Ram Gets Some New Vans

[Satty]

Assuming the Ducato gets here diesel only, it will have a very strong point to sell on.

[Camino LS6]

2."For that market" - is not in dispute here. I'm simply saying that the van's European sales performance simply doesn't matter when bringing it here. I have no distorted view of Europe, I'm simply saying that this van's ubiquitous presence there tells us nothing about its prospects here.

It is an indicator of it's abilities. If the Ducato provides for better fuel economy and/or better ride and/or a good out the door price.... it will sell. It's not just another Econoline... and that's it's advantage.

Lots of "ifs" in there.

It will be the comparison to Sprinter that will tell the tale.

[daves87rs]

Three things.

1. Businesses are emotional about one thing: money. If these vans provide a good value, are reliable, and are fuel efficient. They'll sell.

2. You can't swing a dead cat in Europe without hitting a Ducato. They are the European version equivalent to the Econoline. They can do the work that most will ask of them.

3. Ram needs something to replace the Sprinter.... or are you suggesting they simply cede these markets to Ford?

Lol on the dead cat quote...

The little one should do well, the big one-maybe...

[Drew Dowdell]

2."For that market" - is not in dispute here. I'm simply saying that the van's European sales performance simply doesn't matter when bringing it here. I have no distorted view of Europe, I'm simply saying that this van's ubiquitous presence there tells us nothing about its prospects here.

It is an indicator of it's abilities. If the Ducato provides for better fuel economy and/or better ride and/or a good out the door price.... it will sell. It's not just another Econoline... and that's it's advantage.

Lots of "ifs" in there.

It will be the comparison to Sprinter that will tell the tale.

If it can do any one of them, it will have a leg up on the market.

• The Econoline rides rough. Even an Express is a luxury cruiser compared to the Ford.

• The Econoline's best available fuel economy is about 12 city/17 highway because you can't get the V6 anymore. The Ducato gets up to 32mpg highway in it's most basic form with a diesel and 5-speed. Even if that were to drop to 25mpg with an automatic, that's a BIG difference over the Ford or GM counterparts.

• Base MSRP for the Econoline is $26,055. The cheapest GMC Savanna is $25,600 with the weezy 4.3 V6. You can't even TOUCH a Freightliner Sprinter for less than $35,000.

There is room in the market for the Ducato. Get it in around $27k with the diesel as the base engine and they'll sell every one they can import.

[z28luvr01]

Seriously, it's a box. Even if Fiat were to give it all new sheetmetal for the Ram brand, I'm guessing it won't exactly be the second coming of the 63-67 Corvette. And it's not supposed to be. It's purposed with one job - to haul sh*t. If it can do that quickly, reliably, and cheaply, it'll do well.

[Drew Dowdell]

Seriously, it's a box. Even if Fiat were to give it all new sheetmetal for the Ram brand, I'm guessing it won't exactly be the second coming of the 63-67 Corvette. And it's not supposed to be. It's purposed with one job - to haul sh*t. If it can do that quickly, reliably, and cheaply, it'll do well.

Seriously, it's a box.

[Camino LS6]

I will say that both the Ford and GM offerings are beyond long-in-the-tooth, but an update to include diesels could change everything. The Ford is just pure crap too, driving one is serious punishment - it does nothing very well.

Maybe this Fiat will do well - we shall see.

[Robert Hall]

Pretty sure the Ford E-series is or was available w/ a diesel..Power Stroke?

Edit: was. Apparently, the 6.0 Power Stroke was dropped for '11.

Edited March 7, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

Im not saying you can't, but there is a big up charge for a Duramax or PowerStroke. Neither are full economy minded either but are all about power.

[SAmadei]

Seriously, it's a box.

For some, not for others. I think the problem here is simple... the Sprinter and euro-influenced vans are simply not masculine enough for the American workman. This is a contributing factor in the Astro and Transit Connect's success... they may not be super manly, but have enough machismo for contractors to buy them. In 8 years, have seen few Sprinter contractor vans.

As mentioned, this can be fixed with some well thought out sheetmetal updates... trouble is, more often than not, there will be NO changes when this comes over except for the emblem and possibly the grill.

But there is more to the box than its shape... there is also its construction and motivation. My worry is that the euro-influenced vans will not have the power or capabilities that American workmen expect, which in some cases is on par with the monster payloads that high end pickups have.

I was reading on the Econoline Wiki page that the current E series is dead after 2014... to be replaced with the European Transit... which I find alarming. Few people missed it when the fullsize Dodge van disappeared after being around for 31 years... but the E series is a serious seller still, to the best of my knowledge.

And I can only imagine GM will quickly cancel the Express and bring over some awful Opel because "Thats what everybody else is doing, and they are smarter than we are".

Just another reason why I better be happy with Dad's GMC van... and should paint it "A-Team" colors as soon as I can.

I suppose soon the only thing distinctly American on American roads will be pickup trucks.

[FAPTurbo]

I'm not sure what could be more masculine than a vehicle that is no-nonsense, reliable, and allows one to conduct their business efficiently without worrying about any foo-foo exterior design considerations.

Edited March 8, 2011 by FAPTurbo

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm thinking that the $35k base price for the Sprinter... a full $10k more than a new base Savanna.. has more to do with the Sprinter's limited adoption rates by contractors than any "perceived manliness issue"

[Robert Hall]

I'm thinking that the $35k base price for the Sprinter... a full $10k more than a new base Savanna.. has more to do with the Sprinter's limited adoption rates by contractors than any "perceived manliness issue"

It's also related to the premium branding...since they are now badged as Mercs in the US.

Saw a black Merc Sprinter tall roof panel van with chrome wheels and AMG badging..wishful thinking by an owner, I think..

Edited March 8, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

and Freightliner

[Robert Hall]

and Freightliner

Forgot about that version..don't see them very often. Been seeing a lot of the Merc ones lately. VW also has a version of the Sprinter in Europe--the Crafter with a unique nose..

One of the local Merc dealers has 8-10 of them in row, all white.

Edited March 8, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

All the new ones here are Freightliner now.

[balthazar]

You are simply mistaken here, contractors do care about how their work trucks look - they take great pride in that. Trust me, I know.

As with any scenario of various degrees, this is generally true.

People are superficial- a beater work truck doesn't instill first impression confidence for too many people (it should be irrelevant, of course).

I can run a list here of contractors who have put a lot into the appearance of their trucks, far beyond the functionality aspect, far beyond what even a sensible budget would allow. This is a very real pride in appearance and a desire to be perceived as professional and successful. A truck you can be proud of & want to take care of is a rolling business card for many guys.

One guy I know has a very successful towing business. He's proud of his trucks; his name is on every one. So what's the business case for an $800K tow truck with scissor doors & one-off 24"s?? Pride.

Contractors go with what they know and what's been proven. Fiat is neither. Any perception there is, is generally negative, not positive.

Smart business is about reducing your exposure to risk. A Fiat truck is a risk, plain & simple, until time-proven otherwise.

Sorry, but the euro experience for fiat holds no water here.

The doblo is wondrously misshapen- it's not geared to this market or it's segment.

For it's sake- I hope Chrysler can reskin it before it's brought to the lots.

Edited March 8, 2011 by balthazar

[Intrepidation]

This thread is funny. People care about how their trucks look? Has anyone seen an Econoline or Express lately? Not only do they look poor, they drive worse. The Sprinter was no looker either, but at least it drove well. It was just expensive compared to the other dinosaurs and had a weak for the class diesel.

Vans sell based on utility, not looks. Trucks, yeah people have pride in how they look, even business. Vans? No.

Also, there's a market for small vans. I see lots of Transit Connects done up with company logos and, interestingly, much nicer company paintwork than big vans...probably used the money they saved to spend more than $6 on stencil lettering for the side of the van.

[SAmadei]

This thread is funny. People care about how their trucks look?

Whats REALLY funny is the same people who claim people don't care how their trucks look are the same ones waiting in line for a certain stylish MP3 player or cell phone.

Has anyone seen an Econoline or Express lately? Not only do they look poor, they drive worse. The Sprinter was no looker either, but at least it drove well. It was just expensive compared to the other dinosaurs and had a weak for the class diesel.

I agree the current E series is somewhat awful looking, but the basic shape is simple and attractive... only the tack-ons are lousy looking. Its not ugly to the bone like the Doblo and Ducato. I fell the Express is decent enough in the looks department... but its no '66 Chevy SportVan.

As for driving... I haven't driven a post '96 GM full size van, but the E series I drove recently drove like every E series I've driven... like a truck... driving a work truck is part of work... its not supposed to be a Cadillac or Porsche.

Vans sell based on utility, not looks. Trucks, yeah people have pride in how they look, even business. Vans? No.

Again, sorry, I have to disagree. I know guys who sold their high-roof vans because they were too "dorky" looking.

Also, there's a market for small vans. I see lots of Transit Connects done up with company logos and, interestingly, much nicer company paintwork than big vans...probably used the money they saved to spend more than $6 on stencil lettering for the side of the van.

No disagreement there. There have been people wanting an updated Astro/Aerostar van for some time. The Transit Connect is successful without being mistaken for a minivan. Even if it has ribbing stolen from a 1996 Pontiac Transport, it looks worlds better than the Doblo.

[Intrepidation]

I meant van not truck. My bad. If I owned a business requiring the use of vans, I would care more about what it can do for my business not how manly I look in it. Price, economy, features, cargo capacity, storage solutions, and which one would suite my needs best.

If you buy a work van because you think it makes you look manly your priorities are backwards.

If there's any image an Express or E-Series conjures up its one of a jackass. Let's face it, most businesses use those vans and most van drivers are second only to taxi cab drivers for being assholes on the road.

[Croc]

Three things.

1. Businesses are emotional about one thing: money. If these vans provide a good value, are reliable, and are fuel efficient. They'll sell.

2. You can't swing a dead cat in Europe without hitting a Ducato. They are the European version equivalent to the Econoline. They can do the work that most will ask of them.

3. Ram needs something to replace the Sprinter.... or are you suggesting they simply cede these markets to Ford?

So?

1. Businesses are composed of humans. Humans are emotional (even if the emotional response is an unconcious one). Maybe these will sell, maybe they will not, but the emotional aspect will remain.

2. Europe is no indicator for our market.

3. Of course not, but I hope they reduce the ugly before they release these vans.

You clearly have little insight into the experience of a small business owner. Does it fulfill my needs? How much does it cost to operate/maintain? How does it drive? Can I paint an effective advertisement for my business all over it? Can I service it conveniently? Is it reliable? Those are the questions asked by a business, NOT "Can I get it lower, longer and wider?"

[SAmadei]

I meant van not truck. My bad.

Same difference in the context of my reply.

If I owned a business requiring the use of vans, I would care more about what it can do for my business not how manly I look in it. Price, economy, features, cargo capacity, storage solutions, and which one would suite my needs best.

Fantastic. Except there is more to it than your list, and appearance is just one of them. A designer of ANYTHING overlooking that is tragic.

There is also familiarity with the design, expected repair costs, layout, etc.

For example, you can't expect to stack a high roof van to the top... top heavy vehicles are a PITA to drive... are hard to sort through and some cargo cannot be stacked that high. A high roof van is also hard to put ladder racks and such on top of.

If you buy a work van because you think it makes you look manly your priorities are backwards.

I never said that was the primary reason, only a consideration.

That said, the guy with a 800K tricked out tow truck might have his priorities mixed up, but he's still making money hand over fist.

If there's any image an Express or E-Series conjures up its one of a jackass. Let's face it, most businesses use those vans and most van drivers are second only to taxi cab drivers for being assholes on the road.

What does this have to do with anything? Everybody on the road is a jackass... including you and me. When I courteously let someone out of a parking lot into traffic, the guy behind me calls me an asshole.

In NYC, there are plenty of Sprinters, Transit Connects and other oddities driving like jackasses, so I can't say the E series and Express guys stand out any more than anyone else.

Those guys have to earn a living at the client's location, not sitting in traffic behind an asshole who is asleep at a green light reading his text messages. There are enough people out there burning them in traffic because "they don't want to be behind a truck" everyday that I can't blame them for burning others before they get burnt. Welcome to the jungle... don't like it, move to North Dakota.

Getting back on topic... we can put DodgeFan down for 1 Dodge Doblo.

Edited March 8, 2011 by SAmadei

[Camino LS6]

Three things.

1. Businesses are emotional about one thing: money. If these vans provide a good value, are reliable, and are fuel efficient. They'll sell.

2. You can't swing a dead cat in Europe without hitting a Ducato. They are the European version equivalent to the Econoline. They can do the work that most will ask of them.

3. Ram needs something to replace the Sprinter.... or are you suggesting they simply cede these markets to Ford?

So?

1. Businesses are composed of humans. Humans are emotional (even if the emotional response is an unconcious one). Maybe these will sell, maybe they will not, but the emotional aspect will remain.

2. Europe is no indicator for our market.

3. Of course not, but I hope they reduce the ugly before they release these vans.

You clearly have little insight into the experience of a small business owner. Does it fulfill my needs? How much does it cost to operate/maintain? How does it drive? Can I paint an effective advertisement for my business all over it? Can I service it conveniently? Is it reliable? Those are the questions asked by a business, NOT "Can I get it lower, longer and wider?"

You clearly know absolutely nothing about contractors - read Balthy's post for a quick primer.

[balthazar]

Hauls sh!t around, reliable :

Note American flag on japanese truck.

When you have professional pride :

Money involved aside; it's still illustrative of the concept.

You KNOW the 2nd truck is going to take real good care of your vehicle.

In other words, the vehicle says something to the consumer.

The concept of a nice work truck is no different than what you see in the real estate business. An agent in an altima is just not going to inspire the same degree of confidence in their ability as one in a 550i. Like I said- it shouldn't be the case, but that's how most people form perceptions- superficially.

Doblo says 'I'm a $8K van from India - keep me away from open flame'.

Edited March 8, 2011 by balthazar

[William Maley]

Update: There could be another van coming as well. From PickupTrucks.com

Ram CEO Fred Diaz says the company hasn't ruled out selling a version of the Iveco Daily in North America.

"The Daily is something we're also looking at," Diaz told PickupTrucks.com at the 2011 NTEA Work Truck Show. "It's part of what we're considering. We just have to make the business case for it."

Overseas, the Daily is offered in cargo and passenger vans configurations and chassis cab models. Engine choices include 2.3-liter and 3.0-liter four-cylinder diesels