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  • William Maley
    William Maley

    Detroit 2019: 2019 Subaru WRX STi S209

      Unlike the last special edition, this one actually has more power


    Subaru has been keeping their S-series of WRX STI vehicles in Japan since the first model (the S201) was launched in 2000. But today at the Detroit Auto Show, Subaru has decided to treat us by bringing over the S209 to the U.S.

    Under the hood, STI has overhauled the EJ25 2.5L turbocharged boxer-four engine with an HKS turbocharger, revised intake system, forged pistons and con rods, and less-restrictive exhaust. Output has increased 310 to 341 horsepower. Torque remains at 290 pound-feet. In a nod to the 2004 to 2007 STI, Subaru has fitted an intercooler water spray system controlled via steering wheel paddles to cool down the intercooler. A six-speed manual routes power to all four wheels.

    For the chassis, Subaru has widen the track by 0.6-inches, upgraded the Bilstein dampers and bushings; added 0.8-inch rear anti-roll bar, fitted a handful of stiffening braces and bars, and a set of 265/35 Dunlop GT600A summer tires wearing 19-inch BBS wheels. Subaru claims this gives the S209 more than 1.00 g of lateral grip.

    The exterior is much more aggressive with wider fenders to allow for additional cooling, rear-fender vents to reduce drag, under spoilers all around the vehicle, and a large rear wing.

    No mention on price, but we're expecting it to be near or above the $48,995 for the last special edition WRX STI to grace our shores - the Type RA. There will only 200 models built for the U.S., either wearing WR Blue Pearl with gray wheels or Crystal White Pearl with gold wheels.

    Gallery: 2019 Subaru WRX STi S209

    Source: Subaru


    Subaru Tecnica International Unleashes Most Powerful Model Ever With Limited-Edition STI S209

    • Debuts at 2019 North American International Auto Show
    • First-ever STI-crafted S-line performance vehicle sold in the United States
    • Limited production run of around 200 units
    • Available exclusively in the U.S.
    • 341-horsepower (est.) 2.5-liter SUBARU BOXER engine
    • Aggressive new look with wide fenders, front canards and rear wing
    • Performance-focused chassis with flexible strut tower bar and draw stiffeners
    • Exclusive 19 x 9-inch forged BBS® wheels with bespoke Dunlop® SP Sport Maxx® GT600A tires
    • Brembo® brakes with new high-friction pads
    • Available in two exterior colors: World Rally Blue Pearl and Crystal White Pearl

    January 14, 2019 , Camden, N.J. - Subaru Tecnica International (STI), a wholly owned subsidiary of Subaru Corporation, today introduced the limited-edition STI S209, the first-ever S-line STI product produced exclusively for the U.S. market. As an S-line product, the STI S209 encompasses upgrades in power, handling, aerodynamics and driver engagement, and undergoes final assembly in Kiryu, Japan, where it receives engine modifications and bodywork alterations that in total require it to be homologated for the U.S. by STI; thus, the S209 is considered the first “STI-built” Subaru sold in the U.S. The S209 carries on a high-performance tradition that dates to STI-built models that were exclusive to the Japanese domestic market – the 2000 S201 through the 2018 S208.

    Designed with a focus on high-performance driving, the S209 draws inspiration and tech transfer from STI’s most formidable track machine: the WRX STI Nürburgring Challenge racecar, which won the SP3T class at the 2018 24 Hours of Nürburgring, marking the fifth time STI dominated the SP3T class at the grueling endurance race. The S209, like the Nürburgring Challenge racecar, wears an expanded wide-body exterior treatment, which extends the vehicle’s overall width to 72.4 inches, or 1.7 inches wider than a standard WRX STI. The bulging fenders accommodate wider front/rear tracks (+ 0.6 in front/rear) and 265/35 Dunlop® SP Sport Maxx® GT600A summer-only tires wrapped around lightweight 19 x 9-inch forged BBS alloy wheels. The all-new tires, developed exclusively for the S209 by Dunlop, are a significant contributor to the car’s tenacious maximum lateral grip of over 1.0 g. Vents on the front fenders provide additional engine cooling, while vents on the rear fenders rectify air turbulence to reduce drag. Brembo brakes, with cross-drilled steel rotors and 6-piston monoblock front calipers and 2-piston monoblock rear calipers, provide stout stopping force, thanks in part to upgraded high-friction pads that deliver improved fade-resistance.

    Underneath the S209’s broader body are specially developed Bilstein® dampers, stiffened coil springs, a 20mm rear stabilizer bar and pillow-type bushings for the front/rear lateral links. The S209 incorporates reinforcements to the front crossmember and rear subframes and, a la the Nürburgring racecar, a flexible front-strut tower bar and flexible front/rear draw stiffeners. The flexible tower bar, unlike a conventional rigid bar, is split and joined with a pillow ball joint in the center to be longitudinally mobile while helping laterally stiffen the body of the car. The result is optimum tire grip during lateral moments combined with compliant ride during longitudinal moments. Meanwhile, the draw stiffeners apply tension between the body and cross member to optimize chassis flex, improving stability when cornering and delivering better ride, handling and steering response. Other Nürburgring racecar tech that trickles down to the S209: front, rear and side under spoilers; front bumper canards; and carbon-fiber roof panel and rear wing.

    A thoroughly reworked version of the legendary EJ25 2.5-liter turbocharged BOXER engine propels the S209. Featuring an STI turbocharger manufactured by HKS®, the EJ25 serves up an estimated 341 horsepower, thanks in part to a larger turbine and compressor (up 6 and 8 percent, respectively, compared to WRX STI) as well as maximum boost pressure that has been increased to 18.0 psi (16.2 psi for WRX STI). Proudly displaying an S209 serial number plate, the enhanced BOXER engine utilizes forged pistons and connecting rods that are both lighter and stronger. Midrange torque, too, gets a notable bump, up 10 percent at 3,600 rpm, delivering higher corner exit speeds when driving on track.

    For ultimate driver engagement, the S209 comes exclusively with a close-ratio 6-speed manual transmission that routes power to a full-time Subaru Symmetrical All-Wheel Drive system with front/rear limited-slip differentials, a Driver Controlled Center Differential (DCCD), Active Torque Vectoring and Multi-Mode Vehicle Dynamics Control. A recalibrated SI-Drive system offers three modes: Intelligent (I) for improved fuel economy and smoother power control; Sport (S) for optimized power balance between response and control; and Sport Sharp (S#) for achieving the best acceleration times. STI engineers recommend Sport over Sport Sharp for circuit driving, as the less aggressive throttle map allows for greater driver control.

    To feed more air to the EJ25, the S209 uses a high-flow intake system featuring a new intake duct, induction box with conical air filter, silicone turbo inlet duct and, a nod from the 2004-07 WRX STI, an intercooler water spray system that lowers intercooler temperature via manually operated steering-wheel paddles. More air demands more fuel, so the S209 receives a new high-flow fuel pump, larger fuel injectors and an STI-tuned engine control module. High-performance mufflers deliver 17-percent less airflow resistance while larger hand-polished stainless-steel exhaust tips – 101mm in diameter – deliver aggressive appearance and acoustics.

    The S209 receives multiple tweaks to elevate it from other STI sedans. An STI badge replaces the traditional Subaru star cluster on the center of the D-shape steering wheel, which is wrapped in Ultrasuede® with silver stitching, a treatment that carries over to the lid of the center console storage box. An S209 serial number badge resides on the center console, and S209 badges adorn the passenger-side dash and the headrests of the Recaro® front bucket seats, which feature new silver-hued inserts. Outside, special S209 badges are affixed to the front grille and fenders as well as the rear decklid.

    Only around 200 units of the STI S209 will be built, earmarked exclusively for the U.S. Available exterior color/BBS wheel combinations will be WR Blue Pearl/gray wheels and Crystal White Pearl/gold wheels. Pricing will be announced closer to the on-sale date in late 2019.

    Edited by William Maley



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    It reminds me of the Mercedes-Benz CLA but with a huge hood scoop and Ricer Wing.

    Faithfull I am sure are excited and already thinking of how they can buy it.

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    The WRX STi is growing stale. What qualified as exhilarating turbocharged AWD compact when the Camrys, Passats and Malibus had less than 200hp, is now... yawn... with a Silverado pickup having a 310hp / 348 lb-ft turbo four and most V6 family sedans and SUVs topping 300 horses. The WRX is stale bread... two decades old 1990s stale bread... particularly with much better appointed offerings like the Golf R ponying up 300 horses and AWD.

    Edited by dwightlooi

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    15 hours ago, dwightlooi said:

    The WRX STi is growing stale. What qualified as exhilarating turbocharged AWD compact when the Camrys, Passats and Malibus had less than 200hp, is now... yawn... with a Silverado pickup having a 310hp / 348 lb-ft turbo four and most V6 family sedans and SUVs topping 300 horses. The WRX is stale bread... two decades old 1990s stale bread... particularly with much better appointed offerings like the Golf R ponying up 300 horses and AWD.

    Golf R also has much nicer interior.

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    On 1/19/2019 at 8:41 AM, A Horse With No Name said:

    Golf R also has much nicer interior.

    Which is excusable if the STi is a cheaper product with a better price-performance quotient. But, BOTH cars are basically priced at $40K.

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    32 minutes ago, dwightlooi said:

    Which is excusable if the STi is a cheaper product with a better price-performance quotient. But, BOTH cars are basically priced at $40K.

    The one that has grown on me the most is actually the Focus RS, which sadly is no longer produced.

    The next gen Focus like Europe got in an RS trim would be killer IMHO.

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    On 1/18/2019 at 5:05 PM, dwightlooi said:

    The WRX STi is growing stale. What qualified as exhilarating turbocharged AWD compact when the Camrys, Passats and Malibus had less than 200hp, is now... yawn... with a Silverado pickup having a 310hp / 348 lb-ft turbo four and most V6 family sedans and SUVs topping 300 horses. The WRX is stale bread... two decades old 1990s stale bread... particularly with much better appointed offerings like the Golf R ponying up 300 horses and AWD.

    So true and for an auto that requires Premium fuel and only has the HP / Torque is sad in todays Turbo 300 crowd on regular fuel.

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    And hate to say this, but at $40K I can buy a gently used CTS-V also....yes...different caliber of car but...for the money...

    Also...once you goa bove 30K you are starting to talk Mustang  GT and Camaro SS/V8 Challenger money. LOTS of options in the thirty plus range.

    Which is why i doubt we will ever see a Turbocharged BRZ....and why Nissan has dropped the price on the badly badly dated 370Z.

    Ford and GM are the best buy for performance over 30K....unless you want to spend a LOT of coin and wind up with something AMG-ish from Benz.

    Just now, dfelt said:

    So true and for an auto that requires Premium fuel and only has the HP / Torque is sad in todays Turbo 300 crowd on regular fuel.

    They are fun to hoon around an autocross or Rallycross course at an SCCA event.

    The thing is....Subaru is able to play this one smart because they only build a limited number of these cars which keeps the resale high. Domestics are learning not to be everything to everybody...

    Which is why I am not so sad about so many cars being cancelled. I like the idea of Ford going one hundred percent in on the new Bronco like they did the aviator...and of Cadillac being 100 percent in on the next gen of  V cars.

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    1 minute ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    And hate to say this, but at $40K I can buy a gently used CTS-V also....yes...different caliber of car but...for the money...

    Also...once you goa bove 30K you are starting to talk Mustang  GT and Camaro SS/V8 Challenger money. LOTS of options in the thirty plus range.

    Which is why i doubt we will ever see a Turbocharged BRZ....and why Nissan has dropped the price on the badly badly dated 370Z.

    Ford and GM are the best buy for performance over 30K....unless you want to spend a LOT of coin and wind up with something AMG-ish from Benz.

    +1000 I would take a CPO V over the STI any day of the week for that amount of money.

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    Ford and GM are learning to get out of the game where they have six months of inventory of a particular car line sitting and needs to be discounted and sold a minimal profit or a loss.

    1 minute ago, dfelt said:

    +1000 I would take a CPO V over the STI any day of the week for that amount of money.

    For a street car it is a thousand times better.

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    36 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    The one that has grown on me the most is actually the Focus RS, which sadly is no longer produced.

    The next gen Focus like Europe got in an RS trim would be killer IMHO.

    The Focus ST is a hooligan's car. It is an overpowered front drive, nose heavy, hatch. Which means it naturally wants to understeer, torque steer or otherwise tug and push. Ford's answer is put a sh!t load of roll stiffness in the back for the explicit purpose of breaking it lose in a turn. You end up with a car that breaks both ends loose and slide around like a hooligan's ride. When it finally grew up into the RS, Ford decided it was done with cars in general.

    Edited by dwightlooi
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    3 minutes ago, dwightlooi said:

    The Focus RS is a hooligan's car. It is an overpowered front drive, nose heavy, hatch. Which means it naturally wants to understeer, torque steer or otherwise tug and push. Ford's answer is put a sh!t load of roll stiffness in the back for the explicit purpose of breaking it lose in a turn. You end up with a car that breaks both ends loose and slide around like a hooligan's ride.

    Focus RS is AWD

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    7 minutes ago, dwightlooi said:

    The Focus ST is a hooligan's car. It is an overpowered front drive, nose heavy, hatch. Which means it naturally wants to understeer, torque steer or otherwise tug and push. Ford's answer is put a sh!t load of roll stiffness in the back for the explicit purpose of breaking it lose in a turn. You end up with a car that breaks both ends loose and slide around like a hooligan's ride. When it finally grew up into the RS, Ford decided it was done with cars in general.

    From a purely subjective viewpoint I really like the feel of a GTI on an autocross course over the feel of a the Focus ST.

    That being said...I am very sorry that sport compacts seem to be going away...and from a personal stand point...I am really thinking about a Cherokee as my next vehicle. AWD goodness for Ohio Snow, and I love the idea of finding one CPO with the Trailhawk package.

    And the Focus ST...in the end I will miss it. One of my sons friends had a black Focus ST that he totaled while being stupid...I miss that car.

    23 minutes ago, ykX said:

    Here we go again comparing new vs used and apples vs oranges ...

    Yes...but as enthusiasts we have choices. I love living in a country that gives me so many choices...

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    1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

     

    Yes...but as enthusiasts we have choices. I love living in a country that gives me so many choices...

    At least you can compare what you can get for this STi money new.  When you bring used into equation all bets are off.

    Besides, this is limited edition track oriented STi.  It is a last one before the new one comes, supposedly in a hybrid form.

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    Just now, ykX said:

    At least you can compare what you can get for this STi money new.  When you bring used into equation all bets are off.

    Besides, this is limited edition track oriented STi.  It is a last one before the new one comes, supposedly in a hybrid form.

    I am not sure how a hybrid sTI will go over with traditional STI buyers.

    What I can get for STI money now....a Mustang GT and a Civic Type R would be more desirable. And I still love the STI.

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    @A Horse With No Name Not knowing which Zip you live of the 45 listed for Columbus Ohio this is what I find for CPO Cherokees in your woods.

    43 Available CPO Trailhawk Cherokees in your area.

    https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/Certified+Cars/Jeep/Cherokee/Columbus+OH-43085?zip=43085&marketExtension=true&startYear=1981&endYear=2019&makeCodeList=JEEP&searchRadius=200&modelCodeList=CHER&listingTypes=CERTIFIED&trimCodeList=CHER|Trailhawk&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&numRecords=100&firstRecord=0

    Nice 2014 with 43K miles for $20K

    https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=500180225&zip=43085&referrer=%2Fcars-for-sale%2Fsearchresults.xhtml%3Fzip%3D43085%26startYear%3D1981%26numRecords%3D100%26incremental%3Dall%26endYear%3D2019%26modelCodeList%3DCHER%26makeCodeList%3DJEEP%26listingTypes%3DCERTIFIED%26sortBy%3DderivedpriceASC%26firstRecord%3D0%26marketExtension%3Don%26searchRadius%3D200%26trimCodeList%3DCHER%7CTrailhawk&listingTypes=CERTIFIED&startYear=1981&numRecords=100&firstRecord=0&endYear=2019&modelCodeList=CHER&makeCodeList=JEEP&searchRadius=200&makeCode1=JEEP&modelCode1=CHER&clickType=listing

    Certified 2014 Jeep Cherokee 4WD Trailhawk Latrobe, PA 15650 - 500180225 - 1

    Nice 2016 with 40K miles for $25K.

    https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=504416777&zip=43085&referrer=%2Fcars-for-sale%2Fsearchresults.xhtml%3Fzip%3D43085%26startYear%3D1981%26numRecords%3D100%26incremental%3Dall%26endYear%3D2019%26modelCodeList%3DCHER%26makeCodeList%3DJEEP%26listingTypes%3DCERTIFIED%26sortBy%3DderivedpriceASC%26firstRecord%3D0%26marketExtension%3Don%26searchRadius%3D200%26trimCodeList%3DCHER%7CTrailhawk&listingTypes=CERTIFIED&startYear=1981&numRecords=100&firstRecord=0&endYear=2019&modelCodeList=CHER&makeCodeList=JEEP&searchRadius=200&clickType=spotlight

    Certified 2016 Jeep Cherokee 4WD Trailhawk DAYTON, OH 45459 - 504416777 - 1

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    Three things gays...

    1. You can bring used cars into the discussion, but a USED STi is a $25K buy and should not be compared to a $40K used CTS-V or whatever. But for that money, a used Lancer Evo -- with its active differentials and less nose heavy attitude -- is a better buy.
    2. The 9-speed Auto in the Cherokee is garbage.
    3. I really don't like the tall hip point and upright seating position of SUVs. This is particularly true of the unibody Cute Utilities which has no credible off-road value. If I need 3 rows, I'll rather pull a Jeff Bezos and drive a Minivan.
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    2 hours ago, dwightlooi said:

    Three things gays...

    1. You can bring used cars into the discussion, but a USED STi is a $25K buy and should not be compared to a $40K used CTS-V or whatever. But for that money, a used Lancer Evo -- with its active differentials and less nose heavy attitude -- is a better buy.
    2. The 9-speed Auto in the Cherokee is garbage.
    3. I really don't like the tall hip point and upright seating position of SUVs. This is particularly true of the unibody Cute Utilities which has no credible off-road value. If I need 3 rows, I'll rather pull a Jeff Bezos and drive a Minivan.

    Lancer evo has an utter garbage interior and really is hideously ugly.

    The CTS thing is fair because the special edition in question is about 48 grand which is assinine for any Imprezza that can't attain Lunar orbit.

    9 speed isn't terrible behind the V6. 

    I am trying to throw something domestic into the mix because I am thinking about buying another car.

    CTS and Cherokee are the only two domestic cars I like enough to drop coin on...maybe Grand Cherokee.

    WRX STI and base WRX are probably the only two Asian vehicles I like enough to drop coin on...outside of perhaps the Stinger.

    GTI...Golf R...and maybe a CPO A4 are the only things from Europe.

    Nothing else built is in budget and interesting personally.

    Bit of an existential crisis as an enthusiast as I have never had this few cars I like in terms of ownership.

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    16 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Lancer evo has an utter garbage interior and really is hideously ugly.

    9 speed isn't terrible behind the V6.

    Yes, the Lancer does have a sh!tty interior, but so does the Imprezas including the WRX STi Editions. These are supposed to be Kamikaze AWD Superhero Economy Cars.

    The 9-Speed is garbage because it BREAKS. It'll suddenly start slam shifting from 1st through 3rd with the torque converter clutch still engaged which feels like getting rear ended. It'll also go into neutral and shutdown while you are driving, and you'll need to pull over, turn off the engine, lock the car, unlock the car, restart the car to reset. It has nothing to do with output of the engine or driving aggressively so V6 or not doesn't matter.

    Edited by dwightlooi

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    Good to know on the 9 speed. I like Cadillac but not really a caddy kind of a guy...so Import it probably will be.

    Strongly prefer WRX to Evo but that is pretty much the way I roll.

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    The above being said...holy crap batman...both WRX and Evo have fallen a bit in resale value around here. Yes...I like the WRX better but a couple of the Evos at the Buckeye Miata Club autocross do well. And looking at used CTS...prices falling there also.

    Going to have fun buying the next car.

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    1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    The above being said...holy crap batman...both WRX and Evo have fallen a bit in resale value around here. Yes...I like the WRX better but a couple of the Evos at the Buckeye Miata Club autocross do well. And looking at used CTS...prices falling there also.

    Going to have fun buying the next car.

    The best and least cluttered Evo is the Evolution IV with the low profile spoiler. Unfortunately, you don't get it in the USA. The Evo IX is the next most desirable version. The Evo VIII is ugly with the elephant trunk grille. The Evo X is not too bad looking, but it gained 300 lbs and has the 4B11 engine shared with Chrysler and Hyundai. The 4B11 is LESS refined and LESS durable than the old 4G63. Less refined because it eliminated the Balance Shafts. Less Durable because it has a die cast, semi-open deck block, whereas the 4G63 is has a super durable closed deck iron block.

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    3 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    We get short changed on all kinds of interesting stuff.

    Because...

    #1 Americans weren't really into Kamikaze AWD Superhero Sport Compacts.

    #2 The WRX STi is no longer particularly high performance in today's context.

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    27 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    We get short changed on all kinds of interesting stuff.

    Not really.

    We get the good stuff.  Maybe not the super special one-off Japanese or German sporty stuff, but we get most of it. We did not get the Skylines or the Euro spec only BMW M3 from 1992 or 1993 and other cool stuff, granted. But hey, we got to produce our own cool stuff.  The Prowler, The SSr.  V8 FWD cars like in Northstar powered Olds, Pontiacs and Caddys and LT1 based 5.3 liter WBody cars.   All kinds of pick-up tuck stuff. 

    The Fusion Sport is kinda cool.  The Buick Regal GS is kinda cool. The Tesla Model 3 is kinda cool. All Cadillac V Series cars are kinda cool. All the Hemi stuff is kinda cool. Hellcat, Scatpack or even just the regular V8 Charger...

    The Ford ST and RS stuff is kinda cool. I know we just bashed some of that just now, but those cars are still kinda cool though.  Its just that we like to look down on our stuff and over value the foreign stuff...

    We also produce the good stuff and we consume it in excess.  Mustangs, Corvettes, Raptors, V10 Dodge Rams, Chevrolet 454 SS pick-up trucks, Typhoons, Syclones, Scatpack and Hellcat Challengers and Chargers and Trailhawks and off roading Wranglers...

    There are other good stuff that we just dont consume and let it die off and then we only miss it when its gone...

    Pontiac G8s, Pontiac GTOs, Pontiac Trans Ams, Cadillac CTS V Wagons, Chevrolet SSs and RWD Chevrolet Impalas and Caprices, and the like.. 

    All V8s you say?

    Well, there was never anything wrong with a  Cavalier Z24,  Pontiac Grand Am Quad 4,  Olds Calais 442, Beretta GTZ, Cobalt SS, Pontiac Fiero V6,  FWD W-Body 3.8liter supercharged cars, per se.    OK...some of those engines could have been a tad more gasket problem free...

    We also think that the grass is greener on the other side and wish we got some forbidden fruit our way, yet, other places, ironically, think that way about our stuff and its our stuff to them that is their forbidden fruit...

    The Ford Mustang is finally sold all over the world and its selling like there is no tomorrow.   Our old skool Cadillacs and muscle cars are being restored and sent over to Europe(Finland, Sweden, Norway) the Middle East, in record numbers...

     

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    Call me a bit 90s here, but I would rather build a fast car than buy one...

    Much more fun to drive when they are custom.......

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    On 1/22/2019 at 11:12 AM, ykX said:

    Here we go again comparing new vs used and apples vs oranges ...

    Very Valid comparison as a Smart buyer Should evaluate a new auto and price versus what they can get in the CPO market and decide if the new over CPO is worth it to them. Honestly hard to justify buying a new auto anymore.

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    1 minute ago, dfelt said:

    Very Valid comparison as a Smart buyer Should evaluate a new auto and price versus what they can get in the CPO market and decide if the new over CPO is worth it to them. Honestly hard to justify buying a new auto anymore.

    The argument of value of new vs used car can NEVER be won.  Give me one example where for the price of new car you can not buy something better used?

    It is smart to get the best for your money which in most cases is a used car but for comparison sake it is an invalid argument.

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    3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    If somebody isn't buying new, you won't get to buy it used. 

    A 2019 EVO vs WRX comparison would be great if the EVo had stayed in production...but it didn't.

    My point on new vs used was that 48 K was a ton of scratch for a new Imprezza. 

    how is this...new to new...at 48 grand for the special edition in question...you are approaching Shelby Mustang or Vette Money for a 4 cylinder econobox?

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    52 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    If somebody isn't buying new, you won't get to buy it used. 

    There are lots of other intangible benifits of buying especially performance cars new. 

    One really doesn't want the ownership experience of something that has been driven really hard as a performance car. LOTS of wear and abuse on a lot of performance cars. 

    It's why Ford does not like to lease the Mustang GT very much, from what a trusted Ford salesman told me. 

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    1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

    If somebody isn't buying new, you won't get to buy it used. 

    Well, I am glad somebody else is buying new then! I NEVER, EVER, buy a new car and it is not a matter of affordability but one of value. The current car -- a 2014 CTS VSport Premium -- was bought in 2017 with 26K miles on it for $33K. Its new sticker price was $73K. The previous car, a 2011 Jaguar XF 5.0 Supercharged was bought in 2013 as a CPO for $40K, it was a $68K car new. The car before that was arguably the best value. It was a 2005 C55 AMG bought in 2008 at the depth of the recession with 24K miles on it for $26K it stickered for $60K new -- I put 90K miles on it. The other cars in the familty, a 2017 Acura MDX Advanced Pkg SH-AWD was recently acquired for $40K with 22K miles on the clock, beating an as new price of $58K, and the 2015 GMC Terrain SLT was acquired with 17K miles in 2017 for $18K and it stickered for $28K new.

    The point is that you save a lot of money by avoiding the first 2~3 years of horrendous depreciation. Regardless of your income, value is value. Trust me, rich people do not get or stay rich by throwing money away when they don't have to. Buying used cars and used homes are some of the best things you can do for your finances regardless of how much you make and how much you want to spend on your car. (I am not going to tell you exactly how much we make, but we paid Uncle Sam and the People's Republic of California in excess of $160K in taxes last year).

    Edited by dwightlooi
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    I'm right there with you @dwightlooi I've never bought a new vehicle and honestly never plan to out of value as well but I do know that enthusiasts always ask for these specific cars and then when automakers cancel them for poor sales.."we" wonder why. And all the crazy SUV/CUV boom, enthusiasts seem to hate but they refuse to buy new stuff to actually influence automakers. We essentially have no voice in the market yet we care the most about the market.. 

    Edited by ccap41
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    15 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    I'm right there with you @dwightlooi I've never bought a new vehicle and honestly never plan to out of value as well but I do know that enthusiasts always ask for these specific cars and then when automakers cancel them for poor sales.."we" wonder why. And all the crazy SUV/CUV boom, enthusiasts seem to hate but they refuse to buy new stuff to actually influence automakers. We essentially have no voice in the market yet we care the most about the market.. 

    Demand doesn't really work that way. Demand for new cars is a summation of all buyers' desire and ability to buy or lease it new. But that desire and ability is also affected -- and in no small part -- by the residual demand and hence value as a used vehicle. This DIRECTLY affects lease rates and heavily influences the desirability of brands. Trust me, a BIG part of the reason somebody bought a Camry or RAV4 is how much he believes it'll be worth in 3 to 5 years. At least 30% of the cars Toyota sold they probably sold because people believe (correctly) that Toyotas have one of the highest value retention rates amongst all the manufacturers.

    So, whether you are buying new or used, you are contributing to the demand for the brand, model and type of vehicle you buy. However, if there is relatively speaking a high resale value but weak new sales for a particular model, manufacturers should conclude that their product is overpriced for the demographics they are targeting with it. Again, not rocket science is it?

    Edited by dwightlooi
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    @dwightlooi  Nobody argues about value of used cars, this is pretty obvious to many people, at least most people on this forum.  However, bringing argument of "X new car vs Y used car" when discussing any new car is simply stupid, because as you point yourself out "Y used car" will be almost always a better value.

    Edited by ykX

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    Ironically, one of the two new cars I bought, a 2015 TDI Jetta I sold back at almost full price two years and 56K miles later.

    Other two new cars were a company vehicle an employer provided and a 2005 Scion XB that I paid $14,600 for. The Scion got totalled with 262,000 plus miles on the clock and State Farm wrote a Check for $4600  for it.

    1 minute ago, dwightlooi said:

    Demand doesn't really work that way. Demand for new cars is a summation of all buyers' desire and ability to buy or lease it new. But that desire and ability is also affected -- and in no small part -- by the residual demand and hence value as a used vehicle. This DIRECTLY affects lease rates and heavily influences the desirability of brands. Trust me, a BIG part of the reason somebody bought a Camry or RAV4 is how much he believes it'll be worth in 3 to 5 years. At least 30% of the cars Toyota sold they probably sold because people believe (correctly) that Toyotas have one of the highest value retention rates amongst all the manufacturers.

    So, whether you are buying new or used, you are contributing to the demand for the brand, model and type of vehicle you buy. However, if there is relatively speaking a high resale value but weak new sales for a particular model, manufacturers should conclude that their product is overpriced for the demographics they are targeting with it. Again, not rocket science is it?

    My daughter is a claims adjuster....what she pays to total a Toyota, Subaru or Honda is vastly different and almost bizarre.   She paid out more on a crappy 6 year old Civic with 138,000 miles than a same year Navigator with like 78,000 miles.

    Value of used cars varies GREATLY.

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    2 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Ironically, one of the two new cars I bought, a 2015 TDI Jetta I sold back at almost full price two years and 56K miles later.

    Other two new cars were a company vehicle an employer provided and a 2005 Scion XB that I paid $14,600 for. The Scion got totalled with 262,000 plus miles on the clock and State Farm wrote a Check for $4600  for it.

    Good to hear that the VW-Audi MPG cheating scandal did not affect the resale value of your TDi!

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    Just now, dwightlooi said:

    Good to hear that the VW-Audi MPG cheating scandal did not affect the resale value of your TDi!

    I made out like a bandit on that deal.

    That you own a CTS V and have owned a Jag of that model...your stock just went up about a thousand percent with me. I freaking adore both cars. Hugely.

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    23 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    I made out like a bandit on that deal.

    That you own a CTS V and have owned a Jag of that model...your stock just went up about a thousand percent with me. I freaking adore both cars. Hugely.

    I don't own a CTS V; I own a CTS VSport. Big difference there. 420hp 3.6TT vs 640hp 6.2SC.

    The Jag was a 5.0SC with 470hp, but it is a heavier car and it's 424 lb-ft isn't exactly a a lot. It doesn;t feel faster and it actually isn't faster.

    Edited by dwightlooi
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    4 hours ago, ccap41 said:

    If somebody isn't buying new, you won't get to buy it used. 

    We will always have plenty of peeps to LEASE New, so we have our CPO options! :metal:

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    1 hour ago, dfelt said:

    We will always have plenty of peeps to LEASE New, so we have our CPO options! :metal:

    And, buying a 2~4 year old car as a CPO or used vehicle DIRECTLY props up residual values and DIRECTLY lowers the lease rates.

    Lease rate = (New Price + dealer profit - Residual value - manufacturer's incentives) * effective contractual interest / months of lease term

    Ever notice that cars which nobody wants on the used market are also those that are very expensive to lease or are money losers for the manufacturer or both?

    Edited by dwightlooi
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    5 hours ago, dwightlooi said:

    The point is that you save a lot of money by avoiding the first 2~3 years of horrendous depreciation.

    That is more for people who change their vehicles often.

    I always buy new.  But you wouldnt be buying my new car as a used one as I tend to keep them longer than what you may deem a good used car to buy.

    I amortize my new car purchases properly. I usually keep them at least 8 years. Keep in mind that is in Montreal Quebec where deep freeze and snowy winters are a thing.

    My last car was a 2005 Impala SS and I changed it for a 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD. I kept it only 7 years because I dumb driver ran into my passenger door. I never fixed the door. It was dented a little. And it pissed the phoque out of me looking at my car that way. So I decided to cut that car loose and buy the Acura. I could have fixed her, but in my eyes, she was no longer perfect and I just couldnt keep her.  That and I was about to do some major overhauling on her soon. New battery, maybe a new exhaust etc...So I prefered to put that money into a new car instead. 

    But, my Acura is 7 going on 8 years now. I am perfectly fine in owning her still. She has no major battle scars to speak of, couple of paint chips here and there on the hood, but Ive touched them up and she still looks good even with all that salt and sand and gravel they put on our snowy and icy roads.  I think I will keep her until she dies on me.  I dont think I mind repairing the things I need to repair on her in her older age now just to keep her on the road safely as she still puts a smile on my face as I drive her.  That and there is really nothing out there that interests me in owning enough for me to invest in another new car so because I still love my Acura, she gets to stay with me.. 

    So...the 2-3 years of horrendous depreciation does not really apply to me on the Acura...and if I keep her another 7-8 years, which I think the TL could last that long, then depreciation is really not a factor. 

    Edited by oldshurst442

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    1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

    That is more for people who change their vehicles often.

    I always buy new.  But you wouldnt be buying my new car as a used one as I tend to keep them longer than what you may deem a good used car to buy.

    I amortize my new car purchases properly. I usually keep them at least 8 years. Keep in mind that is in Montreal Quebec where deep freeze and snowy winters are a thing.

    My last car was a 2005 Impala SS and I changed it for a 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD. I kept it only 7 years because I dumb driver ran into my passenger door. I never fixed the door. It was dented a little. And it pissed the phoque out of me looking at my car that way. So I decided to cut that car loose and buy the Acura. I could have fixed her, but in my eyes, she was no longer perfect and I just couldnt keep her.  That and I was about to do some major overhauling on her soon. New battery, maybe a new exhaust etc...So I prefered to put that money into a new car instead. 

    But, my Acura is 7 going on 8 years now. I am perfectly fine in owning her still. She has no major battle scars to speak of, couple of paint chips here and there on the hood, but Ive touched them up and she still looks good even with all that salt and sand and gravel they put on our snowy and icy roads.  I think I will keep her until she dies on me.  I dont think I mind repairing the things I need to repair on her in her older age now just to keep her on the road safely as she still puts a smile on my face as I drive her.  That and there is really nothing out there that interests me in owning enough for me to invest in another new car so because I still love my Acura, she gets to stay with me.. 

    So...the 2-3 years of horrendous depreciation does not really apply to me on the Acura...and if I keep her another 7-8 years, which I think the TL could last that long, then depreciation is really not a factor. 

    Actually, yes it does! It does no tmatter how long you keep the car. It applies to you the first 3 years you had the car. Yes, you have lower annual depreciation costs from year 4 to year 10. But you will always average out worse than the guy who only foot year 4 to year 10 depreciation. Let's do the math...

    Buy a $70K car new, keep for 10 years and sell it for $10K. You lose $60K total, burning a average of $6K a year.

    Buy a $70k car used at $40K, keep it for 7 years and sell it for $10K. You lose $30K at an average rate of $4.3K a year.

    You are spending 39.5% more money on an annual basis. And, these numbers are about right for an Acura which retains 57% of value over 3 years. It gets worse if you buy a car that depreciates more.

     

    Edited by dwightlooi
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    @dwightlooi Totally agree with you on the new versus CPO purchase and depreciation. Only time that does not play out is how I bought my 2006 Escalade ESV Platinum. Cadillac went to their new generation of Escalade and wanted all the last generation sold. I liked the last generation better than the new, but was not ready to buy yet and as such stayed with my CTS I had at the time that the Wife drove.

    GM did an audit and found my dealership to be missing a Escalade. It was no where on the lot. At the end of 2005, December, the owner of the dealership found my Escalade in his private storage where he had a few other cars stuck there to due to space on the dealership lot.

    GM wanted this $100,000 fully loaded Escalade sold. I had just come in for service on the CTS and ran into my sales rep who had sold me my Demo 2yr old CTS and asked if I was interested in an Escalade if the price was right.

    We walked into the showroom where the District manager from GM was talking to the sales manager and owner of Doug's Cadillac and said GM was willing to discount it up to 50% off the MSRP price if they could sell it before the end of December so it was off the books.

    I stepped up and told him if I liked the Escalade, I would take it for 50% off. It was all I wanted, fully loaded Platinum edition in White Diamond. I got it, priced in half and went away with the Escalade rather than taking home my CTS. 

    Now I had been saving to buy what I figured would be a CPO, but instead with getting such a price discount, bought this new with less than 20 miles on it and paid cash. Best auto purchase ever and I still own it.

    I think the rare exception is when the OEM does heavy discounts to move out the last year model auto's. That can make up for going the CPO route.

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    14 hours ago, dfelt said:

    @dwightlooi Totally agree with you on the new versus CPO purchase and depreciation. Only time that does not play out is how I bought my 2006 Escalade ESV Platinum. Cadillac went to their new generation of Escalade and wanted all the last generation sold. I liked the last generation better than the new, but was not ready to buy yet and as such stayed with my CTS I had at the time that the Wife drove.

    GM did an audit and found my dealership to be missing a Escalade. It was no where on the lot. At the end of 2005, December, the owner of the dealership found my Escalade in his private storage where he had a few other cars stuck there to due to space on the dealership lot.

    GM wanted this $100,000 fully loaded Escalade sold. I had just come in for service on the CTS and ran into my sales rep who had sold me my Demo 2yr old CTS and asked if I was interested in an Escalade if the price was right.

    We walked into the showroom where the District manager from GM was talking to the sales manager and owner of Doug's Cadillac and said GM was willing to discount it up to 50% off the MSRP price if they could sell it before the end of December so it was off the books.

    I stepped up and told him if I liked the Escalade, I would take it for 50% off. It was all I wanted, fully loaded Platinum edition in White Diamond. I got it, priced in half and went away with the Escalade rather than taking home my CTS. 

    Now I had been saving to buy what I figured would be a CPO, but instead with getting such a price discount, bought this new with less than 20 miles on it and paid cash. Best auto purchase ever and I still own it.

    I think the rare exception is when the OEM does heavy discounts to move out the last year model auto's. That can make up for going the CPO route.

    Well, good for you. But, that is like saying none of the math on car values matter if you hit the jackpot on the Powerball Lottery. Well... yeah.... of course not!

    The GMT900 Escalade has more "gimmicks" like the fake side vent and the Suburbanite interior though. The K2 cars are nicer inside and out. But the K2 is a big missed opportunity for The General in that they could have gone Aluminum like Ford did, but they didn't. Consequently the K2 is not any lighter than the GMT900. The Escalade is also at a price point where it can easily absorb the LT4 V8, but they didn't do that either. This resulted in an Escalade that is neither fast nor miserly on fuel. Being AVERAGE is how you get beat up on when you are the flagship bling car.

    Edited by dwightlooi
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    32 minutes ago, dwightlooi said:

    Well, good for you. But, that is like saying none of the math on car values matter if you hit the jackpot on the Powerball Lottery. Well... yeah.... of course not!

    The GMT900 Escalade has more "gimmicks" like the fake side vent and the Suburbanite interior though. The K2 cars are nicer inside and out. But the K2 is a big missed opportunity for The General in that they could have gone Aluminum like Ford did, but they didn't. Consequently the K2 is not any lighter than the GMT900. The Escalade is also at a price point where it can easily absorb the LT4 V8, but they didn't do that either. This resulted in an Escalade that is neither fast nor miserly on fuel. Being AVERAGE is how you get beat up on when you are the flagship bling car.

    Very true, I agree that GM missed really taking the Escalade to the next level. With that said, they are still one of the comfiest road trip auto's to have for large people like me.

    Biggest problem that they did not correct till the next generation of Escalade was that from 2006 to 2007, the 2007 lost the ability for large people to put the seat on the floor and it cost head room and space. That cheapness of the power seat system to save a few dollars was just pathetic. Another reason I love the 2006 over the platform change in 2007.

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    28 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Very true, I agree that GM missed really taking the Escalade to the next level. With that said, they are still one of the comfiest road trip auto's to have for large people like me.

    Biggest problem that they did not correct till the next generation of Escalade was that from 2006 to 2007, the 2007 lost the ability for large people to put the seat on the floor and it cost head room and space. That cheapness of the power seat system to save a few dollars was just pathetic. Another reason I love the 2006 over the platform change in 2007.

    My biggest complaint on the MDX is that the seat cushion DOES NOT go down low enough. I have no desire for a high hip point, to seat higher or to look over other cars (or the steering wheel) more. I do very much prefer to seat closer to the floor board for two reasons -- I like head room and I like feet in front of me not at 90 degrees. Hey, I like couches I don;t like bar stools! This is why I don't buy SUVs (the MDX is Wifey's car) and why I always lower the seat as much as I can when riding in an SUV (or any car for that matter).

    Edited by dwightlooi
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    2 hours ago, dwightlooi said:

    My biggest complaint on the MDX is that the seat cushion DOES NOT go down low enough. I have no desire for a high hip point, to seat higher or to look over other cars (or the steering wheel) more. I do very much prefer to seat closer to the floor board for two reasons -- I like head room and I like feet in front of me not at 90 degrees. Hey, I like couches I don;t like bar stools! This is why I don't buy SUVs (the MDX is Wifey's car) and why I always lower the seat as much as I can when riding in an SUV (or any car for that matter).

    I can respect that about your seating position. For me, I have to put it flat on the floor due to my size. Yet the wife love to have the seat at the top, looking over the steering wheel and a bit down. Interesting how people like their seat position. Also amazing how many auto's have very limited electric seating position when they have the room for it. Perfect example is the Mazda CX9 I rented for a family vacation 2 years ago. Worst electric seats ever and I was totally cramped in that auto. Worst ride, comfort, etc. would never recommend a CX9 to anyone and yet so many people even here on this forum love them.

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    37 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    I can respect that about your seating position. For me, I have to put it flat on the floor due to my size. Yet the wife love to have the seat at the top, looking over the steering wheel and a bit down. Interesting how people like their seat position. Also amazing how many auto's have very limited electric seating position when they have the room for it. Perfect example is the Mazda CX9 I rented for a family vacation 2 years ago. Worst electric seats ever and I was totally cramped in that auto. Worst ride, comfort, etc. would never recommend a CX9 to anyone and yet so many people even here on this forum love them.

    LOL... I think you'll "like" the Lexus RX350L Hybrid 3rd Row. The top of the seat cushion is about 4 inches from the floor (which is higher than the regular RX350L due to the battery). You seat with your legs up like an "A".

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    Depends on the vehicle..in a low roofed car, I have to sit low so my head isn't touching the headliner.  In an SUV, I like to sit up moderately high.  In pretty much any vehicle, I like to be high enough to look through the top 1/3rd of the windshield.  I generally like the seat bottom fairly flat (not tilted) and the backrest slightly tilted.  

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