balthazar

I have a 3/8" MAC socket set, spotted it in the back seat of a blue '77-79 Impala in my favorite junkyard. I opened the door & reached in, praying the red plastic case would be heavy when I picked it up. It was (pays to keep your eyes open). I was just a kid, this was circa 1983, been my go-to set ever since- nothing in it has ever broken. BTW- it was notably used in '83. Bought 2 Husky metric sets about 5 years ago in a moment of relaxed standards, and have broken 3 pieces in it to date. Chinese garbage- never again. As I have pretty much all the hand tools I'll ever need, I haven't parused Sears much, but recently I noticed hand tools there packaged on brown cardboard with green printed labeling, called 'evolv" - all made in China. I have never held a Craftsman-branded hand tool that was stamped 'Made in china' - is this true? Ahh well, I have numerous toolboxes full already. Snap-On makes good stuff, plus a hadnful of really neat pieces, but it's all overpriced. The Kobalt stuff looks decent, but I'd like to test it's durability before laying out cash. The stuff I've held there has been USA made - wonder who makes it for them? I also have quite the mixture of hand tools, about 75% are used, older, and built pretty danged tough- no complaints. This past year I came into a large lot of Klein tools (primarily electrical: strippers, needle-nose, linesman pliers, side cutters, etc)- Klein makes a fantastic product that gets overlooked because it's usually over in the electrical aisle. All mine are USA made.

The GTX was driving by in the other direction at about 45 MPH, so the look-see was brief, but I was standing at the crub when the Goat rumbled by 2 feet from me at 5 MPH due to a construction zone. Car was clean enough to lick the length of and not taste dust. Hood tach, deck wing, trimring-less Rallye IIs..... hmmm, did I miss whether or not it was a Judge ?!!?

>>"Lets face it Pontiac only did good things when they broke the rules."<< The only 'rule' PMD broke was slipping the 389 into the GTO and calling the whole thing an option, getting around the internal Corp policy that the standard engined intermediate couldn't have more than 10lbs of vehicle weight per CI. The Engineering Policy Committee did not involve themselves with the specifics of options, so the GTO snuck under the fence as an option. Most of the rest of PMD's "good things" were on the up-n-up & by the book: FI, 3x2, 2+2, Wide-Track, GP, Firebird, RA, etc etc etc. Wangers isn't infallible. Paging thru his book Glory Days, I see a pic that always catches my eye- an 8-lug wheel (page 79). Caption claims "Pontiac was the first to offer a styled road wheel in 1960", yet you'd think Wangers would know that it was actually Cadillac that did this with the Sabre-Spoke of '55-58, esp since it came from the same company (Kelsey-Hayes).

All today: lambo glardo, primer grey ferrari testicleroaster (do you have to ask what color?) '70 GTX convertible, dark green, mint '70 Chevelle SS hardtop, white, mint '70 GTO, f'in flawless, Orbit Orange '69 El Camino, slightly rough but rollin '66 Biscayne 2-dr sedan, med blue, flawless, on a trailer, packing 14's with a 10.45 dial-in on the window (2) 1st gen Mustang coupes '63 Impala convert, bright red, mint 'My' lil Chevy dealer apparently tucks his '10 Victory Red Camaro inside when closed, saw it peeking out the service bay doors this afternoon.

>>"Jims point on the T-37 is if Pontiac was to be a upscales performance division why offer a decontented car? That was the job of the almost forgotten Heavy Chevy Chevelle. Chevy was your value leader. If you bought Pontiac it needed to be a step up from Chevy not down."<< When did Pontiac ever push it was "upscale from Chevy" ?? Pontiac always stood on it's own ground in the '60s & '70s (and into the '80s). And they've always traded on & off w/ Chevy WRT features over the years : the only 2 lines to get FI for '57-58, if you recall (Corvette continued it into the '60s). Mid '71 'Heavy Chevy' was NOT a decontented Chevelle- it added just over $100 MORE to a base Chevelle. It was a decontented Chevelle SS. Not comparable to the T-37, sorry. Car was a complete sales flop (6727 in '71, 9508 in '72 -- T-37 was 20K units in '71.5 alone) and was still less expensive than the T-37, tho they were quite close. But again; the Tempest was only 2% higher in price than the T-37, and the Tempest & Chevelle were close to begin with. Splitting hairs. But in this era, there was not much cross-divisional shopping at the showroom level. T-37 absolutely was a step UP from the Chevelle & awkwardly named Heavy Chevy Chevelle (an appearance/equipment package by itself), and the enthusiasts were drawn to the performance package the GT-37 represented, whereas before there was no Tempest line package (GTO = separate series). T- & GT-37 = success. Heavy Chevy = failure. >>"The Grand Am, 455 SD and 455 HO were too rare to really make a differance. "<< What the hell is this ?? Completely immaterial. It's a shield to deflect the fact that these performance offerings were there in the first place. Proof Pontiac was still building performance/sporty offerings, and it cannot be swept under the rug. BTW- GA sold nearly 71K units over it's initial 3-yr run. Ferrari sells nothing compared to everything else, it makes a difference to most. Immaterial. No- the blame is not with Pontiac, IMO; it's with Chevy. DeLorean was over at Chevy after Pontiac- he continued to push performance there, and it undermined Pontiac from below. Remember, if you accept that : what the hell were they doing with all those SSs and RSs and S-3s, etc ??? >>"Then the Tubo V6 TA [ You need to not confuse it with the 301] was a great car but again how many were made? "<< I was referring to the '80-81, not the '89. 'How many were made'?? Again- you are confusing Pontiac's focus with Chevy's- where crushing volume is the core focus. Doesn't matter how many of (either of) the Turbo T/As were built, the fact remains there WERE THERE for those who bought them. >>"GM spent too much time selling the tubo in the GN and GM let the TA just be another Chevy. Buick should have been a luxury car not a performance car. Pontiac should have been a performance car not a luxury car."<< Right- what a bunch of wasted time, effort & money building those thousands of GSs, GSXs, 442s, Chevelle SSs in this period - no profit or brand cache there. While I'll readily agree than Pontiac has been under-funded WRT advertising since the late '80s, you are still comparing (and condemning) Pontiac of the '70s & '80s by comparing it to Pontiac of the '60s. Interesting, but invalid. You & Wagners) also still fail to see Chevrolet's part in squeezing Pontiac out and bleeding over into most of the other divisions (including adapting Cadillac design cues for their '77 B-Body), all in the name of volume. Unfortunately, 'the same thing badged as a Chevy' will never ever come close to equalling the volume of everything else it has buried throwing it's weight around. Wagners has been bitter since being rebuffed by PMD / GM. By the late '70s, the company he was associated with (Evans) was primarily concerned with vinyl roofs. You can imagine his crushed pride....

>>"Performance built Pontiac in the 60's and 40 years of too little performance killed them."<< 40 years from now is 1968. Too long a span to claim performance was not given the proper attention. Try 30 and live with it. >>"Gave us decontented Chevys as a T-37."<< Wangers (or anyone else) cannot rewrite history. T-37 was in no way a 'decontented Chevy', and continuing to state such lies only perpetuates the myth that GM products have ALWAYS been 'badge engineered'. It's not accurate and it must stop. T-37 was only $67 cheaper base price than a Tempest- that was only 2% lower. It's meaningless, and does not belong in a list of 'where PMD went wrong'. If anything, the 455 GT-37 added performance image to the Tempest line, not subtracted it. However, MacDonald was not the firebrand PMD had had or needed. The rest of the PMD GMs were not as dedicated to the marque as those preceeding them, it's true, but PMD still was the premier performance division thruout the '70s- SD455, 455HO, W-72, these engines and a few others were still the go-to for performance & performance potential among GM. Camaro was struggling with only a 350 while the T/A was offering a 455! PMD is still not getting the credit due for the '73-75 GA- there you could get a 455/4-spd in a 4-dr sports sedan. Case can still be made for the Turbo T/A, which -tho not quick by today's standards... people quickly forget it was in the same realm as a ferrari 308. Tho the pure dedication of DeLorean, Estes & Malone was not recreated under later management, PMD product still served the Division's focus well into 1980s. Relative to earlier PMD product, it's easy to point fingers, but the '70s & '80s need to be compared to it's competition, not earlier Pontiacs. -- -- -- -- -- Not that I think it will neccesarily come to pass, but --as opposed to ,say, Oldsmobile-- a Pontiac niche model can always make a return, the heritage is so great and long-running. Performance will always have an audience, and with the Draconian view of tommorow's offerings, a re-emrgence of PMD has more chance of happening down the road than another other discontinued marque in history, IMO. The opportunity to once again be the 'bad boy' marque will only grow in the future.

No SS's; only 2 Chevys : '63 Nova convertible, '04 Silverado HD

Most hot rodders are just that nice RE other's feelings... that, and they don't consider a pruis worthy of the 2-3 gallons a dust-off would take. :wink:

Could work, need a break before the storm hits. Folks stopping by tomm for something grilled for dinner. Praying for 4 straight hours alone with the Buick.

>>"Mine would be mostly 2 1/2 hours of car chases, shoot outs, explosions, gratuitous lesbian sex scenes and to tie it all together, Samuel L. Jackson calling someone a motherf@#ker. Really, what more do you need? "<< Save me a center level, aisle seat and a jumbo popcorn, no butter slime !!

Pristine '66-67 Riviera, an Aqua color, flawless & rumbling. For me; was like one of you seeing an Enzo.

I looked into buying a '70 Polara 2-dr hardtop about 4 years ago, just because it had the Super-Lite option. Too pricey.

My Chevy dealer is tiny (circa 20-vehicle lot) but seems to move a lot of product over a wide-ish area w/ no other Chevy competition (since circa '55, too). I haven't heard either way. He has a Camaro for some weeks, but the dealer right up the road from me (Ford/Linc/Merc, B-P-GMC, Chevy/Cadillac) still doesn't have one.

3 or 4 individual guys' opinion, nothing more.

>>"Those are more common than you'd think. "<< Weird how I never caught any of those before hyundai's (maybe their ads just weren't quite as obnoxious), but OK.

Apparently you don't pay attention to the mainstream news channels; it's only GM that has recalls.

Wait... lessee if I have this right: An $80,000 car first offers a 6-spd auto in the U.S. in 2002, and GM is "way behind" for not offering one until what- 2007 ??? Golly.

circa '70 Nova coupe, burgandy, tubbed, flawless. '66-67 Riviera, gold, unrestored, a bit worn. '62 Ford F-100 UniBody, "Lymon" green, sharp cruiser. '58 Merc Turnpike Cruiser 2-dr hardtop, like a velvet dream, a pearlescent vision.

This is nothing new. Local dealers are advertising all sorts of unbelievable, outrageous deals ; one in my listening area was giving away a free '09 accent with the purchase of a leftover '08 santa fe !!! I don't recall GM ever offering a "2-for-1" deal. The hyundai dealers come off like a pack of slavering mongooses (or is that mongeese ??) You didn't actually think hundai sales were up because of PRODUCT, did you ??

>>"CAFE isn't calculated with consumer EPA figures, but rather pre-2008 MPG that hasn't been adjusted. The Camaro V6, which gets 23-mpg combined, achieves 29-mpg combined CAFE."<< Any more detail on this; me confuseded.

>>"The windows can be rolled up after the car in turned off and the keys removed. "<< Windows at least used to be wired 'hot'- my '64 GP's power windows work whether the key is in/on or out/off. I believe the power antenna works the same way. -- -- -- -- -- There's something funky on my Silverado, IIRC - when you lock the doors w/ the FOB from INSIDE, then open the door with the handle- the alarm goes off. I can't figure out why they triggered the alarm to the inside handle just because the FOB is inside the truck. Has happened about 3 times in the last 3 years.

Agreed that the discussion here is mostly of degree- valid points made on both sides. Hyper- your last post cleared some points up for me. But I must mention again that the plea for the Camaro to 'find a way to get better MPG' is at least slightly humerous today; it ALREADY exceeds the MPG of the 'future trend' 4-cyl turbo WRX. The performance 4-cyl/boosted models (yes; primairly imports) get far closer to the "heritage" musclcar MPG of the mid teens than they do to 42 MPG. They are JUST AS MUCH under the hammer to increase MPG to survive as -say- the Camaro... but they have less room to 'progress' than the Camaro does since they are already at 4-cyls & smaller/slightly lighter. Very well may be that the 100s of lbs of AWD will have to be dropped at some point, or are new 'performance' cars all going to be sized like a SMART (which only gets 38 MPG).

Performance part sales is but a snapshot of the relatively tiny enthusiast % of new car consumers- it's very questionable as an indicator of consumer trends at large, even for the performance segment. What percentage of any given performance model gets modded ?? Mitsu only sold 97K TOTAL vehicles in the US last year- how many were evos? The last thing in the world the Camaro needs to do, now that's it's finally back and completely relevant again, is to be 'more like the imports', because the import loyalists are not going to look at it anymore than the American muscle car fan is going to look at the wrx/evo types, and all that will do is disenfranchise the American performance coupe pool. It's already at the head of the class in performance with the V6, yet also offers a 426HP version. WRX is 3400lbs yet a full 16" shorter than the Camaro, but it only offers 17/27 vs. the Camaro's 18/29, and stickers at $35K vs. the Camaro LT2's $26K. Overpricing the Camaro is not going to raise sales nor gain conquests, nor is offering bloated, misshapen sheetmetal & plastics. Would WRX sales be affected if it was a N/A V-6 car instead ?? I think not. This crowd is going to buy what they want, but the Camaro was never intended to be a conquest vehicle, it was always intended to serve the gigantic musclecar contingency- both old & new school. This is does awesomely well right out of the gate. Don't forget- the Camaro has been absent for 7 long years, of course performance part sales are going to reflect that to a degree. But it's back, baby, as is the Challenger... and this competition is only going to fuel Mustang modding, too. Analyzing specifics specs is never the way to 'prove/disprove' the potential success of a given vehicle, which only ALWAYS competes for the buyer's money as a package.

>>"Side by side, Camaro's design appears natural and classic while everything about the Genesis says "I'm trying too hard"."<< I would've said 'not trying hard enough'. In this still-constricting market, (not to mention the design doldrums the industry in general has been in for the las 20 years) bold design is going to be more important than ever. The hyundai is already 'dated' in that is looks like a late '90s generic. >>"But as you say, not bad for a first attempt. The Camaro is just better sorted with a higher degree of finesse. In addition to the stunning looks."<< Agreed.

Stehrenberger (tho excellent as usual) is still drawing exactly the same manner he did in the '80s. Except for the rubber-band tires & 24"s, this looks like it could've been drawn in 1985. Cute in a way, ugly in many more, useless in every way. Calls for frames & RWD are ridiculous- how much could anyone pile in a 6 SQ FT bed ????