oldshurst442

General Motors has 5 models on 4 cars that dominate performance. Cadillac CTS V Cadillac ATS V sedan Cadillac ATS V coupe Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 1LE Both the Corvette and Camaro have other trims that dominate performance Chevrolet is getting ready to launch 2 new Corvettes in the next year and a half... a) and more powerful C7 b) a new platformed mid-engined C8 - and that new C8 will have other better performing trims The Cadillacs all perform quite well...and their replacements are gonna be sold soon...the performance versions will soon be on top of Camaro performance... The Camaro needs to shine NOW more than the others... I dont get why you dont see that....

Ummm....no. 4-5 years later? That becomes old news... The Camaro has a storied past. Legendary past. It has competition that is older than you and I and Im 44 years old.... It has to be better than a Mustang....it has to kick the Mustang's ass...NOW...not 5 years later... It had to be better than the old Challenger and AMC pony car. It had other rival that indirectly competed with it segment and powertrain wise...yet these rivals still competed and STILL compete with the Camaro SALES wise because such is cars sales....segments get indirectly thrown together as each sporty and sports car fight for the same car enthusiast dollar...a sale for a Camaro means one less sale that a Mazda Miata did not get... A sale for a BMW Z4 means that a Dodge Challenger Scat Pack was not sold... The BMW M3, The Supra, The Datsun 240 that became the 300 ZX TT that became the 350 and 370, the Hyundai Genesis Coupe and others...all have competed and still compete for that enthusiast dollar that the Camaro does DIRECT battle with regardless of powertrain or country of origin... Some cars that I mentioned died, some came back from the dead, some might come back, some will never see the light ever again... It actually happened to the Camaro...IT DIED. It MIRACULOUSLY came back...and its CURRENT state is more fragile than ever before as coupes dont sell today...sporty coupes even less and as it happens...cars today are more evenly matched than ever before with different personalities that cater to all kinds of enthusiasts... That is why a Camaro today...has a turbo 4 cylinder version, that is quite capable to do battle with a German BMW 2 and 4 Series base car...or Miata...different personalities...but all 4 (the 2 BMWs, the Miata and the Camaro) still fight for that 1 consumer that will make 1 enthusiast car purchase... It has to do battle on the base side...it has to do battle on the high side... Even a FWD based AWD 4 door coupe turbo 4 cylinder CLA becomes a battle for the Camaro V8... The Camaro has to appeal to all those cars... It cannot lose performance to most of these...shyte it even does battle with the ATS...yeah...like how a Trans Am did battle. About the ATS coupe.... It does not sell well....either in base form or V form. Maybe Cadillac is waiting to attack when the CT3 (ATS replacement) comes along... The CTS V kicks ass...it kicks ass so much that for the last 2 years, the competition has not caught up to the CTS V. There are hardly any buyers...but it aint because the CTS V sucks in performance... Back to the Camaro... The Camaro waits 3-4 years to get the good stuff...GM might as well cancel the Camaro and spend the development money elsewhere...

You only wanna see what you wanna see...dont you? If they had limited the Camaro because of the Vette...then new GM would just be like old 1970s/1980s GM... Lots of great potential sports cars GM laid to waste because of stupid mentality like that. A Pontiac Banshee that never left the ground... A Pontiac Firebird/Trans Am that was forced upon Pontiac that ended up being too much like a Camaro save for engine and suspension set-ups....but in the end just ended up being a badge engineered copy anyway...The Trans Am had potential to kick Corvette ass...but was not allowed too... The 1989 Turbo Trans Am was neutered...the LS1 4rth generation was also neutered. Not to mention the Camaro from years 1970.5-2002. And yes... maybe that is one reason of many why the Camaro died...its still a factor I think why it died. It did come back...but the Trans Am never did... Speaking of the turbo 3.8...a Buick Grand National GNX was FASTER than the Vette...but Buick was NOT allowed to advertise that fact and probably was not allowed to make it handle twisties to really make it a modern muscle car...relegating it to being just a Drag race special... A Pontiac Fiero that Pontiac had great things in mind for but GM corporate cheapened the shyte out of it... The North American Kappa twins aka Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky...the development money was not enough to begin with...but it goes to show you that GM corporate used to love to spend a great deal of money on new exciting products only to half-ass them or not truly commit to them and ultimately let them die off... They brought back the Camaro from the dead... Should they just let the damned thing suffocate and ultimately die AGAIN just because the Corvette or possibly Cadillac should be on top? That makes no sense...and it HAS happened at GM in the past...

Over at Dodge... it will only cost you 1 dollar per seat to re-gain the other 3 passenger seats for a total of 3 dollars 1 dollar for a carpeted trunk 1 dollar for a crate and in that crate you get two narrow front wheels, a performance ECU with high-octane fuel calibration, a replacement instrument panel, a personalized ID badge, a performance air filter, two valve stems, and passenger mirror block off plates and tools...a hydraulic floor jack, cordless impact wrench with charger, a torque wrench, tire pressure gauge and a tool bag. Nothing beats the great American value game! Although a Porsche of the nature you are talking about is a beast and a very compelling car for me to own...a Demon is more my style...(I will just simply ignore the R8...even with the V10) But Ill be honest...a Hellcat will do just fine...no need for the Demon... Ill even settle for the lowly Scat Pack...

Yes it is...the Camaro it is. Its a great feat in engineering in its own right. The Nissan GT-R too. I think the Camaro ZL1 1LE relies less on the electronic aides though. Both have "back seats"...sure... it dont matter...for all intents and purposes...compared to other cars on that list, yeah...both cars carry extra weight in the back... Sure...Ill agree to that. However, I dont think the GT-R is out dated...PERFORMANCE wise. I think its a beast and a testament to how well it was engineered... Its looks are dated. Its looks were dated the very same day it was launched a decade ago or so...but that has nothing to do on its ability to perform around a race track and its pure acceleration for a heavy car... Honestly...I wonder on that too... But lets be honest. It is a Camaro. It HAS to considerably outperform a Mustang. It HAS to out perform by a huuuuge landslide a Bimmer 2-3-4 Series "M" badge on all levels of performance... The ATS V is an outstanding performer too....but when any 1LE trimmed Camaro kicks ass let alone the ZL-1...and the ATS-V shares no similar love, one has to wonder why is that? Maybe its because Cadillac finds it useless as of now to push the performance boundaries of the ATS-V further when it aint selling well and they are waiting for the replacement to come? Like I said in the other post....Chevy has learned many things from Corvette Racing...its applying that to the Vette and the Camaro. Their is NO need to limit the Camaro...its stupid to do so. If they had limited the Camaro because of the Vette...then new GM would just be like old 1970s/1980s GM... Lots of great potential sports cars GM laid to waste because of stupid mentality like that. A Pontiac Banshee that never left the ground... A Pontiac Firebird/Trans Am that was forced upon Pontiac that ended up being too much like a Camaro save for engine and suspension set-ups....but in the end just ended up being a badge engineered copy anyway...The Trans Am had potential to kick Corvette ass...but was not allowed too... The 1989 Turbo Trans Am was neutered...the LS1 4rth generation was also neutered. Not to mention the Camaro from years 1970.5-2002. And yes... maybe that is one reason of many why the Camaro died...its still a factor I think why it died. It did come back...but the Trans Am never did... Speaking of the turbo 3.8...a Buick Grand National GNX was FASTER than the Vette...but Buick was NOT allowed to advertise that fact and probably was not allowed to make it handle twisties to really make it a modern muscle car...relegating it to being just a Drag race special... A Pontiac Fiero that Pontiac had great things in mind for but GM corporate cheapened the shyte out of it... The North American Kappa twins aka Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky...the development money was not enough to begin with...but it goes to show you that GM corporate used to love to spend a great deal of money on new exciting products only to half-ass them or not truly commit to them and ultimately let them die off... They brought back the Camaro from the dead... Should they just let the damned thing suffocate and ultimately die just because the Corvette or possibly Cadillac should be on top? That makes no sense... And here you are...you are trying to fault GM for a phoquing awesome Camaro...yet dont ask the same for a CLA AMG...you are content with a CLA AMG that gets spanked from a Camaro... If you aint gonna improve on your performance trims and cars to truly be the best...why bother? THAT dilutes the trim badge (AMG on the likes of CLA) or it kills off the model outright (Trans Am, Fiero etc...) The Vette...there will be faster, better, more Alpha Dog Corvettes a-coming that will equal the ZL1-1LE Camaro and probably supplant it ...the ZR-1...the C8 mid-engined Zora...the E-Ray...in the months (and years) to come... Yes...it will probably be making MORE than 670 HP sans electrics and probably closer to 1500 when all else is added up... @2.5 million dollars...the Chiron and whatever Ferrari has up its sleeve on their next hypercar...Im sure Mercedes-AMG wants to dominate and spank both asses...and Im sure they can and will... They are probably being coy with the numbers...kinda like the Hellcats...and when it will be time to be shown and sold...BOOM! SURPRISE for everyone! Great engineering at work...this I agree!

Are you that dense? BMW and AUDI race with Porsche in another league... One that Ferrarri and Chevrolet races in... One that EASILY has the best history and the toughest endurance to its legendary name... About the 2018 Camaro ZL-1...not too shabby huh? All with just RWD NO AWD NO Mid engined buffonery and NO F1 engine and NO F1 suspension and NO F1 whatever...NO electric motor boosters NO carbonfibre everything... About the Corvette...specifically a 2021 or 2022 E-Ray... It probably will have 1000 plus horsepower...the next ZR-1 will be in the 750 plus horse range WITHOUT electric motors... Remember....this AMG Mercedes Project One has 650 turbocharged horses without the electrics additions... Remember...the C7R has a 5.5 liter V8 with "only" 500 some odd horses... Remember that a NEW motor is to be introduced for it...probably as high tech than anythong out there and quite beastlier than the legendary Chevrolet Small Block OHV it has now... Remember that the Chevrolet Small Block is quite a performer itself...as good as say...a F1 engine... Remember...that a Corvette know is VERY close related to its race car stablemate... Remember that Corvette Racing is VERY succesfull... Remember that a mid-engined Corvette is racing as of now... NextEV Nio EP9 6:45.90 Watch Onboard ’16 2. Radical SR8LM 6:48.00 Watch Onboard ’09 3. Lamborghini Huracan Performante 6:52.01 Watch Onboard ’18 4. Radical SR8 6:56.08 Watch Onboard ’05 5. Porsche 918 Spyder 6:57.00 Watch Onboard ’13 6. Lamborghini Aventador LP 750-4 Superveloce 6:59.73 Watch Onboard ’15 7. Viper ACR-Extreme 7:03.23 Watch Onboard ’17 8. Nissan GT-R Nismo 7:08.68 Watch Onboard ’15 9. Mercedes-AMG GT-R 7:10.92 Watch Onboard ’17 10. Gumpert Apollo Speed 7:11.57 Watch Onboard ’09 11. Dodge Viper SRT-10 ACR 7:12.13 Watch Onboard ’10 12. Porsche 911 GT3 7:12.70 Watch Onboard ’18 13. Lexus LFA Nurburgring Package 7:14.64 Watch Onboard ’12 14. Donkervoort D8 RS 7:14.89 Watch Onboard ’05 15. Camaro ZL1 1LE 7:16.00 Watch Onboard ’18

Because Chevy released the specs that you are able to conclude? Listen SMK...when the time comes for the E-Stingray to strut its stuff...then and only then will both of us can talk... Same thing with the Project-One... It will be a beast...bit to wax poetic about it NOW means nothing... I dont care about F1 engine, F1 transmission and F1 suspension.. F1 aint even the best racing series anymore... You said it yourself...BMW and Audi dont want to join F1... Hell...Ferrari is STILL threatening to QUIT F1... And yes...Ferrari dont dominate anymore...when Ferrari threatens to quit the racing series IT BUILT....things are not going good for F1 racing... That is like the Montreal Canadiens wanting to quit the NHL... The HABs have been sucking a looooong time....and the HABs are the OLDEST standing NHL team with the most Stanley Cups...where the NHL got the rights to the Cup AFTER the HABs were created....it wouldnt bode well if the HABs would want to leave to join the KHL... But Ill let you have your little Mercedes party.... Go at it...HAVE FUN!!!!

No need to do more. Leave them asking for more and when other future projects arrive...Mercedes-AMG will have them eating out of their hands again. They obviously CAN sell 500 EASILY as the 275 sold so quickly...there is no need though to do that. (We dont want to go down my theory of the CLA AMG argument...diluted...this way...AMG badging stays relevant) Oh...Nurburgring lap record... There is this car that is being engineered as we speak that will give fits to ALL Hypercars when it is scheduled to come out in 2019...no matter what price range...OK...maybe not right away...the supercars...but when it gains the electric motors in 2021 or 2022...the hypercars will be crying...

Questions that Im asking myself in my own personal thoughts...but obviously out loud! I wonder if the Ford haters are gonna hate on this one because of an "ecoboosted turbo V6" and not a V8? I wonder if all the Ford fanboys will feel vindicated and maybe feel superior as their turbo V6 is 3.5 liters...much larger than Mercedes' 1.6 liter unit?

Im also 100% sure that engineering will be the best of the best. Why? 1. Mercedes Benz...and when they want to engineer something good...hot damn they engineer something good. 2. AMG...They seem to ALWAYS engineer something good...at the high realm of the price spectrum that is... 3. For 1 million do... For....2 point...5 mill.. Yes...for 2.5 miiiiii llll ion dolllars It better be gobsmacking insanely quick and head exploding, mind phoquing great! Or all 275 buyers that ponied up for it will be unleashing their sharks with freaking lasers on their heads on dear old Dieter! Aesthetics..Germany is full of hot women...too bad they cant translate that to, for the most past, beautiful cars... Ill continue to believe that Italians do it better...

Balthy already addressed this... But Ill put up a link... http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a12199461/chevrolet-bolt-outselling-other-evs/

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hmn/2013/06/1971-Hemi--Cuda-Convertible/3726721.html Your fetching at auctions price tags for classic cars has got me kvetching The above link has a PLYMOUTH priced at sky high prices...and it kinda gives reasons why the fluctuations of price and why it sold high but not as high as some predicted (or hoped it would sell at)... You like to invent reasons to push the Mercedes agenda...its stupid! From wikipedia regarding your era and model Mercedes Benz...not that wikipedia is a valid source...but I Iike it because it contradicts your reality...and quite frankly, wikipedia's point of view is just as valid as yours for all intents and purposes... An opinion is an opinion is an opinion...but the thing is...at least wikipedia has some sort of REAL facts to go by and not imaginary-fairy tale realities... And although the link states why the 6.9 was expensive with various technologies and stuff and speed...it also indicates it was not so luxurious...it kinda puts a dent into your thoughts of Mercedes Benzes of that era as being posh... A high price tag dont mean its LUXURIOUS BTW... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W116 So much for you praising Mercedes Benzes wood interiors... VENEER!!!

That is what I always been doing. I did not know owners of web sites had the ability to charge to up load photos/videos etc... Its nice to know that you able us this service and let us enjoy your web site without strings attached. Its appreciated by me!

Now let ME move the phoquing bar... REAL performane guys dont buy ANYTHING from AMG...and this is what they think about "nice" interiors in REAL performance cars...

That is YOU moving the phoquing bar criteria... In the real world...where dollars and cents matter...and when REAL performance guys want a REAL performance car...for about 50 000 US...they dont choose the CLA AMG... Now...If a Camaro is RWD and a V8 and the CLA is FWD 4 door coupy thing...and NOT meant to go head to head with a RWD V8 performance coupe... Then why the phoque did Mercedes Benz introduce AMG to it if NOT to chase this segment? To sell cars...and yes...I agree... But THAT IS WHY I SAY AMG is DILUTING the AMG badge... To take a page from CCAP's trolling...not the Camaro's fault if Mercedes Benz is whoring out the AMG badge... The ecotech turbo 4 pot which has the ATS as a platorm stablemate certainly is in the FWD CLA's target... Again...becuase we all knoiw how you like to put FWD in the face of Cadillac...Ill just use CCAP's trolling tactics and say... Not Camaro;s fault or the ATS's fault for being RWD and Mercedes wants to go down market and compete with 20 000-25 000 dollar mainstrean vehicles and calling them entry level and adding top of the line AMG performance shyte to them that dont hold any real performance up grades from those very same mainstream cars...

What do you mean the CLA AMG is not a Camaro V8 competitor? Both delve into the performance world...both at around 50 000 US give or take a couple of Gs... Talking simply about dollars and cents and PERFORMANCE CRED as AMG IS KNOWN FOR PERFORMANCE and a CAMARO too... I dont do numbers...because numbers on any given day change...because of a 1001 reasons... but since we are in talks about AMG not being diluted... For the Camaro from Car and Driver Zero to 60 mph: 4.1 sec Zero to 100 mph: 9.2 sec Zero to 130 mph: 15.9 sec Zero to 150 mph: 25.4 sec Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 4.6 sec Top gear, 30-50 mph: 10.6 sec Top gear, 50-70 mph: 10 sec Standing ¼-mile: 12.4 sec @ 116 mph Top speed (C/D est): 165 mph Braking, 70-0 mph: 141 ft Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 1.05 g For the CLA AMG from CarandDriver Zero to 60 mph: 4.2 sec Zero to 100 mph: 10.6 sec Zero to 120 mph: 15.9 sec Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 5.7 sec Top gear, 30-50 mph: 3.7 sec Top gear, 50-70 mph: 3.4 sec Standing ¼-mile: 12.8 sec @ 110 mph Top speed (gear limited): 158 mph Braking, 70-0 mph: 152 ft Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad*: 0.94 g All that bolded part...is where the MEAT of REAL performance is... Do you hoinestly think an owner of a Chevrolet Camaro base V8 is intimidaded by the AMG badge of that shyte CLA? Let us not even talk about ZL-1 1 LE Camaros...this Ill put against ANY AMG ANY price tag... VW Golf R manual from Car And Driver Zero to 60 mph: 5.2 sec Zero to 100 mph: 13.0 sec Zero to 130 mph: 24.3 sec Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 6.3 sec Top gear, 30-50 mph: 10.5 sec Top gear, 50-70 mph: 7.5 sec Standing ¼-mile: 13.7 sec @ 103 mph Top speed (governor limited, C/D est): 150 mph Braking, 70-0 mph: 157 ft Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.95 g for shytes and giggles...and car and trim (GTi and now "R") that is half the price tag of the CLA ANG with Id say just as much street cred (GTi and now "R") as anything in the performance world has in store for us the last 20 years or so...comes just about close to the AMG CLA performance... With a turbo 4 cylinder as well but NO pretensions of being luxury and the best or nothing bullshyte mottos! But yeah...drink that Mercedes Kool-Aid and tell me AMGs are performing well being standrards that equal to that best or nothing moto or engineered like no other... And to better defend that bullshye...tell me that a Camaro does not compete with a CLA AMG for reasons only YOU want to believe in... AT the end of the day...the Camaro...a phoquing MAINSTREAM Chevrolet kicks the ass of a supposedly high end of performance royalty AMG...with the same price tag to boot, give or take, and the same passenger capacity space just about... LETS US NOT FORGET HOW MUCH I HATE A CAMARO!!!!

And that was our point... The irony is...that both you and @CCAP... while saying the CLA is not a bad car per se...a lot of innuendo is posted by both of you that sends a message that well....yes...the CLA is not that good... But BOTH of you are tooooooo afraid for some reason to actually admit it out right!!!! The Regal actually is better...in ANY metric ANYBODY wants to compare and contrast it with....ANY metric...moved goal posts and all...but the Regal will NEVER get that fair chance by YOU or even @CCAP because YOU believe this And @CCAP trolls with this The AMG version would be the sole model to excel but...all or nothing seems to be the MOTTO right? A tad loosey goosey with the "AMGs" could preform...I think... When a run of the mill V8 Camaro could run circles around the CLA AMG...that tells ME that AMGs are NOT performing... The essence of AMG is to perform like a supercar...not to be faster than the next model up from Mercedes Benz's stable...and let the AMG version of THAT model top all else below... THAT is how Mercedes has done it NOW...but THAT is what I meant by diluting... Seriously... Does an owner of a R/T Challenger be afraid of a CLA AMG? Does an owner of a regular V8 Camaro be afraid of a CLA AMG? Does an owner of a regular V8 Mustang be afraid of a CLA AMG? Move all the goal posts you want...tell me about 4 doors versus 2 doors...V8 versus V6 or whatever the CLA AMG has under its hood... When this was a thing Not too many SUPERCARS of the day touched it... Camaros, Trans Ams, Mustangs and even Vettes of the day did not even come close... And THAT is the thing... If American cars have advanced sooooooo much from those days....and lets face it...Germans cars have stumbled a lot from those days... Why do you (still think that Mercedes Benz is God-like) but mostly @ccap41 felt the need to feverishly troll to defend what is truly a POS from M-B? The CLA is a good enough product for a brand lower on the luxury scale...like a Mercury or Oldsmobile or Pontiac, Acura, Buick, VW maybe Lincoln... Mercedes, Cadillac, should NOT offer shyte like this! Yes...the ATS too!!!

I aint faulting BMW or Mercedes for doing that... I just find it may dilute their brand identity over time. I could be wrong...what do I know? But I got to tread carefully as to not offend any defenders of any brand as 1. I may be wrong 2. I may read articles the wrong way and I cant use them as proof as some defenders may not comprehend that same article the way I did...even though I highlighted the damned article like 3-4 times... 3. I could be right...but when I say it dilutes their brand identity...it may be false as it may dilute only 1...because that defender feels like its only THAT model that is diluted..not the other 3 or 4 that may have missed their mark... 4. meaning that that poster's opinion counts more than mine...even though I provided some sort of link yet the other poster did not...only voiced his anecdotal opinion and told me I was flipping out... 5. Its OK for him to tell me Im flipping when Im not but it aint OK for me to point out that he really is trolling 6. His comeback would be that it aint M-B or BMW's fault that they have built name recognition on the "M" and "AMG" badge and Cadillac has done squat with the "V"... Sorry about that... Something about former Motor Trend forum members not being able to argue like ADULTS that brings out the worst in me and I too....act like a bloody child!!! I aint faulting BMW or Mercedes for doing that... I just find it may dilute their brand identity over time. But hey...if it brings in the money for the short term...why the hell not! THIS WOULD BE MY LEGIT RESPONSE!

Most definitely! Its a cash cow for them. Both BMW and Mercedes with their "M" and "AMG" trims (because in all honesty, this is what they have become, relegated and subjected to) are nothing but a highest trim level offering for their models. All or most models as its no longer a necessity to be selective on what models get the super duper treatment... To boot...even the super duper treatment is no longer of the best or nothing treatment on certain cars...

That would be me. Thank-you for answering me. And thank-you for being honest about the Olds Aurora and the CLA.

But this is your problem... You wanna wear your superman cape and defend the CLA...because YOU deem it to be the ONLY Mercedes product to be able to be ragged on... And yet...you ALMOST wanna admit that it is truly a POS...but you have trolled on and blamed me for flippin' out...yet the truth comes out with a few sentences... Yet I stayed pretty darned straight in why and how I thought the CLA was a shyte car... No trying to be superman and hiding my true feelings... Like I said....YOU had a hidden agenda...like that playboy broad pic I posted... So....you dont understand why people pick on the CLA? I answered you...yet you still felt the need to troll me! TROLL!

https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/mercedes-benz/cla

Not my opinion...European reviewers... https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/mercedes-benz/cla And that is just for starters.... So yeah.... Not my opinion.... I dont really care what you like or dont like... YOU asked a question...I answered it...YOU ignored it... Like what a true troll does.... And deflects and says to the other person that he is the one flipping out... I aint flipping out...but you a trollin'

@ccap41 Here is a post that I made for you after the fact you CHERRY PICKED your point of view of not seeing how the CLA is SHYTE!!! Then you finally admit to it its a turd yet still wanna defend it slightly by saying if it was priced as a.... And yes...YOU are going outta your way to TROLL!!! Why else do you wanna include my restaurant and my employees? I called you out on your BS...DEAL WITH IT!!!

Like the pic with the playboy broad...the size of the wallet makes that dude attractive...and Im sure he is a wonderful human being too... The power of the badge...makes people look the other way... Unless of course it involves a Cadillac. PS: the BS part was for you... To prove an internet argument...you wanna go balls out and outta your way to tell us you see nothing wrong with the CLA...in looks and in execution...