what they're doing, execute it properly and grow the market gradually. I've seen the sales projections ranging from 55-100,000 units per year. I think that the damn thing is eminently doable, done right.

Off the top of my head, TOTAL 2002 F-car production was around 35K.

The numbers being thrown around as Camaro's sales goal have always been in the 100,000 range.

I hope it sells. But as one of the "faithful" who has waited years for this car - all I can say is that this iteration is not for me.

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