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GM Officially Cancels Zeta Buick


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General Motors' on again, off again rear-wheel drive sedan plans are, well, off again. The U.S.' largest automaker has been mulling over a rear-wheel drive Chevrolet Impala and a rear-wheel drive Buick sedan, but both plans have been canceled due to newly passed CAFE regulations.

A source familiar with GM's plans revealed to Automotive News that GM had actually planned to release a rear-wheel drive Impala in 2011. The design featured a long hood and short decklid and was about 3 inches longer than the front-wheel drive 2008 model.

The source also revealed that the rear-wheel drive Impala was slated to get an SS version, which would have featured a V8 producing more than 350 horsepower.

However, the 35 mpg CAFE regulations have forced GM to scraps its large rear-wheel drive plans. Both of the canceled models were slated to ride on the same Zeta platform that underpins the Pontiac G8 and the upcoming 2010 Chevrolet Camaro.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/gm-officially-...uick-model.html

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This is a smart move. And it'll give the new LaCrosse, which will be better than the current vehicle and roomy-enough, some breathing space in Buick showrooms too.

The "full-size" sedan market is a loser from a business standpoint too. Not just because of CAFE either. It's been shrinking for years, and going to continue to contract as buyers look to smaller cars.

GM needs to plot all its vehicles on a graph. 2 axes: sales potential on one and profit margin on the other. Full-sized sedans end up in the worst quadrant: low profit because of high incentives and low sales potential because of shrinking market. GM ran its factories in the 1st quarter of 2008 at 76% of capacity. Factor in another 10% too high of reliance on fleet sales and you've got about 7 or 8 assembly plants they need to close to get close to 100% plant capacity (the holy grail of profitability). My vote starting with full-sized sedans would be:

> Detroit-Hamtramck

> Doraville (minivans)

> Moraine (mid-sized BOF SUVs)

> Wilmington (find a way to build the Solstice and Sky at Bowling Green)

> Orion (G6 is quickly becoming a fleet queen - get rid of her and let the new LaX shine at PBG dealers)

> Lordstown (build the Deltas in Korea)

> your choice of 2 full-sized P/U and SUV plants (the demand is not coming back ever)

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> Detroit-Hamtramck (Let's See- Volt, Zafira, etc...) Closure Not Going to Happen

> Doraville (minivans) Already Closed

> Lordstown (build the Deltas in Korea) Not Going to Happen.

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I'm heart broke too, but they know where the market is heading, and unfortunately, for fans of bigger, V8 Sedans, it's looking like you'll have to pony up to a $60,000 Caddy if you want something like that.

Guys, from the looks of things, I think the US auto industry returning to the "glory days" of awesome RWD V8 sedans isn't going to come to us now, thanks to high oil prices and our Government. I'd be willing to bet that in a few short years, aside from Caddy, GM will only have the Camaro, maybe the G8, and the smaller Kappa platform to satiate our taste for rear drive. Hopefully, and I mean hopefully, that 1 Series small rear driver (Alpha) hasn't been put on the backburner, because I think if marketed right, it could be badged as a Saturn, Pontiac or Buick and sold as a really cool American alternative to say, a the aforementioned 1 Series, or the G35.

In the meantime, I think we can all hope that GM can get it's proverbial sh*t together and come out with a really awesome new Cobalt and get the Volt launched with unbridled success post haste - because right now the focus is on fuel economy and price.

Edited by gmcbob
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I also think an Alpha based sedan could be sold as a Nova in the States - complete with the Turbo 4 that's in the Cobalt SS. But I think we have a better chance of seeing a human being launch a golf ball on Mars than we do that. :lol:

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Well, that's what we've all read about Hamtramck but maybe it's another GM mistake??? Theoretically, since the Zafira is a Delta-based vehicle it should be built on the same line as the Cobalt. Pick one: Lordstown, Hamtramck or GM-DAT -- not all three. The Volt will be practically handbuilt -- if it ever goes into production. It should also be built at the chosen Delta plant.

> Detroit-Hamtramck (Let's See- Volt, Zafira, etc...) Closure Not Going to Happen

> Doraville (minivans) Already Closed

> Lordstown (build the Deltas in Korea) Not Going to Happen.

Edited by buyacargetacheck
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This is a smart move. And it'll give the new LaCrosse, which will be better than the current vehicle and roomy-enough, some breathing space in Buick showrooms too.

The "full-size" sedan market is a loser from a business standpoint too. Not just because of CAFE either. It's been shrinking for years, and going to continue to contract as buyers look to smaller cars.

GM needs to plot all its vehicles on a graph. 2 axes: sales potential on one and profit margin on the other. Full-sized sedans end up in the worst quadrant: low profit because of high incentives and low sales potential because of shrinking market. GM ran its factories in the 1st quarter of 2008 at 76% of capacity. Factor in another 10% too high of reliance on fleet sales and you've got about 7 or 8 assembly plants they need to close to get close to 100% plant capacity (the holy grail of profitability). My vote starting with full-sized sedans would be:

> Detroit-Hamtramck

> Doraville (minivans)

> Moraine (mid-sized BOF SUVs)

> Wilmington (find a way to build the Solstice and Sky at Bowling Green)

> Orion (G6 is quickly becoming a fleet queen - get rid of her and let the new LaX shine at PBG dealers)

> Lordstown (build the Deltas in Korea)

> your choice of 2 full-sized P/U and SUV plants (the demand is not coming back ever)

Detroit-Hamtramck : Chevrolet Volt , and Global Daewoo/Chevrolet MPV , and Epsilon II Chevrolet Malibu.

Orion: Epsilon II Chevrolet Malibu , Epsilon II Pontiac G6(rebadge of Epsilon II Chevrolet Malibu).

Lordstown:Gamma II(Next Aveo and Corsa. ) Gamma II Crossovers(both Chevrolet and Opel/Vauxhall/Saturn ).

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I apologize if I offended anyone on the East Coast with the stream of profanities that just left my mouth.

Well... whatever comes, it better be good, and it better be fast. I think they'll have no choice but to give a heavy MCE for the Lucerne since it's going to be around a bit longer (unless GM has something else up their sleeves for Buick--which I'm doubting).

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It should not have to be so difficult to be a GM enthusiast. The more news like I this I hear day by day, the more I defect to another automaker. I am still keeping my ear to the ground for GM, but more and more I find myself tuning in elsewhere.

New can of worms to be opened: what does this mean for "Omega," the rear-drive platform which was slated to replace Zeta and Sigma?

While Ford has promised us up to five new rear-drive vehicles and shows no sign of deviating from its future plans, GM can't seem to get it's $h! together.

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It should not have to be so difficult to be a GM enthusiast. The more news like I this I hear day by day, the more I defect to another automaker. I am still keeping my ear to the ground for GM, but more and more I find myself tuning in elsewhere.

New can of worms to be opened: what does this mean for "Omega," the rear-drive platform which was slated to replace Zeta and Sigma?

While Ford has promised us up to five new rear-drive vehicles and shows no sign of deviating from its future plans, GM can't seem to get it's $h! together.

Ford plans on doing their 3.5L TT V6... I don't understand why GM wouldn't consider something like this? I mean, what about a DI 3.6L Turbo? Would the economy be so horrendous?

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I'm so tired of Cadillac as the favored brand.

+1

Place this twin-turbo 3.6 under the hood of more mainstream GM products and then we will talk. I believe Ford will place their twin-turbo 3.5L in products other than what you will find at Lincoln in the future.

I will take a quick stock here for a moment, if you will.

Ford: Future rear-drive products are on the way without delay, decent spread of the twin-turbo 3.5L in cars beyond Lincoln.

GM: Future rear-drive products in serious question or canceled all together, twin-turbo 3.6L limited to Cadillac.

I am going to have to ask a Ford executive in the future how GM's lunch tastes, it seems.

Edited by YellowJacket894
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no excuse why they cant import some chinese park avenues.

i really almost don't care about gm anymore. as many things they get right, they seem to eff up more. they only look at it from a narrow minded fat white middle aged michigan man perspective......maybe it is time to give carl peter the reigns.

really, i don't care. chrysler and ford seem to have rwd plans and make no excuses. gm is pure bull$h! is all.

w bodies for everyone!

Edited by regfootball
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I can't say I'd go quite that far, Reg.

But we should have had a zeta-type lineup across the brands ten years ago.

Instead we got the damn Ws.

The ones built in Oshawa and the one in the White House.

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Guest aatbloke
I'm so tired of Cadillac as the favored brand.

Cadillac is the marque which GM is trying to push as its Mercedes, Lexus and BMW rivalling Q-car worldwide. It's going to get all the upmarket favouritism.

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Cadillac is the marque which GM is trying to push as its Mercedes, Lexus and BMW rivalling Q-car worldwide. It's going to get all the upmarket favouritism.

See, the thing about that is... I don't care.

Time to pay attention to, and finance the development of, the other brands.

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I'm heart broke too, but they know where the market is heading, and unfortunately, for fans of bigger, V8 Sedans, it's looking like you'll have to pony up to a $60,000 Caddy if you want something like that.

.....or a $38,000 Hyundai......

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Ahh, Vauxhall is a company, even if it's run as divisions of GM Manufacturing and GM Europe. I wouldn't rule out Buick still existing as a company either, but perhaps Hudson knows if it and other entities were actually de-registered, or are just dormant, pieces of paper in a file somewhere.

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Normally, this is where you would expect me to say I told you so, but I am not! I only wanted to wish Buick fans my condolences on this loss, you need more product, not less product.

Unless Buick gets a Delta or Alpha product ( both doubtful) or a stretched Epsilon II to replace the Lucerne, it looks like 4 years from now Buick will have 2 vehicles - the Enclave and the LaCrosse. Maybe GM will use Buick to compete with the FWD Lexus (ES and RX with the LaCrosse and Enclave) and use Cadillac to compete with the RWD Lexus, as well as Mercedes and BMW.

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Buick needs a largish RWD sedan flagship to justify its premium image both here and in China. Killing this car is a short sighted move that makes no sense.

Seems like the "me too" GM of the 1990s is still alive and well. We all know how well things turned out then. Someone needs to buy this company and save it from itself.

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It's all part of GM's master plan to reduce costs by reducing customers. If they don't actually have anyone who wants to buy their product then they don't have to go to expense of actually designing and building things. Their new business model involves producing concepts that tour the autoshow circuit in perpetuity <like the Camaro, Velite, and Beat> without ever actually being produced and charging people to come view the concepts. Sure, market share will take a beating, but look at all the money they'll save after all the plants get closed.

In other words:

Step 1: Cancel all the good vehicles

....

Step 3: Profit!

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Buick needs a largish RWD sedan flagship to justify its premium image both here and in China. Killing this car is a short sighted move that makes no sense.

GM already made a business case for a large RWD car that is not sold in the US, but sold in China as a Buick, in Australia as a couple of Holden models and in the Middle East as a Chevrolet. Maybe that's the way it will remain in the future.

Edited by ZL-1
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Looks like GM is being consistent with where they have been over the last decade...no RWD models except for a few from Cadillac and a few other niche models (1998--Corvette, Camaro, Firebird; 2008--Corvette, G8), and a sea of FWD mainstream cars, though the 2008 GM FWDers are certainly nicer than they were 10 years ago. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Edited by moltar
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I am sorely disappointed. :nono:

I am also. Very, very disappointed. I love the Invicta concept, but Buick needs a larger, RWD flagship. I was actually looking forward to possibly purchasing that car. If this news holds true, I'm done with GM; atleast where it counts, by purchasing their vehicles. Nothing against the other brands, but the Lucerne replacement was the car I was hoping to get.

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Guest aatbloke
Neither is Vauxhall, but who's counting! :smilewide:

Vauxhall Motors Limited is a private limited company registered in England & Wales with Companies House, and a wholly-owned subsidiary of General Motors. Its share capital consists of both ordinary and preference shares. The Vauxhall brand name and logo are owned by Vauxhall Motors Limited.

Buick is merely a registered brand name owned by General Motors. It is not a separate legal entity in its own right.

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There's nothing wrong with Cadillac being the favored brand,

but there's a difference between that and pretty much blatant

euthanasia of Buick by way of product starvation.

This is just getting disgusting, GM is going to under-utilize the

Zeta chassis more than any other platform in their 100+ year

history and once again the damn Japanese will eat their lunch!

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Vauxhall Motors Limited is a private limited company registered in England & Wales with Companies House, and a wholly-owned subsidiary of General Motors. Its share capital consists of both ordinary and preference shares. The Vauxhall brand name and logo are owned by Vauxhall Motors Limited.

Buick is merely a registered brand name owned by General Motors. It is not a separate legal entity in its own right.

Where can I buy Vauxhall stock? :rotflmao:

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Guest aatbloke
See, the thing about that is... I don't care.

Time to pay attention to, and finance the development of, the other brands.

I understand that but if GM is serious about pushing a credible luxury brand (and the signs are that they have been) that will be a respected marque globally in the same way as BMW is, then they're going to choose Cadillac - especially if they're cautiously picking and choosing investment strategies as a result of the current economic climate.

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I do believe that Buick ought to have a rear wheel drive flagship of somesort. Whether or not it's full size is another thing, but should be midsize to larger.

Neither is Vauxhall, but who's counting! :smilewide:

Vauxhall Motors Limited is a private limited company registered in England & Wales with Companies House, and a wholly-owned subsidiary of General Motors. Its share capital consists of both ordinary and preference shares. The Vauxhall brand name and logo are owned by Vauxhall Motors Limited.

Buick is merely a registered brand name owned by General Motors. It is not a separate legal entity in its own right.

Then so technically Vauxhall should be developing it's own products like Saturn USED to even though it took GM money to found Saturn Corporation and not pestering GM for resources?

GM's home page lists Vauxhall as merely a brand JUST LIKE Buick. GM purchased Vauxhall way back when around 1925.

Vauxhall is no more special than SAAB as far as being it's "own company"

Vauxhall doesn't even have any unique products of it's own. Not since around the 1970's. They're either German GM developed rebadged imported Opels or rebadged imported Australian GM Holdens. Now Saturns are rebadged imported German GM Opels and restyled/rebadged North American GM products.

yay for Kool Aid

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Guest aatbloke
I do believe that Buick ought to have a rear wheel drive flagship of somesort. Whether or not it's full size is another thing, but should be midsize to larger.

Then so technically Vauxhall should be developing it's own products like Saturn USED to even though it took GM money to found Saturn Corporation and not pestering GM for resources?

GM's home page lists Vauxhall as merely a brand JUST LIKE Buick. GM purchased Vauxhall way back when around 1925.

Vauxhall is no more special than SAAB as far as being it's "own company"

Vauxhall doesn't even have any unique products of it's own. Not since around the 1970's. They're either German GM developed rebadged imported Opels or rebadged imported Australian GM Holdens. Now Saturns are rebadged imported German GM Opels and restyled/rebadged North American GM products.

yay for Kool Aid

GM's sales homepage isn't going to detail technical company information to the general public; there's no legal requirement to because Vauxhall is a private subsidiary company. Likewise, no product line - whether unique or not - has any bearing on a company's legal status. If you're not going to take my word for it - and Vauxhall have been a past audit client I've worked on - then simply look at the Companies House website, which clearly lists Vauxhall Motors Limited as well as its own subsidiaries, Vauxhall Motors Finance Limited and GMM Luton Limited.

Vauxhall Motors Ltd - I'll reiterate - is a private limited company, registered in England & Wales, with its own share capital. It has its own board of directors, the MD of which (equivalent to a US CEO) is Bill Parfitt. It has been a wholly-owned private subsidiary company of GM since 1926, just as Adam Opel GmbH has since 1929. Both were outright purchases; neither were dissolved or merged with other corporations.

I am not saying Vauxhall is "special." What I am saying that like Saab and Opel, it is a wholly-owned private subsidiary company. That means it has to comply with Companies Acts, it has legal obligations to its employees, it requires an annual audit, and it is required to disclose its accounting affairs on an annual basis for corporation tax purposes. It is not a public company (unlike its parent) so it does not have to publicly disclose its financial statements.

Buick however was dissolved as a company during a series of mergers into what today has become General Motors. These days the Buick name and logo exist only as a copywritten marque. The dissolution of the former Chrysler Corp and Daimler-Benz in the 1990's was a very similar situation, with the old companies' shares dissolved and exchanged for new shares in a single newly formed company, although that company itself has since been dissolved.

As far as Vauxhall's products are concerned, it offers a rebadged imported Holden and the rest of the car product line is developed by GM Europe, primarily at Opel. Both Vauxhall and Opel build cars with Vauxhall, Opel, Chevrolet and Holden monikers for various markets across the UK and continental Europe. In addition, Vauxhall's subsidiary GMM Luton (formerly Bedford) handles the light commercial line, building two van models for Vauxhall and Opel as part of a joint venture with Renault.

MyerShift, it's important you have a thorough understanding and knowledge of company formations and company law before getting into these kinds of discussions. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the product itself. Vauxhall could make Toyota-developed widgets and the situation would be no different.

Edited by aatbloke
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Wouldn't Buick be down to 2 vehicles in 2 years since the Lucerne and DTS go out of production in 2010?

Unless we have a major worldwide recession gasoline prices will continue to climb. We're looking at prices approaching $5/gallon in that same 2 years. Can anyone envision non-luxury brands like Pontiac and Buick thriving with gas prices that high? A 2-vehicle lineup may be the least of Buick's troubles.

Unless Buick gets a Delta or Alpha product ( both doubtful) or a stretched Epsilon II to replace the Lucerne, it looks like 4 years from now Buick will have 2 vehicles - the Enclave and the LaCrosse. Maybe GM will use Buick to compete with the FWD Lexus (ES and RX with the LaCrosse and Enclave) and use Cadillac to compete with the RWD Lexus, as well as Mercedes and BMW.
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I only wanted to wish Buick fans my condolences on this loss, you need more product, not less product.

So tell us... oh, great swami... is there more product coming for Buick, even if it isn't a large RWD sedan (since the market has, in general, moved away from such vehicles)? Buicks can come in all sizes, body styles, and drivetrains - if GM is interested. <_< Or are they too busy creating the GM Europe "Driving Conversations" Blog?

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This whole "Buick must have a rear-wheel drive flagship" is a total crock. Those of you spouting this garbage are either very young or have a bad/selective memory. Buick for years had as its flagship a car called the Riviera. Remember that car? Specifically the FWD version that came out in 1979 and was one of the best-selling Rivs of all time? Remember, this was before Lexus -- a time when Buick was considered THE near-luxury car preferred by doctors, business owners, and country clubbers.

Even after Lexus came on the scene the FWD H-Body LeSabre became a legend in itself. It sold so well it was almost its own franchise. Aside from the me-too styling of its C-Body counterparts the 1985 FWD Electra was well-received and unique in many ways. The 1991 Park Avenue was truly a sales winner and a step up in styling for Buick as well.

For Buick customers, FWD was embraced and judged superior long ago.

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Normally, this is where you would expect me to say I told you so, but I am not! I only wanted to wish Buick fans my condolences on this loss, you need more product, not less product.

A shrill scream through the piercing silence -- guess that means PCS is back! :smilewide:

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This whole "Buick must have a rear-wheel drive flagship" is a total crock. Those of you spouting this garbage are either very young or have a bad/selective memory. Buick for years had as its flagship a car called the Riviera. Remember that car? Specifically the FWD version that came out in 1979 and was one of the best-selling Rivs of all time? Remember, this was before Lexus -- a time when Buick was considered THE near-luxury car preferred by doctors, business owners, and country clubbers.

Even after Lexus came on the scene the FWD H-Body LeSabre became a legend in itself. It sold so well it was almost its own franchise. Aside from the me-too styling of its C-Body counterparts the 1985 FWD Electra was well-received and unique in many ways. The 1991 Park Avenue was truly a sales winner and a step up in styling for Buick as well.

For Buick customers, FWD was embraced and judged superior long ago.

Who has more respect as a Tier-1 luxury brand? Lexus, with it's FWD/RWD product mix, or Acura, with an all-FWD lineup? Also, pre-2003, Cadillac was considered a joke by most shopping for a status/luxury car. Yeah, I know the Catera was RWD, but it had problems that the drivetrain layout couldn't hide.

Sorry, but these days if you want to be taken seriously in terms of performance, status, or luxury, you need RWD. Keeping Buick all FWD stifles its march toward acceptance as a premium nameplate.

BTW, I turn 30 in July, so there goes your stereotype.

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the paradigm is changed enough these days and the customer expectation high enough that regardless of front or rear bias platform, I would suggest that one or two or even the whole line of buicks should have available AWD.

IMO no chinese park avenue is a forgivable sin if a Lucerne replacement has AWD optional and one motor of 300-320hp.

Especially if a lowly ecoboost taurus packing 350hp and awd hits market, why can't buick step up with something besides a 10 year old northstar, pushrod v6's and front drive only?

Edited by regfootball
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This is a smart move. And it'll give the new LaCrosse, which will be better than the current vehicle and roomy-enough, some breathing space in Buick showrooms too.

The "full-size" sedan market is a loser from a business standpoint too. Not just because of CAFE either. It's been shrinking for years, and going to continue to contract as buyers look to smaller cars.

GM needs to plot all its vehicles on a graph. 2 axes: sales potential on one and profit margin on the other. Full-sized sedans end up in the worst quadrant: low profit because of high incentives and low sales potential because of shrinking market. GM ran its factories in the 1st quarter of 2008 at 76% of capacity. Factor in another 10% too high of reliance on fleet sales and you've got about 7 or 8 assembly plants they need to close to get close to 100% plant capacity (the holy grail of profitability). SUV plants (the demand is not coming back ever)

I totally Agree, although most of us lust for the yesteryears of huge rwd sedans, those days are gone. I think the EPII cars from GM will be large enough to satisify most peoples needs. Sadly they will not satisify most C&G forumers wants!

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You know, I don't think I'm mad because GM isn't giving Buick a RWD sedan. It is a bit disappointing. But I find that I'm more irked at the fact that GM spent $1 billion to develop the Zeta platform (which is consistently being hailed for its stellar driving dynamics--but that's beside my point) and then turn around and hardly use it. It's not a sound decision at all from a financial standpoint, especially considering money is becoming ever-tighter within the company.

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You know, I don't think I'm mad because GM isn't giving Buick a RWD sedan. It is a bit disappointing. But I find that I'm more irked at the fact that GM spent $1 billion to develop the Zeta platform (which is consistently being hailed for its stellar driving dynamics--but that's beside my point) and then turn around and hardly use it. It's not a sound decision at all from a financial standpoint, especially considering money is becoming ever-tighter within the company.

Absolutely!

What an amazing waste!

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Your assumption that Buick is or could ever be a "Tier 1" luxury brand is incorrect. Forget the cars for a minute. GM doesn't have the vision nor the money to totally revamp the Buick dealer experience to come even close to matching the Lexus customer experience, an always-moving target by the way. In fact, by forcing single brand Buick dealers to pair with worktruck GMC and pedestrian Pontiac, GM is actually shooting itself in the foot in this regard. RWD doesn't fix this fundamental problem.

BTW, because of the above, GM should immediately stop comparing Buick to Lexus. Buick should be presented for what it is: a nicely styled, high quality, comfortable brand with no pretention.

Who has more respect as a Tier-1 luxury brand? Lexus, with it's FWD/RWD product mix, or Acura, with an all-FWD lineup? Also, pre-2003, Cadillac was considered a joke by most shopping for a status/luxury car. Yeah, I know the Catera was RWD, but it had problems that the drivetrain layout couldn't hide.

Sorry, but these days if you want to be taken seriously in terms of performance, status, or luxury, you need RWD. Keeping Buick all FWD stifles its march toward acceptance as a premium nameplate.

BTW, I turn 30 in July, so there goes your stereotype.

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You know, I don't think I'm mad because GM isn't giving Buick a RWD sedan. It is a bit disappointing. But I find that I'm more irked at the fact that GM spent $1 billion to develop the Zeta platform (which is consistently being hailed for its stellar driving dynamics--but that's beside my point) and then turn around and hardly use it. It's not a sound decision at all from a financial standpoint, especially considering money is becoming ever-tighter within the company.

Agreed. Very well said.

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Another f*ckin' dumb move...

I'll be on BlueOvalNews taking bets on how long it takes GM to f*ck up to the point of bankruptcy.

This is sheer ignorance... Ford can do RWD with CAFE, so can Chrysler and so can Hyundai. Yet GM is too ignorant to figure it out?

So, I guess we'll get a Lacrosse that can double as a Saturn, an outdated Lucerne with lipstick and a Buick coupe from Alpha (Because that makes so much damn sense) while Pontiac will survive with a G6 that can double as a Malibu, which will already double as a Saturn.

EFF you GM and EFF you americaNT. I'm done with this.

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM
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Cadillac is the marque which GM is trying to push as its Mercedes, Lexus and BMW rivalling Q-car worldwide. It's going to get all the upmarket favouritism.

And it's going to do this with no V8 program and platforms shared with cars that are half the price...

Another EXCELLENT move by GM...

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When things are as quiet as they have been around here recently, you notice when someone is missing for a period of time. :P

indeed, its been a while since "kill buick, pontiac, hummer, sell saab, get 20 way pwr seats in a caddy" has been mentioned.

on topic, does this mean that if one wants multiple experiences in a zeta you have to go down under?

what does this mean for the invicta concept?

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See, the thing about that is... I don't care.

Time to pay attention to, and finance the development of, the other brands.

Here's the problem: CADILLAC should've been "right" 7 years ago when GM "revived" the brand.

Now would be the time to revive OTHER brands if GM had a clue about reviving a brand in the first place.

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Normally, this is where you would expect me to say I told you so, but I am not! I only wanted to wish Buick fans my condolences on this loss, you need more product, not less product.

[edit: I deleted the first part of this post after being asked to]

You were better off gone than antagonizing people on this board.

Mods: ban me if you want. It won't change the opinion of me or most everyone else around here. PCS disappears for a month and then suddenly makes a sincere remark about the death of a program that he hates that involves a sales channel he wants to eliminate.

Yeah right...

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM
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I understand that but if GM is serious about pushing a credible luxury brand (and the signs are that they have been) that will be a respected marque globally in the same way as BMW is, then they're going to choose Cadillac - especially if they're cautiously picking and choosing investment strategies as a result of the current economic climate.

Except for Buick is more important in what is soon to be the number one market on the planet.

(I'm just sayin')

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what does this mean for the invicta concept?

The Buick Invicta concept was based on the Epsilon II platform and is a preview of the replacement for the LaCrosse. Zeta bears no effect on this car entering production.

Now, if you will excuse me, I am going to stand back on the sidelines. I get the feeling it might get ugly in here.

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This whole "Buick must have a rear-wheel drive flagship" is a total crock. Those of you spouting this garbage are either very young or have a bad/selective memory. Buick for years had as its flagship a car called the Riviera. Remember that car? Specifically the FWD version that came out in 1979 and was one of the best-selling Rivs of all time? Remember, this was before Lexus -- a time when Buick was considered THE near-luxury car preferred by doctors, business owners, and country clubbers.

Even after Lexus came on the scene the FWD H-Body LeSabre became a legend in itself. It sold so well it was almost its own franchise. Aside from the me-too styling of its C-Body counterparts the 1985 FWD Electra was well-received and unique in many ways. The 1991 Park Avenue was truly a sales winner and a step up in styling for Buick as well.

For Buick customers, FWD was embraced and judged superior long ago.

The same customers that are dying off?

You constantly tell us to come into reality, maybe you should too if you believe the above.

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Unless we have a major worldwide recession gasoline prices will continue to climb. We're looking at prices approaching $5/gallon in that same 2 years. Can anyone envision non-luxury brands like Pontiac and Buick thriving with gas prices that high? A 2-vehicle lineup may be the least of Buick's troubles.

We will...

Gas prices are severely affecting the economy now, what makes you think higher prices wont wreck it?

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BTW, because of the above, GM should immediately stop comparing Buick to Lexus. Buick should be presented for what it is: a nicely styled, high quality, comfortable brand with no pretention.

But then, what american would buy it?

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I've adjusting to high gas prices by driving less. Not by turning in the car of my choice and driving a crapmobile.

When the drunk driving laws drove up the price of public drinking, there was an increase in the sale of microbrews and other premium hootch. People were forced to drink less, so they chose to drink better. Why wouldn't the same phenomena hold true for cars? Sure, I'll have my Ford Focus, but my "second car" is still gonna be some funmobile, whether a Jeep or a sophisticated rear-driver. Why can't GM make a marketing case for selling that kind of fun for popular prices?

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Welcome to reality gear heads, old timers and weepy eyed nostolgia fans. Who really thought cheap gas was forever, and CAFE would disappear?

Can scream and hollar all day, write Congress, send email petitions, stop buying gas on Sundays, but we aren't going to see $1-2 a gallon ever again. And wake up, world is not going to go back in time. You think Russia and China is going to stop allowing people to buy new cars, so we can get all the oil we want? And, do you really think GM can 'only be saved by all big RWD cars'?

The only way any large #'s of RWD big sedans will be produced in the future is if they are hybrids, diesels, or all electric cars. Even sane car fans are not eager for a 12 mpg car to drive every day. "Future of GM" is not 1965, and all the unsold big trucks that "Real Americans want" shows that most people are wising up, and moving on.

Edited by Chicagoland
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Ok why are so many shocked and upset? Most here are smart enough to have know this was going to happen.

Second let GM lay out what they plan to to as they did not kill this car off with out some kind of a plan.

GM did not waste a Billion as they have already sold this plaform in many different forms world wide we just got only two of them.

The fact is GM got burned in the past while still trying to pass of large heavy American cars in times of high gas prices or shortages and they will not do it again. They can't affords to do itr again as the last time it opened the door to MFG from Japan andf this time it will ber China/India.

Zeta may have worked in the short term but they need to start now and with the money they have to work on a long term solution. GM is having trouble pushing their most populatr vehicles today [trucks/SUV's] due to gas prices. Do you really think a RWD Buick would do very well long term? Just as the G8 and the new trucks those who want it will buy and sales will fade away over the following years.

Zeta is just too heavy and I am sure GM is either looking at a Revised Zeta that is lighter, an expanded Alpha or some new platform we have not heard named yet. In the end we will get a lighter car that will be better to take on a the future market. Either way to continue the car as it is for only 3-4 years would be a waste of money and is not a long term fix.

Lets hear at least what they have to offer before anyone jumps out any windows. You might just be suprised what you might get. Now if they follow this up with a very poor plan they open the window.

The bottom line is don't over react and act like a GM Insider expecting a Firebird anyday..

Edited by hyperv6
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Guest aatbloke
Except for Buick is more important in what is soon to be the number one market on the planet.

(I'm just sayin')

GM realises that if it wants a successful executive product in the same vein as BMW or Mercedes, it has to think about global markets first and foremost and the marque concerned is Cadillac. This takes preference over a single market. Given the protracted state of the weak USD, capitalising upon export markets is a no-brainer.

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I'm old enough to remember the original Riviera (which Cadillac decided it didn't want) and the overwhelmingly popular downsized FWD '79 version. Both were the right cars for the right time. This was at a time when GM was still at the top of its game and took no prisoners. Ford and Chrysler scoffed at GM in '77 when they downsized the full-sized Chevrolet lineup, then tripped over themselves to release their own. Chrysler nearly went under because it was too slow to react.

There is no reason Buick cannot tackle Lexus without RWD. Many around here wont' accept that, but that does not mean it cannot happen. Someone else pointed out that the '85 'downsized' Buicks and Olds were a resounding success, and they continued to be even as Acura ramped up. You can see the damage that Roger Smith imposed upon GM in the late '80s as the Olds 88 and LeSabre became more and more alike - that left the door wide open for Acura and Lexus to walk right in. The opportunity lost was the Century and Cutlass - both cars which were the darling of the 30- somethings in the '70s, became boring and obese in the '90s. The 88 could have been the 'old geezer's car,' but the Regal should have stayed on the 30-something's radar, which it did not. I should point out that in '87 (at the ripe old age of 26) I seriously considered the Regal 2 door as my 'gotta have' car, but it was out of my budget. I, along with many others, scoffed at the Acura Legend. I guess no one is laughing now.

Buick can have an American revival without RWD. I don't think it will be the end of the world at $5 a gallon gas. I have to say that the Enclave is getting a lot of 30 something couples stirred up, so they are moving in the right direction.

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Here's the problem: CADILLAC should've been "right" 7 years ago when GM "revived" the brand.

Now would be the time to revive OTHER brands if GM had a clue about reviving a brand in the first place.

You know, as much as I like Cadillac, you are RIGHT....!

We have exactly two cars that are worth a damn.....(from a retail-sales standpoint)......CTS and Escalade short-wheelbase.

STS? Dud. DTS? A tiny bit less of a dud than STS. ESV and EXT? Duds, especially compared to their short-wheelbase cousin. SRX? Dud.

All this talk about Cadillac being a "revived" brand is bunk. It's not in ANY way a "revived" brand. It's a brand that just happens to have an award-winning entry/midsize luxury sport sedan, and a high-end SUV that appeals to the bling crowd.

We never should have been saddled with the STS (or we should have had a "true" STS that was as competitive in it's segment as CTS is in it's own), and DTS should have gone away a long time ago.

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Buick can have an American revival without RWD. I don't think it will be the end of the world at $5 a gallon gas. I have to say that the Enclave is getting a lot of 30 something couples stirred up, so they are moving in the right direction.

I don't know if Buick can have an American revival.....at all....at least not like all of us would like to see. But even if it did, the market is way too over-saturated with excellent and exciting choices these days.

It would take something completely off everyone's radar right now to generate the kind of excitement for Buick that would make a difference.

If it were Buick a few years ago, that had brought out a distinctive, full-size, RWD, Corvette-engineed, "Park Avenue".....instead of Chrysler......we very well might be looking at a different Buick today.

But now.....if Buick were to go with the expressive, American-styled, luxurious, RWD, full-size sedan.....well......we already have a 300C out there. Kind of a "been-there, done-that" type of situation.

'Course....considering Ford has been so slow at coming to the game, maybe it wouldn't be as bad to have a "Park Aveune" duking it out with a 300C in the market.

I just don't know....to tell you the truth.....

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