surreal1272

Agreed but only one of those has had them for a century while bemoaning the other two for the exact same thing.

And on this rare occasion, we are in agreement lol.

And while we are at it, stop giving subsidies to industries like big oil who try to stifle any technological gains.

Maybe they are, maybe they aren't but when you have a history like theirs and the first car you bring back to the states is the 500, then you have already set yourself up for failure and mountains of criticism. Even worse, is that if they fail again, they take down an American company in the process. The conscequneces of their failure is far greater this time around as a result.

Again though Drew, my stance on Fiat is further supported by the current model of cars they offer, like the prize winner known as the 500. Their past is still present just by that one example. When I see three or four years of overall trouble free ownership of their cars, then I will be swayed. Until then, they have done nothing to convince me that they are any better than they were 30 years ago.

Some people would say the feeling is mutual. I wouldn't know though because I'm not a leftist.

My best friend used to have a 1985 Spider (that was a year old at the time) that was the most horrible pile I have ever seen. Also, the point was to show that while GM and Ford had some lemons over the decades (especially in the 80s), they simply do not pale in comparison to the Greek tradgedies that were Fiat and Alfa back then.

Normally I would agree on that point but you don't get a chance when you have the worst reputation in the world. I'm just going to leave this snippet from a 2011 Autoblog article. Pay close attention to the part in bold and then try to civic events me that domestics were ever this bad. Putting Bad Quality in the Rearview Mirror "As long as they have the quality high and competitive so as to avoid bad publicity, they will do well if they play up the 'La Dolce Vita" personality of Fiat and the Italian roots," says Charlie Hughes, industry consultant at Brand Rules, and the former marketing chief of Fiat when it was operating in the U.S. in the late 1970s. Hughes says the dark days of terrible Fiat quality during the Carter administration will only be relevant to a small number of buyers with long memories. One of them is Thomas Pellechia of Hammondsport, NY, an author. Pellechia said he lusted for a Fiat X1/9 in 1976, paying $4,000 for a chocolate brown two-seater with removable hard top. "Driving the X1/9 was exactly what I had expected it to be -- heaven," he said. "It not only looked intriguing and pretty, it felt right and comfortable. Acceleration was exhilarating, shifting was effortless, and being seen in this car was essential." Have you considered purchasing a Fiat 500? Yes. I love them! 1 (50.0%) No. Can't see myself driving one. The exhilaration quickly gave way to misery. The car would start up fine, but after a short while would buck and overheat, according to Pellechia, who said that several trips to the dealer brought no relief. After a terrifying break-down in the Holland Tunnel between New Jersey and Manhattan, and with fewer than 2,000 miles on the odometer, Pellechia says he unloaded it for $1,500 to a used car dealer. While that was relatively low mileage, Pellechia says the warranty had expired at just 1,000 miles. His experience wasn't unique. Hughes says of 100,000 Fiats sold in 1975, the company had huge warranty claims on 99,000. "It was bad, real bad," he said of the brand's quality. Today Fiat still ranks below average in J.D. Power's Vehicle Ownership Satisfaction Study in Europe. But the 500 stands out as an exception, ranking as the top city car, for example, in France.

Again, not debating the issues of the domestics as they are well documented and I have been a victim of them myself. However, they were far better than the crap being pumped out of Italy. Not sure why you keep sidesteepping that fundamental point but again, I am old enough to have experienced the repeated issues of Italian cars when they still existed in this country. It is also why I am not a fan of British cars.

Stop putting words in mouth Stew. Never said that you were a one brand fan but I know you are a fan of Mopar (damn autocorrect keeps changing it to "molar"), nothing less nothing more. Furthermore, I am actually old enough to have grown up with Fiats and Alfas (new models at the time) and that is why I will never trust them any farther than I can kick them. Again, while the domestics had their fair share of $h! on their hands, Alfa and Fiat stepped it up with good old fashioned diarrhea in bucket and it continues for another three decades after the crappy 80s while the domestics have improved drastically during that time. That is the fundamental difference here.

I am not ignoring anything Stew. I have clearly stated that the others have has their issues. It is you that has ignored the difference between them and Fiat/Alfa though, plain and simple. You have already moved the bar from not criticizing a preproduction car to now not criticizing an early or first year model car. I'm not even sure you would even have this stance if Fiat did not own Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep since you are a molar fan (nothing wrong with that btw, just to make that clear).

And while ocnblu wants to poopoo the Trump stance, he should understand that this whole deal reeks of cronimism and corporate back scratching (on top of the hypocrisy), courtesy of having a man in charge of the EPA who was in the middle of suing said department prior to his appointment and having an OIL TYCOON as our Secretary of State to help broker these new deals. If you don't see the obvious problem there, then there is no helping you.

GMs problem are nowhere close to Fiat and Alfas. It's not even the same sport trying to compare Fiat and Alfa to any of the domestics, as a matter of fact. Again, history speaks for itself and is 100% relevant to today's product, bad sunroofs and all.

LOL! Very true, or alternate truth if you will!

It is pretty petty but some people hate facts. My question would be how the hell is he able to give two negative votes at once where everyone else gets one every 24 hours?

That wasn't my question and you are deflecting by continuing to bring up a car that does not have the $h!ty history that Alfa does. Yes it is 100% comparable and who gives two $h!s whether its an old platform or not. How many times does it have to be said that those cars are still being built by the same unreliable people with the same bad history, thus resulting in a subpar product? Sorry, but I will continue to call a spade a spade here. The funny thing here is that you continue to use a car or two from different manufacturers to support your argument when it doesn't. Why? Because while it's true that others have problems with certain cars at one time or another, Fiat and Alfa had and continue to have problems with ALL of their cars ALL of the time and that is the difference you are clearly not getting.

Their $h!ty sales numbers and their $h!ty reliability absolutely went hand in hand. It's not even a debatable subject for anyone old enough to remember those piles (and I do lol).

What else do you expect from the hypocrite in charge. Do as he says, not how he does. BUY MURICAN!

That's because the expdeisel costs more to buy but maybe I'm just using common sense math here lol.

The thing is that this is the same argument that was used for Fiat when they first came back here. How has that worked out for them? Last I checked, they were still huge piles so history is fair to use in the case of Alfa.

So we are moving the bar from not being able to criticize a preproduction model to not being able to criticize an early production model?

And it was not a preproduction model.

That's what I thought. So it seems like it's not just the preproduction Alfas suffering from quality issues. Interesting and not a good sign for FCA.

So my question is, was this a pre-production tester @Anthony Fongaro?

I absolutely will.