turbo200

yep, it's what everyone else and the mainstream media are calling these cars, so they should go by this.

G6 concept reminds me a lot of the classic, clean but stout and sporty last generation Gran Prix, a great example of what Pontiac should be, and a car that sold very well. The concept looks like a $32k on the high end, and on the low end at least $22k car. They should have completely dropped the Gran Prix and marketed this car like the replacement for both, with expensive features, engines, materials, design throughout. It would have been the car to kill at Pontiac. Remember when we were all so excited by the concept? What a letdown this car has turned out to be. sorry, G6 fans, it's a solid car, just nothing special like we know GM is capable of doing.

The concept to production G6 is a clinical example of what a few subtle lines can do to dramatically change the image of the car. G6 production more feminine, lines less subtle, more overt and less romantic. The lines on the fascia, the bumper and the hood are too much, overdone, the concept handles that Pontiac trait much better. The pinched headlights on the production that come to a sharp point are Japanese looking and lend the G6 an Accord vibe. Dramatically arched beltline that is handled much better on the concept. Again the surfacing on the doors is stouter, much more active looking and manly---grace. This car exhibits grace. The roofline and greenhouse, C-pillar all deal with the wheelbase issue much much better than the production version. Again the surfacing on the doors and overall squat wide look work real well. To the rear everything is a mess on the production version. The Pontiac typical placement of the eyes and familiar upright leading edge of the trunk and the license plate shape are all completely Grand Am. Basically that rear is the Grand Am with different taillamps. The concept is much more Acura. Again, the details matter and make the huge difference. The ruby red taillights are classy and well detailed, the gentle slope of the trunk and bumper, the overall less flat look of it all, less upright and smoother, lending yet again to that 4 door coupe look. This is the prototype for the MB CLS....look at the similarities!! Imagine how much better this car would be doing if it were what we got instead of the mostly poorly executed production version!! GM looked at the G6 and decided it didn't look enough like the Grand AM, and that it would encroach on the Grand Prix by looking way too luxurious/expressive/classy [am I putting too much though in it]. That second point I am not sure of, it makes a lot of sense, but the Grand Am reference is clearly there, there is a crapload of old Pontiac in this car, too much, it should have continued to move far away to the original beautiful image of the concept. It should have moved completely in that direction. It may not be too late to do it, I think it's a classy good look and the rendition of the Pontiac grille works well here for me, with the eyes on a completely different plane from where the mouth finishes and the lower grille completing the face. The "Did it stand the test of time" test is necessary here....the concept looks modern now and it was clearly ahead of its time when it debuted. The production version looks current, but it's always been kind of awkward, although GTP cleans it up a lot.

Sounds terrific, can't wait for more information on all these cars. I was just thinking today of what a head bangingly stupid thing it is to give Suzuki such a nice powerful SUV (XL-7) and the engines in the American Thetas are so underpowered, comparatively. I hope you are right about the STS for '08 and that the changes are dramatic. But, how dramatic were the changes? I mean how significantly did the changes seem to the body? Thanks.

acura will be moving up the price/image scales, along with honda. all their newer cars are moving upmarket, mostly in image, but also in price. empowah, I agree with your favorites.

Blatant example of GM cheaping out highlighted. It would be relatively easy to license the tech from BMW, after all BMW bought trannies from GM for years, I don't see why the flip wouldn't be possible.You have every right to nitpick, groan, moan, and especially since you are the demographic GM wants to keep, a paying customer!!!, you need to share your opinions. In keeping the faith, GM has let me down, I think every single person on this site could agree with that statement. It's the rays of brilliance that allow me to keep the faith.

you are no voice if you think this is a prophecy. we have been saying this same mantra for years at this website. they have limited time to try and save some market share and fix some image. In Los Angeles, the cars are completely irrelevant. Only Cadillac makes a difference car-wise in LA......that is very bad and sad and shows how extreme the perception of GMs cars are in the market. THE ISSUE is Wagoner and Lutz are not to blame for where they've gotten to. You've been told a million times the real product is coming, so it's pretty useless at this point. I think the operators of this website should seriously evaluate your contribution at this point. You are repetitive and detract from conversations.

I see good old razor is at it again. I was going to let this one go, but you've continued posting and spreading your fallacies so I had to respond. The Enclave is sabotagging Buick like the CTS sabotagged Cadillac. Sabotagging would be what Saturn had done to them for years prior to this year. Buick has gotten new product in the last few years, the Lucerne and Lacrosse and the Enclave is one of the best designed product GM will have released since the original CTS. Of your list above, it is hard to disagree with anything there, EXCEPT that 90% of it has nothing to do with Bob Lutz. Both Lutz and Wagoner have gotten their fair bit of criticism from us; everytime someone puts down a product here that has come out recently, it is tied directly to them. However, you do not understand the fine points of running an automotive company, that works years ahead in development. Right now, the design for the next Corvette is being researched, even though the current one is only two years old. The next GM 1000 pickups and SUVs are reaching crucial development stages, 2009 Impala and Camaros are being finalized. It takes a lot of time for results to happen especially with a company as large and bureaucratic as GM. As much as we have been taught that there is no such thing as underestimating GM, we will have to wait and see if the next round of product can prove to be some revolutionary product.

It shows cost-cutting because GM/or whatever company, did not devote the money and resources to develop the significant technologies needed for this class of vehicles to market to the upscale. Not having LEDS does not hurt the potential of the Enclave in the grand scheme of things. It is like pushrod technology or 4 spd automatics, however, and it will contribute negatively to cheapen the essence of GM vehicles. Why can't they have the most modern of technologies available at all levels? Why do they insist on this Sloanian crap of filtering technologies? I guess the whole reason is because marketers still don't see the Acadia and Enclave as attracting different consumer bases. That is too bad, but sacrificing the features that modern consumers expect on thier expensive cars makes no sense. Not adopting LEDs ultimately does not make sense but isn't a deal breaker. The Enclave looks to be a great vehicle, but the wheels from the concept need to be made for production, exactly.

for one, GM is not nationally advertising a lot of incentives these days, or I'm just not paying attention. That is a good thing that nationally advertised incentives are dropping. That's just wasteful money, money spent on incentives, or giving the vehicle away, and money spent to let everyone know that they are giving the cars away. The positive is the stock is at a good value, the negative is it still needs to go higher. We are finally entering a good product stage, but the product has a lot to do. the new product must be met with a very good reception otherwise things will remain as negative as they have been. The new product they do have coming out, from early reports, looks to be very good, and in some cases, perhaps, here comes that word, revolutionary. Also, GM should report profit this year. That is a very good thing.

i expected it to look like this from the spy shots. it has been disappointing to me for a while. too korean in design as some have stated, though the interior is definitely nice. will complement the rest of the saturns pretty well though. could have been much much better

To offer another perspective on Buickman to complement Guion's great post...... Guion made an important point about sales tactics that I feel needs more emphasis/detail. Buickman is a lifer. Started in the business probably around 25 years ago. When World War II ended and the economy started booming again, salesman couldn't find enough time to sell people cars. They began the idea of "qualifying" to determine who was going to buy today. In short, here began the sales trade of pressure and buy today, because there are too many consumers out there that are ready to buy for you to be wasting my time. If salesman are trained to do one thing well, it's to push people over the edge. The good salesman recognizes when a push is needed, and when not to push. Buickman was in the business when Buick was selling close to a million cars yearly, or maybe more I'm not sure exactly on that point of history. In sales, when the salesman is not selling, it is always a reflection of him. He has to go back to the drawing board and try to remember the basics of the repetitive selling nature. If your point is not getting through, you must try again. Again and again. Did you make sure you got your point through, did you ask for the business, did you conquer this obstacle? Basic sales training. Buickman is in a completely different market landscape today. Buick is not even a shadow of its former monstrous self. GM is much the same way. For this, we have years of incompetency and bad decision-making by managment. Titanic didn't sink two minutes after take-off. It took hours of bad decisions, and then when it was finally sinking, it took even more time to go fully down. Unfortunately, the salesman has to keep going, typically unaware of what exact market changes are influencing his/her bad sales month/year. I won't make any assumptions about Buickman's training. I will say he probably amassed a small fortune selling Buicks all these years, and that is how he was able to acquire stock in GM. He is an oldtimer, just like the oldtimers who believed the Cavalier was okay with just another refresh. The oldtimers full of audacity and arrogance riding the waves so high, too high to see how thier pride would lead to thier downfall. They didn't want to listen to the 10 silly customers who were buying Civics, they underestimated how far and high Japanese companies could come by having a bullet proof work ethic and an incredible penchant for excellence. In short, they were too busy worrying about themselves to do any work. I don't know how insightful this post is, I'll have to reread later and maybe add some more. just wanted to try and enlighten on Buickman's position. He could also be royally pissed off about how much money he used to make, and how little he makes today. Regardless of his capabilities, the money is no where near what it used to be. And it used to be pretty great amounts.

The Lucerne is a prime candidate for an extensive refresh in a year. It is doing very well, and a couple minor but substantial changes could keep it very fresh and attractive.

absolutely!in the coming generation design will be more competitive and crucial than ever. The problem Caddy has is that they haven't had enough time to mature their design cues, and they haven't progressed from the original CTS look enough. Audi's look is cemented in people's heads, and improving, BMW, Infiniti, MB are all taking thier design through different evolutions. Cadillac started with the most breakthrough design on the market, but now everyone has got a real fluid looking car that looks like nothing else on the market. The Statesman is not enough car for Cadillac, especially not for one that has to raise in price. DTS is selling at inflated numbers thanks to fleet magic, the real market is not as big as the numbers make it seem, though it is still significant. Selling another DTS instead of radically improving the CTS and STS at those price points of the current DTS would be a huge mistake on Cadillac's part. Let Buick pick up DTS customers with a fancy Statesman.

northie, will the 08 cobalt mce resemble this, or incorporate a lot or nothing at all? will the future cobalt, maybe '10 be this car?

What is wrong with the picture? Toyota had 0% financing and huge resale value-diminishing rebates on thier cars in September, I know, I was with a friend who was looking at a Highlander and the salesman gave all the specials away on the lot. GM's SUVs are selling at expectations without major incentives. SUVs were never supposed to be a big segment this year. Demand is clearly shifting away from them. We hit higher than $3/gallon this year, and STILL the 900s have posted sales increases. Lutz is one of the few reasons GM has shreds of hope yet. Thanks to his shaking up of the design/development process, GM has excellent forthcoming cars to look forward to. Thanks to GM's reasonable thinking, we now have a company that has completely shifted away from fire sales, for the sake of image, sales be damned. They are losing sales to the competition, just so that they can get away from image-diminishing incentives. I'd say they learned the hard way and now are crashing against the waves for a little while until the good stuff comes out.

it's not being negative, it's being realistic. you don't have to feel down for them either, they have had plenty of warnings and have been told what changes were needed. the biggest problem they are all facing is image. image needs product to change it. the problem has always been they haven't been able to figure out what they are doing wrong with product to achieve the image they have. the answer is mostly everything they have done has been wrong in one way or another. sit in a tahoe today, brand new, excellent engine chassis and look, the interior still looks outdated, still feels flimsy, still has lousy tolerances in some areas, and just fails to impress all around. they could be doing more to change still. they had a window of opportunity these last few years, but kept with 0% instead and no major good product intros. the leaders of the pack, STS, G6, impala have been all completely uninspired and riddled with image problems thanks to the same mistakes made over and over again.

it won't work itself out. there are people who wouldn't be seen driving an American car. That's not a good reason, imo, so I usually look at those people in a pretty disgusted way. Others won't drive because they think they are inferior in a number of way, I too think this is too general of a reason so I usually pry if that is the answer. Why do you think they are inferior? They just seem cheaply made. That sometimes is the answer, other times it can be a more general vague remark. To think the circle will complete itself is rather naive and ludicrous. To think that all of a sudden quality and workmanship will start to decrease for no good reason other than Toyota/Honda's mutual masterful discipline all of a sudden had a great lapse is pretty ludicrous too. It will take a long time, and a lot of incredible, never before seen designs to steal back consumers. It will also take the typical refinement that is expected in those cars. And still, most Honda/Tioyota buyers will still stick with what they know best. They know the car, they trust the car, they place thier heart in the idea that this will be the car that will serve them well. It is very very hard to undo that thinking.

in a couple of years the Lacrosse will make great 10k cars for legions of teens needing practical transportation. As for actual aspirational value, the car does not belong in the same price range as most of its competition.

hmmmm,....the numbers are not that bad considering the incentives were not nearly as big as Ford or Chrysler. Cadillac's car lineup will be hugely revitalized when NG CTS debuts, that car couldn't come fast enough. GM has a good plan going forth, they just need the right product to support it.

Gosh Ford's sales are really hurting this year. Car sales are way off, the Focus is only doing 140k? Haven't looked at the Cobalt yet though.....compared to 270k the Civics are doing, that's not good. Truck sales are way off too, Explorer is off 60k from last year?! And it's a new body. I helped one of those Explorer sales though, helped a friend buy one.

Honda's not on fire? they're not doing bad, nothing like Toyota's September Tent Event however

Toyota incentives are high....around here 0% along with rebates were the norm on most of thier cars, except Rav4 and Camry, I beleive. Sienna had cash back of $2500 from the factory. Toyota is incetivizing their cars rather high these days, don't know if that's a recent trend or something that has been going on for a while. Thier resale value seems to already be sufferring because of it, the more cars they put in the used car market, the more saturation will occur, resale is bound to hurt. They also fleet a pretty nice portion of those Camry sales, around 30k or so, of course that's nothing compared to what GM does, but Honda has like 2k Accords for the year that have been fleeted. Toyota is really all about the volume these days.

the GMC is too similar to the F-150. It's nice and should do relatively well, maybe the Denali will make up for it. I do prefer the current look to both of these. the Silvy looks generic and it's disposition changed, it no longer has attitude now it's just friendly, which could work....

get over your heart, it doesn know how to run a company.