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^ Exactly, I don't know how that's remotely comparable. If you're truly looking for a similar output to the $3900 ECrate, Ford sells the 2.3T for $6600, 310hp/350tq.

^ This has devolved into an apples & zucchini discussion. Ford ‘e-crate’ motor is $3900 for just that single motor, and it’s rated at 281-HP. Somehow 1000-HP monster motors and top-line $25K crates got injected in. Like I said; 2 different conversations.

Then he would have went with a lesser engine. 281hp motor vs 460hp engine. I'm not seeing where the electric motor from Ford should be compared to the 1000hp Hellephant. Yeah, I get where you'd want two or three electric motors in a real expensive and performance oriented build, but I'm still not exactly sure how they compare. You need to simplify things a little here. You're stretching to a four motor setup to compare to a Hellephant. Do go no, please. How are you figuring the batteries and controller pricing to say they're cheaper than a comparable ICE?

The pricing still is cheaper than current equal performance ICE motors and the labor to have it installed and setup. Same thing with ICE, take a $7,500 auto, put in a $25K ICE motor and still have to have a new wiring harness, chip and any other mechanical changes and that ICE auto will still only be worth the $57K. This is no difference than your lovely 1964 Pontiac. Still not worth the money that one puts into it. Restoration is a labor of love to those that CHOOSE to restore the auto. I see every Friday at the local Taco Time here a ton of old auto's that have been restored and clearly they would not sell for anywhere near the money put into them for that ICE auto. It is choices and right now going electrical is clearly cheaper in everything other than the battery pack which costs are dropping yearly on. Right now the Controller cost for the electric motor is $253.50 per a Ford Dealership San Antonio Texas. Ford Mustang Mach-E Engine Control Module. MODULE - ENGINE CONTROL - EEC. CHARGING & CONTROL - MJ9Z12A650A | North Park Lincoln, San Antonio TX (nplincoln.com) Considering that this Ford F-100 was built using Mach-E GT parts, looking at the list for other parts still shows this to be a much cheaper solution than many of the V8 ICE crate motors. Genuine 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E Parts: Electrical, Lighting, Telematics | North Park Lincoln (nplincoln.com)

They're in the Mach-E, I'd certainly say that is a mass produced motor.

I am not using restoring costs. JUST the engine swaps... I include the UPGRADES because modern crate engines necessitate these upgrades MAINLY for safety. But also, most folk that want a classic car WANT their classic car to drive like a MODERN one... As an genuine and honest argument, you cant omit that just because you want to show me that EV swaps are expensive. So are internal combustion crate engines in the real world. We cant just bash EV swapping in the car forum world and forget the reality of it all regarding IC crate engines and classic cars... Yup. You want to discriminate AGAINST EV swaps. I get that. If you are gonna do that, then do it with an EQUIVALENT internal combustion engine, please. You could do awesome powered engine swaps with junked 12 year old Denalis that have the almost top dog LS engines in them. But we arent talking about that, are we? We could do electric motor swaps from Teslas that are junked, and we could buy those relatively cheap too. Cheaper than GM's and Ford's EV crate motors, right? But your beef is with Ford's NEW EV crate motor and how expensive THAT is... and what value it may bring to a would be buyer. Well, if THAT is the case, lets EVEN the playing field just a tad then. Hellephant engine it is. If you want, we will play with Ford instead of Mopar. Ford's 5.2liter supercharged 'Predator' V8 is 26 000 dollars... NO transmission... https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-M52SC And the reason why you cant have a static car worth x and then putting a price on that with a swap, JUST a swap because regardless of what powertrain you use, electric or gasoline, you have to change everything else on the car to accommodate said swap for safety but for compatibility too... Put electric motors in a car? You need a battery. You need software. You need a kill switch. You need to possibly fabricate stuff to house these new things. You need to upgrade all other systems to accommodate this new technology. All that costs money. Money that needs to be done. But if you think that 760 HP Predator engine swaps on a lowly 289 Mustang doesnt need those same upgrades, you are being very disingenuous with me... Especially Fords when none of their engines could be swapped as easily as GM cars could. So swapping a 351 in a 289 car would need fab work never you mind a brand new Predator 5.2. I already answered you on this. Even a Mustang, a 1970 Mustang with a Predator engine has to be done properly and correctly in order for that Mustang to be worth the restoration costs. You think, that just an engine swap on a 1970 Mustang will get you your money back? You think, you bought a $9200 1970 Mustang, bought a Predator and installed it and its a #3 car You think that when you cant finish the job for whatever reason, you think that you will get $35 000 (26 000 for the engine plus the cost of the car) foir the Mustang? With a transmission from a 351 that may or may not be good for the Predator... Car may or may not be running... Common Balthy... You know and I know, that Americans whether they like the dealership experience or not, you and I know that Americans NEVER want to pay what the list price is on a car. Americans are accustomed to haggle... Raise the price to 40 000 dollars to fool the buyer to haggle to 35 000 and you and I know that nobody will contact the buyer on a 40 000 dollar #3 Mustang regardless if the car has a Predator engine in it or not.... Ive already explained to you why a Coyote is NOT the proper comparison to that EV motor. At Ford...the Coyote with a transmission is sold for $18 000 https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-9000-PMCA3A Different scenario... Cant finish the car for whatever reason. We are in it for 28 000 dollars for a running #3 Mustang with a Coyote and a transmission. Still tight but doable in breaking even... I know you want to diss on EVs, but lets be honest about it. Put a Predator in a classic Mustang, do NOT do the proper upgrades on it and the value to your Predator engined classic Mustang falls really really flat to the modern classic car owner. The question you also might want to be answered is: Are there any buyers out there that actually want and value an EV converted classic car? Well...when one is restoring a car, for personal reasons, is that person asking if there are buyers out there for a classic 1966 Fiord Galaxie XL? When Jay Leno restored that exact car because his dad owned one and he went all in with it, did he ask how much will it be worth to somebody else if he wanted to part ways with it? Or the RWD conversion job he did with his 1000HP Toronado? When he even hired GM tech advisers and engineers tom help him convert it to RWD. Problem is, Jay Leno's cars will probably command high prices BECAUSE its Jay Leno's cars. You and I do that, will somebody value our work and vision? The answer is NO! You know that! Nobody cares for a 1966 Galaxie that putting over 30 000 dollars into one regardless what powertrain, is losing money and 'desecrating' a 1966 Toronado turning it into a RWD car with a shytty LS engine rather than keeping it a 455 Olds Rocket is a big no no and a way to piss your money away... So why do you ask if an EV convert is of value to somebody in the reselling market. Its not...its a personal thing. When a drifter swaps an LS engine into his Nissan Sylvia, will he even be getting his money back in his drifter Nissan that he paid for? Nope, not even that! Imagine that???!!! An ICE car that relatively cheap to buy and make, a drifter who got his Nissan at the junk yard, his LS at the junk yard, paid good money for brakes and suspension and steering and roll bars and all the things he needs to drift his car, but he wont even HE wont get his money back because well...not that many people out there value drifting.... Do people value EV cars? Enough of them to convert classics? Well...EV West in CA seems to have some sort of customer base...

Lets be honest tho... Lets say, you take that same $7500 car https://www.autabuy.com/search/?Model=Demon&Year1=1970&Year2=1975&Make=Dodge (This fast link shows a $3200 Dodge Demon that needs restoring along with 2 others that are restored where both cars' asking price is $39 000) (And this fast link: https://barnfinds.com/affordable-survivor-1972-dodge-dart-swinger/ where the reader in 2017 thought that $7500 was too much asking price but the car will appreciate) and shoehorned a $20 000 Hellcat crate engine in it PLUS all the accesories required to run the engine like a $5 000 transmission and $2000 for the electric harness etc... https://www.mopar.com/en-us/shop/performance/engine-accessories.html 6.2L Supercharged Crate HEMI® Engine Kit Part No. 1 77072452AD | $2,265.00 (MSRP) Tremec Transmission and Assembly Kit Part No. PW100003AB | $5,250.00 (MSRP) Hellcrate 6.2L Supercharged Crate HEMI® Engine Part No. 1 68303089AB | $20,215.00 (MSRP) what's it then worth to someone else? Certainly not the amount you put into the car....regardless if its a killer internal combustion engine, right? Therefore, its disingenuous to talk about how much a hopped up, restored car is worth because MOST of the time, the monies spent restoring cars will NEVER be recuperated. EVEN if we ARE talking about cars that HAVE caught the public eye. Like a Jaguar E-Type or a '70 GTO or a '71 Plymouth Hemi 'Cuda or a Mustang or Camaro... A numbers matching Hemi 'Cuda convertible is probably worth to some rich boomer several million dollars today. But that same numbers matching Hemi 'Cuda to a shytty millennial is probably worth diddly squat. Unless of course that shytty millennial treats that 'Cuda like a stock commodity and buys it only to flip it to another dumb ass boomer for double 24 hours later after buying it... But a Cuda convertible, if it was demonized with a 6.2 liter supercharged nouveau Hemi, it probably be getting just slightly more money than it was modified for JUST because its a Barracuda. It has caught the public eye for quite some time. 30 000 dollars for the engine and all the accessories. Upgrades to the steering, suspension, brakes is a MUST. Add another $20 000 for that...easily! Plus all the little things like interior upgrades and paint jobs. Plus labour...if one does not have access to a paint shop or work garage etc... https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1971-PLYMOUTH-BARRACUDA-CUSTOM-CONVERTIBLE-249764 This convertible Barracuda was sold at $115 000... https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1971-PLYMOUTH-BARRACUDA-CUSTOM-CONVERTIBLE-248351 This modified convertible was sold for $80 000. Lesser cars, meaning, less mythical muscle cars that have slipped the test of time, will not be getting these prices at auction. Ill repeat, its foolish to think that JUST because electric powertrains ARE insanely high priced to convert and mod classics right now, that crate internal combustion engine swapping is not as insanely high priced as well and would recuperate monies thrown at restomodded classics...

where's the motor pictures, all i see is pictures of a starter? LOL love this retro ford as a concept. looks like the gauge cluster was replaced with a jensen cheap car stereo from walmart, and an ipad stuck on the dash (yes i know its Mac H parts). Wish we had this emotor back in the day when we had Vegas with engines that kept needing to be rebuilt. Dad was always rebuilding Vegas. Maybe simple electric motors for those would have been the schiz.....

Ford today previewed the future of auto restoration at the 2021 SEMA show with the official reveal of the Eluminator F-100 AWD electric pickup truck. This truck demonstrates the power of Ford Performance e-crate motors that customers can buy and use to go emission free with zero tailpipes. This 1978 Ford F-100 pickup features the 2021 Mustange Mach-E GT Performance Powertrain. Two electric motors drive the front and rear wheels with a combined 480 HP / 634 lb-ft of torque as limited by the controller for this installation. This is the first e-crate motor from Ford Performance Parts with much more to come. SEMA 2021 - Ford Performance Parts ELUMINATOR MACH E ELECTRIC MOTOR| Part Details for M-9000-MACHE | Ford Performance Parts The Ford Performance e-crate motor (Part # M-90000-MACH-E) is available now at $3,900 each. As part of a $50 billion global market annually, Ford looks to cash in on the performance crowd supplying e-crate motors, controllers, and so much more for your restoration to the electric world. Each motor is sold producing 281 HP / 317 lb-ft of torque by default and can be customized per installation/personalized. To quote Ford press Release: The all-electric F-100 Eluminator concept, designed and created by Ford Performance, was built in collaboration with MLe Racecars and sits on a custom chassis by the Roadster Shop. It’s painted in Avalanche Gray with Cerakote Copper accents applied by Brand X Customs, while the interior features a billet aluminum dash by JJR Fabrication and avocado-tanned leather upholstery by MDM Upholstery. It’s fitted with custom 19x10-inch billet aluminum three-piece wheels by Forgeline wrapped in Michelin® Latitude® Sport 275/45-19 high-performance tires. Over time, Ford Performance plans to develop a wide list of components based on the Eluminator powertrain in conjunction with industry leading performance manufactures, including battery systems, controllers, traction inverters and more as Ford closes the loop on full turnkey electrification solutions. This seems to be a focus much like GM's Connect & Cruise powertrain systems of which GM has committed to also having e-crate solutions available in the future. Chevrolet and GM Performance Parts for your Hot Rod, Car, or Truck (gmperformancemotor.com) Ford is very excited about the future and had many other electric turn key solutions being shown off at SEMA 2021 including their 1,400 HP Mustang Mach-E which they believe will hit 200 MPH at Bonneville Speed Week Summer of 2022. QUOTE: “The fact is, electric performance is fun, and as the industry moves toward electric vehicles, motorsports and the performance aftermarket will too,” said Mark Rushbrook, global director of Ford Performance. “Just as Ford is committed to leading the electric revolution on the product side, Ford Performance is equally committed to winning on the performance and motorsports front.” This past weekend, Ford’s Mustang Cobra Jet 1400, an electric-powered exhibition dragster prepared by Ford Performance and MLe Racecars, demonstrated its quickness at the NHRA Nationals in Las Vegas. All-Electric-Ford-F-100-Eluminator-Concept-Truck-B-Roll.mp4 Ford-Performance-Eluminator-Electric-Crate-Motor-B-Roll.mp4 The Future of Custom Vehicles: Ford Unveils All-Electric F-100 Eluminator Concept With New EV Crate Motor Customers Can Now Buy | Ford Media Center Truck Pictures: The Future of Custom Vehicles: Ford Unveils All-Electric F-100 Eluminator Concept With New EV Crate Motor Customers Can Now Buy Motor Pictures: The Future of Custom Vehicles: Ford Unveils All-Electric F-100 Eluminator Concept With New EV Crate Motor Customers Can Now Buy SEMA 2021 - Ford Performance Parts ELUMINATOR MACH E ELECTRIC MOTOR| Part Details for M-9000-MACHE | Ford Performance Parts Chevrolet and GM Performance Parts for your Hot Rod, Car, or Truck (gmperformancemotor.com) View full article

Hang tough, things usually have a way of working out.

No, but it's an almost even comparison to the ECrate motor, not a 1000hp Hellephant. Well, 310hp vs 281hp vs 760hp 350tq vs 317tq vs 625tq I'll let you choose which numbers are similar and which are outliers.

310hp vs 281hp 350tq vs 317tq

Exactly why this place has been so interesting to watch for the last 16 years for me.

Did you see where the Mach-E controller for the motors is only $253.50 cents from a Dealer in Texas. Randomly looking online, wiring, connectors, etc. are cheap. The biggest cost is going to be in the battery pack as always. Currently at the same Texas Dealership the GT battery pack that is in this F-100 is $22,230.01 Battery & battery assemblies. High voltage.. 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E | North Park Lincoln, San Antonio TX (nplincoln.com) Yet this same battery pack on Cheaperfordparts.com is $18,000.00 Cost are becoming on par between ICE to electric. The battery pack still being the biggest cost and those costs are coming down. If we do a proper comparison, a single 460HP motor at $9,500 or dual motors at $7,800 with 562HP / 634 lb-ft of torque in AWD. I would take AWD over the RWD every day. Throw in the $253 controller for the motors, some wiring and yes even the $22K battery pack installed and your still competing with a 5 digit conversion price of the ICE system. ICE might be about $10K lower than Electric, but to each their own, some will want the electric such as me over an ICE solution and as long as I hold onto my auto's, this becomes cheaper and cheaper every day.

And your comparison is totally WRONG! There is no way that you can take a $9,500 V8 motor and drop it in that Mustang and be on the road for $12,500 Labor and other hardware needed to properly work is still boosting it up much higher than you are stating. Motor swaps like this at a licensed garage are costing much more. Electrical Motor in AWD is $7,800 for the two motors giving you way more performance than the Coyote motor. You still need the proper wiring harness, chip, exhaust connection, transmission connections, brakes and more and the cost, labor miscellaneous cost will have you more in the $25K to $30K easily for that Coyote swap. 99% of people DO NOT do their own swaps like you. If they wanted that Coyote swap, they will go to a garage and have all the same added costs that an electric swap will cost. The two pictures posted in the story is the electric motors.

I'm genuinely curious what all of the additional parts/batteries would cost for a setup just for a ballpark figure. 50k sounds a little high but that's also with me assuming just one $3900 motor. If you're spending that kind of cash, there will be two or three of them also adding additional controllers and batteries. I guess as I type through this, 50k doesn't sounds that far off, especially considering probably 10k-15k in labor customizing everything to fit.

House next to me they bought for 200k roughly before prices went up. They dumped 80K plus into changing it even though it was in pristine shape. She (owner) wanted something different. She owns a few pizza resteraunts that make a good bit of change, and can afford it. Just because you don't expect to make money back out doesn't mean its a bad use of money. Green car for you if you don't like EV conversions. This is bio friendly...

You keep bringing restoration costs into the equation (not to mention the Helliphant). I never mentioned either as part or parcel of my example. My examples take a given, static car worth X, then asked if putting an additional $50K into a powertrain swap would make it worth that much more, or considerably less than the starting value. Forget brake upgrades, etc, etc, etc. - a million variables too many to enable a general answer. - - - - - I'll try one more time. Hagerty says a #3 condition '70 Mustang coupe is worth $9200. Let's make it an even $10K, with a 4bbl 351 V8 making 300 HP. We know for a fact that EV West in CA charges about $50K to retro-fit a vintage car into a BE. They mostly do VWs, but others, too. So you take your existing '70 Mustang to EV West. You write a check for $50K & they make it battery-powered. What's its value now, should you decide to sell it? Or..... you write a check for $12K and put a brand new crate 5.0 in the '70, a 'drop-in'. What's the comparison value now? Is a (non-Boss, non-Mach) '70 Mustang more likely to sell at $13K... or at $50K? It's a simple question in either case... and a pertinent one to anyone writing said check. Yes; some people do 'car things' as a labor of love, never intending to ever sell. But most DO sell at some point; I'm sure I am in a strict minority owning the same car for 35 years now.

No we are not. THIS is what you are saying. You are saying that EV conversions are insanely expensive that no car will ever be worth the conversion price. And Im saying that even with internal combustion crate engines, restored cars, some of them, most of them will NEVER be worth the restoration price. Especially if done correctly and properly... Im also saying that in the near future, when EVs are going to be ubiquitous, like those LS engines are today in junkyards that lend themselves to tons of swaps for restorations that help with VALUE in recuperation monies from expensive restorations, so will EV motors...

Everything is absurdly priced as of late. Not a political post, jsut a lament.

Its official. My partnership at the restaurant is slowly winding down and coming to an end. Ill be taking over as sole owner during the course of this year, but I will probably be selling it myself this year or next. My partner had a family situation. A very terrible thing to happen to him as a husband... He is devastated about this and has tried to work it out with his wife, but he just cant. Cant trust her. But then with all that and he cant manage his business life also. I begged him to stay on because I need him at the store. I cant live without him. He completes me at the restaurant. I told him to take as much time as he wants away from the restaurant. But for him to come back... Yeah...he is my husband at the restaurant. He keeps ME in check. Just as how I keep him in check. We make a perfect couple running it. So with that bombshell, I am the sole owner of a soon to be sold hot dog joint.