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Chazman

Some clarification....

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Lets put it like this so the debate is settled:

evok and chazman have contacts/sources/information that specifically state that the car is NOT being marked as either an 07 or 08. Chazman has actually said that no work was going on in NA on the car. I think evok has stated that there is no approved program right now. Is this right guys?

Now there is another camp, GuionM specifically, who has lead people to believe, based on sources, that Holden is running full steam ahead with the Camaro based upon their sources.

That being said either evok and Chaz aren't gettting the full story, the work that is going on is not an official program and so those who should know about it don't, or the car is not being worked on at the moment.

Now can we call this argument quits?

Saw this in the locked thread and just wanted to clarify since my name was brought up.

The bulk of vehicle platform work on Camaro is being done in Australia right now, but there is still work - design, powertrain, etc., etc., being done here in NA. There are no secret Australian programs. It would be silly for GM to even work that way.

Are there a bunch of Camaros running around down under? Probably not. Just guessing, but they may be at the point where mules are finally being built. And when I say mules, I don't mean real Camaros. I mean validation work being done on donor VE Commodores (or whatever), for example.

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Wasn't it said that the Camaro's suspension was already developed and tested on the VE Commodore?

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Wasn't it said that the Camaro's suspension was already developed and tested on the VE Commodore?

AFAIK they will use the same suspension systems.

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Lets put it like this so the debate is settled:

evok and chazman have contacts/sources/information that specifically state that the car is NOT being marked as either an 07 or 08. Chazman has actually said that no work was going on in NA on the car. I think evok has stated that there is no approved program right now. Is this right guys?

Now there is another camp, GuionM specifically, who has lead people to believe, based on sources, that Holden is running full steam ahead with the Camaro based upon their sources.

That being said either evok and Chaz aren't gettting the full story, the work that is going on is not an official program and so those who should know about it don't, or the car is not being worked on at the moment.

Now can we call this argument quits?

Saw this in the locked thread and just wanted to clarify since my name was brought up.

The bulk of vehicle platform work on Camaro is being done in Australia right now, but there is still work - design, powertrain, etc., etc., being done here in NA. There are no secret Australian programs. It would be silly for GM to even work that way.

Are there a bunch of Camaros running around down under? Probably not. Just guessing, but they may be at the point where mules are finally being built. And when I say mules, I don't mean real Camaros. I mean validation work being done on donor VE Commodores (or whatever), for example.

I put you in that post because you and evok are in the longer timeframe camp together. I assumed that you were recieving at least some of the same information. No hard feelings I hope. :)

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I put you in that post because you and evok are in the longer timeframe camp together.  I assumed that you were recieving at least some of the same information.  No hard feelings I hope. :)

Oh no , not at all.

And as far as I can tell, evok and I have come to our conclusions independently.

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Oh BTW 91z, how can I format my avatar to look like your sig?

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b152/91z...arosigsmall.jpg

Here is the URL of a smaller one I made for GMI. I think you can tell the board to use that url and it will automatically shrink it to fit, I don't know for sure though.

And Charlie the name is Casey.

Edit: I just tried it and it works for me.

Edited by 91z4me

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I'd like some feedback on this notion of mine, without any sniping at each other about accuracy. This is heavily based on a feeling I get that GM has some tricks up its sleeve regarding Camaro. I realize that some well-informed members here have reason to believe that this scenario is impossible and it may well be.

Never the less:

This is what I think we'll see:

A production version of Camaro at NAIAS in January '07

A fleet of pre-production/production spec Camaros at major auto events all through '07. I believe these cars will wear 40th anniversary colors and be considered '07 models. One will pace Indy. The cars will have a pedigree with a history of their promotional tour much like the first SSRs did. Some of these cars will find their way to private owners eventually.

If GM can find any way to do it, I expect to see a few regular production '07s with full-scale production of '08s starting late in '07 or early in '08.

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GM does not have any tricks up its sleaves. GM just lost 11 billion dollars in case anyone is paying attention.

A release date for production versus a production vehicle at 07 NAIAS are irrelevant when it comes to timing and the length of time it takes to get a vehicle to market. There is not a direct correlation in real terms.

Your timing is not possible. It cannot be done.

Anyone that leads you to believe otherwise has:

1) Bad information

or

2) Does not know how to interpret the information.

As I have stated many times before there is a very long lead time prior to the clock starting on a program. We are in that long lead time, planning and organizing phase.

Because as I last check the Camaro is not formally approved and is being worked on, does not mean that the program will be released faster in the process when or if the formal green light is given. That is the way the process works.

Behind the scenes I have shared and validated my information on numerious occasions. We are all in agreement that much of the timing that is being reported online is wrong. Status of the program is wrong or taken out of context.

I have information on the program that deals with the big picture of the program and at the stage that fit into the high level VDP.

So your timing not only can not happen because VDP does not work that fast, it is not planned to happen and has never been.

As much as I would love to admit I am wrong because a Camaro could be good for GM soon, it will not be here as soon as I would like. That is just the way things work at an OEM.

Also and this is a passing thought - rwd for NA is a very expensive program and will require a substancial investment. 11 billion dollars is alot of money to loose in one year. In about a month, we will soon see how the first quarter has been.

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GM does not have any tricks up its sleaves.  GM just lost 11 billion dollars in case anyone is paying attention.

A release date for production versus a production vehicle at 07 NAIAS are irrelevant when it comes to timing and the length of time it takes to get a vehicle to market.  There is not a direct correlation in real terms.

Your timing is not possible.  It cannot be done.

Anyone that leads you to believe otherwise has:

1) Bad information

or

2) Does not know how to interpret the information.

As I have stated many times before there is a very long lead time prior to the clock starting on a program.  We are in that long lead time, planning and organizing phase.

Because as I last check the Camaro is not formally approved and is being worked on, does not mean that the program will be released faster in the process when or if the formal green light is given.  That is the way the process works.

Behind the scenes I have shared and validated my information on numerious occasions.  We are all in agreement that much of the timing that is being reported online is wrong.  Status of the program is wrong or taken out of context.

I have information on the program that deals with the big picture of the program and at the stage that fit into the high level VDP. 

So your timing not only can not happen because VDP does not work that fast, it is not planned to happen and has never been.

As much as I would love to admit I am wrong because a Camaro could be good for GM soon, it will not be here as soon as I would like.  That is just the way things work at an OEM.

Also and this is a passing thought - rwd for NA is a very expensive program and will require a substancial investment.  11 billion dollars is alot of money to loose in one year.  In about a month, we will soon see how the first quarter has been.

OK, I'll accept this at face value. Do my notions about seeing a production spec car at NAIAS seem likely to you?

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The plant where NA Zeta's are made would have to be retooled like NOW, if "2007 40th Ann. Camaros" were to be built in less than a year.

Sure, it would be great if GM could whip up all new cars in days, but still be realistic.

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I think what has me holding out hope for the ealier scenario most is the fact that the VE Holdens are set to debut this year. To be fair, I remember mention that these cars will not be exactly the same as GMNA's Zeta buta great deal of commonality will be there. So, the question becomes what effect does all of that development have on the "usual" timeframe required to get a car to production?

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The plant where NA Zeta's are made would have to be retooled like NOW, if "2007 40th Ann. Camaros" were to be built in less than a year.

Sure, it would be great if GM could whip up all new cars in days, but still be realistic.

My ideas about 40th Ann. cars does not depend upon production being underway. I would not be a bit surprised if pre-production cars are actually used for this purpose.

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I think what has me holding out hope for the ealier scenario most is the fact that the VE Holdens are set to debut this year. To be fair, I remember mention that these cars will not be exactly the same as GMNA's Zeta buta great deal of commonality will be there. So, the question becomes what effect does all of that development have on the "usual" timeframe required to get a car to production?

Yeah, the VE Commodores are coming out this year. But Camaro will have substantial differences. The entire structure from the dash forward is unique to it. As is the upper structure. The platform is being created as we speak. It's on track...but it's not going to be out as soon as alot of people think/hope.

And other than just talk and proposals....at this very moment, there are only two Zeta cars for NA that are actually being worked on. Camaro and Impala.

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I think what has me holding out hope for the ealier scenario most is the fact that the VE Holdens are set to debut this year. To be fair, I remember mention that these cars will not be exactly the same as GMNA's Zeta buta great deal of commonality will be there. So, the question becomes what effect does all of that development have on the "usual" timeframe required to get a car to production?

Wheather or not Zeta is based on VE will not effect the lead time on suppliers and tooling. That is when the clock starts for production Camaro and we will likely hear things the same day that suppliers do. The question is how much time is there between now and the day suppliers and tool companies start getting work orders. Lutz said that a decision would be made within 6 monts of the debut. That means that the business case is still being built which means that only engineering/tooling/supply work which is being done on VE, which has been approved, is being done. Engineering evaluation mules may have been or are being created BUT that doesn't mean the program is approved and that the clock has started.

MY quesiton for those who know is: Once suppliers/tooling companies get the work orders/make bids how long will it take to get the production line up and running?

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Wheather or not Zeta is based on VE will not effect the lead time on suppliers and tooling.  That is when the clock starts for production Camaro and we will likely hear things the same day that suppliers do.  The question is how much time is there between now and the day suppliers and tool companies start getting work orders.  Lutz said that a decision would be made within 6 monts of the debut.  That means that the business case is still being built which means that only engineering/tooling/supply work which is being done on VE, which has been approved, is being done.  Engineering evaluation mules may have been or are being created BUT that doesn't mean the program is approved and that the clock has started.

MY quesiton for those who know is:  Once suppliers/tooling companies get the work orders/make bids how long will it take to get the production line up and running?

At which point, the additional variables of how much VE production speeds the process and plant choice come into play.

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OK, I'll accept this at face value. Do my notions about seeing a production spec car at NAIAS seem likely to you?

I am not aware that it will be there or not. But if it is at the show, it is not an indication that the vehicle will be out soon. GM could do it if they want to. There is nothing stopping them.

My suggestion to GM is not to show it. Wait until the 2008 show.

The 2006 Camaro concept was a mistake because it created unresonable expectations as to when the vehicle may reach production. They should have waited until the 2007 show, when the whole zeta plan could have been finalized with a workable approved plan in place.

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Wheather or not Zeta is based on VE will not effect the lead time on suppliers and tooling.  That is when the clock starts for production Camaro and we will likely hear things the same day that suppliers do.  The question is how much time is there between now and the day suppliers and tool companies start getting work orders.  Lutz said that a decision would be made within 6 monts of the debut.  That means that the business case is still being built which means that only engineering/tooling/supply work which is being done on VE, which has been approved, is being done.  Engineering evaluation mules may have been or are being created BUT that doesn't mean the program is approved and that the clock has started.

MY quesiton for those who know is:  Once suppliers/tooling companies get the work orders/make bids how long will it take to get the production line up and running?

Before RFQs can go out, the suppliers need to know what they are dealing with. That is the first task.

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I think what has me holding out hope for the ealier scenario most is the fact that the VE Holdens are set to debut this year. To be fair, I remember mention that these cars will not be exactly the same as GMNA's Zeta but a great deal of commonality will be there. So, the question becomes what effect does all of that development have on the "usual" timeframe required to get a car to production?

Still 12-18 months from sign-off for a vehicle with all major structure and components shared with an existing model (merely re-skinned). The Camaro will not be such a vehicle (i.e. not merely a 2-door Commodore). A production concept with a lot of work under the skin still to go probably could not debut before the 2008 NAIAS. Calibration of the ECU and suspension settings for local market conditions may take 6 months alone (which is why the Gen IV V8 in the last VZ Commodores doesn't get AFM). If GM approves a MonteCarlo based on the next Monaro, it could come out before the Camaro.

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at the risk of another warning, it sure is nice to read a thread based on some semblance of fact instead of wild speculation (or was that comment too sarcastic without enough constructive value?)

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at the risk of another warning, it sure is nice to read a thread based on some semblance of fact instead of wild speculation (or was that comment too sarcastic without enough constructive value?)

97RegalGS, please clear out your PM box. You're full. Thanks.

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Still 12-18 months from sign-off for a vehicle with all major structure and components shared with an existing model (merely re-skinned). The Camaro will not be such a vehicle (i.e. not merely a 2-door Commodore). A production concept with a lot of work under the skin still to go probably could not debut before the 2008 NAIAS. Calibration of the ECU and suspension settings for local market conditions may take 6 months alone (which is why the Gen IV V8 in the last VZ Commodores doesn't get AFM). If GM approves a MonteCarlo based on the next Monaro, it could come out before the Camaro.

Food for thought.

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If GM approves a MonteCarlo based on the next Monaro, it could come out before the Camaro.

That is unless the "Monaro replacement" is based on the Camaro.

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