Germany Could Ban 2.8 Million Diesel VWs From Its Roads

[El Kabong]

The problem need never have happened in the first place. The tech was there to utilize. VW never utilized it.

I believe the email from Bosch to VW is enough to absolve them of any culpability. They advised VW to use the software for dyno tests only and that any other use would be tantamount to fraud. Bosch couldn't have been any clearer than that in their warning. After that it's all up to the customer to use or abuse the product the vendor supplies them.

Edited October 2, 2015 by El Kabong

[oldshurst442]

^^^

And of course...that.

 

But Id like to see DFELT's question answered about Bosch as well.

Id like to see how far this goes. But if that text is legit and Bosch's warning was a TRUE warning and had no clue on how VW was using that software, then it seems like Bosch maybe in the clear...

[Drew Dowdell]

I am tired of the word cooperate greed.

This too often leads to people thinking it is only just about the money which is only part true when there are so many other factors involved.

Too often it is the pressures with in a company from investors, The pressures from the government regulations to meet, the expectations of the customers while meeting the other issues from the government and investors. Running a company is tough and making products in this climate is even more difficult. I expect we will see even more desperate moves as the gas vehicles take a MPG hit in 2025-and later.

Also these companies are so large that those in the middle get squeezed and pressured and often do things they should not do. too often we never hear the full story.

Case in point. While this one was not anything illegal it shows the thinking of people in the middle at GM under the old culture.

In Lutz one book he had a new Impala coming and he was meeting with the designer. The car had no chrome around the windows. He asked the designer that would it not look better with the chrome and the designer said yes. Then he ask was asked why he did not put it on. Well the reply was I would get in major trouble for going over budget. Well Lutz asked would it not sell better with the chrome and the designer said yes. Lutz said what would you rather get in trouble for selling a car a little over budget that had great sales or a car the failed in the market and had remained in budget?

The logic inside some of these companies is very damaged and some very simple things do not get done because of some people making some very poor choices.

While I am not going to say profit was not the motive but too often if a program is failing or has a major problem sometimes people will try to cover it over to make it go away for now hoping no one is the wiser. Corporate policy too often can get results they never intended.

While $387 sounds like a lot of money over millions of cars anyone with a clear mind generally could not think this would go forever unnoticed. The Germans are not that dumb.

I just believe like in the GM case there is much more to this than we will ever know and the most obvious things are not always the reasons they happened.

The media and the far and I mean the Bernie Sanders left want to push the corporate greed thing and while it may be true in some cases just corrupt culture of blame and expectations make people to things just to keep their job. The redistribution people are now even pushing that poor people die in car crashed more often. While true you really need to dig into the details to understand.

Sad to say but we may never hear the truth to this and if we did we would never fully understand why someone would be so stupid thinking it would go unnoticed for ever.

There are times for the nuanced approach you describe and there are times when it is corporate greed.

VW has been hell bent on dominating the automotive market for years now. This was corporate greed.

[hyperv6]

I am tired of the word cooperate greed.

This too often leads to people thinking it is only just about the money which is only part true when there are so many other factors involved.

Too often it is the pressures with in a company from investors, The pressures from the government regulations to meet, the expectations of the customers while meeting the other issues from the government and investors. Running a company is tough and making products in this climate is even more difficult. I expect we will see even more desperate moves as the gas vehicles take a MPG hit in 2025-and later.

Also these companies are so large that those in the middle get squeezed and pressured and often do things they should not do. too often we never hear the full story.

Case in point. While this one was not anything illegal it shows the thinking of people in the middle at GM under the old culture.

In Lutz one book he had a new Impala coming and he was meeting with the designer. The car had no chrome around the windows. He asked the designer that would it not look better with the chrome and the designer said yes. Then he ask was asked why he did not put it on. Well the reply was I would get in major trouble for going over budget. Well Lutz asked would it not sell better with the chrome and the designer said yes. Lutz said what would you rather get in trouble for selling a car a little over budget that had great sales or a car the failed in the market and had remained in budget?

The logic inside some of these companies is very damaged and some very simple things do not get done because of some people making some very poor choices.

While I am not going to say profit was not the motive but too often if a program is failing or has a major problem sometimes people will try to cover it over to make it go away for now hoping no one is the wiser. Corporate policy too often can get results they never intended.

While $387 sounds like a lot of money over millions of cars anyone with a clear mind generally could not think this would go forever unnoticed. The Germans are not that dumb.

I just believe like in the GM case there is much more to this than we will ever know and the most obvious things are not always the reasons they happened.

The media and the far and I mean the Bernie Sanders left want to push the corporate greed thing and while it may be true in some cases just corrupt culture of blame and expectations make people to things just to keep their job. The redistribution people are now even pushing that poor people die in car crashed more often. While true you really need to dig into the details to understand.

Sad to say but we may never hear the truth to this and if we did we would never fully understand why someone would be so stupid thinking it would go unnoticed for ever.

There are times for the nuanced approach you describe and there are times when it is corporate greed.

VW has been hell bent on dominating the automotive market for years now. This was corporate greed.

You are not going to dominate the world with saving $387 per diesel car with a high risk you are going to get caught at some point.

Now there are many other ways you can do it but not with what VW tried. In the global perspective this was not going to do it.

I really believe Management pressured engineers to make the cars better and cleaner on less money. Not possible may not have even been permitted to be an option. Often lower ranking people will take a risk like this as they really have little to lose. You lose your job not doing the impossible and if you get caught you lose a job that you were going to lose anyways.

Lets face it any top level leader would know the risk at getting caught as well as the odds and knew that it would do much more damage to the company than the gain.

You may be right but I just don't buy the greed angle. When it comes to greed it is done in many other non risky ways. You make cheaper interiors and thinner metal or cheaper oil when you ship the cars even cheaper Korean tire, you move production to a third world country in essence you do low risk high return deals not high risk and high penalty and damaging choices.

Also too many mistake cooperate greed for profits. Too many anymore forget companies are in business to make money plain and simple. They are not there to employee people that is just a pleasant side effect.

To do something like they did it was someone desperate and someone with less to lose lower on the scale. At least that is my perspective. If a VW leader wanted to save $387 per car they had many more safer options to take than this one if you really sit back and look at this.

This is proof GM is far from the only one with damaged inner culture. Most large companies suffer from poor communication and poor reliance on talented workers anymore. Even where I work I can see how growing larger has been good but also bad in many areas.

[El Kabong]

If you break the rules, you are in the wrong.

And profit margins on smaller cars are low enough that an extra 400 bucks saved is enormous.

It was all greed.

Edited October 3, 2015 by El Kabong

[oldshurst442]

This is proof GM is far from the only one with damaged inner culture. Most large companies suffer from poor communication and poor reliance on talented workers anymore. Even where I work I can see how growing larger has been good but also bad in many areas.

 

 

THAT would be GM...and the myriad of problems that GM had...which WAS bad communication between all the management levels and production and engineering and quality control...corporate greed was also a problem chez GM too...

 

Now...VW...in THIS case...its NOT about communication breakdowns as BOSCH warned them that if they go on ahead with this software install, its downright fraud and criminal...

 

Blind eyes and deaf ears does NOT qualify as communication breakdown....its corporate greed.

 

Another blast from the past to lighten up the mood with another song that keeps with a theme of what was said.

 

Communication Breakdown

[hyperv6]

If you break the rules, you are in the wrong.

And profit margins on smaller cars are low enough that an extra 400 bucks saved is enormous.

It was all greed.

In business people of large cooperation's normally will take risk but only calculated. This was not even calculated as they had to know you could not cover this up forever. It would only take one person testing a car outside the on board computer.

We all take calculated risk all the time. Many of us at work will put off something but we calculate we will get back to it before anyone notices. A risk yes but we attend to another need first with the expectation of having time to delay the deadline.

On the other hand you could say cheat on your wife and if she has any kind of common senses she will catch on that you are not home every night and not out with the boys. You may get away with it short term but the day of reckoning is going to come and you will pay dearly. That is what I see here.

Also you have to put this into perspective too. Even with the billions VW may have saved in the big picture of their corporation this is a small term gain over all with risk to lose a lot more than they made.

Not arguing with you just my view that this was not something done directly at the top and I am figuring it was someone in engineering that buckled under pressure and hid it from everyone but those involved. Now at what point did the leaders know and did they look away that is another story but I think the intent here started low and was to meet goals out of desperation.

Lets face it you have to ask yourself how many other ways VW could have saved %387 per car with little to no risk? There were many ways to have saved that money and few people would have taken such a risk here knowing the truth would come out someday as a leader. Not defending them but just considering what people at this level have to consider and that $387 per unit is just not worth the risk and penalties. they could have cut so many other things that did not matter to save that kind of money.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

Hyper.

saving $400 per vehicle is not easy, not at all, no way.

 

VW took a liberty to save a LOT of money, that they believed they could get away with.....then got caught.

 

End 

Of

Story

[ocnblu]

I liked all of my VWs, even when they were troublesome, the driving experience blinded me, and I didn't mind being blinded.  I've only owned one TDi so far though, and it was the best VW I've owned yet.

 

I got rid of it on flimsy excuses.  Anyone who has been here for a while knows I go through vehicles quickly.  I always want my new toy.  I do love my truck though, and I see I am not alone... the new GM midsize trucks are the most-loved pickup trucks out there, per a new survey.

 

The business side of VW and every other huge corporation can be ugly, and it is a shame for all of the engineers' hard work to bring an appealing vehicle to market, and then be torn down by something as hideous as this.

 

The diesel engine does not deserve to be tainted by this situation.  The "fixes" sound like they will choke the life out of a great performing, very efficient powerplant.

 

I would rather have the TDi run free and return fantastic fuel efficiency with plenty of fun, than be saddled with these BS "fixes" that are anything but.

[David]

I liked all of my VWs, even when they were troublesome, the driving experience blinded me, and I didn't mind being blinded.  I've only owned one TDi so far though, and it was the best VW I've owned yet.

 

I got rid of it on flimsy excuses.  Anyone who has been here for a while knows I go through vehicles quickly.  I always want my new toy.  I do love my truck though, and I see I am not alone... the new GM midsize trucks are the most-loved pickup trucks out there, per a new survey.

 

The business side of VW and every other huge corporation can be ugly, and it is a shame for all of the engineers' hard work to bring an appealing vehicle to market, and then be torn down by something as hideous as this.

 

The diesel engine does not deserve to be tainted by this situation.  The "fixes" sound like they will choke the life out of a great performing, very efficient powerplant.

 

I would rather have the TDi run free and return fantastic fuel efficiency with plenty of fun, than be saddled with these BS "fixes" that are anything but.

I understand your point, yet there are plenty of medical facts that show emissions from a free running diesel engine is anything but good for the planet and especially people. Diesel is a far more dirty fuel than any other. With that said I do agree with you that they can be very fun to drive as the torque monsters they are. So you build it a bit bigger to off set what the cleaning technology would steal from the engine.

 

On the flip side, VW, Porsche, Audi, MB, BMW all are saddled with Huge Union obligations that make it also harder to squeeze a profit out of a small auto. So you have to take into consideration that VW could have seen the software fix of $400 savings per car as a better way to go than to shutdown inefficient plants, lay off workers, etc.

 

With this line of thought, one has to wonder how some will survive when they cannot grow their market share to a point that supports the burdens of Unionized labor with the pension funds, etc that are not sustainable long term. One wonders how long the socialist system of Europe can last before more countries go bankrupt and workers find themselves having to work for life as they have no retirement since they never saved, but relied on a pension.

 

Eventually I hope the US wakes up to this double standard and demands the political system to do away with pension funds and have ALL Gov Workers from the President down to city workers on SS and Medicare. Equal for all.

 

Now off the soap box and back to VW, I suspect VW is going to have to Reduce cost due to this scandal and what will amount to lost sales. Unions better get ready to have plants closed, shifts reduced as I expect VW to lose worldwide market share.

[hyperv6]

Hyper.

saving $400 per vehicle is not easy, not at all, no way.

 

VW took a liberty to save a LOT of money, that they believed they could get away with.....then got caught.

 

End 

Of

Story

But at great risk with large penalty. There were easier ways with little to no risk to do the same result.

Too many fall for the media induced evil capitalist corporation stories. Just look at what the media did to GM and other automakers.

The web has given us much positive but one thing is it has lead to agenda driven media and groups to push things with some truth and a lot of manipulated well crafted info.

Just look at the global warming issue. Both sides present the truth but polar opposites of each. Both have money at stake in the deal and neither one will admit the truth that neither can prove 100% their side. Sure people have opinions but there is no 100% proof either way. While mankind has gotten smarter we still do not know all about this earth and when we think we do we get a curve ball tosses at us.

Just look at the scare the media put into us with the dieses from Africa last year. They had us all dying in less than 5 years in droves. Today not a word about it. Agenda driven media at work.

As for the VW thing you may be right someone got stupid and though saving $387 at high risk was a good idea. But from what I know of people in places like that they are not against saving money but they are not going to risk it all on what will amount so be a small sum in savings in the greater picture.

Lets face it we here on the web could easily remove $387 of content from a car with no risk of EPA wrath. Now do you really think VW at the top did this at risk of many billions more than saved stepping on the EPA? There is no logic.

Now like I said you may be right but you have to really look at this in all aspects. Odds are someone took a short cut under pressure and kept this up over the long term to cover their ass is my thinking. Until they dig we will not know. Heck we may never know.

By the way I do have some experience with CARB and Diesels. We sold parts in California for Diesels that we thought were ok but turned out not. It cost us millions of dollars. We could not appeal it and it was a true error. We had to go back and recheck everything. We were not the only one hit and we go the light fine.

This is one area I know we and most MFG will not step on because it is like a sidewinder and will strike if you are even close. There are places you can play it close but EPA or CARB no way.

Edited October 3, 2015 by hyperv6

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

^

 

Again, no, no......NO...there are not easier ways.  Shaving $100 off a vehicle is not easy, let alone 4X that.  If it were so easy, everyone would be doing it.  Especially them.  

[El Kabong]

400 dollars, times 2.8 million vehicles in Germany alone.

We're talking billion dollar-range fraud.

Capitalism, like any other endeavour, must be performed ethically in order to work right. It is not inherently good.

[hyperv6]

But you are not taking into account the risk as odds are good you will get caught and the price will be high and the penalty great once caught.

The calculation here is very poor you would pull this one off forever. Of anyone the Germans are smart enough to know high up that this was a means to an end not profit.

Like I said you may be right but the odds are great that this was not a pure profit motive just based on the odds and the risk involved. Even us internet CEO's would not take this kind of risk.

I really do not see VW as this desperate or arrogant to think they could get away with this one forever. It is something so simple that even a tuner shop could have stumbled over in time.

Yes this was a billions of dollars savings here but it will be an even greater Billions of Dollars lost once caught. Not just the fines and repairs but also the last sales and reputation hold an even greater value that would exceed anything that the savings brought. This is not taking into account taking government money that would really lead to jail time if tied to anyone specific. Defrauding the government for nearly $75 Million dollars at this point is real jail time if a name id put to it. Capone killed many people but cheating on his taxes was what sent him to jail. I can't believe this was sanctioned at the top if it was an intentional act.

I still suspect that the goals were set for the engineers and they got desperate to save their own jobs. Failure is not taken lightly by the Germans.

With the kind of money the top people are making they could much easier walk away vs. killing off the happy ending to their lives.

Edited October 4, 2015 by hyperv6

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

http://www.sfgate.com/news/medical/article/AP-analysis-Dozens-of-deaths-likely-from-VW-6547657.php

 

WASHINGTON (AP) — Volkswagen's pollution-control chicanery has not just been victimless tinkering, killing between five and 20 people in the United States annually in recent years, according to an Associated Press statistical and computer analysis.

 

The software that the company admitted using to get around government emissions limits allowed VWs to spew enough pollution to cause somewhere between 16 and 94 deaths over seven years, with the annual count increasing more recently as more of the diesels were on the road. The total cost has been well over $100 million.

That's just in the United States. It's likely far deadlier and costlier in Europe, where more VW diesels were sold, engineers said. Scientists and experts said the death toll in Europe could be as high as hundreds each year, though they caution that it is hard to take American health and air quality computer models and translate them to a more densely populated Europe.

 

"Statistically, we can't point out who died because of this policy, but some people have died or likely died as a result of this," said Carnegie Mellonenvironmental engineer professor Peter Adams. He calculates the cost of air pollution with a sophisticated computer model that he and the AP used in its analysis.

 

Computer software allowed VW diesel cars to spew between 10 to 40 times more nitrogen oxides (NOx) than allowed by regulation, making this "clearly a concern for air quality and public health," said Janet McCabe, acting air quality chief for the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Wings4Life

[hyperv6]

http://www.sfgate.com/news/medical/article/AP-analysis-Dozens-of-deaths-likely-from-VW-6547657.php

 

WASHINGTON (AP) — Volkswagen's pollution-control chicanery has not just been victimless tinkering, killing between five and 20 people in the United States annually in recent years, according to an Associated Press statistical and computer analysis.

 

The software that the company admitted using to get around government emissions limits allowed VWs to spew enough pollution to cause somewhere between 16 and 94 deaths over seven years, with the annual count increasing more recently as more of the diesels were on the road. The total cost has been well over $100 million.

That's just in the United States. It's likely far deadlier and costlier in Europe, where more VW diesels were sold, engineers said. Scientists and experts said the death toll in Europe could be as high as hundreds each year, though they caution that it is hard to take American health and air quality computer models and translate them to a more densely populated Europe.

 

"Statistically, we can't point out who died because of this policy, but some people have died or likely died as a result of this," said Carnegie Mellonenvironmental engineer professor Peter Adams. He calculates the cost of air pollution with a sophisticated computer model that he and the AP used in its analysis.

 

Computer software allowed VW diesel cars to spew between 10 to 40 times more nitrogen oxides (NOx) than allowed by regulation, making this "clearly a concern for air quality and public health," said Janet McCabe, acting air quality chief for the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

Not saying that what VW did was not wrong in any ways I still don't buy this deaths with our clarifications.

We all die a little bit every day just from the chemicals we ingest in many ways. On the other hand many other chemicals have gotten us to the point we are living longer now than ever.

These death numbers are just green people pushing an agenda in the media. I bet even if they did point out a direct death other things were involved like Cigarette smoke or some other pre existing condition. Odds are many of these people would have had the same live expectancy even if VW did not cheap.

What VW contributed amounts to about the same as 50 people pissing in the ocean. We have much greater contributors out there to the nasty's in the air.

Just look to the heavy equipment operators on unregulated equipment or even farmers and see they are not dropping over with any major lung issues related to just the exhaust of a Diesel.

Again not saying what VW did was ok but please use care when reading things in the media. It is not unbiased much either way anymore. Too many people making money off the Environmental issues anymore. Yes they cheat too.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

^

Well, I too thought it was a stretch.....until I recalled how litigious our society has become, and how creative lawyers need to be.

[ocnblu]

Imagine that.  Coming in and putting up multiple negative comments in a Volkswagen thread, when they were no doubt off radar before this situation.  Should this be allowed?  Free speech, I mean?

Edited October 4, 2015 by ocnblu

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

^

 

blu,

everyone appears to be on topic, as it relates to VW's big mistake.

[Suaviloquent]

Why is anyone defending VW here? Its way off-base to think no one in the top brass of VW knew anything about it.

 

It's extremely difficult to pull out content of vehicles in general, and it needs some sort of oversight to make sure the tracks are covered. 

 

Now I have nothing against VW. As long as they pay their fines, pay their dues, find a solution; then they're out of the hole. 

[hyperv6]

Why is anyone defending VW here? Its way off-base to think no one in the top brass of VW knew anything about it.

 

It's extremely difficult to pull out content of vehicles in general, and it needs some sort of oversight to make sure the tracks are covered. 

 

Now I have nothing against VW. As long as they pay their fines, pay their dues, find a solution; then they're out of the hole.

As in many other cases prove it!

The difference here than many other cases is they did this intentionally and that is where it gets ugly. GM did their issue out of negligence and in competence. They had plan to make a defective part it was how they dealt with it after the fact. VW intentionally planned this but the trouble is who and when. Good luck on finding this out unless they find the person and toss them to the lions.

Also the other issue will be the money they took from the different government agencies. This was fraud. Now that is something they can really sink their teeth in.

VW will pay fines and recover but they will have to walk to hell and back to get there. This one will not be as easy as the past cases we have seen.

The one good thing is VW is large enough to ride this out but it will be at least 2-5 years of digging and the rest will depends on what is found.

I have nothing against VW either. To be honest when I heard what they did I had a grin on my face with how clever it was. I tire of the government over regulation and I like it when the companies get cleaver but in this case they pissed on the governments Wheaties.

The worst part will be the Class action suits as they will bleed VW more than anyone and the sad part only the lawyers will get anything.

Deals like this bring out the worst in our legal system and government.

It will be interesting to see how our EPA and Germany differ in how they react to this.

To me I think it's not a big deal but it will not be treated as such. I would be ok if they just fined them fixed the cars and go on their way. In this case the intent will be what makes this worse.

[oldshurst442]

Hyper....you keep on harping on the government...

 

It aint OVER regulations dude...

 

Finally, you have come to admit VW commtied fraud...yet still refuse to call a spade a spade...

 

Because you still have this fantasy to blame government...

 

The government HAS to enforce tight regulations because greedy corporations are always trying to slip a fast one, trying to edge the envelope.....

 

Boy...the way you tire of people calling out corporate greed, I tire of people

 

1. defending corporate greed

2. people that blame the government for everything that goes wrong...

 

Its ironic....you probably hate on society that relies on government to help them yet you hate on the government that tries to help also...

 

You think its NOT A BIG DEAL?

 

Dude...its a freakin' criminal act of the highest degree regarding fraud, false advertisement and damaging the environment...

 

Many European countries are on the offensive against VW AG...regarding consumer fraud and for damaging their environment...France, the Scandinavian countries, Italy, and Germany....lead by the UK.

 

Yet YOU are quick to downplay it...and smile because you feel it was clever...like a joke...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What do you think government is there for?

If NOT to protect its people...(yet you probably think its a militia's job tp protect the people from the government)

WHat about the environment?

 

Who should be in charge to oversee crappy corporate CEOs that dont care for the environment?

 

Please dont tell me you have faith in greedy CEOs....

 

You even admit that it was a clever thing for VW CEOs to circumvent...

 

Clever in this case is CRIMINAL!!!

 

WHAT is it that YOU dont UNDERSTAND that these laws are in place to MINIMIZE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT?

 

Or do you think that these high EPA limits are there just for shytes and giggles and just to prevent CEOs from buying there next toy?

 

Because THAT is how YOU sound like...

 

 

YOU want to give free reign to fraudulent people like these VW CEOs?

 

AND THIS IS NOT HAPPENING FROM THE USA like YOU are trying to make it as Americans are leading these campaigns against VW AG...

 

IT REALLY IS EUROPE!!!!

Edited October 4, 2015 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

You talk about how the EPA will differ from Germany?

 

HA!!!

 

Europe does not even test properly...

 

 

 

 

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/03cdb23a-6758-11e5-a57f-21b88f7d973f.html#axzz3ndV0NABj

 

 

The Volkswagen scandal has exposed failures by the European Commission and several of the EU’s national regulators to enforce legislation outlawing the defeat devices used by the German carmaker to cheat in diesel vehicle emissions tests.

The Financial Times contacted the national regulators responsible for vehicle certification in seven of Europe’s biggest carmaking countries to ask whether they had ever conducted inspections for defeat devices since the European Commission declared them illegal in 2007.

Germany, Spain, Slovakia and the Czech Republic said that they had not done so. Britain and France were unable to comment. Only Italy said that it had carried out some inspections.

Europe’s failure to crackdown on software-based defeat devices is triggering calls by some politicians for a US-style regulator to police exhaust fumes.

The EU’s weak regulatory regime around certification of new cars allows carmakers to shop around country by country and choose the national regulator that will approve vehicles through testing. That regulator’s decision is then applied across the EU’s 28 member states.

Some politicians are concerned these arrangements enable carmakers to seek out the most lenient national certification regime.

Politicians are particularly worried about potential conflicts of interest arising from how the carmakers pay for the certification work. They say these payments create an incentive for national regulators — or the private companies often tasked with doing the work — to grant approvals too easily.

“The problem is the system we have created in the EU, where there seems to be a very perverse incentive for national testing authorities to be as easy-going as possible to attract [car companies],” said Gerben-Jan Gerbrandy, a Dutch member of the European Parliament’s environmental committee.

Mr Gerbrandy is calling for the European Commission to have sweeping new powers to conduct intrusive vehicle inspections.

The revelations about VW are an acute embarrassment for EU policymakers, who have been compelled to ask why it took the Environmental Protection Agency, a US regulator, to expose defeat devices.

 

 

The German authorities said they only had a mandate to oversee the current EU framework on NOx emissions through laboratory tests, and could not conduct their own on-the-road monitoring. A significant discrepancy in a car’s NOx emissions during laboratory and subsequent on the road tests would point to the use of a defeat device — something the EPA identified with VW in the US.

[oldshurst442]

Like I said...if the government is NOT strict and NOT careful...slick a-hole CEOs take advantage of loop holes and indiscretions and take advantage...

 

Sometimes greedy politicians are in cahoots with greedy CEOs...yet you only want to expose the government part...and give a free pass on the CEO part...

 

TSK TSK TSK...

[hyperv6]

Hurst if you are replying to any of my post save your effort. I have blocked them as they are taking up too much space. I just don't have time for your multi post rants like many others here. I normally skip them but they are taking up way too much space. You really need to learn to collect and condense your thoughts. On large post is fine but come on consecutive over and over? That is just annoying even if I agreed with what you said.

You can keep doing them but I will not be replying comrade.

[oldshurst442]

ITS OK Hyper....

 

I have countered all points you have to make..

 

Whatever you say...rings false with the proof I give...with links...

 

Alternate reality you have...

Edited October 5, 2015 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

And really, THAT is the irony...

 

You calling my posts rants, yet as the world is unfolding with this VW mess, it seems like YOU are the one ranting...

[ocnblu]

The lawyers will be the only ppl gaining anything from this.  VW owners will get a worse performing car back if they subject their beloved TDi to the proposed changes.  I predict they'll have a hard time getting satisfied customers to allow their cars to be ruined.

[oldshurst442]

So...the owners of Veedubs are gonna blame the lawyers for their faulty car?

 

Or should the owners of faulty VeeDub cars be really blaming VW AG?

 

'Cause Im confused with how some of you folk wanna spin this?

 

And what about the countries?

 

I guess Americans should be blaming the EPA and their government for having high standards for clean air...

 

Because...after all....'twas Obama and Bush and Harper and Al Gore and Angela Merkel and what the helll...Ronald Reagan that made these VW AG CEOs circumvent and cheat American clean air laws as well as the European clean air acts...

 

 

What a psycho way of thought you folk have...

 

But then again...I kinda have figured out OCNBLU...he is one sarcastic dude...maybe its his sarcastic way that he is posting in defence of VW...

 

Whatever....enjoy your VW Diesel...just remember that if VW does not get it fixed...it will be off the streets....because it shoudnt be on it in the first place...and if it runs crappy...gt yourself a lawyer so VW can buy it off you...

 

You know...THAT is an option...that your thoughtless government could actually force upon VW...

Edited October 5, 2015 by oldshurst442

[ocnblu]

I'm pretty sure they love their cars as they are.  They don't want to take home a choked off wheezer that gets worse fuel mileage and has less power.  That's a no-brainer.  The cars are not "faulty" as you call them.  They are just fine.

Edited October 5, 2015 by ocnblu

[oldshurst442]

I'm pretty sure they love their cars as they are.  They don't want to take home a choked off wheezer that gets worse fuel mileage and has less power.  That's a no-brainer.  The cars are not "faulty" as you call them.  They are just fine.

They pollute...

 

Sorry.

[oldshurst442]

http://auto.lapresse.ca/actualites/volkswagen/201510/02/01-4905922-volkswagen-rachete-les-modeles-diesel.php

 

Dans la foulée du scandale des émissions polluantes dévoilé il y a 15 jours, le Groupe Volkswagen propose à ses clients dont les modèles diesel sont visés par la tricherie de racheter leur véhicule contre l'achat d'une voiture à essence, avec un rabais de 2000 $ à la clé, a appris La Presse.

Si le constructeur allemand ne s'est toujours pas prononcé sur un éventuel rappel des véhicules visés, il a par contre décidé de carrément les racheter.

Depuis cette semaine, il est en effet possible de revendre à un concessionnaire Volkswagen son véhicule diesel TDI doté du moteur 2 L pour racheter un véhicule neuf à essence.

Dans un clavardage avec un vendeur d'un concessionnaire Volkswagen de l'île de Montréal, La Presse s'est fait confirmer que cette offre «s'applique aux propriétaires de véhicules Volkswagen 2 litres TDI 2009 à 2015 et qui veulent passer à un moteur à essence». Ce sont ces modèles qui ont été montrés du doigt la semaine dernière par l'Environmental Protection Agency aux États-Unis.

 

From La Presse...a Montreal French Newspaper

TRANSLATION:

 

In the wake of the scandal of  15 days ago,  Volkswagen AG offers its customers a buy back for their diesel VW  and a discount of $ 2,000 on a gasoline VW, learned La Presse.
 


Since this week, it is possible to resell your 2L diesel car at a Volkswagen dealer's to buy a new gasoline vehicle

In a chat with a salesperson of a Volkswagen dealer on the island of Montreal, La Presse has  confirmed that the offer "applies to vehicle owners with  Volkswagen 2-liter TDI from 2009 to 2015 and want to switch to a gasoline motor ". It is these TDI models that were singled out last week by the Environmental Protection Agency in the United States.

 

 

That would be in Montreal....I dont know hw it is in your neck of the woods...but in mine...this is the news...

For those that are actually interested in living in reality and not in some bubble...

 

 

 

And do you folk know what that means?

 

Its that if VW fixes these TDIs to where they are supposed to be...which is to run clean...but crappy...because THAT is how the TDI product from VW SHOULD have been in the first place...well...reality is that VW's TDI product that runs clean and within the law...is shyte...

 

For those that ike their VW product the way it...and DONT WANT THAT fix...be prepared to NOT BEING ABLE TO DRIVE IT as its NOT LEGAL!!!

 

If you folk have a hard time with that...

 

DEAL WITH IT...

You are all adults...sometimes life sucks...and its the stupid greedy VW AG CEOs that you have to thank in THIS case...

 

DEAL WITH IT!!!

Edited October 5, 2015 by oldshurst442

[ocnblu]

?  Oh my

[oldshurst442]

Lions and Tigers and Bears...

 

 

OH MY!!!

[Drew Dowdell]

Ocn, why do you think the performance of the TDIs will suffer post fix? Mpgs might, slightly, but not performance from what I've read.

[ocnblu]

Oh really?  I've been reading too and that's what I took from it.  Your version is the lesser (not lessor) of two evils.  I hope you are right.  Still, MPG is one of the paramount concerns of a diesel buyer.

[Suaviloquent]

Of course, hyper, if every company had to internalize the risk of polluting the environment, we'd have no cars on the road today.

 

But sadly the rules, the way they were enforced before weren't stringent enough. If VW's only competitive advantage is diesels and the U.S. market's regulatory environment too strict; the only prudent thing to do was to never attempt to sell diesels here. Or go through the necessary hurdles no matter how meddling. But how could any company internalize the risk of harmful emissions, you say? Well, pretty simple; list the potential liability as limitless. That ought to allow the bean counters to scare the engineers from doing something like this.

 

A cunning and practical thing to do was deception. But ultimately questions raised by private concerns, not the government led to this series of events.

 

Now you tell me, is it the U.S. government being so strict, or did their lapse of judgement; their allowance of letting manufacturers 'self-test' that led to this?

 

Who asked the questions? If the academics didn't, would it be fair to say VW would not be in a hole that they are in today? Yet someone, somewhere would have had their health degraded due to proximity to harmful NOx emmissions.

 

Even with strict rules, government didn't get in VW's way. So the only logical critique of the regulators is how untimely their regulating activities really are. 

 

Incompetence is forgivable, but actus reus with mens rea, isn't.

[hyperv6]

Of course, hyper, if every company had to internalize the risk of polluting the environment, we'd have no cars on the road today.

 

But sadly the rules, the way they were enforced before weren't stringent enough. If VW's only competitive advantage is diesels and the U.S. market's regulatory environment too strict; the only prudent thing to do was to never attempt to sell diesels here. Or go through the necessary hurdles no matter how meddling. But how could any company internalize the risk of harmful emissions, you say? Well, pretty simple; list the potential liability as limitless. That ought to allow the bean counters to scare the engineers from doing something like this.

 

A cunning and practical thing to do was deception. But ultimately questions raised by private concerns, not the government led to this series of events.

 

Now you tell me, is it the U.S. government being so strict, or did their lapse of judgement; their allowance of letting manufacturers 'self-test' that led to this?

 

Who asked the questions? If the academics didn't, would it be fair to say VW would not be in a hole that they are in today? Yet someone, somewhere would have had their health degraded due to proximity to harmful NOx emmissions.

 

Even with strict rules, government didn't get in VW's way. So the only logical critique of the regulators is how untimely their regulating activities really are. 

 

Incompetence is forgivable, but actus reus with mens rea, isn't.

Here is the deal. The regulations present a great challenge to increased cost of Diesels in the US. Lutz struggled with this when he was at GM for years. In Europe the standards are less and it helps on the cost.

The regulations was the seed to cheat. As for the self testing that is the open door to make it easier to try something like this. The EPA and DOT have proven they can not regulate for many reasons. One they are a bloated government agency and also to be fair we have added so many regulations anymore they can not keep up with it all either.

The fact is government is not going to be able to keep up with it all anymore. When that happened people exploit cracks in the system. The desperate times ahead with crazy high regulations will make more tempted to beat the honor system.

Just look at the Automakers in Europe today they have gone to the regulators in Europe and told them they can not meet the new coming standards.

This is where the Government and Industry need to work closer together to set standards and time lines that are realistic. As it is now we have people passing laws that are driven to work daily. Some do not even own cars.

Drew I expect some changes in the performance with the VW changes. With a Diesel more fuel is more power and more emissions. Odds are they will cut back on fuel with the programing and the addition of the Blu Fluid tanks will clean them up. As for MPG it is possible with the loss of torque MPG could be effected. One of The keys for MPG in a Diesel is the massive torque. We are seeing this with the turbo DI engines as the torque gets them rolling more efficiently and you get off the gas sooner.

Nest result will be a little less HP and MPG. How much only VW knows at this point.