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Obviously, you have not sat in a Ford and then the Lincoln counterpart. They used to be tacky badge-jobs. They are completely redone now. Aviator & Explorer:

Tesla as is all the other auto companies are going to find the need to INNOVATE their BEVs as Ford just completed a major Coup in hiring away one of the most coveted BEV Tech leaders. Doug Field! Ford poaches Apple's car project chief Doug Field | Reuters Ford greatly enhances its tech’s appeal | Reuters Ford poaches top tech executive Doug Field who helped lead Apple's top-secret car project (cnbc.com) Tesla FAILED to keep the bright mind behind the embedded system that they currently use loosing Doug Field to Apple. Apple has dragged their feet in taking to market their secret BEV project that they still do not acknowledge. Doug wants his projects out for people to use. As such, Ford WON in poaching him away to lead their 21st Century Embedded system for the BEV portfolio of Ford/Lincoln. Mercedes watch out as Ford has a BRILLIANT mind behind moving their BEV portfolio forward through the 21st century. GM will need to step up their innovation game as will all auto companies to compete with Ford. OUCH, Daimler stock and Tesla stock both down on this news while Ford and GM are both up on the news as this is seen as a very strong positive for US BEV production.

Imagine an upgraded Amtrak (or any train-type public transportation) doing just that in the United States.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/road-tests/a32627323/2020-lincoln-aviator-grand-touring-review/ "One year ago, I drove a Lincoln Navigator Black Label. Imposing, smooth, opulent. Part of me thought that Lincoln—of all companies—had built a better luxury vehicle than the Mercedes S-Class. For $30,000 less you could have just as much comfort, more space, and far more approachable technology. But it was rough around the edges, not the all-around stunner that the Mercedes was and is. A couple of years later, though, I'm wondering if Lincoln might just have bested Mercedes, with an even cheaper product. When the Aviator bowed, I already knew it had a shot at really delivering on what Lincoln promised. Three major issues hold back the Navigator: its body-on-frame construction makes it less of a high-speed, buttoned-down luxury cruiser; the driver-assist tech is a generation behind other luxury flagships; and some details feel a little too close to what you'd find on a Ford. The Aviator, with its unibody architecture, Co-Pilot 360 semi-autonomous driver's aids, and relentless attention to detail, seems to solve all of that. If the Navigator's biggest problem is that it tries to match, not beat, other luxury flagships, the Aviator's boundless ambition sets a great precedent for the brand. Look at the styling. To my eye, this is the first SUV since 2013 to match the current Range Rover's elegance and athleticism, with even more intricate detailing. The Aviator beat the rest of the luxury crossover field in offering smartphone-as-key capability (Tesla offers it on the Model 3 and promises it on other models "soon"). Its adaptive suspension uses cameras to adjust to the road ahead, tech usually reserved for S-Class-level vehicles. Even the Aviator's door chime is better than the competition's, composed by the Detroit Symphony Orchestra to be delicate, not grating. The audio system is best-in-class, handily beating anything BMW, Mercedes, or even Volvo will sell you. (Ultra-high end Meridian gear in top-spec Range Rovers still has the Lincoln beat, but that's damned good company to keep.) The ride is sublime and the cabin is whisper quiet. Oh, that cabin. It is unquestionably one of the best on sale. It's got the stunning wow-factor of a Volvo or Mercedes, but it's far more usable than either. Physical controls are laid out clearly, with an easy and simple touchscreen handling more complicated tasks. The software is a half-step behind the best in the business, but Lincoln is proving that you can make a gorgeous cockpit that's usable and attractive. Those keeping track of luxury car best practices will recognize that Lincoln has nailed just about every one. The key stuff—the seats, the ride, the interior—was solved in the first generation of new Lincoln products. But as the reborn company matures, the Aviator represents the company paying attention to the details. No longer content to be very good, Lincoln is shooting for best-in-the-business. Lincoln is building a world-class product, which means it's charging prices in line with other world-class cars. A top-trim Aviator Black Label starts at $77,695. That's deep into Mercedes GLE territory. But that's not a dealbreaker for one simple reason: the Aviator is easily the better car. Just don't get the hybrid."

I loved seeing those on the NASCAR ciurcuit. Fantastic motors. They had trouble killing them sometimes with cash for clunkers. Happier times at FOMOCO.

http://energyfairness.org/dutch-trains-really-running-completely-renewable-power/ Are Dutch Trains Really Running Completely on Renewable Power? "... What’s the trick? A little more than a tenth of all electricity consumed in the Netherlands comes from wind power, some of which is imported. But none of this wind power is directly connected to the NS rail system. Even the two Dutch wind farms with which NS contracts directly for wind power, Noordoostpolder and Luchterduinen, are tied generally to the Dutch grid and not tied directly into the NS rail system. Plus, it turns out that about half the electricity NS uses to power its rail system comes from outside of the Netherlands. Some of the nations that supply power to NS such as Germany, Belgium, and Finland, do generate wind power, but only in modest amounts. That means electrons traveling across international borders to help power the NS railway system come in some amount from wind power, but in much larger amounts from non-wind sources. “Putting these numbers together indicates that only 10-15% of the electricity consumed annually by NS’s electric trains will come from wind, with the rest a mixture that includes mostly Dutch gas and coal plus a small amount of Belgian and German coal, nuclear and lignite – and maybe even a little German solar,” Andrews explains. When challenged on its claim, NS clarified that only the electrified portion of its system runs completely on wind power. This is about two-thirds of the system. But of course even two-thirds of the NS system doesn’t run “completely” on wind power. The electrons that run the electrified portion of the NS system come from many sources, including wind, but also from coal, natural gas, and nuclear. The truth is that it’s impossible to determine the source of electrons actually moving NS trains down the track. What is clear is that most of those electrons didn’t originate from wind turbines. There are many reasons, of course, why NS would claim its trains run completely on wind power and even more reasons why many would celebrate this apparently breakthrough. Headlines like this make people feel good. It feels to many like progress. But let’s be real. The evidence speaks for itself. Claims that Dutch trains running entirely on wind power are way off track."

Seems Tesla looses again now that Musk has told employees Cyber truck production will begin late to end of 2022 with full production starting end of 2023. "Tesla Loses Big Advantage It Had Over Other Electric Trucks - InsideHook" https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/tesla-cybertruck-loses-advantage-electric-trucks/amp As they state, Tesla just lost a big advantage as Rivian, Ford and GM will be out before Tesla even begins truck production.

You’ve praised the Alfa stelvio before; if the Lincoln image/product os “so bad”, why does the Aviator outsell the Stelvio 2.5:1? After it flopped as a brand.

Because they're digging themselves out of the abysmal products they were making for like 30 years, very poorly and cheaply rebadged Fords. Because they're digging themselves out of the abysmal products they were making for like 30 years, very poorly and cheaply rebadged Fords. Lincoln dealerships have also improved as they cannot be in one building with Ford. They are required to have their own stand-alone building so there are also much fewer dealerships than there were only five years ago. They were in a hole and are taking the necessary steps to dig themselves out. I haven't read a review of any recent Lincoln(2016-on) that hasn't greatly praised the vehicle.

IMO, this segment seems more of the "older" generation(50-60 years old) where they grew up with a brand and just stick to it. They grew up with Hondas and now they can afford an Acura. JAPANESE RELIABILITY! GLE? Mercedes has a very good brand image and there are plenty of trim options. "Wow, you drive a Mercedes?!?" Their user interface/apps/charging network are also second to none, at this time.

This is a pretty ignorant statement, and you know it.

Not much difference because the Aviator is much wider. If you actually calculate out their volume that the vehicle occupies, based on exterior dimensions, the Aviator is a larger overall vehicle.

Or just dump in a Coyote V8 from a Shelby Mustang into that retro Thunderbird...that's what I'm thinbking would be hot!

Oh; no, no, no. Those other 8 SUVs "don't compete" with the 'glossed-over honda", you have very tight class divisions. It's MDX vs GLE. CLEARLY the Acura is better than the mercedes... because; sales! - - - - - I see repeated claims that "Tesla has huge name recognition", but of course, so do all the other existing OEMs (up & comers; not so much tho). Tesla has name recognition not so much because the product is amazing, but because it's a viable BE vehicle. That's like 75% of it's cache'. What happens when it's just another BE fish in the sea?

purchased. very glad, dealers have very few vehicles to sell nowadays!

I’ll go one step further on that loss of advantage. From an MT article on the Rivian. “Once plugged in and chatting over lunch from Holly's kitchen, Rivian's staffers asked us what we thought of the R1T. "It's annoyingly good," was all we could think to say. No brand-new automaker has any right to build a vehicle this competent right off the bat. And that initial impression held true as the pavement increasingly gave way to gravel, mud, and water crossings the farther west we traveled.” https://www.motortrend.com/features/2022-rivian-r1t-exclusive-drive-review-trans-america-trail-off-road/

The public Lite Rail that is being installed from north to south of Seattle is all powered by Hydro Electricity.

Even when it was a brand it was still a stretched out rebadged S-Class. However, rebadging is only an issue for him when it suits his domestic bashing arguments.

@smk4565 And just skip the fact that Maybach was just a rebadged S Class.

Tall Mountain to Climb? That can be said about the Anemic EQS tragic style. Interior while excellent from what we have seen in pictures is still a far cry from selling a complete package, so they have a TALL MOUNTAIN to climb for sales. If all ICE of Mercedes was stopped today, Mercedes would FAIL as a company trying to survive on their current electric auto's. Per tracking service here: Tesla Model Y US car sales figures (carsalesbase.com) Ford Mustang Mach-E US car sales figures (carsalesbase.com) Lets focus on the US, Tesla sold 25,000 Model Y in 2020, 76,429 so far in 2021. Ford sold 3 sold at the end of 2020, 6,767 so far in 2021. Yes one could say that Tesla is doing a better job than Ford in the US, but then lets look at Europe. Tesla Model Y European auto sales figures (carsalesbase.com) Ford Mustang Mach-E European sales figures (carsalesbase.com) Tesla sold 0,000 Model Y in 2020, 331 so far in 2021. Ford sold 185 Mach-e in 2020, 9,113 in 2021 so far Clearly Ford is doing a better job than Tesla in Europe. Let's look at China Tesla Model Y China auto sales figures (carsalesbase.com) Ford is working through the process to import in US made Mach-e for sale in China, Tesla is fighting them. Why? Tesla sold 0,000 Model Y in 2020, 56,534 in 2021 so far. Globally Tesla has sold 133,294 Model Y globally in 2021 Ford has sold 15,880 globally in 2021 so far. Yes Tesla has been building electric auto's much longer than Ford, yet why is their number not much higher then? Only an 8 times sales rate over Ford when it should easily be in the double digits. As such, YES, TESLA should fear the other OEMs.

Funny. You’ve never used that same criticism towards Audi and their rebadged VWs. Hell, even the Porsche Cayenne is a rebadged Touareg. You do understand that it also applies to your favorite maker right? Meanwhile, your favorite pushed out a jellybean low demand sedan before they even announced a much higher demand CUV or SUV.

You mention a few products but a few products don’t make a car company. Like GM needs 12 electric SUVs at minimum, probably more like 15-20. They need EV sedans, EV pickups and vans. Question is if GM, Ford, Mercedes or anyone else cancelled all their gas cars, could they survive? The Mach-e might have a nice conquest rate but Tesla sold 200,000 Model 3/Y in Q2 of 2021 worldwide. That’s like an F150 sales rate, the Mach-E is no where near that.

Tesla I see as another Apple. A company that blazed a trail for others to follow, but like all things, other companies learn, and in some cases will surpass the original leader company. Apple blazed a trail with innovative products, now since Job died, Apple has not really innovated anything. Next generation of chips, higher resolution on a camera is not innovating, just keeping the cash cow alive. Tesla blazed the trail with electric motors, Batteries and to a certain affect software for BEVs. Now we have a slew of new products coming and out that are already besting Tesla in many ways. Mach-e @ 70% conquest with what industry reviews state has better fit n finish as well as over all styling which we all know is subjective. EQS, the jelly bean of exterior style with a striking interior that does set a high bar. The starting to ship Rivian R1T that clearly sets a standard for electric pickups in the luxury price range. The soon to start shipping in the new year Ford F-150 Lightning that has clearly set the bar for BEVs as work vehicles as well as personal vehicles. GM with their Hummer by GMC Truck and SUV that ships next year in the true luxury category of truck / suv. The list will go on as we also have the Cadillac LYRIQ CUV that has a striking exterior style and based on current released images, a true luxury interior. I will not forget Porsche, Audi or Jaguar that have electric sedan / CUV out, but I expect to step up to the next level of luxury competition in the BEV category. Over all, Tesla needs to be concerned and as has been stated here, if they do not nail a solid home run with Gen two of the 3, Y, and Gen 3 of S & X will see their market share slowly erode. Innovation is going to be key to the next millennium of the auto industry.

Certainly nothing unusual about price overlap between higher trims of models of lower brands with lower trims/models of higher brands... For example, the lowest priced Cadillacs certainly have some price overlap w/ Chevy, GMC and Buicks, so nothing new. So no surprise if some Genesis models overlap Hyundai or Kia models in price.

Funny how you don’t use that same excuse regarding the MDX outselling the GLE. Fanboy logic, I guess. It’s really simple actually. Lincoln does not market them heavily enough against the foreign competition. It has more to do with that than it does “brand snobbery” (although that is a concern, as your endless slamming of domestics indicates).

Oh; no, no, no. Those other 8 SUVs "don't compete" with the 'glossed-over honda", you have very tight class divisions. It's MDX vs GLE. CLEARLY the Acura is better than the mercedes... because; sales Exactly my point but beware. More bar moving coming soon

Yup. Benchmark in performance and range. And that would be it. But that is where we are at with EVs. And if Tesla could maintain that benchmark, (not hard to do with Tesla's engineers) and improving their designs to be fresh, they dont have to worry about the competition as much. (A little harder to do, but same uphill battle as with their competition) And, lets say, they even improve their quality issues... Id say the competition is in trouble. (This is the one that they are behind the 8 ball in as compared to their competition, but 2 out of 3 aint bad and wont get them into trouble. It hasnt yet either.)

Tesla is a benchmark in performance & battery range. That's it.

That is why their 2nd generation Models of S,X, Y and 3 need to be better in every metric than the 1st gens. Including design. Their current corporate design is getting (all ready is) stale and outdated... They DO have a rabid fanbase... Its as rabid as @smk4565's fanaticism and worship-ness towards Mercedes. If not more! I am not going to pretend to know the percentage of Tesla's sales are from rabid Tesla fanatics, but it is high. I am thinking its high enough that if Tesla manages to outdo themselves if they do actually bring out 2nd gen models, that it wont matter what the rest of the competition does. Tesla will survive the onslaught and perhaps have even MORE rabid fans by their side. But that is IF they bring out 2nd generation models to their Model S,X,Y and 3. If not, the competition will eventually erode away at their market share. Mercedes, Cadillac, Porsche, Audi all have their fanbases too. But BECAUSE Tesla is STILL the benchmark, its up to these brands to prove themselves AGAINST Tesla. The Mach E... BECAUSE the Model Y and Model X are outdated on the outside, and the Mach E is very very comparable with Tesla's tech and performance specs, the Mach E has done very well against the Tesla models in sales. The Porsche and Audi sedan entrants, dont do so well in sales compared to the Model S regardless if the Porsche and Audi look one thousand times better than the Model S. The performance specs lag... When the competition catches up, and they arent far behind with Tesla now, it will be design that will win out. And Tesla loses there. Unless Tesla's 2nd gen vehicles stay above their own current models with a fresh, appealing design. In Mercedes' case, their EVs were touched by the ugly stick. And ugly doesnt sell.

And only ONE midsize CUV which outsells the ONE midsize Mercedes CUV. FFS man. Just stop the damn excuses and accept that Mercedes does not win at everything. It would save a tone of space and waste here. And I quote (from one article). “Both luxury midsize SUVs offer great engine choices, awesome AWD configurations, and comfortable rides. The team at KBB favored the 2020 Acura MDX for its standard V6 engine, high reliability and resale value, and its lower price.” But of course the Mercedes fanboy thinks the Mercedes is better. What was that you said earlier about credibility?

The GLE is absolutely better than an MDX, but the MDX is $7k cheaper and Acura has 2 SUVs to pick from and Mercedes has 9. So Mercedes is spreading the the sales around more. But obviously Acura has a following with the MDX and does well with it.

Please tell me this cheap-looking thing is starting in the low $30s.

It must truly truly suck to keep going back and forth between sales mattering and sales not mattering. He only said the product was competitive, with no mention of sales figures. A fact that he fails to point out because there is no way an Acura is better than a Mercedes in his fanboy eyes.

Guess by that metric, the “glossed over honda pilot” is a better luxury SUV than the MBGLE. Good to know.

I am actually glad that 1/3 of Mercedes are under $50k, because that takes sales away from Acura, Volvo, Lincoln, Lexus, Cadillac, Infiniti, etc. The A-class, CLA, GLA, GLB (aside from being needed in China and Europe with displacement tax and CO2 regs) in the USA take away sales from Volvo XC40/XC60 and S60, Acura RDX/TSX, Cadillac CT4/CT5, XT4, Lexus NX/UX, etc. No reason to let those brands take that volume when Mercedes can take it. And people will pay double the price for that Maybach than they could get a Navigator or Escalade for. Shouldn't Lincoln, Volvo, Cadillac, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, Tesla and Jaguar all wonder why no one will pay $200k for one of their cars? Zero of those brands are on par with Mercedes until they have a $200,000 car.

Had the opportunity to drive a rented (big) Thunderbird with a 4.6 L V8 up to Vancouver, Canada and back down across the border. I was surprised how much I liked it. That, too, turned out to be a workhorse for FoMoCo.

IIRC, my Mom's '81 Thunderbird had the 4.2L. She didn't like that car...it had replaced a '77 Thunderbird. The '81 was replaced by an '83 Thunderbird w/ the 5.0.

That's what I figured. Olds: 4.3 (260) Chevy: 4.3 (262), 4.4 (267), and, much later, 4.3 (263, I think) ... it would be interesting to see how bore and stroke differed, telling you if/which larger displacement small block they were derived from Pontiac: 4.3 (265) - - - - - I vaguely remember a Ford 255 V8. It was only around in 1980 and 1981, upon looking it up. It was a 4.2 L. It would have probably worked well with the last rehash of the retro Thunderbird.

Why aren’t badge snobs buying Lincoln’s? Everyone likes to say that badge snobs just buy a German without even comparing competition vehicles. But why isn’t Lincoln the brand badge snobs want?

Lincoln has no credibility now either, not much has changed. I have heard what people liked about the Avalanche was it rides/handles better than a Silverado, because it is basically a Suburban, which is 1 body, not 2 pieces, has better suspension, etc. I don't disagree that there are advantages to it, or that they couldn't sell some volume with it. I just think GM beancounters must have figured that they could sell X number of Avalanche/Escalades but 80-90% of X would just buy a Silverado/Suburban anyway. So even if they lose 10-20% of X units, that is cheaper than building and marketing another model. Not much different than the Germans saying less coupes and convertibles, they figure those people will just buy something else off the lot and if they lose a few people, oh well. I still have doubts that if there were a Lincoln or Cadillac pick up for $85k and a Black Label/Platinum for $100k that it would sell. GM and Ford must have done market research on that and don't see volume there. Years ago, I might have thought they don't want a pick up on a luxury dealer lot, but Lincoln tried it twice, and Lincoln is SUVs only now. Cadillac, maybe if they are trying to be a performance/luxury brand don't want a pick up there, but I doubt they care about that since they make 3 FWD crossovers. So the only reason they don't exist must be that their market research tells them they won't sell.

Lincoln is still rebadging Fords, all 4 of their SUVs are exactly that. They have gotten better at doing it, but it has been the same playbook for 30 years. As far as Tesla goes, the Model Y is roughly same size and price as the Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ionic 5. If you ask a consumer what do they want, a Hyundai, a Kia or a Tesla? I think we know that survey says Tesla. The Mach-E is also priced like a Model Y, so the eventual Lincoln version will be $10-20k more. That is a tall mountain to climb to get consumers to pay more for a Lincoln than a competing Tesla. Tesla is selling a lifestyle, that is what these other people aren’t doing and why something like the VW iD4 was a flop already.