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  • Drew Dowdell
    Drew Dowdell

    Chevy Estimated Range for Silverado EV Work Truck Raised to 450 miles

    When Chevrolet initially took the wraps off the Silverado EV last year, GM had estimated up to a 400 mile range based on its own calculations.  As the Silverado EV has made its way through development, it went for EPA certification and came back with 50 miles more than GM's estimate.  With this new EPA certification, the Silverado EV has an over 100-mile advantage over its only on-sale competitor the F-150 Lightning Extended Range (320 miles). The Silverado EV will launch first in WT trim with this 450-mile range in the next few weeks. Soon after, a less expensive WT model will launch with a 350-mile range.  All Silverado EVs will be available with DC Fast Charging up to 350kW with the ability to take on 100 miles of range in as few as 10 minutes.  WT models will have 510 horsepower and 615 lb.-ft of torque.

    Following up sometime in the fall of 2023 will be the RST First Edition model with a currently estimated 400-mile range. We say "currently" because the RST is said to be available with the same 200kW battery pack in the WT, but also gets a significant power boost to 754 horsepower and 786 lb.-ft of torque in WOW mode, so we'll need to wait till it gets back from the EPA.

    Naturally, these ratings will translate directly into the GMC Sierra Denali EV as well.

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    12 minutes ago, David said:

    Very excited for what GM will do for the full size SUVs to come. I am hoping the Escalade EV launch will be this range or more.

    It's unlikely to be more. An Escalade ESV would be heavier, and 200kW is a LOT of batteries.  Apparently, they can go up to 212kW on this platform, but that is only available in the GMC Hummber EV Edition 1 at this time.  So even with the 212kW pack, the extra weight of an ESV would keep you at 400 miles max, and possibly less.

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    1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    It's unlikely to be more. An Escalade ESV would be heavier, and 200kW is a LOT of batteries.  Apparently, they can go up to 212kW on this platform, but that is only available in the GMC Hummer EV Edition 1 at this time.  So even with the 212kW pack, the extra weight of an ESV would keep you at 400 miles max, and possibly less.

    True valid points, but then this surprise 50 extra miles tends to lead me to believe that GM is being ultra-Conservative on the Ultium battery packs and motors. I would not be surprised as they get more data on the existing EVs to see them tune the controllers giving more range under normal conditions and better estimates under load / trailering.

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    $80,000 is a lot for a work truck, but they may already have commercial fleet buyers lined up.   Question is still how fast GM can scale these EV's up, analysts are predicting 76,000 this year which are mostly Bolts and about 328,000 next year.  Although that probably puts them ahead of any of the Asian brands.

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    13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    $80,000 is a lot for a work truck, but they may already have commercial fleet buyers lined up.   Question is still how fast GM can scale these EV's up, analysts are predicting 76,000 this year which are mostly Bolts and about 328,000 next year.  Although that probably puts them ahead of any of the Asian brands.

    You're the second person to mention $80k (the other was on Facebook).  Where are you getting that number?  The base truck with a 350-mile range was originally going to be $39,995 + delivery, only the top level 4WT will be $79k. I don't expect it will release at that price after 18 months of inflation, but even at 7% inflation, it's still at $42,700. I can see consumer-grade "LT" models clocking in at around $80k base and going up from there. I expect the Trailboss to be mid-80s.  Going from an LT to a Trailboss costs about $5k in ICE models..

     

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    7 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    You're the second person to mention $80k (the other was on Facebook).  Where are you getting that number?  The base truck with a 350-mile range was originally going to be $39,995 + delivery, only the top level 4WT will be $79k. I don't expect it will release at that price after 18 months of inflation, but even at 7% inflation, it's still at $42,700. I can see consumer-grade "LT" models clocking in at around $80k base and going up from there. I expect the Trailboss to be mid-80s.  Going from an LT to a Trailboss costs about $5k in ICE models..

     

    $79,800 is for the 450 mile WT and $74,800 for the 350 mile WT and those are fleet only pricing, not for retail.  Retail customers only get the $100k RST this year.  I don't think we will ever see a sub $45k Silverado EV.  I don't see how they get a $74,000 retail truck down to $40k, even if you cut the battery down to 250 mile range, that is what, $10,000 worth?

    So the question is where will the Cybertruck price out?  If Tesla beats Ford and GM on price, it is kind of game over for Ford and GM.

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    31 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    So the question is where will the Cybertruck price out?

    Good question.

    But if we go with Tesla precedence and not with Musk's lyin' words, the Cybertruck will probably be priced ABOVE GM and Ford...

    32 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    If Tesla beats Ford and GM on price, it is kind of game over for Ford and GM.

    And a big NO to that regardless of where the Cybertruck is priced at.

    And do you know why?

    Ive ranted about this sort of thing on another thread.  Its about normalizng EVs.  Not subjuctating them to some irrelevant childish toy.   

    Childish toy.

    Tesla Cybertruck - Wikipedia

     

    The Ford Lightning has a plethora of actual work truck related features that NORMALIZE it as a legit electric vehicle work truck...

    If Elon wasnt so gung ho about saying that he wants to re-invent the pick-up truck, the Cyber truck works PERFECTLY as a childish toy for the rich folk.  But the Cybertruck is NOT about BEING a childish toy you see.  It is suppose to BE a legit work truck meant to revolutionize the American pick-up truck...

    The thing is, Ford actually put some thought into it and actually DID revolutionize the pick-up truck by NORMALIZING the Ligntning by it looking like an actual vehicle with some gosh darnit features...

    If Elon didnt go with a shock value design and Elon never went with useless with bullet proof windows for a work truck that didnt actually do any bullet proofing as per the ONLY advertising reveal it did and had  Elon KEPT the stainless steel body and the some sort of magic frame and FOCUSED on ACTUALLY revolutionizing the work truck and put some thought into it, he would have done it.  And if he actually DONE the Cybertruck as he said he would and actually RELEASING it 2 years ago, he WOULD HAVE HAD a GREAT childish toy.  But he did NONE of those things. ZERO!!! 

    And last but not least on my point to make. GM has MORE THAN a couple of electric trucks that will go on sale or that are on sale as of NOW that just do the childish toy a helluva lot better...

    2022 GMC Hummer EV Pickup Pros and Cons Review: Making Its Theatrical Debut

    2024 GMC Hummer EV SUV First Drive: Absolutely Ridiculous

     To come shortly

    The All-Electric GMC Sierra EV is Coming to Canada – Eventually |  AutoTrader.ca

     

    Eventually

    GMC Yukon EV Denali - YouTube

     

    And just newly announced

    Cadillac Announces ESCALADE IQ: The First All-Electric Escalade

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    The Cybertuck has a bigger bed, much higher payload and 40% higher tow rating than the Silverado EV or F150 Lightning.   Cybertruck also has a smaller turning circle, better off road ability, (looks like better range and acceleration too) Full Self Driving (to whatever level Tesla is at come fall).  Also the Tesla charge network.  

    If Tesla beats the competition on price too, that is a big hit to the legacy OEM trucks.  Elon estimated 250-500k units a year, I think that is very doable, and if they do 500k, that is probably Ram, Ford and GM taking a 100-150,000 unit loss each, which will definitely hurt the profits at those companies since that is where all the money comes from.  

    I think GM will be okay, Nissan/Renault/Mitsubishi, Honda, Mazda, Subaru are the most in danger, Toyota could be in danger, but they do have a mega cash reserve.  But China is basically done with ICE cars and you can get $12,000 EV's there, and Tesla has the #1 selling vehicle in China, so that battle is basically over.  Tesla has the #1 selling vehicle in Europe and the Chinese are going to Europe, VW has enough market there, Stellantis is probably in trouble, Ferrari is worth more than all of Stellantis now, and probably because Ferrari will be here in 20 years and Stellantis won't be.

    Tesla could be 25-30% of global sales volume in 2035 with BYD and the other Chinese makers making up 25-30%.    So that leaves legacy auto fighting for about half the current market they have, none of those companies can survive on 50% of their current volume because they have too much overhead, so about half will probably go bankrupt.

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    34 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Good question.

    But if we go with Tesla precedence and not with Musk's lyin' words, the Cybertruck will probably be priced ABOVE GM and Ford...

    And a big NO to that regardless of where the Cybertruck is priced at.

    And do you know why?

    Ive ranted about this sort of thing on another thread.  Its about normalizng EVs.  Not subjuctating them to some irrelevant childish toy.   

    Childish toy.

    Tesla Cybertruck - Wikipedia

     

    The Ford Lightning has a plethora of actual work truck related features that NORMALIZE it as a legit electric vehicle work truck...

    If Elon wasnt so gung ho about saying that he wants to re-invent the pick-up truck, the Cyber truck works PERFECTLY as a childish toy for the rich folk.  But the Cybertruck is NOT about BEING a childish toy you see.  It is suppose to BE a legit work truck meant to revolutionize the American pick-up truck...

    The thing is, Ford actually put some thought into it and actually DID revolutionize the pick-up truck by NORMALIZING the Ligntning by it looking like an actual vehicle with some gosh darnit features...

    If Elon didnt go with a shock value design and Elon never went with useless with bullet proof windows for a work truck that didnt actually do any bullet proofing as per the ONLY advertising reveal it did and had  Elon KEPT the stainless steel body and the some sort of magic frame and FOCUSED on ACTUALLY revolutionizing the work truck and put some thought into it, he would have done it.  And if he actually DONE the Cybertruck as he said he would and actually RELEASING it 2 years ago, he WOULD HAVE HAD a GREAT childish toy.  But he did NONE of those things. ZERO!!! 

    And last but not least on my point to make. GM has MORE THAN a couple of electric trucks that will go on sale or that are on sale as of NOW that just do the childish toy a helluva lot better...

    2022 GMC Hummer EV Pickup Pros and Cons Review: Making Its Theatrical Debut

    2024 GMC Hummer EV SUV First Drive: Absolutely Ridiculous

     To come shortly

    The All-Electric GMC Sierra EV is Coming to Canada – Eventually |  AutoTrader.ca

     

    Eventually

    GMC Yukon EV Denali - YouTube

     

    And just newly announced

    Cadillac Announces ESCALADE IQ: The First All-Electric Escalade

    Lot of low volume trucks.  2 Hummer's sold in Q1.  

    Also the Tesla Model Y has a better profit margin than a gas Escalade.  How long before the Chevy Blazer EV has a better margin than the Escalade and sells over 1 million units a year?  My guess is never.  And that is what GM, Ford, Toyota, etc are up against.  Making 20% margin on $50,000 electric cars when GM can't even make that on ICE SUVs that are $75-100,000.  And no one can, Tesla beats Mercedes-Benz's operating margin, and Tesla hasn't even fully realized the profits from solar power, mega packs and charging non-Tesla owners to charge at Tesla stations.

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    31 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Lot of low volume trucks.  2 Hummer's sold in Q1

    0 Cybertrucks were sold tho...

    ZERO

    31 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Also the Tesla Model Y has a better profit margin than a gas Escalade.

    No it doesnt.

    31 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

     How long before the Chevy Blazer EV has a better margin than the Escalade and sells over 1 million units a year?  My guess is never.

    Why 1 million?

    Tesla does NOT sell 1 million of any unit.

    They barely sell 1 million vehicles.

    General Motors sells 8 times that. 

    31 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

     My guess is never.  And that is what GM, Ford, Toyota, etc are up against.  Making 20% margin on $50,000 electric cars when GM can't even make that on ICE SUVs that are $75-100,000.

    You are one confused individual.

    Tesla STILL relies on carbon units to make a profit...

    Tesla has buyers.  Has a LOT of buyers.   But Tesla hasnt got shyte on efficient production that could maximize profits.  They had to resort to slashing prices and you know what?   THAT cost them DEARLY on profit margin.  Enough that investors started whining...   

    But it is what it is...

    You keep believing the Mickey Mouse stories of Tesla.  The ONLY reason why Tesla is still operating is because investors have invested BIG TIME on Tesla and cant back down now.  They are hoping apple pie in the sky dreams thatb Elon promised.  They are banking on it.  But reality says otherwise.  They dont have the leadership, the know-how, the products to make a dent on GM, Ford or Toyota.  Let alone VAG and Hyundai.   Market share IS slipping.   And they dont have FRESH product to counter...  The fan club buyers can buy only so much...   A Cybertruck is just a toy.  A crap toy at that as the Hummer, even if only sold 2, will be ramped up...   Its DELIBERATELY been halted.  The demand is there.  The SAME demand that Tesla has got with its Cybertruck.  But the Cybertruck is still in the oven.  And even when it does come out, it WILL have plenty of teething issues as the Cybertruck has NOTHING related to the other EVs Elon sells.  And like usual, the delays will happen...  But...by THAT time, General Motors will have ramped up their EVs...   Coinicidentally, when the Cybertruck is fimally scheduled to come out, so are the GM truck EVs, along with a dozen other EVs...    

    Elon reminded us a week ago or so, that the roadster is on again...  

    By THAT time, Chevrolet will have sold and delivered AT LEAST  8000 and possibly more E-Rays.   E-Ray is a hybrid.  True.  But when Elon mentioned and showcased the Roadster 2.0, the mid-engined Corvette was still wrapped in mystery and in denial.  I mean NOBODY thought that Chevrolet would EVER engineer a Corvette like that. You know... such a thing as a mid-engined affair let alone an ELECTRIC version of it...

    Good Night dude.   Sweet Dreams.  

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    54 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Stellantis won't be.

    Stellantis sells quite a FEW EVs in Europe.

    VW is giving Tesla a run for their money in Europe.  SHYTE... VW I think has Europe's crown in EV sales.  And you wouldnt know it, but Stellantis is hot on their heels...  

    So...add things up dude.  Stellantis could very well be in 2nd place in EV sales in Europe while Tesla is in 3rd possibly.  Either way...its a hot race. But Stellantis is NOT hurtin' by ANY stretch. I would argue that its Tesla that is losing the European battle front... 

    https://qz.com/stellantis-2022-results-electric-vehicles-fiat-new-500-1850144027

    https://www.autoblog.com/2023/02/22/stellantis-profit-sales-ev-push/

    https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/among-europes-electric-car-leaders-stellantis-passes-tesla-challenges-vw

     

    Just click on the links...   These links are recent.    The oldest being in August of 2022.  The one that states that Stellantis beat Tesla sales and is challenging VW for the crown.    Just so you know...  Stellantis sold 288 000 EVs in Europe... and their profits also rose.  Their EV sales sored 41% CONTRIBUTING to their profits...     Again...do the math... 

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    40 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

     

    Tesla does NOT sell 1 million of any unit.

    They barely sell 1 million vehicles.

    General Motors sells 8 times that. 

    You are one confused individual.

    Tesla STILL relies on carbon units to make a profit...

    Tesla has buyers.  Has a LOT of buyers.   But Tesla hasnt got shyte on efficient production that could maximize profits.  They had to resort to slashing prices and you know what?   THAT cost them DEARLY on profit margin.  Enough that investors started whining...   

     

    Model Y is on pace to sell over 1 million units this year and surpass the Corolla as #1 selling vehicle in the world. 

    GM sold 5.9 million units in 2022, GM is down in China 25% this year, but up in the USA, maybe they hit 6 million and Tesla will be about 2 million.  So GM sells 3 times as many, but Tesla is closing fast, and the next Gen Tesla will sell 4 million units just form 1 model, so with that and Cybertruck Tesla passes GM, Ford, Honda, Nissan, Stellantis in volume by about 2027-28, and maybe they have got VW and Toyota by then, but I would estimate 2030.

    Tesla had revenue of 1.87 billion from selling carbon credits in 2022, that is basically pure profit, the company made $12.6 billion in total profit (GM made $9.9 billion).  So about $10.8 Billion is not from carbon credits.  Tesla's operating margin on auto last year was about 17%, highest there is in the auto industry, Mercedes is at 13%,  GM's was 6.3%.  

     

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    48 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Stellantis sells quite a FEW EVs in Europe.

    VW is giving Tesla a run for their money in Europe.  SHYTE... VW I think has Europe's crown in EV sales.  And you wouldnt know it, but Stellantis is hot on their heels...  

    So...add things up dude.  Stellantis could very well be in 2nd place in EV sales in Europe while Tesla is in 3rd possibly.  Either way...its a hot race. But Stellantis is NOT hurtin' by ANY stretch. I would argue that its Tesla that is losing the European battle front... 

    https://qz.com/stellantis-2022-results-electric-vehicles-fiat-new-500-1850144027

    https://www.autoblog.com/2023/02/22/stellantis-profit-sales-ev-push/

    https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/among-europes-electric-car-leaders-stellantis-passes-tesla-challenges-vw

     

    Just click on the links...   These links are recent.    The oldest being in August of 2022.  The one that states that Stellantis beat Tesla sales and is challenging VW for the crown.    Just so you know...  Stellantis sold 288 000 EVs in Europe... and their profits also rose.  Their EV sales sored 41% CONTRIBUTING to their profits...     Again...do the math... 

    Ferrari sold 13,000 cars last year, and is worth more money than Stellantis, who used to own Ferrari. 

    Tesla Model Y is the #1 selling car in Europe in 2023 gas or IV

    https://www.carscoops.com/2023/04/tesla-model-y-was-europes-best-selling-car-in-q1-2023/

    Look at the chart

    Screenshot2023-05-23at11_01_27PM.thumb.png.9ff903a8e528ba9abc744dd0ebca6715.png

    The Dacia, T-Roc, Peugeot, Opel, Yaris, etc are all gas cars, there isn't even an EV in the top 25, besides something like Fiat 500 that is gas and EV.

    And Tesla is 16th for brands, but at that growth rate they will easily be top 10 next year and then when the Model 2 (or whatever it is called) comes out and that is probably 250,000 units per quarter in Europe, puts Tesla above VW on that list for #1 overall, not just #1 EV.  VW group if you add Skoda, Audi, Bentley, etc together, that would be tough to beat in Europe, they may keep that crown.  But VW is down 25% this year in China and that is their #2 market, so they are in some trouble there, they need Europe in a bad way.

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    13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    The Cybertuck has a bigger bed, much higher payload and 40% higher tow rating than the Silverado EV or F150 Lightning.   Cybertruck also has a smaller turning circle, better off road ability, (looks like better range and acceleration too) Full Self Driving (to whatever level Tesla is at come fall).  Also the Tesla charge network.

    You'd think somebody from the Steel City would understand work trucks utilize  tool boxes as well.  One thing that's impossible with a Cybertruck.

    13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Elon estimated 250-500k units a year, I think that is very doable, and if they do 500k, that is probably Ram, Ford and GM taking a 100-150,000 unit loss each, which will definitely hurt the profits at those companies since that is where all the money comes from.  

    There is no way Tesla sells 500,000 Cybertrucks in the US.  Maybe globally, but there is zero chance they move that many here when the D3 all have electric trucks and ICE trucks. 

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    1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

    You'd think somebody from the Steel City would understand work trucks utilize  tool boxes as well.  One thing that's impossible with a Cybertruck.

    There is no way Tesla sells 500,000 Cybertrucks in the US.  Maybe globally, but there is zero chance they move that many here when the D3 all have electric trucks and ICE trucks. 

    Cybertruck has a frunk, storage space in the rear sail panels and a covered, lockable bed, which by the way is a foot longer than the Lightning’s bed.  
     

    I think 500k units a year is doable, especially globally.  Millions of pick ups are sold each year, there are plenty of potential buyers.

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    21 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    I think 500k units a year is doable, especially globally.  Millions of pick ups are sold each year, there are plenty of potential buyers.

    You also know that most truck buyers are scared of EVs, right? 

    I know it's a useless sample size but I don't know anybody who would drive a truck that also would consider an EV at this point. 

    I know buyers are out there but 500,000 from ONE of 4 companies all selling electric trucks is a little nuts. 

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    19 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    $79,800 is for the 450 mile WT and $74,800 for the 350 mile WT and those are fleet only pricing, not for retail.  Retail customers only get the $100k RST this year.  I don't think we will ever see a sub $45k Silverado EV.  I don't see how they get a $74,000 retail truck down to $40k, even if you cut the battery down to 250 mile range, that is what, $10,000 worth?

    So the question is where will the Cybertruck price out?  If Tesla beats Ford and GM on price, it is kind of game over for Ford and GM.

    You've read a sensationalist article that misinterprets a report from GM Authority.  We already knew that the initial release was only going to be to fleet buyers, and those would be 3WT or 4WT trims only. But those are the two highest WT trims that Chevy will build. As production moves into 2024, the lower-level trims will arrive and get closer (but not hit exactly) that $40k price point.   The article I'm assuming you read, or a variant of such, incorrectly implies that there will not be any Silverado EV trims below 3WT.  You are correct about the price points for those trims, but not that those trims will be the lowest trims available.

    Yes, for consumers, only the RST will be available late this year, and likely only the first 100.   I have an RST reserved, but not a launch edition.  However, it's not the RST that I really want. Based on what I've seen so far, I'd want a Premier/LTZ/High Country or equivalent or the Trail Boss depending on what they do to the suspension.

    I'm aiming for 400-mile range, air suspension, and if I can swing it, Super Cruise. I don't need crab walk, 4-wheel steering or any of that.  Just a 2025 EV version of my truck would be fine.

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    20 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    The Cybertuck has a bigger bed, much higher payload and 40% higher tow rating than the Silverado EV or F150 Lightning.   Cybertruck also has a smaller turning circle, better off road ability, (looks like better range and acceleration too) Full Self Driving (to whatever level Tesla is at come fall).

    Tesla has none of that. It's all still vaporware until the official specs are released.

    And even already, the Silverado has those vaperware specs beat with its own vaporware specs. The initial RST has a 10,000 lb tow rating, sure, but there will also be a tow package that takes it to 20,000 lbs.

    Comparing payloads doesn't tell the whole story.  It's a legal definition rather than a technical one. If the Tesla Cybertruck keeps that 3,500 lbs payload, then it will have to be registered as a Class 3 truck, that's the same as a Silverado HD 3500 or Ford Super Duty F-350.  That's not because of some amazing capabilities but because of its curb weight plus max payload rating.  Having to register the Cybertruck as Class 3 means higher registration costs, higher tolls in many states, higher insurance costs, and higher inspection costs in many states.

    There is absolutely ZERO chance that Chevy engineered the Silverado EV to only have a 1,300 lb. payload. That's less than a Colorado.  It's a sticker compliance rating so that buyers can register it as a Class 2, the same as a Silverado 1500.   How do I know this?  That the work truck will eventually be available with a 20,000 lb tow package gives it away.  Towing requirements dictate that the tow hitch supports 10% of the trailer weight and 10% of 20,000 is 2,000. 2,000 is higher than the 1,300 lb. current payload rating of the RST.

    This tells me that all Chevy needs to do to make an HD version of the Silverado EV is swap out some badges and the GVWR compliance stickers.

    Chevy Silverado Payload Capacity Chart

     

    Year Silverado 1500 Silverado 2500HD Silverado 3500HD
    2020-2021 1,750-2,280 pounds 3,614-3,900 pounds 4,353-4,572 pounds
    2019 1,745-2,543 pounds 2,968-3,435 pounds 3,283-6,137 pounds
    2017-2018 1,739-2,018 pounds 2,968-3,559 pounds 3,283-4,415 pounds
    2016 1,734-1,990 pounds 2,967-3,559 pounds 3,305-6,288 pounds
    2015 1,738-2,011 pounds 2,975-3,583 pounds 3,305-6,288 pounds

    Wonder why payload capacity went down on the newer trucks? It's not because the trucks got less capable, it's because their curb weight went up. GM had to down-rate them to maintain their legal classification.  This is true across the industry.

    19 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Lot of low volume trucks.  2 Hummer's sold in Q1.

    You've been told about this. Hummer had a stop sale while a battery issue was addressed. There are people still on the Hummer waiting list and deliveries have resumed.

    5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Cybertruck has a frunk, storage space in the rear sail panels and a covered, lockable bed, which by the way is a foot longer than the Lightning’s bed.

    Lighting has a frunk (much larger than Tesla's), Silverado and Sierra both have a frunk and lockable storage. Silverado has a mid-gate. Locking beds are an option on all of them.  As a truck owner, I can tell you there isn't much difference in a 5.5 to a 6.5 bed. In either case, long items will have to travel with the tailgate down.  Bed length doesn't matter much in the incremental units until you hit 8 foot and can fit a full sheet of plywood back there and still close the gate.   Something the Silverado can do with a short bed beacuse it has a mid-gate that the Cybertruck doesn't.   For example, in the Lightning, Silverado EV, or Cybertruck I'd have to leave the tailgate down on all three to transport my motorcycle (7 feet) in the bed. So I'd rather take the more maneuverable and shorter bed.

     

    5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    I think 500k units a year is doable, especially globally.  Millions of pick ups are sold each year, there are plenty of potential buyers.

    Do you really think people like my parents, who have been buying F-series pickups since the 1970s, are going to buy a funky-looking aluminum doorstop instead of going back to the Ford dealer?  F-150 and Silverado/Sierra, and even Ram have some of the best brand retention in the US market.  Cybertruck may win sales from newcomers to the truck market who are trading in a Telluride or X5, but I don't think Tesla will make many inroads into the legacy truck makers.  Do I think Cybertruck will sell? Yes... but not at those numbers.

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    4 hours ago, ccap41 said:

    You also know that most truck buyers are scared of EVs, right? 

    I know it's a useless sample size but I don't know anybody who would drive a truck that also would consider an EV at this point. 

    I know buyers are out there but 500,000 from ONE of 4 companies all selling electric trucks is a little nuts. 

    Screenshot2023-05-24at5_21_04PM.thumb.png.244e1b464ffe1504c2d796e35019c99c.png

    2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    You've read a sensationalist article that misinterprets a report from GM Authority.  We already knew that the initial release was only going to be to fleet buyers, and those would be 3WT or 4WT trims only. But those are the two highest WT trims that Chevy will build. As production moves into 2024, the lower-level trims will arrive and get closer (but not hit exactly) that $40k price point.   The article I'm assuming you read, or a variant of such, incorrectly implies that there will not be any Silverado EV trims below 3WT.  You are correct about the price points for those trims, but not that those trims will be the lowest trims available.

    Yes, for consumers, only the RST will be available late this year, and likely only the first 100.   I have an RST reserved, but not a launch edition.  However, it's not the RST that I really want. Based on what I've seen so far, I'd want a Premier/LTZ/High Country or equivalent or the Trail Boss depending on what they do to the suspension.

    I'm aiming for 400-mile range, air suspension, and if I can swing it, Super Cruise. I don't need crab walk, 4-wheel steering or any of that.  Just a 2025 EV version of my truck would be fine.

    There are 4 WT trims? So the trim line for the Silverado EV will be:

    1WT

    2WT

    3WT

    4WT

    1LT

    2LT

    3LT

    4LT

    High Country

    Trail Boss

    RST

    Holy complexity Batman!

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    While that does sound like a ton of different trims/models, my best guess would be 1-4 of both WT and LT would be solely based on battery and drive wheels.

    small battery - 2WD - 1WT/LT

    big battery - 2WD - 2WT/LT

    small battery - 4WD - 3WT/LT

    big battery - 4WD - 4WT/LT

    I could also be 100% wrong and it wouldn't be the first time! 

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    2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

     

    Do you really think people like my parents, who have been buying F-series pickups since the 1970s, are going to buy a funky-looking aluminum doorstop instead of going back to the Ford dealer?  F-150 and Silverado/Sierra, and even Ram have some of the best brand retention in the US market.  Cybertruck may win sales from newcomers to the truck market who are trading in a Telluride or X5, but I don't think Tesla will make many inroads into the legacy truck makers.  Do I think Cybertruck will sell? Yes... but not at those numbers.

    If the Cybertruck has more range, more acceleration, FSD, better handling, tighter turning radius, large bed, and all the stuff they promise, and deliver it at a price that is equal or less the competition then yes people will buy it.  The Model Y outsells the Rav4 now, so much for Toyota loyalty, people fled for the better product.  And that is a case when the Tesla costs a lot more money, imagine if it was dollar for dollar even.

    The full size truck market in the USA is about 2 million units, mid-size is probably another million.  I read the global pickup market was about 4.8 million last year.  Even if 10% of global truck market goes to Cybertruck then they hit 500,000.  Now I don't know how many countries they will sell it in, but even if they just sell it in the USA and get 20% of the truck market, they can hit 500k units.  

    Probably no one thought the #1 selling vehicle in Europe would be an American car, because people said Europeans will never buy a car form the USA.  But Tesla proved that wrong. 

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    4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    There are 4 WT trims? So the trim line for the Silverado EV will be:

    1WT

    2WT

    3WT

    4WT

    1LT

    2LT

    3LT

    4LT

    High Country

    Trail Boss

    RST

    Holy complexity Batman!

    The ICE Silverado today has:

    4 engines, 2 transmissions, 5 bed/cab configurations, and 2 driveline configurations. (5 engines were available in 2022, the V6 was finally dropped from WT models)

    It has 8 trims (WT, Custom, Custom Trail Boss, LT, RST, LT Trail Boss, LTZ, ZR2, High Country). Plus each of those trims have levels, like several levels of WT, the ZR2 Bison Edition, Several editions of LT, Sub-packages like Z71.

    Ford has even more with 8 trims, 3 cabs paired with 3 boxes, 2 drivelines, and I can't even get a clear answer on how many engines. (3.3 V6, 2.7 EB V6, 3.5 EB V6, 5.0 V8, 3.5-Hybrid, 3.5 HO V6 Raptor, 5.2 V8 Supercharged... the 3.0 V6 diesel was dropped, did I miss any?) and while all transmissions are 10-speed, they have a light-duty version, a heavy duty version (V8s and Raptor), and the hybrid version, so really it's 3 different transmissions. 

    At the risk of beating a dead horse, Ram has 8 trims, 4 engines, several suspensions including air and not-air, 4 different sizes of infotainment system, several "special editions" that Ram loves to make.... and the Ram Classic is also still in production with a bunch of its own configurations.

    Nissan simplifies it for you by only offering trims configured certain ways, and if you don't like it, too bad. Before you even get to pick out a color, you have 17 different trim/bed/cab/driveline configurations to choose from. Luckily, you have only one choice of engine. 

    Your list would be significantly less complex than the current situation.  That said, I expect that the LT levels might be trimmed a bit, down to 2 or three. For example, LTZ might be dropped completely in favor of a High Country trim. Or we might not get a High Country at all. (though I hope we do)

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    41 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    While that does sound like a ton of different trims/models, my best guess would be 1-4 of both WT and LT would be solely based on battery and drive wheels.

    small battery - 2WD - 1WT/LT

    big battery - 2WD - 2WT/LT

    small battery - 4WD - 3WT/LT

    big battery - 4WD - 4WT/LT

    I could also be 100% wrong and it wouldn't be the first time! 

    The flexibility of Ultium means that they can offer "city" version of these trucks for a lower price.  If I'm a commercial fleet master and Chevy can offer me a bunch of 2WD work trucks in 2WT trim with a 300 mile range that I never have to fuel and cut my maintenance costs way down, I think I'd seriously consider it.  We have four 2wd V6 Ram Classics at work, but they almost never leave the 11 sq miles of the town. If I stay there long enough, I want to convince the public works director to put chargers in soon. 

    GM never said what the lowest range of battery they would build for these trucks would be, it's always been shown as "up to" 400 miles, now 450 miles, of range. 

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    You went to so much effort to construct… what is an opinion… in only the most technical sense of the word. It is almost entirely ?.

    Eventually, cost and physics will catch up with Elon's promises. 

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    If the Cybertruck has more range

    The most range the Model X can manage is 348 miles. The Cybertruck is heavier and has much worse aero. Tesla will need to put nearly 100% more battery in the Cybertruck to get it to 500 miles. Can you imagine the costs of a double stacked Model X battery? It's not going to be the $70k version that gets that range, it's going to be the $130k version. GM will have 450 miles of range available in a truck at the bottom end of the Cybertruck's price range. For $80k, you'll be able to get a Silverado EV with 450 miles of range or a Cybertruck with likely around 350 or less. 

     

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    more acceleration

    And just like on the Model-X, if you opt for the Plaid, you get a reduction in range... so Cybertruck won't be both 500 mile range and 2.9s acceleration. It will be one or the other. 

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    FSD

    A $15k option. SuperCruise and BlueCruise are like $2,500. 

     

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    better handling

    It's a truck, who cares? And GM has magnaride, the best shocks on the planet.

     

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    tighter turning radius

    GM has 4-wheel steering and even their ICE trucks turn well for their size. 

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    large bed

    Already explained why unless it's an 8-foot bed, it doesn't matter. GM and eventually RAM win on this anyway because they have mid-gates.

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    The Model Y outsells the Rav4 now, so much for Toyota loyalty, people fled for the better product.  And that is a case when the Tesla costs a lot more money, imagine if it was dollar for dollar even.

    RAV-4 sales are up and there's waiting lists for the Plug-in. If you want to know who the Model-Y is stealing sales from, go look at the BMW and Mercedes sedan sales charts. 

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    if they just sell it in the USA and get 20% of the truck market, they can hit 500k units

    LOL, they're not going to get 20% of the US market with a $70k base price.  Keep in mind that "the truck market" includes the Tacoma, Ranger, Colorado, and Canyon which base in the high $20k range.  You can buy two Tacomas for the price of one base Cybertruck. 

     

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    Probably no one thought the #1 selling vehicle in Europe would be an American car, because people said Europeans will never buy a car form the USA.  But Tesla proved that wrong.

    No one tell the Europeans, they've been buying Fords for years. The catch is that Europeans buy European Fords that are built in Europe.  Tesla's explosion in sales there coincided with the construction of Berlin-Brandenburg.  It also helps that EVs avoid the fuel taxes. The Euro companies are going to catch up to Tesla pretty easily. 

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    GM also has 

    Hummer Crabwalking GIF - Hummer Crabwalking Gmc Hummer Ev - Discover &  Share GIFs

      to counter @smk4565's wild claims of 'if' Cybertruck has better handling.

    Musk didnt think of crab walk.

    Like I said... He could have had an awesome toy AND and awesome truck had he put SERIOUS thought into revolutionizng American pick-up trucks.  AND...he could have all THAT 2 years prior.  He didnt.  He let his ego and hubris dictate but alas, his mouth writes checks that his a$$ cant cash.  And so GM beat him to the punch...   

    So...GM comes along with a HUMMER EV and makes for a BETTER toy.

    GM takes this classic bad boy that GM make into a toy

    Mil-Spec's First Hummer M1-R Is A Bright Yellow 800 HP Supertruck With A  $400k Price Tag | Carscoops

    then adds the smaller version of said toy

    Mean-looking Hummer H2 SUT With a Lift and Fuel Off-road Wheels — CARiD.com  Gallery

    Both that were HUGE successes I might add and creates to ressurect the EV version

    2023 GMC Hummer EV SUT's Estimated Range Rises to 355 Miles

    But GM also KNOWS what truck buyers NEED so GM continues on IMPROVING their work trucks and ADDS crab walk TO their work trucks and crab walk now becomes a USEFUL tool in the workplace AND for offroading...  

    But GM is not done...  GM out-Musks'  ludicrousness by adding FREEDOM mode

    How To Use The GMC Hummer EV Watts To Freedom Mode

    WTF: Watch GMC Hummer EV's Watts to Freedom launch mode in action - CNET

    image.jpeg.c617111ac5c22cabd23db27839bfffdd.jpeg

    WTF? GMC HUMMER EV will rock with electric guitar sounds | Fox News

     

    Tesla has the right stuff as we speak.  And is selling like crazy.  HAs been selling like crazy since Tesla has been selling EVs. 

    But...everybody is gonna be sellin' NEW EVs soon enough.  GREAT EVs.  Tesla has to contend with dated models. Albiet their cars are great technologically, their cars suffer from age and quality.  And Musk hasnt announced ANY 2nd generation of ANY of its vehicles.   Aside from the roadster but roadster's mean nothing when Porsche, Corvette Ferrari and all others are about to enter the EV zone...    Corvette, Ferrari, Porsche ALL have brand recognition and their performance numbers  equal Tesla's whether ICE or EV so moot point...

    Tesla has to contend with dated models.  Refreshes wont cut it when BRAND new CUVs await the car buying public.  Soon enough.  

    When Tesla gets 2nd gen versions...the COSTS will shoot up again.  You know...R&D.  Renovations to the production factories to assemble the NEW vehicles...   Tesla is making bank now when the cars are old and the R&D has been paid for.   Lets wait to see the costs go up when NEW tooling is required and see what that does to thier BOTTOM LINE.  And they will NEED to spend R&D money for NEW generations because the Model Y cannot sustain 1 million units as NEW FRESH models from OTHER OEMs arrive.  Its the nature of the automotive business...    

    Lets talk about THOSE  'ifs' shall we?    

    The 'if' Tesla's 2nd generation of Model S will sell as compared to its competion vis-a-vis what the original Model S accomplished a decade ago.   

    The 'if' Tesla's 2nd generation of Model 3 and Y will sell as compared to its competion vis-a-vis what the original Model 3 and Y accomplished almost a decade ago.   And will the Model Y BE a best seller?     

    The 'if' Tesla has learned to be efficient in producing WITHOUT quality hiccups with their 2nd generation models.

    The 'if' Tesla could get investors to invest untold BILLIONS again with a BLIND eye...

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    Tesla makes a great powertrain... I'll give them that.

    But the "This is nice for a mid-level Passat" interior by Ikea and used bar of soap exterior is what kills it for me. 

    It's been proven that you can do aero and look amazing.

    1995-oldsmobile-aurora-photos-courtesy-general-motors-llc.jpg.webp

    140429822.jpg

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    46 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Tesla has to contend with dated models.  Refreshes wont cut it when BRAND new CUVs await the car buying public.  Soon enough.  

    When Tesla gets 2nd gen versions...the COSTS will shoot up again.  You know...R&D.  Renovations to the production factories to assemble the NEW vehicles...   Tesla is making bank now when the cars are old and the R&D has been paid for.   Lets wait to see the costs go up when NEW tooling is required and see what that does to thier BOTTOM LINE.  And they will NEED to spend R&D money for NEW generations because the Model Y cannot sustain 1 million units as NEW FRESH models from OTHER OEMs arrive.  Its the nature of the automotive business...    

    Lets talk about THOSE  'ifs' shall we?    

    The 'if' Tesla's 2nd generation of Model S will sell as compared to its competion vis-a-vis what the original Model S accomplished a decade ago.   

    The 'if' Tesla's 2nd generation of Model 3 and Y will sell as compared to its competion vis-a-vis what the original Model 3 and Y accomplished almost a decade ago.   And will the Model Y BE a best seller?     

    The 'if' Tesla has learned to be efficient in producing WITHOUT quality hiccups with their 2nd generation models.

    The 'if' Tesla could get investors to invest untold BILLIONS again with a BLIND eye...

     

    The updated Model 3 is coming soon, Model Y update probably next year.  They look pretty ready to go with this.Screenshot2023-05-24at8_06_54PM.thumb.png.dd5622683b1f2bbe313b6646e90d8124.png

    And part of the update is improving efficiency in manufacturing.  Tesla is also going to 48 volt electric system which will save weight and cost in wiring harnesses.  This car may actually get cheaper with more content added in.

    The next gen Model 2 or whatever it will be called, is only going to use 40% the factory space that a Model 3/Y takes to build, auto factory assembly lines are about 30% inefficient, the paint process is inefficient, etc.  Since Tesla will gigacast and build the car in modules, rather than traditional assembly line, it sucks a ton of cost out, thus you get a sub $30,000 Tesla.

    And it goes back to the point I have been making.  What will matter in the EV wars is cost and scale.  No one else has Tesla's scale or vertical integration, and no one else has the cost controls.  Others might get there, but it is a race to get there.  The first 5 or 6 that get there will survive, the rest go bankrupt.

     

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    9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    The updated Model 3 is coming soon, Model Y update probably next year.  They look pretty ready to go with this.Screenshot2023-05-24at8_06_54PM.thumb.png.dd5622683b1f2bbe313b6646e90d8124.png

    And part of the update is improving efficiency in manufacturing.  Tesla is also going to 48 volt electric system which will save weight and cost in wiring harnesses.  This car may actually get cheaper with more content added in.

    The next gen Model 2 or whatever it will be called, is only going to use 40% the factory space that a Model 3/Y takes to build, auto factory assembly lines are about 30% inefficient, the paint process is inefficient, etc.  Since Tesla will gigacast and build the car in modules, rather than traditional assembly line, it sucks a ton of cost out, thus you get a sub $30,000 Tesla.

    And it goes back to the point I have been making.  What will matter in the EV wars is cost and scale.  No one else has Tesla's scale or vertical integration, and no one else has the cost controls.  Others might get there, but it is a race to get there.  The first 5 or 6 that get there will survive, the rest go bankrupt.

     

    Oh yes, just what I wanted. A 2024 Saturn SC

    1998_saturn_s-series_coupe_sc1_fq_oem_1_500.jpg

     

    Tesla hasn't gotten Gigacast fully operational and GM, VW, and several others have gotten those presses too.  It's not a technology that will be unique to Tesla for more than a minute. 

    There is a big downside to gigacasting though. It greatly increases the likelihood of a vehicle being totaled in an accident. 

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    1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Oh yes, just what I wanted. A 2024 Saturn SC

    1998_saturn_s-series_coupe_sc1_fq_oem_1_500.jpg

     

    Tesla hasn't gotten Gigacast fully operational and GM, VW, and several others have gotten those presses too.  It's not a technology that will be unique to Tesla for more than a minute. 

    There is a big downside to gigacasting though. It greatly increases the likelihood of a vehicle being totaled in an accident. 

    I have wondered that about how these giga cast vehicles will be repaired.  Rarely do shops replace quarter panels, and if an inner quarter panel is damaged on a car it is probably totaled anyway.  The rear body panel would be interesting because when cars are rear ended semi-hard, it is pretty common to need a rear body panel and perhaps a trunk floor since that metal folds pretty easily.  If the giga-cast cars can't get a floor or rear body put in and you have to replace the back half of the car then it's totaled.  

    But EV's have pretty strong salvage value and would be totaled easier than an ICE car anyway.  I'll tell you what is going to total a lot of car in the future is LED headlights and radar cruise sensors unless that costs comes way down.  I wrote an estimate on a 2023 Hyundai Tucson about a month ago, it needed the headlights, DRL lights, bumper, grille, rad support, AC condenser, radiator and the radar sensor.  Was over $12,000 to fix.  When that car is 4 years old, if it hits a deer and breaks all 4 lights, bumper, grill and the radar, it is totaled for not even being that damaged.

    Had a Hyundai Elantra yesterday that hit a deer, this is $9k in damage using recycled and aftermarket parts, it was over $12,000 if using OEM parts, in which case it would have been totaled.  IMG_5628.thumb.JPG.9cca89ea7aca4660ba5aae023d5eae9c.JPG

    Toyotas, Hondas and Subarus are cheap to fix, but all this other stuff they are making to be disposable anyway, especially if used car values drop back off and the parts prices stay sky high.

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    12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Had a Hyundai Elantra yesterday that hit a deer, this is $9k in damage using recycled and aftermarket parts, it was over $12,000 if using OEM parts, in which case it would have been totaled.

    Gigapress is going to make that so much worse. A small side impact that would normally just bend some suspension bits and maybe an outer fender can total a Tesla.   Some of the anti-EV people we had around this place were right about cars becoming disposable appliances, but it wasn't the EV part that will bring that on... it's the Gigapress.

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    1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Gigapress is going to make that so much worse. A small side impact that would normally just bend some suspension bits and maybe an outer fender can total a Tesla.   Some of the anti-EV people we had around this place were right about cars becoming disposable appliances, but it wasn't the EV part that will bring that on... it's the Gigapress.

    And it's insane that vehicles are, by far, more expensive than they've ever been, to just be disposable appliances.

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    I wonder if the shift to EV will also shift what vehicles are most profitable to automakers.  Right now pickups are super profitable, but if these big trucks and SUVs need a 200 kWh battery that costs $30,000 compared to a smaller crossover/sedan with a 67 kWh battery that is $10,000, that is a huge gap to overcome from a profit standpoint.  Perhaps car makers and consumers will shift back to smaller vehicles to get range for less money.  And it might be that an Equinox EV could have better profit margins than a Silverado EV.

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    I have posted so many times in so many threads here that the ExoSkeleton Cyber Truck would have been a game changer. 

    Instead, the public will get a Honda Ridgeline competing Unibody pickup that will have a fraction of what Musk has promised.

    All flash and no real steal!

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    On 5/26/2023 at 10:52 PM, David said:

    I have posted so many times in so many threads here that the ExoSkeleton Cyber Truck would have been a game changer. 

    Instead, the public will get a Honda Ridgeline competing Unibody pickup that will have a fraction of what Musk has promised.

    All flash and no real steal!

    And all the moronic Tesla fanboys and Elon bootlickers are going to ecstatic about it, claiming it's the greatest truck ever built and will outsell all Detroit trucks...

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    7 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

    And all the moronic Tesla fanboys and Elon bootlickers are going to ecstatic about it, claiming it's the greatest truck ever built and will outsell all Detroit trucks...

    It doesn’t have to outsell them but even if they take 100k sales each from Ford, GM and Ram that will hurt their bottom lines.  Because those companies live off pick up truck profits, Tesla doesn’t have to.

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    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    It doesn’t have to outsell them but even if they take 100k sales each from Ford, GM and Ram that will hurt their bottom lines.  Because those companies live off pick up truck profits, Tesla doesn’t have to.

    Again, not only not going to happen at a $70k starting price when F-150 and Silverado 1500 top out at around $80k.

    A Cybertruck sale doesn’t mean one of the truck makers lost a sale it can just as easily be an X5.

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    On 5/28/2023 at 10:50 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

    Again, not only not going to happen at a $70k starting price when F-150 and Silverado 1500 top out at around $80k.

    A Cybertruck sale doesn’t mean one of the truck makers lost a sale it can just as easily be an X5.

    It could be that Cybertruck buyers never had a pickup or wouldn't otherwise have bought a pickup, butI would guess a lot of the sales would come from other pickup buyers, whether it be full size trucks or even Tacoma and Ridgeline.  We don't know the price of the Cybertruck yet either, but it will have that $7500 credit, so that could help it compete, plus no gas compared to the fuel cost of a 20 mpg pickup.  And we don't quite know how FSD might be monetized, Tesla might be able to sell cars at zero margin if their income comes from FSD, software sales, electricity sales, etc.  Lots of unknowns, but will be interesting how it plays out.

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    On 5/30/2023 at 8:04 PM, smk4565 said:

    It could be that Cybertruck buyers never had a pickup or wouldn't otherwise have bought a pickup, butI would guess a lot of the sales would come from other pickup buyers, whether it be full size trucks or even Tacoma and Ridgeline.  We don't know the price of the Cybertruck yet either, but it will have that $7500 credit, so that could help it compete, plus no gas compared to the fuel cost of a 20 mpg pickup.  And we don't quite know how FSD might be monetized, Tesla might be able to sell cars at zero margin if their income comes from FSD, software sales, electricity sales, etc.  Lots of unknowns, but will be interesting how it plays out.

    A few statements from both Tesla and Tesla Fan sites. These Cybertruck buyers have never owned a pickup truck. The bulk are new to the pickup truck market. Those that had Cybertruck reservations have become Ford or Rivian Pickup buyers as they got there first. 

    Course we the public have no real knowledge of how many refunds have been made to date against the Cybertruck nor how many actual reservations Tesla has.

    Tesla on their investment day and battery day have clearly stated that they will start with top end fully equipped Cybertruck orders first, so 6 figure trucks that are no different than a GMC Hummer Pickup or the F150 Lighting Launch edition or what is know as the Launch Edition for the Chevrolet Silverado or GMC Sierra Launch Edition. All 6 figure trucks.

    GM and Ford like Rivian will get to 5 figure trucks far faster than Tesla which has proven they truly have NO INTEREST in building cheap EVs. I doubt you will see a Cybertruck below 70-80 thousand dollars before 2026 when GM and Ford as well as Ram will be shipping their commercial EV editions.

    On top of this, the Cybertruck will be a FAILURE as it is not a Real Truck but a Unibody Honda Ridgeline competitor that will not be able to haul the bulk of todays 5th wheels and other trailers as it was never designed or intended to support the real truck market.

    Yes Tesla Fans will buy it, but the bulk of the truck market will not buy Tesla.

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    5 hours ago, David said:

    A few statements from both Tesla and Tesla Fan sites. These Cybertruck buyers have never owned a pickup truck. The bulk are new to the pickup truck market. Those that had Cybertruck reservations have become Ford or Rivian Pickup buyers as they got there first. 

    Course we the public have no real knowledge of how many refunds have been made to date against the Cybertruck nor how many actual reservations Tesla has.

    Tesla on their investment day and battery day have clearly stated that they will start with top end fully equipped Cybertruck orders first, so 6 figure trucks that are no different than a GMC Hummer Pickup or the F150 Lighting Launch edition or what is know as the Launch Edition for the Chevrolet Silverado or GMC Sierra Launch Edition. All 6 figure trucks.

    GM and Ford like Rivian will get to 5 figure trucks far faster than Tesla which has proven they truly have NO INTEREST in building cheap EVs. I doubt you will see a Cybertruck below 70-80 thousand dollars before 2026 when GM and Ford as well as Ram will be shipping their commercial EV editions.

    On top of this, the Cybertruck will be a FAILURE as it is not a Real Truck but a Unibody Honda Ridgeline competitor that will not be able to haul the bulk of todays 5th wheels and other trailers as it was never designed or intended to support the real truck market.

    Yes Tesla Fans will buy it, but the bulk of the truck market will not buy Tesla.

    The Cybertruck has higher payload and towing than any gas or EV truck in the 1500 class.  Also has a bigger bed than any EV truck.  Sounds more capable than the rivals.

    I think Elon’s 250-500k units per year is accurate, especially globally.  The Toyota Hilux is the #4 best selling vehicle in the world this year, outselling the F150.  Lot of truck buyers out there.

     

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    15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    The Cybertruck has higher payload and towing than any gas or EV truck in the 1500 class.  Also has a bigger bed than any EV truck.  Sounds more capable than the rivals.

    Duh. That's because it's a 3500-class truck.

    In Pennsylvania, that means $202 a year to register rather than $105 for a Silverado EV, along with higher insurance costs.

    And AGAIN, it is a paper rating. The Silverado EV is capable of more, but the sticker is only set where it is to let it slip in as a 1500 series truck.  The fact that there will be an option that will exceed the Cybertruck's rating tells us this. It may get slighly heavier duty shocks and springs, but I expect the press release of the Silverado EV HD to be underwhelming in content.

    Bed size really doesn't matter in the 1500 class under 8 feet and in the 3500 class, the Cybertruck gets beat by true 350/3500 trucks in payload capacity and bed size.

    From a capability standpoint, the Cybertruck is the Nissan Titan HD of the truck world. Not quite a 3500, but priced like a high-end 2500. (Silverado 2500 HD High Country 6.6l Gas = $72,895).

    And the range and capability of the Cybertruck that you keep parroting is only going to be for the higher-end models.  It's going to be a $110k+ vehicle to get the 500 mile range. The Silverado EV will get 450 for $30k less.

    15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    The Toyota Hilux is the #4 best selling vehicle in the world this year, outselling the F150.  Lot of truck buyers out there.

    You can buy 4 Hiluxes for the price of one 500-mile Cybertruck. The math isn't mathing.

     

    Edit: I forgot to add - the Silverado EV can accommodate an 8+ foot payload. The Cybertruck can't.  So yea, the Silverado EV beats it there.

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    7 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Duh. That's because it's a 3500-class truck.

    Just out of curiosity, how do you know this? Are you getting it based on the payload/towing ratings plus the assumption that it has to weigh between X - X thousand pounds due to size/battery/motors? 

    Or have they released an estimated weight already that I just haven't seen? 

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    7 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    Just out of curiosity, how do you know this? Are you getting it based on the payload/towing ratings plus the assumption that it has to weigh between X - X thousand pounds due to size/battery/motors? 

    Or have they released an estimated weight already that I just haven't seen? 

    From Tesla themselves in a letter to CARB:

    Quote

    While we have not yet begun production of the Cybertruck, we expect it to have a towing capacity of 7,500-14,000+ lbs., and it should very likely qualify as a “Class 2B-3” medium-duty vehicle.

    There is no class "2b" in Pennsylvania. You get bumped into class 3.

    But you can also simply math it. A Model-X plaid is 5,390. Even if we assume the Cybertruck will be the same weight (it won't) 5,390 + 3,500 is 8,890. That's Class 2b Federally and Class 3 in Pennsylvania.

    But that would be just the 250-mile range model. Expect the 500-mile version to have double the battery of the Model-X Plaid, so an additional 1,200 lbs.  Now it's firmly in Federal Class 3 territory (Silverado HD 3500) and PA Class 4.

    And those estimates are based on Model-X weights. Tesla themselves estimate a top curb weight of 6,500 lbs. (5,390+1,200= 6,590)

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    The Silverado EV is said to weigh over 8,000 lbs.  And I bet the Silverado is heavier than the Cybertruck because after seeing Munro and Associates tear apart the Hummer battery, that Ultium pack is not weight efficient at all.  Tesla’s battery is more space and weight efficient than Ultium.  

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    31 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    The Silverado EV is said to weigh over 8,000 lbs.  And I bet the Silverado is heavier than the Cybertruck because after seeing Munro and Associates tear apart the Hummer battery, that Ultium pack is not weight efficient at all.  Tesla’s battery is more space and weight efficient than Ultium.  

    Again. The payload rating is only for the sticker. Federally, the Silverado EV will be in the same class as the Silverado 1500.

    The Silverado EV is 233 inches long and the Cybertruck is 231 inches long. But that means because the Cybertruck has a 6.5 ft bed rather than the 5.5 (without midgate) the Silverado EV has, the Silverado EV will have a larger passenger compartment.

    While the Silverado EV has a larger "snout" like a conventional truck, look how far back from the windshield and front the driver sits in the Cybertruck.

    Tesla-Cybertruck-Electric-Pickup-Truck-Profile-View.webp

    That's all wasted space.

    Giving me the same energy....

     

    Wiki_cars_210.jpg

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    17 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    The Cybertruck has higher payload and towing than any gas or EV truck in the 1500 class.  Also has a bigger bed than any EV truck.  Sounds more capable than the rivals.

    I think Elon’s 250-500k units per year is accurate, especially globally.  The Toyota Hilux is the #4 best selling vehicle in the world this year, outselling the F150.  Lot of truck buyers out there.

     

    How do you explain that the Pryamid angle of the truck and especially the bed means there is NOTHING out there from a bed camper to a 5th wheel that can work with this truck as it is NOT standard in anyway. On top of this, basic uses of a truck require a flat bed area which this does not have. Then you also have the same problem as the Rivian, a Unibody bed which means unlike the Ford, you cannot just simply replace the bed when it has damage.

    Cybertruck will have the same extreme costs to repair as Rivian. Damage can be small, but repair of this Unibody truck will be expensive.

    Rear-Ended Rivian Gets $42,000 Repair Bill | Rivian Forum – Rivian R1T & R1S News, Pricing & Order... (rivianownersforum.com)

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    2 hours ago, David said:

    How do you explain that the Pryamid angle of the truck and especially the bed means there is NOTHING out there from a bed camper to a 5th wheel that can work with this truck as it is NOT standard in anyway. On top of this, basic uses of a truck require a flat bed area which this does not have. Then you also have the same problem as the Rivian, a Unibody bed which means unlike the Ford, you cannot just simply replace the bed when it has damage.

    Cybertruck will have the same extreme costs to repair as Rivian. Damage can be small, but repair of this Unibody truck will be expensive.

    Rear-Ended Rivian Gets $42,000 Repair Bill | Rivian Forum – Rivian R1T & R1S News, Pricing & Order... (rivianownersforum.com)

    Fun fact Ford discontinued beds for 2015-2021 F150s so if you need a bed replacement you have to buy a used one which is probably $10k because the salvage vendors know you can’t buy a new one.  Ford does still sell the side panels.

     Cybertruck will have accessories, I think there is already a camper add on for it.  
     

    The Silverado EV is basically unibody too, it isn’t body on frame it is more unibody on battery pack.

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    55 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Cybertruck will have accessories, I think there is already a camper add on for it.

    That's like selling phone cases before the phone is released.

    56 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    The Silverado EV is basically unibody too, it isn’t body on frame it is more unibody on battery pack.

    It's both. They have to come up with a new term for it. Technically, it's Unitized Body-on-Frame.  The latest Suburbans and Tahoes are set up like this too. Everything from the front to back on the body is now one welded piece and it all sits on a traditional frame.

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    2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Fun fact Ford discontinued beds for 2015-2021 F150s so if you need a bed replacement you have to buy a used one which is probably $10k because the salvage vendors know you can’t buy a new one.  Ford does still sell the side panels.

     Cybertruck will have accessories, I think there is already a camper add on for it.  
     

    The Silverado EV is basically unibody too, it isn’t body on frame it is more unibody on battery pack.

    This so deserves a FAILURE emoji as there is NO camper. Musk had a one and done custom built unit to show off, but there is no company building or even offering to build yet a camper, trailer, etc. for the Cybertruck.

    There is a company that has exclusive rights to sell you a limited space bed tent. There website and name is a deceptive name as it is NOT a CAMPER.

    Homepage - Space Campers

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    • Some interesting reading. Here's Why People Are Willing to Pay More for an EV - CNET The Real Costs of Electric Car Ownership - CNET Why I Don't Own an Electric Car Yet - CNET EV Charging vs. Gas: We Do the Math to See Which is Cheaper - CNET I will say that the last writing where people say installing a home charger negates any savings on charging versus gas buying. That might be true if they have been driving a Prius but for me that had an SS my wife drove spending $600 a month on premium fuel or $7,200 a year on gas, even if I had paid the cost of an Electrician installing a home charger rather than doing it myself as I wrote about here:   I am still coming out ahead on home charging with an EV that is roomy, comfortable and way better in many ways than my SS was.
    • Yes, that is correct, the miles between charging that has been driven by my wife. Correct, on your 265 miles statement. We are charging almost 100% at home as unless I go on a road trip, there is no need for local fast charging at this time since we can just come home plug it in and the next morning before my wife leaves, she has a full battery pack. So other than the Electrify America Charging in Yakima that we did when we went for cherries two weeks ago, all charging is at home.
    • Great writeup, David! It's much appreciated. On your screenshot of "Charging Activity" Is that the miles driven between those dates?  So, you drove 265 miles from the 5th to 10th and it cost you $9.22? Am I reading that correctly? And at 0.10/kw that's about 92.2kw used from the two dates?  What percentage do you charge to at home? Are you charging to 100%? 90%? 80%?
    • The grand plan was a separate new service to the house of 200 amps so that the garage would have plenty of power for charging multiple EVs and I would have a separate bill each cycle for knowing what I was spending for EV driving. Waking up in the morning to a full charge of power and never having to stop at a gas station due to having a Level 2, 240-volt home charger is a luxury everyone should have allowing you to smile as you drive by a gas station with folks outside dealing with their fueling. The ultimate perk of EV ownership.  I started with reaching out to my local utility and inquiring of the process for a new service. My local utility was more than accommodating in helping me out with the details. As an engineer that loves to learn, this process was very eye opening into the costs, lack of efficiencies by agencies and electrical contractors with a surprising ending to my eventual solution. Let's start off by making one thing clear, every state has their own regulations in regard to electrical. While the USA follows the national electrical code as a starting point, each state, county and city then adds their own additions or subtractions to the code. Always make sure to follow your local code no matter if you hire a company, independent contractor or are a DIY (Do it Yourself) type of person. Full information on the national electrical code can be found here:  The National Electrical Code (NEC) - Electrical Safety Foundation (esfi.org) Another thing to point out is every state has their own way of dealing with electrical supply and competition. As such, some states allow their end users to pick among competitive electrical suppliers even to the point of choosing to use Green Energy (Solar, Wind, and or Hydro) or not (Coal, Natural Gas, Nuclear). Other states tend to regulate this down to the city and or county within a state. Washington state is a regulated power supply state so that depending on the county you live in; you deal with your county or the state power supplier. Washington state has one of the greenest electrical grides in the country. It produces 7,816 MWh of electricity and it breaks down as follows: Figures as of May 16th, 2024 Petroleum-Fired - 0% Natural Gas - 21.3% Coal-Fired - 3.9% Nuclear 10.3% Renewables - 64.1% (Hydro, Wind, Solar & Ocean) Fueling Stations in Washington State: Motor Gasoline - 1,846 Stations Propane - 64 Stations EV Charging - 2,153 stations E85 - 5 stations Biodiesel, CNG, & Other Alternatives - 8 stations If you wish to check out your own state information you can do so here by clicking on your state:  U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis Starting off on my project I had decided to go ahead with a ChargePoint+ Home Flex Hardwired solution. Yes, there are a wide variety of good home chargers that run from $250 to $2000 dollars such as the Porsche home charger. Home Flex Hardwired Level 2 EV Charger (chargepoint.com) The choice of this charger was based on the following: Some of the best reviews out there by thousands of people Hardwired allowed me the best power supply available to the EV building in future protection as newer EV tech comes online. ChargePoint sells both CCS and NACS supply cords, making upgrades from my current EV with CCS to a future EV with NACS easy as a self-Upgrade to the charger. ChargePoint app allows for use both at their fast-charging network and to track my own use and cost. You can find a large diverse choice of L1 and L2 chargers on Amazon or from other sources. Many utilities will have rebates if you purchase through your local utility or in the case of my own system, I had to file a rebate form as my charger was on the approved list, but not available from my utility. ChargePoint+ also points out that till 2032 you might be able to qualify for a $1,000 rebate from the federal government. Electric Vehicle (EV) Charging Incentives | ChargePoint Now that I have covered some of the basics about electrical and power source, lets dive into my journey for a Level 2 Home Charger. Karl at the Snohomish PUD sent me a form that I had to fill out, this was a "New Service Residential Request" form. Here I had to fill out the normal details such as my house address, current status of the electrical to the home, type of new service being requested, pictures of where the service would need to be connected to the house and where I wanted the service panel to be, etc. This form had an area for requested measurements from the house to the utility pole, gross measurements of where the wiring would need to go so that the service could be sized up accordingly. The last part was the direction from my PUD on checking with the city for any additional requirements. For those wanting to see what the new service request form looks like I supply it here: 1097R_NSQres.pdf City requirements were that any electrical changes to the existing structure that comprised more than 10% cost of the home improvement value as assessed by the county required that the electrical lines from the utility pole to the house be installed underground rather than overhead. Luckily for me, my estimated costs would be under this so I was not looking to have to figure this into the cost of adding the service or so I thought. Karl at SNOPUD said he would do the assessment and have out to me the updated info shortly. In the meantime, I reached out to a couple of recommended electrical companies from the SNOPUD website and a few independent electricians to get estimates on the work to be done. Specifically, I wanted two quotes, first is the all-new service added to the house with dedicated panel feeding the garage. Second was updating the existing panel to support a charger in the garage using my existing service. Here I was expecting a $5 to $6 thousand dollar install connection for the first service and based on the auto industry estimate of around $1,500 to $2,000 for the second. Boy was I off by a bunch. All the estimates from both the electrical companies I contacted, and the independent contractors had the new service install between $10 to $12 thousand dollars and the existing services was between $4,700 to $6,200. This also did not include the connection to the PUD. Here I was informed from Karl at SNOPUD that the service could be done but would require a new transformer to our cul-d-sac to support the added amperage pull. As such, this was more than just a wire connection but an outage to the cul-d-sac ending in an almost $15,000 charge. Who knew that adding a service where you pay them for the flow of electricity would have such a huge cost and impact on my project. This put the cost of a new service between $25,000 to $27,000 dollars. So much for the Auto Industry estimates of $1,500 to $2,000 dollars and it also did not include the required $125.00 electrical permit I would have to get from the city and inspection. I did keep in mind that the price of electrical work varies based on the cost of labor where one lives, power of the charger, distance from the charger to the electrical panel along with the job complexity. What about DIY (Do it Yourself), could I do this job myself and what would the cost be? First, I knew from all the quotes that I was greatly under my 200-amp service pull as I have Gas stove, Dryer, Water heater and Furnace. As such, the 240V 30-to-50-amp circuits that are in my panel are not being used at all. One of the independent electricians had stated that the cheapest way would be to pull an existing circuit breaker and run the wire into the panel with the new Circuit breaker, but most electricians did not like leaving existing wires from outlets in the panel even if they were sealed off, they just did not like doing this, so everyone had quoted based on adding a secondary panel. With this information, I researched from the ChargePoint+ website on installing the hardwired charger I had purchased from them. ChargePoint+ has installation videos and covers all the information on installation as well as becoming a certified installation expert. ChargePoint Home Resources | ChargePoint ChargePoint Home Flex (CPH50) Hardwired Installation Video | ChargePoint Become a Certified ChargePoint Installer | ChargePoint From the website above I gathered the following information on the materials that I would need. Conduit large enough to hold the wiring Brackets to attach the conduit and screws 90-degree wire access conduit Associated pipe nipple for connection into the panel Insulated bushing Appropriate washer and locknut for connection to the panel 6 AWG wiring Black, Red and Green wires per code ChargePoint+ clearly states to use 6AWG for their Level 2 Charger installation. 6 AWG wire stripper 70amp circuit breaker Some states require these to be Arc or GFCI for indoor or outdoor, national code for outdoor installation is a GFCI breaker upstream from the outdoor installation. Check local regulations for proper type required. Make sure to get the proper type of circuit breaker for your panel, I had D block circuits. Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters vs. Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters - Bob Vila Torque Screwdriver set Most do not know that depending on the size of the circuit breaker, when you connect the wiring to the breaker, the screws must be torqued to a certain range. The 70amp circuits per the side of the breaker states 45 in. lbs. Paintable caulking to seal both access points into the house for the charger. With having my list of materials, I choose to first compare prices online from Home Depot and Lowe's. What I found was that Home Depot was much higher in the cost of the wiring, but cheaper in conduit, circuit breakers and accessories. Lucky, I have both home improvement stores within a 2-mile radius of my house. What I also noticed was that neither home improvement store had the required tools I would need, so clearly, I would have to stop off at my local Harbor Freight tool store. Harbor Freight Tools | Quality Tools, Lowest Prices With the knowledge of what I needed and a shopping list, I headed out and accomplished the following: Electrical Permit from my city.  Wiring from Lowe's - Lowe’s Home Improvement (lowes.com) Conduit, circuit breaker and accessories from Home Depot - The Home Depot Tools from Harbor Freight tools company - Harbor Freight Tools | Quality Tools, Lowest Prices Opening up the electrical panel as you can see here, I have my household 200amp circuit at the top. This will kill power to everything in the house, below this was the kitchen and laundry room 240V circuit and then on down throughout the rest of the house to the garage with various circuits. At this point, I knew that I would be turning off the 200amp circuit to work on this panel and protect the rest of the house. Note to point out is that when you turn off this 200amp circuit, the power is not flowing to the rest of the panel, but you still have the power coming from the street to this panel and so there is live electricity in that 200amp circuit. One must always be cautious when working with electrical. One safety thing to do, remove ALL jewelry, watches, phones, etc. Have nothing on you that is electrical or any kind of metal and that includes a wedding ring. All these are places that can cause an electrical jump / short that can cause you harm. As one that grew up working on auto's and having great respect for the electrical system of auto's, homes, datacenters, etc. there are some things that I do not have a problem doing. In this case I kept the power to the house on while I pulled the panel cover off. A proper panel should have all the wires in 90 degrees to the circuit breakers and to the grounding / neutral bars that are silver in this case. Here I have not had any manipulation of the box done with patchwork electrical hacks. It is always best to learn the details or hire the proper person to do your electrical work. Being that I am comfortable with pulling out the circuit breaker that is turned off, I choose to pull and replace the 240V 30-amp laundry room circuit. Here in this picture, you can see it removed and a better view of the grounding / neutral bar of the electrical panel. At this point, I wanted to pull out the punch of where I was going to run the new electrical lines into the panel. Once I pulled out the punch, I drilled a small starter hole from the inside to the outside so I could line up properly the larger drill bit for the incoming conduit. Upon drilling, I attached the pipe nipple extension to the 90-degree wire access conduit, and I inserted it through the outside wall. Here I put on the washer, lock nut and insulated bushing as you can see here. Now the next step was to install the conduit, some love their hard conduit and gluing it together as it comes in 10ft lengths, and you then have to either use a special heater tool to bend the hard conduit or buy the proper pieces that are curved. I choose to go with liquid proof flexible commercial conduit. The benefit here is that while this is a bit more expensive, the flexibility of the line makes it so much easier to install. One thing no matter what type of conduit you choose to use is that one has to run the electrical lines through the conduit. Hard conduit can be with tight bends very challenging to run the electrical lines unless you have a special tool that allows you to snake through the conduit, attach the electrical lines and then it uses an electrical motor to pull it. I choose to run my flexible conduit out in a straight line, and I had pushed through my three 6awg lines through it so that I had the wire already in the conduit. Now this does make the conduit much heavier to install, but I found it faster and easier to do it this way. You will also notice that I have a Black, White and Green wire rather than the code dictating a Black, Red and Green wire. Both Lowe's and Home Depot were out at the time of purchase the red 6awg wire. So, I did what is allowed and that is on the ends of the wire at both ends, I wrapped them with red electrical tape. I started with connecting the liquid tight end connector to the flexible conduit and attaching it to the 90 degree wire access to the panel. I pushed the wires through to the inside and reattached the liquid tight cover and then started using the brackets to attach the conduit to the house. Two things to consider, one is the over all look of the installation, sometimes the cheapest approach is not the best especially when it comes to ones significant other, wife, partner, etc., not everyone likes to see conduit. I choose to do my best to minimize the visibility of the conduit and once I paint it to match the house it will truly not show up as the wife never noticed it when she came home till after I showed here. Upon installation of the conduit with the 6 AWG wires, it was time to mount the home charger in my designated place. Here you need to make sure it is level, supported by the wall which can sometimes require additional bracing. Here you see my ChargePoint+ unit being installed on the wall. With the charger installed onto the wall, I finished up the connection of the conduit / wires into the unit. Connected the electrical supply side and the charging cable side and reinstalled the cover. With the installation of the charger unit and wiring done, it was time to focus on the circuit breaker installation side. Here I had an LED head light as I finally turned off the 200-amp circuit breaker to the house. I attached the red and black wires to the circuit breaker, installed the ground wire and then installed the circuit breaker into the panel. I also at this time wrapped each wire from the laundry outlet in proper electrical tap and a wire twist to add additional protection and secured them out of the way in the panel corner. I also at this time used my torque screwdriver to ensure proper torque on the wires. With the installation completed at the panel side, I turned back on the 200-amp circuit enabling the house to have power and was time to go enable the charger unit. Here ChargePoint+ has an outstanding cellphone app to enable you to finish up the setup of the charger. I was able to connect to the unit via WiFi and set the unit to 70 amp circuit hardwired. I also then connected it to my house WiFi for internet access. This allowed me to do a update on the unit for software. Here ChargePoint has on the left side of the unit indicators for WiFi connection. Green is good and as you can see in the picture above, I have WiFi connection and the alert is showing green so no issues with the charger. Upon using the regular ChargePoint software app on my smartphone I was able to complete setting up an account and final configuration of my charger as a home charger unit. The unit is green when not in use but ready to be used. During Charging the unit is a pulsing blue. At this point, I had a functional Level 2 240V 50amp hardwired home EV charger with CCS connector. What did this cost me, simple a total of $1,032.23 Level 2 ChargePoint+ Home Flex hardwired charger: $549.99 plus $54.99 sales tax before $200.00 rebate. Total Cost of Materials: $391.77 which was from Home Depot & Lowe's. Tools bought for the job: $110.48 which comprised of a 6 AWG wire striper and a Torque Screwdriver set from Harbor Freight. Electrical Permit: $125 from the city. Best part of this is the cheap charging we get at home at .10 cents per kW. The ChargePoint app allows me to track and monitor in real time our costs and amount used, so it will make it easy to subtract it from the electrical bill to see the house use versus the EV. The app shows that I am constantly at the 11kW controller capabilities of home charging from Kia. This brings me back to why I titled this the Good, Bad and the Ugly. New Service request is the ugly as the costs of the new service from my power supplier has costs that have never been talked about before to me and I still have to pay for the electrical use which makes this the ugly when you are looking at a five figure cost. The bad is clearly adding the new service panel and the associated costs to an electrical company to do the work, pretty much double what the auto industry has stated having a Level 2 home charger installed would actually cost. Good is for those of you who are willing to learn and do the work, a DIY install is in my humble opinion a very cheap way to go even though it did take a chunk of my time, I have no regrets about learning the process to install and dealing with my city on installation. End result is a quality home charger that will serve me well for many years. Please post any questions or comments, happy to respond on this personal journey into home charging of my EV. View full article
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