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    William Maley

    Rivian R1S SUV Promises To Go Anywhere On Electricity

      Surprise! Rivian has another vehicle up its sleeve.


    A day after electric-car startup Rivian revealed the R1T truck, the company has rolled out their second model that will be arriving in 2021.

    The R1S SUV utilizes the same skateboard platform as we detailed on the R1T with the battery pack, electric motors, brakes, suspension, and advanced thermal-management system. Battery size and power output are the same as the R1T, but the R1S gains about 10 miles in overall range.

    • 105-kWh: 402 horsepower, and 413 lb-ft of torque, range of 240+ miles
    • 135-kWh: 754 horsepower, and 826 lb-ft of torque, range of 310+ miles
    • 180-kWh: 700 horsepower, and 826 lb-ft of torque, range of 410+ miles

    For those interested in towing, the R1S is rated at a max 7,716 pounds.

    It is impossible to tell the difference of the R1T and R1S in terms of the design when looking at the front. Both have a wide uni-brow light that acts as a charging meter when plugged, and oval-shaped headlights. Move to the side and difference between the two become quite clear. Rivian was clearly going for something with some off-road flavor. There's a boxy profile, body cladding running around the underside of the vehicle, and a set of skid plates. Compared to the truck, the R1S is about 15-inches shorter in overall length and wheelbase. The interior is the same as the R1T's with large screens and a modern design. There's seating for up to seven people.

    Rivian isn't proving any information on pricing for the R1S, but we're expecting it to be slightly more expensive than the R1T. Production is expected to begin in 2021.

    Gallery: Rivian R1S SUV

    Source: Rivian


    RIVIAN LAUNCHES WORLD’S FIRST ELECTRIC ADVENTURE VEHICLES

    Los Angeles, CA, November 27, 2018 – Rivian, an electric vehicle manufacturer, unveiled its highly anticipated Electric Adventure Vehicles™ — the R1T, an all-electric pickup and the R1S, an all-electric SUV — at events surrounding the LA Auto Show this week.

    The R1T™, a 5-passenger pickup truck, debuted at the Griffith Observatory in Los Angeles on Nov. 26, and the R1S™, a 7-passenger SUV, was revealed at the automaker’s press conference at Automobility on Nov. 27. With up to 400+ miles in electric range, a wading depth of 1 meter, lockable storage bins that can fit the bulkiest of gear, and the performance and precise control of quad-motor AWD, Rivian vehicles have been developed to help customers get out and explore the world. Both vehicles will be produced at Rivian’s manufacturing facility in Normal IL.

    “We’re launching Rivian with two vehicles that reimagine the pickup and SUV segments,” said Rivian Founder and CEO RJ Scaringe. “I started Rivian to deliver products that the world didn’t already have – to redefine expectations through the application of technology and innovation. Starting with a clean sheet, we have spent years developing the technology to deliver the ideal vehicle for active customers. This means having great driving dynamics on any surface on- or off-road, providing cargo solutions to easily store any type of gear, whether it’s a surf board or a fishing rod and, very importantly, being capable of driving long distances on a single charge. From the inside out, Rivian has developed its vehicles with adventurers at the core of every design and engineering decision. The R1T and R1S are the result of all this work and we are excited to finally introduce these products to the world.”

    Skateboard Platform
    The foundation of the R1T and R1S is Rivian’s skateboard platform, which efficiently packages the battery pack, drive units, suspension, braking and thermal system all below the height of the wheel, leaving the space above for occupants and their gear.

    Beyond the packaging benefits, this architecture delivers a low center of gravity that supports the vehicle’s agility and stability. Adding to these inertial advantages is a sophisticated suspension architecture with unequal length double wishbone suspension in the front and a multi-link suspension in the rear. The suspension features dynamic roll control and adaptive dampers along with ride-height adjustable air-suspension – allowing the suspension to be adjusted for highway comfort, on-road performance or off-road capability.

    Rivian’s vehicles also feature a quad-motor system that delivers 147kW with precise torque control to each wheel, enabling active torque vectoring and maximum performance in every situation, from high-speed cornering to low-speed rock crawling. With 3,500 Nm of grounded torque per wheel (14,000 Nm of torque for the full vehicle), the R1T and R1S can both reach 60 mph in 3 seconds and 100 mph in less than 7 seconds. This powertrain and chassis also enable the R1T’s tow rating of 11,000 pounds.

    “The beauty and elegance of our quad-motor setup isn’t just about brute power; this architecture provides instantaneous torque with extremely precise control at each wheel, which is completely game-changing from a dynamics perspective, both on- and off-road,” said Executive Director of Engineering and Programs Mark Vinnels.

    Design
    Exterior
    The R1T and R1S designs communicate strength and refinement while still inviting customers to get the vehicles dirty. Strong proportions and clean, continuous bodylines help achieve a modern, inviting stance while acknowledging the performance and level of technology integrated into the vehicles.

    The main bodyline of the R1T, which wraps up and around the cab and gives the vehicle a distinctive silhouette, while highlighting the Gear Tunnel™ cutline and accentuating the rear fender flares. The R1S shares much of its appearance with the R1T but in the rear highlights a function-driven design expressing capability and utility with plenty of space for occupants and gear. Both vehicles feature short overhangs, high ground clearance and aggressive approach and departure angles for a confident and rugged stance, all enabled by Rivian’s unique skateboard platform. A Rivian will be quickly recognized, with its iconic, signature “stadium” headlights and a daytime running light that extends the entire width of the vehicle.

    Interior
    In harmony with the exterior, the interior of Rivian’s vehicles welcomes occupants into a premium environment that conveys craftsmanship yet invites rugged, daily use. Color and materials play an important role in differentiating Rivian vehicles. Sustainably sourced wood is used throughout the interior and its natural finish contributes to a warm and inviting feel. The most striking use of wood is as a structural element that integrates the main center display and driver cluster, integrating form and function beautifully. In the high-wear areas of the interior, the materials take inspiration from sportswear and active gear, combining durable and innovative materials that can easily be cleaned.

    “Although the exterior of the vehicle is what first attracts you, the interior is where you spend the most of your time, so we really focused on creating a transformational space inside our vehicles,” said VP of Vehicle Design Jeff Hammoud. “The biggest challenge was creating an interior design that delivered a premium experience, while still being comfortable as a space that is heavily used. To do this, we looked outside the automotive industry and took inspiration from contemporary furniture, as well as hiking and outdoor gear, to drive the design.”

    Utility
    The R1S and R1T leverage the vehicle architecture to deliver more lockable storage than any other vehicle in their respective segments. The 330-liter front trunk on the R1T and R1S is easily accessed for daily use with the hood fully powered for opening and closing.

    The R1T’s lockable Gear Tunnel aft of the cab extends across the vehicle and provides more than 350 liters of space for hauling oversized gear, such as snowboards, golf bags or strollers. The Gear Tunnel doors also act as steps for loading items into the bed or onto the roof, as well as a seat for such as lacing up hiking boots. The R1T has a watertight, integrated tonneau cover for the bed and beneath the bed floor is a 200-liter sealed bin that can also be used to store a full-size spare tire. The bed features three 110-volt outlets and integrated compressed air.

    As part of a Gear GuardTM feature, the bed also has two integrated locking cables to safely secure bicycle frames and other gear to the bed. Any gear stored in the bed is monitored by a bed camera and alerts owners should the bed or contents be tampered with.

    The rear of the R1S features a liftgate and small tailgate, with the tailgate providing an area to sit and prep for activities such as gearing up for a mountain climb to tightening skis. The second and third row seats fold flat to provide room for any gear required.

    Rivian has developed a racking system that utilizes telescoping racks with easy-to-use mounts that quickly attach to the roof of either the R1T or R1S, as well as the bed rails and bed floor of the R1T. The racks integrate with a range of accessories including tents, travel containers and bike/ski racks. When not in use, the racks can be easily stored in the front trunk.

    Battery System
    Rivian’s energy-dense battery module and pack were developed with the most demanding journeys in mind — incorporating tough underbody protection and an advanced cooling system to give occupants the confidence to go further, regardless of terrain or temperature. Adaptive control algorithms learn driver behavior, optimizing user-specific battery management for maximizing battery life, reliability and second-life reusability. Three battery sizes are planned, with the 180 kWh and 135 kWh available at launch and a 105 kWh being made available within six months.

    The battery is designed for fast charging with charging rates of up to 160kW. This enables approximately 200 miles of range to be added in 30 minutes of charging. In addition to DC fast-charging, an 11kW onboard charger facilitates rapid charging at a Level 2 charger.

    Connectivity and Digital Experience
    Rivian has developed its connected car platform from a clean sheet to allow full control and flexibility over the vehicle hardware, software and user experience. The system operates on a high-speed Ethernet backbone that enables robust security. This platform supports granular over-the-air updates of vehicle software to enhance functionality and improve performance. All Rivian vehicles connect to a cloud-ecosystem for data exchange and processing, enabling machine learning and data services. The digital experience extends beyond the vehicle into the cloud ecosystem and mobile/web applications and provides a consistent and seamless interface for vehicle status and control. The in-vehicle experience consists of a custom 15.6-inch center touch screen, 12.3-inch instrument cluster and a 6.8-inch rear touch screen. Understanding its customers desire for connected adventure, Rivian developed maps, music, navigation and other adventure-focused features to complete the digital experience. The digital user interface strongly reflects adventure, outdoors and exploration – the experience is immersive and natural whether it’s being used in a connected urban setting or well off the beaten path.

    Self-Driving
    The R1T and R1S will launch with a robust hardware suite with multiple modalities including camera, lidar, radar, ultrasonic and a high precision GPS coupled with high definition maps. This hardware enables “Level 3” (hands-off wheel and eyes off road) autonomy for highway operation. Beyond the highway Level 3, the vehicle will have a range of self-driving features focused on enabling active lifestyles.

    Safety
    Rivian’s safety systems and body-structure design will deliver IIHS Top Safety Pick Plus and NHTSA 5-Star ratings. Safety features include 8 airbags for occupant protection and reinforcements of the skateboard platform to protect the battery. The R1T and R1S will also be offered with a full complement of active safety systems enabled by Rivian’s suite of self-driving sensors.

    Vehicle Specifications

    R1TR1Sspecifications.png



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    Loving this Sexy Green AWD with Torque Vectoring SUV. The live reveal was cool. RJ is so much more relaxed and clearly knows his stuff more than Musk. Rivian Automotive should rival and I expect beat Tesla as they are going full size trucks / SUVs compared to cars.

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    It looks good, modern and classic, but time will tell if they can manufacture this successfully and profitably as an independent company.

     

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    15 minutes ago, frogger said:

    It looks good, modern and classic, but time will tell if they can manufacture this successfully and profitably as an independent company.

     

    Yes, going from building prototypes or one-offs to consistent, quality volume production is no small feat, as Tesla has found out this year.    I wish them good luck.  It's a great looking product, and sounds sound technically. 

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    18 minutes ago, frogger said:

    It looks good, modern and classic, but time will tell if they can manufacture this successfully and profitably as an independent company.

     

    Lucky for them, Mitsubishi left the Normal manufacturing plant fully intact and the city sold it dirt cheap to Rivian. They have a fully setup robotic assembly line that RJ says will speed up their assembly of their EVs and with a full paintshop that is already operational along with many other departments, it is coming down to minimal tweaking of the robots in assembly of the Rivian truck and SUV. Should be easier than what Tesla has done since it uses the same skateboard platform for their auto's.

    I love that RJ in his interview with Bloomberg stated there was no reason to attempt to reinvent the manufacturing wheel when the existing competition has already shown how to quickly build auto's. 

    So with that, buying an existing auto assembly line with paint shop and just adjusting it to build their auto's should speed up their time to market. Yes they are expecting to start production after the 1st of the year and tweak and then go full production for sales starting after the first of the year in 2020. I can easily see them delivering this sooner than later. I honestly do not expect any slippage in dates unlike Tesla.

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    1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

    ...going from building prototypes or one-offs to consistent, quality volume production is no small feat, as Tesla has found out

    these last 15 years.

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    These new guys I hope have a couple of billion dollars to get through the lean times until they actually sell product and move units.  Tesla has NOT burned up the car sales charts since their first model went up for sale.

    Funny thing: I remember reading a Car and Driver article about GM's new hydrogen-based (or was it an EV) skateboard platform to put any vehicle on it and drive.  Seems like about 15 years ago.  Wonder what happened to that?

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    16 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    These new guys I hope have a couple of billion dollars to get through the lean times until they actually sell product and move units.  Tesla has NOT burned up the car sales charts since their first model went up for sale.

    Funny thing: I remember reading a Car and Driver article about GM's new hydrogen-based (or was it an EV) skateboard platform to put any vehicle on it and drive.  Seems like about 15 years ago.  Wonder what happened to that?

    There were actually 3 skateboard platforms that GM sunk millions into.

    January 2002 was the GM Hy-wire skateboard platform that used Hydrogen to power a drive by wire system. This was their latest Skateboard platform.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_Hy-wire

    See the source image

    2006 was the updated Skateboard concept from GM, the Sequel fuel cell concept skateboard. https://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/08/gm_announces_dr.html 

    A road-going version of the skateboard as used in the 2006 Sequel concept (photo credit: Sam Abuelsamid)

    October 2017 SURUS autonomous fuel cell skateboard that GM says would help disaster relief.

    https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/gms-surus-fuel-cell-truck-platform-could-be-a-disaster-relief-hero/

    See the source image

    Some might say the 1996 EV1 that GM killed and many believe was a cave in to Oil companies was the very first original skateboard platform.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

    QUESTION to be asked is WHY did GM never actually use this future tech to move auto production forward? 

    Yes we know battery tech was not as good as it is now, but they clearly had ideas on how to build a global platform that would reduce costs in production of auto's with better driving characteristics. 

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    We all wondered if the Wheelbase of 3450mm was correct and Rivian says it is as the full length of this SUV is 5040mm. So we have a wheelbase of 135.8 inches or 11ft 3 inches and the overall length is 198.4 inches or 16ft 5 inches. This does not seem bad for a 3 row full size SUV to compete against the Taho / Yukon / Escalade.

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    Did some scaling and it appears -proportionally- the numbers are correct.
    136" WB, 198" OL is a diff of 62".
    275/65R20s are 34" in diameter, so 136" plus (2) half tires (17" + 17") = 170", leaving 28" of total overhang. Scaling off the screen makes it look really close.

    Despite being only 198" long, the SUV must be bigger in person that via pics. Here it's over a 133" wheelbase '66 Fleetwood (overall length: 228").

    Screen Shot 2018-11-28 at 1.40.51 AM.png

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    9 hours ago, dfelt said:

    We all wondered if the Wheelbase of 3450mm was correct and Rivian says it is as the full length of this SUV is 5040mm. So we have a wheelbase of 135.8 inches or 11ft 3 inches and the overall length is 198.4 inches or 16ft 5 inches. This does not seem bad for a 3 row full size SUV to compete against the Taho / Yukon / Escalade.

    According to the chart that shows the R1T and R1S specs side by side, it looks like the truck has the 135 inchwheelbase and the SUV is about 120 inches...which would make sense that the truck has a longer wheelbase.   And it also says above 'Compared to the truck, the R1S is about 15-inches shorter in overall length and wheelbase'.

    (Interestingly, the chart is in the first post of this thread, but only shows up for me on mobile.  I can't see it on my Mac--the article is truncated.  Form factor rendering issue?)

    Edited by Robert Hall

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    Weird, but if correct helps the SUV by reducing it's bulk. The pickup needs a longer wheelbase so it can get a proper bed- that's a 'short tacoma bed on a tundra' combination.

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    8 hours ago, balthazar said:

    Did some scaling and it appears -proportionally- the numbers are correct.
    136" WB, 198" OL is a diff of 62".
    275/65R20s are 34" in diameter, so 136" plus (2) half tires (17" + 17") = 170", leaving 28" of total overhang. Scaling off the screen makes it look really close.

    Despite being only 198" long, the SUV must be bigger in person that via pics. Here it's over a 133" wheelbase '66 Fleetwood (overall length: 228").

    Screen Shot 2018-11-28 at 1.40.51 AM.png

    Both sexy looking Auto's to me, thank you for doing this comparison. I agree in pictures it does look smaller but clearly is much bigger.

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    The more pictures I see of this from the LA Auto show, the more I am really liking the interior of this SUV. Clearly people who live an active life style had input into what they want out of an SUV like this. Rock on Rivian! :metal:

    https://www.autoblog.com/2018/11/29/2018-l-a-auto-show-mega-photo-gallery/#slide-7476970

    I really hope GM has something like this to show and sell. Would love to buy an AWD pure EV full size SUV from them, but if not and when Rivian gets to building / selling them, I will take a serious look at them.

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    I think the whole thing looks great EXCEPT the front end. My god does that thing need to be changed.

    Edited by ccap41
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    8 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    I think the whole thing looks great EXCEPT the front end. My god does that thing need to be changed.

    There is a business for you, 3rd party front panel replacements that would look better.

    I honestly am surprised that between the headlights, those vertical light sections that the area is not connected to the hood to open up with it and improve the ease of access into that lovely Frunk!

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    The front design is growing on me, not sure about the vertical lighting elements. I do like how restrained and clean it is overall, compared to the overwrought front ends with giant grilles that are typically seen on large trucks and SUVs.

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    13 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    The front design is growing on me, not sure about the vertical lighting elements. I do like how restrained and clean it is overall, compared to the overwrought front ends with giant grilles that are typically seen on large trucks and SUVs.

    That is why I like it is the super clean front end and not an overkill crazy grill like you see on the Lexus or so many others. Very clean, love the daytime running strip and how it is used to indicate recharge. The vertical are the actual headlights, lower for regular lights, upper section for high beams.

    Clean distinct and different from the rest of the auto industry and the craziness of large grills they have done.

    This view really does remind me of a Smiling Emoji! :lol:

    2021-rivian-r1s-1.jpg

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    On 11/27/2018 at 5:09 PM, Robert Hall said:

    Yes, going from building prototypes or one-offs to consistent, quality volume production is no small feat, as Tesla has found out this year.    I wish them good luck.  It's a great looking product, and sounds sound technically. 

    Agree completely.n

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    Wife has spent time reading the web site for Rivian and while not a total fan of the Emoji front end, loves the rest of the truck especially the storage section with the doors acting as steps to also get into the bed. 

    She loves the interior and says she would be happy with this as a daily driver and for allowing her to do her gardening and runs to Home Depot.

    Between now and production, be interesting to see what else comes out. :metal:

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    Get a CPO Colorado and save yourself $50,000 for fuel, does all the same Home Depot runs with aplomb.
    - - - - -
    I don't hate the front of the Rivian; it's got a geometricality about it, but it's not what one would call beautiful or tough (maybe that's the bulk of my reaction). We'll have to watch the development moving toward certification & production. The shoulder of the Automotive Highway of History are jammed with failed efforts, rusting away with time.

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    45 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Get a CPO Colorado and save yourself $50,000 for fuel, does all the same Home Depot runs with aplomb.
    - - - - -
    I don't hate the front of the Rivian; it's got a geometricality about it, but it's not what one would call beautiful or tough (maybe that's the bulk of my reaction). We'll have to watch the development moving toward certification & production. The shoulder of the Automotive Highway of History are jammed with failed efforts, rusting away with time.

    Or an S10 at an auction and save seventy grand. Everyone has a different threshold of what they are willing to pay or what technology they want.

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    Seems according to a recent visit to their HQ and a sitdown, RJ said they would have a 3rd auto. 

    https://www.autoblog.com/2018/12/05/rivian-future-sales-charging-network/

    @A Horse With No Name @Robert Hall @ccap41

    To Quote: Scaringe made mention of a third Rivian coming our way too. He said it will be "smaller in wheelbase than what you see here in LA, but think of it as Rivian's interpretation of what you would see as a rally car. With a lot of ground clearance." Rivian didn't confirm or deny the report, but we did receive confirmation of a third car in the works. An electric rally car sure sounds cool

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    Well, of course a startup looking to insure their future is going to actively talk about a THIRD model when they haven't even built the FIRST one yet. Investors. Buzz me when they issue an IPO, I might be interested. Tesla is stupidly overpriced, but I got burned on Excelsior-Henderson.

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    I saw these in LA and they look really darn close to production ready.  Both of them are "tweeners" in exterior size.  They don't feel as big as an F-150, but not as small as a Ranger either.  The SUV looks about Explorer sized.   Their third vehicle should be a smaller crossover about the size of the old Equinox.

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      Los Angeles - Chevrolet thinks that you don't want a Cruze anymore and instead you'll buy an SUV.  Enter Chevy's answer for that, the 2021 Chevrolet Trailblazer starts under $20,000 and for those taking notes, that's less than the current Chevrolet Trax even though the Trailblazer is the larger vehicle, fitting between the Trax and Equinox in size.
      Themed after the larger Blazer, the Trailblazer looks wider in person than its specs suggest.  Powertrains match the Buick Encore GX on which this shares a platform.  Powered by either a 1.2L turbo or 1.3L turbo 3-cylinder engine, the Trailblazer will deliver up to 155 horsepower. Both engines are mated with a standard Continuously Variable Transmission with selectable stop/start capability. A nine-speed automatic transmission is also available on Trailblazers equipped with the 1.3L engine and all-wheel drive. The AWD is selectable so that drivers can choose between traction or fuel economy as conditions dictate. 
      The Trailblazer features 40/60 split folding second row seats, which enables the vehicle to accommodate objects up to 8.5 feet long. Overall storage capacity is rated up to 54.4cubic feet10 with the second row folded.
      Trailblazer is equipped with a comprehensive list of safety technology:
      Forward Collision Alert Automatic Emergency Braking Front Pedestrian Braking IntelliBeam Headlamps (Auto High Beam Assist) Lane Keep Assist with Lane Departure Warning Rear Vision Camera Teen Driver Rear Seat Reminder3 OnStar4 Additional optional active safety and driver assistance features include:
      Adaptive Cruise Control - Camera Rear Park Assist Lane Change Alert with Side Blind Zone Alert Rear Cross Traffic Alert HD Rear Vision Camera Trailblazer ACTIV is equipped with unique tires and shock tuning. The ACTIV dampers are tuned to enhance vehicle performance and ride comfort when traveling on gravel roads.  The Hankook Sport Terrain 17-inch tires feature an aggressive shoulder design and an all-season tread pattern.
      The front fascia on Trailblazer ACTIV has been revised with the lower section designed for improved ground clearance. Additional exterior differentiation includes two-tone roof, standard roof rails and trapezoid-shaped exhaust tips.
      Trailblazer joins the Trax and Equinox in showrooms in Spring of 2020.
       

      View full article
  • Posts

    • All cars are as posted. 1. 1970 Olds 442 W-30 with those rocket wheels instead of the Magnum wheels and preferably no wing...and no vinyl top either...   2.  1969 Plymouth Road Runner  or GTX...preferably a Road Runner so I could honk the horn to hear it go...meep meep.    3. Dodge Challenger Hellcat.  Redeye is optional. I dont care as long as its a Hellcat...   4. 1973 Pontiac Trans Am SD455 with white vinyl interior. 5. 1933 Ford Roadster Hot Rod  with Ford's latest 5.2 liter V8. Not the Voodoo, but the new GT500 V8.   An Ancient Greek mythological themed motif  to compliment the Hot Rod look to it instead of the stereotypical flames and/or skulls...    These would be numbers matching garage queens. Not babied by all means, they'd be driven, but not hard miles.  I wouldnt pamper them too much, but Id be careful as well.    If I was to replace those with clones and restomodded/pro-toured with modern set-ups, then Id daily drive all of them. One week one car, the following car next week and so forth.     
    • Its gots to be all those residual checks that GM cashes in from movie royalties... The Chevy Suburban just got its Hollywood Walk of Fame Star a couple of days ago.... It is said that the Suburban has had a 60 year career and been in over 1750 movies...so...11 billion dollars/per year profit    The year GM went bankrupt, there was a conspiracy against GM and Hollywood stopped re-running  Smokey and the Bandit, The A-Team, Knight Rider...  
    • I have 2 of my muscle cars already. I would certainly entertain a '50s Eldorado Seville and one of the late '50s MoPar supercars, preferably an Adventurer but a 300 Letter Series would be just peachy too.
    • [Wanders off over the moonscape...]
    • Dozens of unique vehicles sell less than 30K per year. Volume is immaterial, profit is the prime consideration. But even then: Luckily, Cadillac, and in turn; General Motors, produces dozen & dozens & dozens of other models. Tesla only builds like 11K Model S per year. Course; they don't make a profit... but they're still building the thing. We've read some wags claim that 'Chevy doesn't make any money; too many low margin models' and 'Buick sales are slowing every year; it can't be making a profit' and 'Cadillac doesn't sell 2 million units/year; therefore they can't be making a profit'. Solid, disconnected thinking there, that. Gee, I don't think GMC is making $11 billion in profit all by itself.
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