Dodge News: The 2023 Dodge Hornet Flies Out Of The Hive

[Robert Hall]

A buddy of min in AZ has 3 Land Cruisers--all bought used w/ high mileage..a mid '70s 2dr FJ40, an '84 FJ 60, and a '90s FJ 80.  A few years ago when he was having trouble passing emissions tests w/ the '84 (finicky tuning), he took it to a shop in Seattle that retrofitted it with a GM LS e-rod crate engine... been very happy with it since then, takes it off roading and camping a lot in AZ. 

[ccap41]

59 minutes ago, David said:

I do get the thought due to being the cult of Toyota Land Ceuisers is so true, they pay top dollar for an over rated SUV.

What's overrated about a Land Cruiser?

This is the first I'm hearing of it being overrated. 

[David]

38 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

What's overrated about a Land Cruiser?

This is the first I'm hearing of it being overrated. 

So far I have heard that the Land Cruiser is the Japanese equal to the Land Rover and everyone talks about how capable they are, yet while we have seen old and new Land Rovers off the basic dirt road in actual real hard environments, I have yet to see the Land Cruiser other than at the mall and basic US roads. I consider them overrated as I hear from folks all the time about how capable they are but have not really ever seen them marketed that way or shown in any news feed or even movies. While I have not searched YouTube and I am sure there are some videos of a Land Cruiser off road in heavy muck, I have not even seen them up at ski resorts, so when folks say they are capable awesome off road SUVs, I have to say overrated as I have not seen them in the woods, mountains, ocean shores, etc. I see them plenty around the PNW, but they all seem to be soccer mom mobiles, more of a status symbol than a true used off road auto.

So that gets the overrated from me and now as Drew points out how few are produced and yet I see them all the time around here, I have to say that they are more of a status symbol and soccer mom than used for what one would think they are engineered for.

To me, the Land Cruiser is much like the rest of Toyota, Overrated on Quality, long life, etc. when in reality, more of just another average auto.

Now back on the subject of the Dodge Hornet and how it will be manufactured on the same line as the Alfa twin, I have to really question quality and reliability. My gut tells me Stellantis is tired of paying large sums to buy credits to offset the profits of Dodge and the emission nightmare of the Dodge V8 SRT variations they have.

[ccap41]

10 minutes ago, David said:

I have yet to see the Land Cruiser other than at the mall and basic US roads.

Do you frequent off road trails? 

11 minutes ago, David said:

I consider them overrated as I hear from folks all the time about how capable they are but have not really ever seen them marketed that way or shown in any news feed or even movies.

You're lying to everybody here or you don't watch many/any movies. 

12 minutes ago, David said:

I see them plenty around the PNW, but they all seem to be soccer mom mobiles, more of a status symbol than a true used off road auto.

That's no different than Range Rovers, Wranglers, G Wagens, Raptors, etc. They're all used on pavement 99.9% of the time but that has no bearing on how capable they are off-road. I've never seen with my eyes somebody off-roading a G Wagen, but that doesn't mean the three lockers and solid axels don't work. 

15 minutes ago, David said:

I have to say that they are more of a status symbol and soccer mom than used for what one would think they are engineered for.

And the Escalade is different from this description, how? Literally every BOF SUV fits this description. 

[smk4565]

9 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Going to have to interject a bit of this one. Are Toyotas perfect? Absolutely not. However, this bunk about old busted models deserve a retort. Here is a 2003 Lexus LX 470 with 203K miles (low for that year) and I see none of the issues that you seem to think they suffer. 
 

https://charlotte.craigslist.org/ctd/d/charlotte-2004-lexus-lx470-loaded-best/7523321702.html

 

And try another almost 20 year old LX. No headlight yellowing. No cracked dash and this also has more than 200K miles so it’s not Ike either of these were babied.  
https://greensboro.craigslist.org/ctd/d/greensboro-2003-lexus-lx-470/7517568006.html

 

I can find quite a few near 20 year 4-Runners that will shame the Trailblazer and Explorers of those years (mostly because you’ll find more left actually running after all this time). 
 

I get the criticisms but most are way overblown. 

Exactly.  All day long they are people that will pay near $20k for a 15-25 year old Land Cruiser and it’s Lexus twin.  It’s not my cup of tea, but the cult following exists.

[smk4565]

6 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

LOL wut?  They were literally the subject of a class action and frame recall.

Ford was just ordered in court to pay $1.7 billion in damages for a F250 roof that collapse and killed the occupants.  And Ford will appeal, and they’ll still F-series trucks, just like Toyota will keep selling.

Toyota was the #1 selling brand in the USA and the world, the Corolla is the best selling car in the world with 1.15 million last year.  They must be doing something right.

And it isn’t like the Corolla is luxurious or sporty (save for the GR 300 hp version that wasn’t on sale last year).  But they are reliable, they last, they are cheap to maintain and that’s what sells.

[David]

56 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Do you frequent off road trails? 

You're lying to everybody here or you don't watch many/any movies. 

That's no different than Range Rovers, Wranglers, G Wagens, Raptors, etc. They're all used on pavement 99.9% of the time but that has no bearing on how capable they are off-road. I've never seen with my eyes somebody off-roading a G Wagen, but that doesn't mean the three lockers and solid axels don't work. 

And the Escalade is different from this description, how? Literally every BOF SUV fits this description. 

I probably frequent off road trails in my Escalade more than most do in any luxury, Premium or Regular SUV.

I love to watch movies, but I honestly do not recall one where I saw the Toyota Land Cruiser. Please point out a movie if it is common in it as I would love to know, but the action, sci/fi movies I watch I have never seen one. I see more GM products especially in the Korean Dramas I watch with my wife than Toyota Products.

I would agree with you that 99.99999% of luxury, Premium and Regular based SUVs are never used anywhere else than on the local pavement. Quoting the G-Wagon is an Apples to Orange comparison since the G-Wagon is based first in the Military side of life and then a retail version was made to maximize profits for Mercedes. I am not aware that the Land Cruiser was ever built as a Military product first.

I agree with you the Escalade is a BOF SUV that does it's job very well for those that have actually taken it off road for a luxury product that does not have as the Military Grade G-Wagon has of 3 lockers with those solid axels that have now been proven to not be any better than modern Coil Over suspension systems.

[David]

24 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Ford was just ordered in court to pay $1.7 billion in damages for a F250 roof that collapse and killed the occupants.  And Ford will appeal, and they’ll still F-series trucks, just like Toyota will keep selling.

Toyota was the #1 selling brand in the USA and the world, the Corolla is the best selling car in the world with 1.15 million last year.  They must be doing something right.

And it isn’t like the Corolla is luxurious or sporty (save for the GR 300 hp version that wasn’t on sale last year).  But they are reliable, they last, they are cheap to maintain and that’s what sells.

I will laugh in regard to the cheap to maintain and reliable as most Corolla's are manual everything. This is where the myth of reliable comes from, Toyota sells a ton of manual everything auto's, Manual Windows, Manual Door locks, manual, manual, manual and they just work and last. 

Yet take a look at more automated electronic stuff and Toyota like everyone else is just average and in some cases worse.

My neighbor talks about how great his 2002 Toyota pickup is as it has not had any major issues, everything still works, and he calls it bullet proof. I then pointed out, his is a base model truck, manual transmission, manual windows, manual door locks, no AC, basic AM/FM radio, manual seats. This truck is garage kept, driven less than 7K miles a year. Course nothing has broken or worn out, like me he works from home and barely drives. As you move up to Toyota Auto's in the last 10 years, lots of recalls and broken stuff as the manual stuff is no longer selling when the buyers are wanting everything automated and electronic.

Just as GM was King, Toyota took the crown, but the future is not promised or guaranteed and as we move into the EV world, Toyota will probably be kicked off the as King of the Hill.

Toyota offering to buy back bZ4X electric SUVs with wheels that might fall off - CNN

This does not bode well for Toyota who is having to play catch up to the rest of the industry.

[David]

Now back to the topic at hand, 2023 Dodge Hornet PHEV and others are getting more pictures and info of it out and testing in Europe.

SPOTTED: 2023 Dodge Hornet C-SUV Prototype! (moparinsiders.com)

Now this story Alfa Romeo CEO Promises the Tonale Will Bury Its Bad Reputation Regarding Reliability - autoevolution is something of what I think many of us have in mind and why the wait and see attitude of a Dodge based on an Alfa. To quote the story, it takes owning two Alfa's to end up with one good Alfa. 🙄

While the CEO of Alfa says the Tonale is what they believe will change people's perceptions, this also is part of the bigger overall problem where the current Alfa's have been nothing but buggy money pits and as such, I would not expect any difference with the Tonale and since the Dodge Hornet 2023 is based on this same auto, I expect it to be up in the air in regard to reliability until proven.

[smk4565]

29 minutes ago, David said:

Now back to the topic at hand, 2023 Dodge Hornet PHEV and others are getting more pictures and info of it out and testing in Europe.

SPOTTED: 2023 Dodge Hornet C-SUV Prototype! (moparinsiders.com)

Now this story Alfa Romeo CEO Promises the Tonale Will Bury Its Bad Reputation Regarding Reliability - autoevolution is something of what I think many of us have in mind and why the wait and see attitude of a Dodge based on an Alfa. To quote the story, it takes owning two Alfa's to end up with one good Alfa. 🙄

While the CEO of Alfa says the Tonale is what they believe will change people's perceptions, this also is part of the bigger overall problem where the current Alfa's have been nothing but buggy money pits and as such, I would not expect any difference with the Tonale and since the Dodge Hornet 2023 is based on this same auto, I expect it to be up in the air in regard to reliability until proven.

They said the Guilia was going to be reliable and not like Alfa's of the past, and it wasn't, likewise with the Stelvio, likewise with every Maserati currently on sale.  I don't believe him for a second, and if they want to put their money where their mouth is, offer a better warranty than Hyundai or on these. They couldn't make a Guilia with a 2 liter turbo 4 reliable, which I think every car company on earth has a 2 liter turbo 4, that is like the most basic and common engine out there.  Now they are going to go to a high boost 1.3 liter with an electric drivetrain mixed in, when they have zero history of hybrid powertrains, compared to Toyota who has 25 years of doing it.  I don't trust it.

[Drew Dowdell]

13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

They said the Guilia was going to be reliable and not like Alfa's of the past, and it wasn't, likewise with the Stelvio, likewise with every Maserati currently on sale.  I don't believe him for a second, and if they want to put their money where their mouth is, offer a better warranty than Hyundai or on these. They couldn't make a Guilia with a 2 liter turbo 4 reliable, which I think every car company on earth has a 2 liter turbo 4, that is like the most basic and common engine out there.  Now they are going to go to a high boost 1.3 liter with an electric drivetrain mixed in, when they have zero history of hybrid powertrains, compared to Toyota who has 25 years of doing it.  I don't trust it.

Unless you've heard something I haven't, it isn't the 2-liter that is the problem.  That same 2-liter is used in the Wrangler and Cherokee.  I've always understood it to be the electronics.

They don't have zero history of hybrids. They have the Pacifica PHEV, Wrangler 4xe, Grand Cherokee 4xe, several Citroëns.

You're just spreading F.U.D. about the 1.3T. It's been running around in Jeep Renegades and Fiat 500Xes since 2018, and in the Tonale it runs at the exact same output as the 2018 Renegade.

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, David said:

I love to watch movies, but I honestly do not recall one where I saw the Toyota Land Cruiser. Please point out a movie if it is common in it as I would love to know, but the action, sci/fi movies I watch I have never seen one. I see more GM products especially in the Korean Dramas I watch with my wife than Toyota Products.

https://www.imcdb.org/vehicles_make-Toyota_model-Land+Cruiser.html

There are 145 pages at 30 results per page, 4350 movies/shows with Land Cruisers in them. 

14 hours ago, David said:

I would agree with you that 99.99999% of luxury, Premium and Regular based SUVs are never used anywhere else than on the local pavement. Quoting the G-Wagon is an Apples to Orange comparison since the G-Wagon is based first in the Military side of life and then a retail version was made to maximize profits for Mercedes. I am not aware that the Land Cruiser was ever built as a Military product first.

Why does the origin of the vehicle matter? They're built and advertised as luxury vehicles 100% of the time since being on sale in the US. 

 

14 hours ago, David said:

I agree with you the Escalade is a BOF SUV that does it's job very well for those that have actually taken it off road for a luxury product that does not have as the Military Grade G-Wagon has of 3 lockers with those solid axels that have now been proven to not be any better than modern Coil Over suspension systems.

Do you have proof of the articulation of the modern coil over system? That is really the only advantage of a solid axel over independent suspension, from my knowledge. 

The Bronco comes REALLY close to matching a Wrangler in articulation but it still isn't the same as solid axels, strictly when you're talking about tackling off-road obstacles. 

[Drew Dowdell]

15 hours ago, David said:

While the CEO of Alfa says the Tonale is what they believe will change people's perceptions, this also is part of the bigger overall problem where the current Alfa's have been nothing but buggy money pits and as such, I would not expect any difference with the Tonale and since the Dodge Hornet 2023 is based on this same auto, I expect it to be up in the air in regard to reliability until proven.

The saving grace for the Tonale/Hornet is that it is a platform mate to the Compass, Renegade, Fiat 500X, and Fiat 500L.  It's not like the Giulia and Stelvio which were on the all new Giorgio platform. So they've got some practice building it.

Giorgio is what underpins the new Grand Cherokee, btw.

[smk4565]

11 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Unless you've heard something I haven't, it isn't the 2-liter that is the problem.  That same 2-liter is used in the Wrangler and Cherokee.  I've always understood it to be the electronics.

They don't have zero history of hybrids. They have the Pacifica PHEV, Wrangler 4xe, Grand Cherokee 4xe, several Citroëns.

You're just spreading F.U.D. about the 1.3T. It's been running around in Jeep Renegades and Fiat 500Xes since 2018, and in the Tonale it runs at the exact same output as the 2018 Renegade.

None of those cars listed can be considered reliable.   Car and Driver did a long term test on the Guilia Quadrafolio and it was a maintenance nightmare.  2400 miles before the first break down, the rear diff needed replaced at 10,000 miles and it took 31 days to get one and that is before covid supply chain mess was a thing.    In 14 months they had the car it spend 80 days out of commission, that's ridiculous.

Every time a new Alfa comes out, they makes this "oh we fixed the reliability, it isn't like the old days" statement.  Alfa also said they were going to sell 250,000 cars a year globally and they hit like 123,000 in 2019 and have dropped since.  Now they say they'll sell 300,000 a year within 4-5 years.   This is the biggest empty promise brand ever.  

I assume Dodge Hornet buyers will need to get to work, not sure what they'll do then their car breaks down and they have to wait 1 month to get parts from Italy.  And I have seen worse with collision repairs, not uncommon to wait 6+ months for something like fenders or tailgates on a Jeep Renegade in the past year.

[Drew Dowdell]

13 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

None of those cars listed can be considered reliable.   Car and Driver did a long term test on the Guilia Quadrafolio and it was a maintenance nightmare.  2400 miles before the first break down, the rear diff needed replaced at 10,000 miles and it took 31 days to get one and that is before covid supply chain mess was a thing.    In 14 months they had the car it spend 80 days out of commission, that's ridiculous.

Every time a new Alfa comes out, they makes this "oh we fixed the reliability, it isn't like the old days" statement.  Alfa also said they were going to sell 250,000 cars a year globally and they hit like 123,000 in 2019 and have dropped since.  Now they say they'll sell 300,000 a year within 4-5 years.   This is the biggest empty promise brand ever.  

I assume Dodge Hornet buyers will need to get to work, not sure what they'll do then their car breaks down and they have to wait 1 month to get parts from Italy.  And I have seen worse with collision repairs, not uncommon to wait 6+ months for something like fenders or tailgates on a Jeep Renegade in the past year.

Those delays are hitting everyone. My co-worker’s Tesla has spent more time back at Tesla than in her hands.  She’s probably going to try and get it lemoned out. It’s got less than 3000 miles on it.

[David]

12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

not sure what they'll do then their car breaks down and they have to wait 1 month to get parts from Italy.  And I have seen worse with collision repairs, not uncommon to wait 6+ months for something like fenders or tailgates on a Jeep Renegade in the past year.

This is no different than for the M series from BMW or the AMG series from your beloved Mercedes. All have many hand-built parts that take time. A friend of mine and an executive at Dell Jason has both and the last time his M3 had to go in for repairs, the parts took almost 6 months. Good thing he had his AMG to drive then, but once he got the BMW back, his AMG blew a transmission and that is still 4 months now in the dealership awaiting parts. 

Do not say this is a Dodge thing when every auto company out there especially when it comes to performance parts, especially when they are hand-built take time.

In 2010, the transmission in my SS blew and with it, took out the cooling system as well. Due to the Trailblazer SS being a Corvette with a SUV body, the hand-built transmission took 2 months to get along with all the rest of the parts. GM put me in a new Tahoe for the two months which was nice but no SS. Since then, no major issues at all with my SS, but still the hand-built parts took time and especially when they have to come to the US from Germany, expect long delays!

[ccap41]

...a Trailblazer SS is not a Corvette with an SUV body... It's a BOF SUV with a Corvette engine. 

[David]

6 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

...a Trailblazer SS is not a Corvette with an SUV body... It's a BOF SUV with a Corvette engine. 

To quote the folks that built it, they started with the Corvette powertrain and built an SUV around it. It is a Corvett DNA based SUV. Yes BOF, but still it started with the idea of using the Corvette Powertrain. 

The Trailbazer SS was built yearly from 2004 to 2009 in limited numbers, badged as such and the corvette heritage is clearly on the engine covers and made aware on the auto. This is what started all the rumors that Corvette was going to add a badged Corvette SUV and 4 door car. 

This continues now as the rumors out of GM is that the Electric Corvette will be in the traditional 2 door version but could be joined by a 4 door and SUV version.

[ccap41]

2 minutes ago, David said:

To quote the folks that built it, they started with the Corvette powertrain and built an SUV around it. It is a Corvett DNA based SUV. Yes BOF, but still it started with the idea of using the Corvette Powertrain. 

That is suuuuch a longshot to try and say it is a Corvette with an SUV body. That would imply that the frame and chassis are also Corvette, which they are not. 

[surreal1272]

13 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Those delays are hitting everyone. My co-worker’s Tesla has spent more time back at Tesla than in her hands.  She’s probably going to try and get it lemoned out. It’s got less than 3000 miles on it.

While it’s true that there are delays for everyone, there is a big caveat here and that is once those worldwide delays are done, there will still be parts delays from Alfa and Fiat, much like Land Rover. The parts are made there and only there and will be delayed getting here for that very reason. That’s an issue for most folks, especially with a notorious pile from Italy. 

15 minutes ago, David said:

To quote the folks that built it, they started with the Corvette powertrain and built an SUV around it. It is a Corvett DNA based SUV. Yes BOF, but still it started with the idea of using the Corvette Powertrain. 

The Trailbazer SS was built yearly from 2004 to 2009 in limited numbers, badged as such and the corvette heritage is clearly on the engine covers and made aware on the auto. This is what started all the rumors that Corvette was going to add a badged Corvette SUV and 4 door car. 

This continues now as the rumors out of GM is that the Electric Corvette will be in the traditional 2 door version but could be joined by a 4 door and SUV version.

Come on man. It’s still a Trailblazer, end of story. That Vette heritage does not change the source material here. 

[oldshurst442]

18 minutes ago, David said:

To quote the folks that built it, they started with the Corvette powertrain and built an SUV around it. It is a Corvett DNA based SUV. Yes BOF, but still it started with the idea of using the Corvette Powertrain. 

The Trailbazer SS was built yearly from 2004 to 2009 in limited numbers, badged as such and the corvette heritage is clearly on the engine covers and made aware on the auto. This is what started all the rumors that Corvette was going to add a badged Corvette SUV and 4 door car. 

 

 

 

[oldshurst442]

1. A Trailblazer SS is just the 1969 or 1970 Chevelle SS that we never got in 2006 in SUV form.
2. BOF hasnt been a Corvette thing since 1984.  The C4.  

 

Sorry.  Try again! 

[surreal1272]

On 8/23/2022 at 5:06 PM, David said:

So far I have heard that the Land Cruiser is the Japanese equal to the Land Rover and everyone talks about how capable they are, yet while we have seen old and new Land Rovers off the basic dirt road in actual real hard environments, I have yet to see the Land Cruiser other than at the mall and basic US roads. I consider them overrated as I hear from folks all the time about how capable they are but have not really ever seen them marketed that way

That can be said for every SUV out there (the mall crowd). However, calling it underrated or otherwise trying to diminish it comes without facts. They are proven off-road SUVs worldwide. It’s not even debatable. They have a resale value that reflects it reliability and durability so it really doesn’t need any further explanation (something it shames Land Rover on). It just doesn’t. 

For the record, you’ll find old FJs and LCs in the AZ desert, hitting the dusty trails there.

 

And you folks keep bagging on the Tacoma/Tundra examples from 20 years gap as some secret indicator that Toyotas are $h! because of them. I am more than happy to bring up the “quality” stuff from GM and Ford from that same time period if you’d like but we will run out of pages here doing that lol. 

[ccap41]

Also, that transmission that needed replacing in 2010 isn't a Corvette Transmission either. The Vette has a transaxle in the rear and your TBSS does not. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by ccap41

[Drew Dowdell]

We're waaaaay off track here.

The Hornet is basically Compass and Renegade mechanicals in an Italian body.  There's not going to be long waits from Italy except for possibly body panels if you wreck it.   The mechanicals are global engines and transmissions already used in vehicles sold in the US. Uconnect is off the shelf.

[surreal1272]

Global or not, they do not carry the majority of replacement parts here. They have to be shipped in which leads to delays. This is from a Fiat 500 group talking about that very thing. 
https://www.fiat500owners.com/threads/love-my-fiat-but-hard-to-find-parts.119153/

[ccap41]

I have no doubts that this will continue to be an Italian unreliable POS though.. But it seems like a compelling product. 

[Drew Dowdell]

36 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Global or not, they do not carry the majority of replacement parts here. They have to be shipped in which leads to delays. This is from a Fiat 500 group talking about that very thing. 
https://www.fiat500owners.com/threads/love-my-fiat-but-hard-to-find-parts.119153/

Come on man.... that's from 2016 for an unrelated oddball car from 2012.   He's talking about his car having an oddball size tire and complaining about spark plugs.  Rock Auto has sparkplug 12 options for his car. Walmart has 11. The O'Reilly's up the street has 5 options in stock that I could pick up in 10 minutes.  That 1.4T has been used in a gazillion Renegades since then.

His car takes 15" tires which are not going to be a Hornet/Tonale thing... but Tire rack has over 25 options for him.

I'm actually surprised that @smk4565 isn't ragging on the Tonale/Hornet for being a Compass rebadge.

Let's be intellectually honest here...

[surreal1272]

That was just one example @Drew Dowdell. It is still true and has been since day one, which is 10000% intellectually honest and it’s a bit insulting to imply that is not happening here. The parts are higher than average and a bitch to get in a timely manner. It’s really that simple and it is one of the reasons why Fiat and Alfa have been a big ole fail here. 
 

And I’m not talking about just spark plugs either. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by surreal1272

[oldshurst442]

I wanna know why are we obsessing so much on reliability?

Its clear that foreign car owners of the Toyota and Mercedes kind dont hold the same standards of reliability when they still shun vehicles from Detroit because had they kept the same outrage they do against Detroit, they would have NEVER bought a German or Japanese car in the 1st place since German and Japanese cars were atrocious wwaaaaaayyyyyy  before Detroit was. 

And, even for a very very, very very VERY brief time between the mid-80s to the mid 90s for the Japanese cars, that Japan DID produce reliable cars, Japanese cars just went down the loo again.  And that would be for a select few Japanese models that were reliable. Most were shyttier than anything that Detroit produced.  For every Camry that was reliable, there was a Cressida and a Celica that was shyttier than anything coming out of Detroit at that time that was the 1980s.   Sure a 1980s Corolla and a Hilux were indestructible so to speak.  All Toyotas even as late as the 1980s, were rust buckets...  Corrosion problems far worse than anything coming out of Detroit.

As far as German cars go...

Nothing German can be called reliable at ANYTIME after WW2.

With the exception of MODERN Porsche 911s and a W123 Mercedes.

the hypocrisy is outstanding!!! And Im fed up of it!  Its been since the 1990s that Im fed up with this shytty narrative!!!

[surreal1272]

Mmmkay there bud.

[Drew Dowdell]

3 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

That was just one example @Drew Dowdell. It is still true and has been since day one, which is 10000% intellectually honest and it’s a bit insulting to imply that is not happening here. The parts are higher than average and a bitch to get in a timely manner. It’s really that simple and it is one of the reasons why Fiat and Alfa have been a big ole fail here. 
 

And I’m not talking about just spark plugs either. 

Again, this is off the shelf, parts-bin stuff we're talking.  The Hornet's PHEV engine is in ~200k Jeep Renegades and another 10s of thousands of Fiats in the US. It's not a new engine, having been in production since 2018 The 2.0T has been powering the Cherokee and Wrangler since 2018.  It's built both in Italy and in Kokomo, Indiana. The Hornet will obviously be getting the Italian built one, but it's the same design.   The 6-speed is developed by BorgWarner and has been used in the Dart, Renegade, 500L, 500X, and Suzuki SX4.  The 9-speed has been in every FWD Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep since 2013. It's also been in or currently in the Pathfinder, QX60, Honda CR-V/Pilot/Odyssey/Passport/Ridgeline, Acura TLX / MDX, Land Rover Evoque / Discovery Sport, Jaguar E-Pace, and Fiat 500x. You're talking well over a million vehicles on the road today with that transmission.

The interior switch gear looks to be mostly the stuff from the latest Jeep redesigned interiors. The shifter, center console, and door controls are from the Compass, the start button and HVAC controls are from the Grand Wagoneer/Cherokee.  uConnect is in everything, and Chrysler has been doing TFT gauge pods for years.

The standard @smk4565 rant about parts sharing would normally apply here, except that in this case it is an advantage because nothing is particularly rare or unique.  There's no reason to believe that the Hornet would be any less reliable than a Compass or Renegade, and aside from body panels and interior trim, there is nothing particularly unique about it.

Sorry you got yourself insulted.... but parts availability for these isn't going to be an issue.

[David]

43 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

I wanna know why are we obsessing so much on reliability?

Its clear that foreign car owners of the Toyota and Mercedes kind dont hold the same standards of reliability when they still shun vehicles from Detroit because had they kept the same outrage they do against Detroit, they would have NEVER bought a German or Japanese car in the 1st place since German and Japanese cars were atrocious wwaaaaaayyyyyy  before Detroit was. 

And, even for a very very, very very VERY brief time between the mid-80s to the mid 90s for the Japanese cars, that Japan DID produce reliable cars, Japanese cars just went down the loo again.  And that would be for a select few Japanese models that were reliable. Most were shyttier than anything that Detroit produced.  For every Camry that was reliable, there was a Cressida and a Celica that was shyttier than anything coming out of Detroit at that time that was the 1980s.   Sure a 1980s Corolla and a Hilux were indestructible so to speak.  All Toyotas even as late as the 1980s, were rust buckets...  Corrosion problems far worse than anything coming out of Detroit.

As far as German cars go...

Nothing German can be called reliable at ANYTIME after WW2.

With the exception of MODERN Porsche 911s and a W123 Mercedes.

the hypocrisy is outstanding!!! And Im fed up of it!  Its been since the 1990s that Im fed up with this shytty narrative!!!

I think you need a hug!

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

We're waaaaay off track here.

The Hornet is basically Compass and Renegade mechanicals in an Italian body.  There's not going to be long waits from Italy except for possibly body panels if you wreck it.   The mechanicals are global engines and transmissions already used in vehicles sold in the US. Uconnect is off the shelf.

Probably all true as far as parts go.

[oldshurst442]

12 minutes ago, David said:

I think you need a hug!

 

Naw!

I just need folk to be consistent with their beefs. Toyota has a perception of being reliable. False hopes. Camry and Corolla.  And even those have had shytty years along the way with no accountability from the fans.

Th Hilux, from the late 1990s and early 2000s had frames failing...

Not a phoquing peep of dissent. 

 @surreal1272  

you do have a level head. Far more than 99% of all posters I have encountered along the way. But common buddy...  Toyota aint all that...  Same crap from lazy 80s and 90s GM, Toyota has been.  And in some cases.  WORSE!!! 

 

 

[oldshurst442]

So...why bother with the reliability angle?  It always leads to nowhere. 

Many of us see and hear what we wanna see and hear and dismiss anything contrary to what we perceive to be the truth.

And I know it goes both ways...   Rabid fans are just that, rabid fans.

So...why bother with the reliability angle? 

 

[David]

25 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

So...why bother with the reliability angle?  It always leads to nowhere. 

Many of us see and hear what we wanna see and hear and dismiss anything contrary to what we perceive to be the truth.

And I know it goes both ways...   Rabid fans are just that, rabid fans.

So...why bother with the reliability angle? 

 

I would also like to inject that while some have bitched about GM reliability of the 80's and 90's, I can also point to the real-world facts that even the worse engineered auto can last a long time if the recommended maintenance is done and even that depends on the attention to detail by the person doing the maintenance.

A perfect example is that my brother-in-law bought a 1998 Buick Regal GS with the supercharged 3800 which has been a strong solid engine as long as you did the required maintenance especially around the supercharger. At this time, he also had a Honda Accord that he just drove for almost 200,000 miles before the engine died as he never did maintenance. He drove the Buick and by 60,000 miles the engine blew. He called it a crap American car when it was his own fault of never doing oil changes or any maintenance as required for the supercharger. This is one of the biggest problems I see when people bitch about the 70's, 80's and 90's. Sadly, most people never crack the seal to read their owners guide to see what the recommended maintenance schedule is.

Any auto can last when properly taken care of, yet we all know that every auto company has built lemons right off the assembly line, so nothing is promised to be bullet proof. Sadly, common sense on maintenance is not so common and this is why autos are seen as appliances by the bulk of society. People buy an auto, drive an auto and unless the auto tells them they need this or that done, they just drive till something breaks or dies.

This is another reason I think Electric will be better for the bulk of society with less to break and maintain. The Lemming society of drivers needs simple autos.

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

Naw!

I just need folk to be consistent with their beefs. Toyota has a perception of being reliable. False hopes. Camry and Corolla.  And even those have had shytty years along the way with no accountability from the fans.

Th Hilux, from the late 1990s and early 2000s had frames failing...

Not a phoquing peep of dissent. 

 @surreal1272  

you do have a level head. Far more than 99% of all posters I have encountered along the way. But common buddy...  Toyota aint all that...  Same crap from lazy 80s and 90s GM, Toyota has been.  And in some cases.  WORSE!!! 

 

 

As a former owner of four different Toyotas, and host of other makes, I will respectfully disagree with the Toyota assessment here. Next, someone is going to tell me that Fiats are better than Toyotas and I’m just not ready to laugh that hard. 

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

As a former owner of four different Toyotas, and host of other makes, I will respectfully disagree with the Toyota assessment here. Next, someone is going to tell me that Fiats are better than Toyotas and I’m just not ready to laugh that hard. 

cool and all...

but...

Two things with that.

1. Anecdotal evidence goes both ways.  I got 4 very close acquaintances  that owned Toyotas  that had failures with them.  2 of those people are a Toyota sheeple that to this day defend their unreliable Toyotas.  1 is indifferent and the other swears to never buy another Toyota product ever again.  An early 2000s Toyota Corolla owner whose dashboard cracked 3 years in, changed it for a mid 2000s Camry  who had all kinds of electrical problems that prevented the car from starting several times  but will never buy American because his dad bought a Chevy Citation that one time back in the summer of '82.   Neighbour has a Venza, with constant transmission problems and is just now trading it in for another Toyota.   A Hino owner whose endless problems including transmission problems prompted him to swear off Toyotas forever.  A mid 2000s Toyota Sienna owner and yet again,  another transmission problem. It exploded on him but is the type to not give a shyte.  Bought a Honda minivan and the same thing happened to that Honda... transmission problems. Bought a Dodge minivan and is just as much as a POS as the other two.  But like I said, he doesnt care about whining. He has kept the Dodge longer than either Japanese van, for whatever reason.   But do my anecdotes count?
2. Since anecdotes is what we are going with, have you owned a legit Fiat? Forget about my anecdote as it hasnt been my personal experience with Toyota, but since you wanna go with personal experiences, has a Fiat been in your ownership or is it just hearsay that Fiats suck?  

Listen, I know damn well that Fiats suck.

Point being is that Toyotas are no more reliable than anybody else.  Same issues, if not worse.  Failing phoquing frames during the height of the supposed Toyota reliability thing (the late 1990s) is a huge phoquing thing.  As big if not bigger than anything Detroit has done...    Not a phoquing peep though how Toyota sucks, but that 80s Chev Citation thing...oh phoquing boy!

Cadillac?

How 'bout sticky Lexus pedals and engine sludges...

Toyotas were rust buckets well into the 1990s.  

But lets defend Toyota until the ends of the earth.

Boggles my mind with how much we allow Toyota to phoque up...

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by oldshurst442

[ccap41]

12 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Point being is that Toyotas are no more reliable than anybody else.  Same issues, if not worse.

I know I don't have some proof to back this up, but it just feels like you're using your anecdotal evidence to say that. 

While I don't think Toyotas are some magical world marvel that every one will last a million miles with minimal maintenance, I still find it hard to believe that they aren't in the top tier. They sell millions of vehicles every year solely based on reliability and I can't imagine they're all just getting burned on this by being completely average. 

[oldshurst442]

39 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I know I don't have some proof to back this up, but it just feels like you're using your anecdotal evidence to say that. 

While I don't think Toyotas are some magical world marvel that every one will last a million miles with minimal maintenance, I still find it hard to believe that they aren't in the top tier. They sell millions of vehicles every year solely based on reliability and I can't imagine they're all just getting burned on this by being completely average. 

well...

Detroit built some of the best engineered and reliable cars in the world before WW1.  Rolls Royce, Mercedes...Oldsmobile and Ford.  Buick and Cadillac and Dodge and Alpha Romeo and Renault and Daimler...

AFTER WW2 however, there was a switch.  And strictly on a reliability standpoint...

Detroit built the FINEST cars around. It all came crashing down in the mid 70s to the 80s in actual fact. Just a decade of horridness.  But NOT ON ALL of their cars.  Just the small ones.  But Detroit stopped the shyttyness in the 1990s.  

Toyotas were a hot mess from the 1950s-1980s.  Got their shyte together on some cars in the 1970s, better in the 1980s. Some of their cars though, IN the 1980s was Detroit style garbage. Lexus was great IN the 1980s and 1990s. But their reliability did falter.

we are still hung up on Detroit but not a peep on Toyota and Lexus for oil sludge in their engines at the HEIGHT of Toyota reliability, frame failures on their supposed God like pick up trucks, millions upon millions of recalls due to shytty engineering NOT because of a small latch that doesnt work properly on the glove box recalls. Engineering flub recalls. 

Not a peep about that.

1. That shyte is AS BAD as Detroit got.  But it happened AFTER Detroit's blunders at the HEIGHT of THEIRS
2. Detroit had and still has a LONGER HISTORY of building great reliable cars than Toyota does.
3. the stretch of shytty Detroit cars is more or less the same as shytty Toyotas.
4. The type of shyttyness is the same for both
5. Detroit TODAY, is on PAR or BETTER THAN Toyota in MANY cases.

we still whine about Detroit but defend Toyota until death.

Makes no sense...

[David]

@Drew Dowdell @surreal1272 @smk4565 @oldshurst442 @ccap41

Since you all have been talking about good or bad of this and the crap history that some of us that have dealt with Alfa in the past still hold against the company as the current products they have here have not lived up to the quality, I thought it fair game to look at the Tonal reviews to get some idea of how this Jeep will stand out and of the reviews, I have to say that Top Gear nailed it.

Alfa Romeo Tonale Review 2022 | Top Gear

Quote of their Verdict, but worth the read./

In 160bhp form, the Tonale isn't a quick or charismatic drive, but in the end you've got to adjust your expectations of what a £35k crossover can do. At least the hybrid system helps with urban economy.

There are annoyances to the low-speed driving, but to a degree you forgive it because it gets better as the road gets more interesting.

Its cabin beauty is more than skin-deep. It's well-made and practical, and the electronics work properly.

Not a car we can recommend without reservation, but we liked it more the further we drove it. It's less boring than many of the rivals.

Additional reviews of the Tonale for you to consider and we can debate in regards to how this jeep might stand up.

2023 Alfa Romeo Tonale SUV Preview - Consumer Reports

Alfa Romeo Tonale Review 2022 | What Car?

One take is that while it has a 3yr/unlimited miles warranty, Alfa has by European reviews been at the bottom of the reliability and quality and with the hard plastic interior, feelings seem to indicate that Alfa cut corners for this Tonale also, expectations are low. As such Top Gear says that in the UK, Tonale will come with a 5yr/Unlimited warranty, but they do point out terrible past resale value and terrible dealership service issues.

This makes one wonder why the stealing of the billions from the American Name Plates to bring back Alfa when it was dead and gone since they have not seemed to learn from the past to build a better future and as such, if I was Stellantis, I would consider killing Alfa rather than wasting money on the brand when they have so many already to deal with.

[smk4565]

Stellantis didn't "steal money from American nameplates" Stellantis owns all these brands.  Stellantis is a Netherlands based company trading on the French and Italian stock exchanges.    Stellantis gives these brands a budget, pays the employees, etc.  And Stellantis could wipe out half their brands without a single person losing their job, because they don't have Dodge employees, or Fiat employees, or Opel employees, they have Stellantis employees.

And we already know Stellantis gave all these brands a budget and time to see which ones stick and which won't be needed.  As Tesla takes more and more market share around the world, I predict a major reorganization (similar to GM 2008 minus the bankruptcy) happens at Stellantis.  A lot of these brands will go away and they'll have a value brand, a luxury brand, an off road brand (Jeep) and a performance brand.  This might be a 4 brand company in 2030.

[David]

34 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Stellantis didn't "steal money from American nameplates" Stellantis owns all these brands.  Stellantis is a Netherlands based company trading on the French and Italian stock exchanges.    Stellantis gives these brands a budget, pays the employees, etc.  And Stellantis could wipe out half their brands without a single person losing their job, because they don't have Dodge employees, or Fiat employees, or Opel employees, they have Stellantis employees.

And we already know Stellantis gave all these brands a budget and time to see which ones stick and which won't be needed.  As Tesla takes more and more market share around the world, I predict a major reorganization (similar to GM 2008 minus the bankruptcy) happens at Stellantis.  A lot of these brands will go away and they'll have a value brand, a luxury brand, an off road brand (Jeep) and a performance brand.  This might be a 4 brand company in 2030.

McFly, everyone knows that Stellantis had nothing to do with Alfa coming back to life. Under Fiat CEO Marchionne, Alfa was brought back with FCA using the profits from Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep/Ram to get it going. Machionne took Billions that should have gone back into the CDJR brands to get Alfa going again.

Hate to use wiki, but the easiest to point to the history.

Alfa Romeo - Wikipedia

Fiat Chrysler Automobiles - Wikipedia

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, David said:

@Drew Dowdell @surreal1272 @smk4565 @oldshurst442 @ccap41

Since you all have been talking about good or bad of this and the crap history that some of us that have dealt with Alfa in the past still hold against the company as the current products they have here have not lived up to the quality, I thought it fair game to look at the Tonal reviews to get some idea of how this Jeep will stand out and of the reviews, I have to say that Top Gear nailed it.

Alfa Romeo Tonale Review 2022 | Top Gear

Quote of their Verdict, but worth the read./

In 160bhp form, the Tonale isn't a quick or charismatic drive, but in the end you've got to adjust your expectations of what a £35k crossover can do. At least the hybrid system helps with urban economy.

There are annoyances to the low-speed driving, but to a degree you forgive it because it gets better as the road gets more interesting.

Its cabin beauty is more than skin-deep. It's well-made and practical, and the electronics work properly.

Not a car we can recommend without reservation, but we liked it more the further we drove it. It's less boring than many of the rivals.

Additional reviews of the Tonale for you to consider and we can debate in regards to how this jeep might stand up.

2023 Alfa Romeo Tonale SUV Preview - Consumer Reports

Alfa Romeo Tonale Review 2022 | What Car?

One take is that while it has a 3yr/unlimited miles warranty, Alfa has by European reviews been at the bottom of the reliability and quality and with the hard plastic interior, feelings seem to indicate that Alfa cut corners for this Tonale also, expectations are low. As such Top Gear says that in the UK, Tonale will come with a 5yr/Unlimited warranty, but they do point out terrible past resale value and terrible dealership service issues.

This makes one wonder why the stealing of the billions from the American Name Plates to bring back Alfa when it was dead and gone since they have not seemed to learn from the past to build a better future and as such, if I was Stellantis, I would consider killing Alfa rather than wasting money on the brand when they have so many already to deal with.

We're not getting the 160 hp version, so most of their complaints are addressed by that. Minimum hp is 100 hp more.

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Stellantis didn't "steal money from American nameplates" Stellantis owns all these brands.  Stellantis is a Netherlands based company trading on the French and Italian stock exchanges.    Stellantis gives these brands a budget, pays the employees, etc.  And Stellantis could wipe out half their brands without a single person losing their job, because they don't have Dodge employees, or Fiat employees, or Opel employees, they have Stellantis employees.

And we already know Stellantis gave all these brands a budget and time to see which ones stick and which won't be needed.  As Tesla takes more and more market share around the world, I predict a major reorganization (similar to GM 2008 minus the bankruptcy) happens at Stellantis.  A lot of these brands will go away and they'll have a value brand, a luxury brand, an off road brand (Jeep) and a performance brand.  This might be a 4 brand company in 2030.

@David is talking about Marchioni taking revenue from Jeep/Dodge/Chrysler, starving them of product, in order to resurect Alfa-Romeo which was a dead brand... 2012 to 2018 their only models were the MiTo super-mini and the Fiesta sized Guilitta

[smk4565]

5 hours ago, David said:

McFly, everyone knows that Stellantis had nothing to do with Alfa coming back to life. Under Fiat CEO Marchionne, Alfa was brought back with FCA using the profits from Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep/Ram to get it going. Machionne took Billions that should have gone back into the CDJR brands to get Alfa going again.

Hate to use wiki, but the easiest to point to the history.

Alfa Romeo - Wikipedia

Fiat Chrysler Automobiles - Wikipedia

If CDJR was so profitable, why was it that Fiat bought them and not the other way around?  It was Fiat and Marchionne that bought CDJR.  And it was Peugeot (PSA) who bought FCA.  IF CDJR was such a powerhouse, they wouldn't have been taking over by a struggling company that was later taken over.

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

@David is talking about Marchioni taking revenue from Jeep/Dodge/Chrysler, starving them of product, in order to resurect Alfa-Romeo which was a dead brand... 2012 to 2018 their only models were the MiTo super-mini and the Fiesta sized Guilitta

Alfa Romeo got 2 products on the same platform, which is now used for Jeep's #1 selling product.  That didn't starve CDJR of product.  The Alfa 4C was around before the merger as were the other cars you mentioned.  Jeep got the Renegade, a replacement for that awful gen 1 Compass, the Cherokee, Dodge got the Dart, Chrysler the 200, Ram the Promaster and Promaster City.  Fiat gave CDJR 7 new products. 

[Drew Dowdell]

21 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Alfa Romeo got 2 products on the same platform, which is now used for Jeep's #1 selling product.  That didn't starve CDJR of product.  The Alfa 4C was around before the merger as were the other cars you mentioned.  Jeep got the Renegade, a replacement for that awful gen 1 Compass, the Cherokee, Dodge got the Dart, Chrysler the 200, Ram the Promaster and Promaster City.  Fiat gave CDJR 7 new products. 

Many billions were spent on Giorgio with little to show for it until the latest Grand Cherokee.

All of those you mentioned were just recycled Fiat products.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Many billions were spent on Giorgio with little to show for it until the latest Grand Cherokee.

All of those you mentioned were just recycled Fiat products.

Sure, but Chrysler got the LX cars and the WK Grand Cherokee (thus Durango, Commander) from Mercedes, plus the Crossfire, plus they sold Sprinters for a little bit.  Outside of the Ram pickup and Wrangler, I don't know how many platforms Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep Ram have come up with in the past 25 years.    Almost every product has been a hand me down from another car company.

A google search says the Giorgio platform cost $1.07 billion dollars.  Mercedes spent $1 billion on the W212 E-class refresh.  The Giorgio platform didn't take all the money out of the company, they should have had at least a $5 billion annual R&D budget.  FCA spent many billions on product.   Although they do have very little to show for it because the cars it produced weren't as good as BMW's.  

They may have nothing to show for the Tonale and Hornet.