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  • William Maley
    William Maley

    Rumorpile: What We Think We Know On The Mid-Engine Corvette

      Another day, another batch of mid-engine Corvette rumors

    The mid-engine Corvette is the rumor that won't die. This past year has seen speculation explode thanks to spy shots showing a mid-engine mule running around GM's Milford Proving Grounds. The Detroit News has published a report today saying the model would arrive in 2019 along with other details about the model.

     

    We're going to give a summary of the most interesting bits from the report, but we highly recommend checking out the full piece.

    • Has the codename of Emperor and is expected to debut in early 2018 (most likely Detroit)
    • The goal for this model is to try and draw younger folks into buying a Corvette. The average age of a Corvette owner is around 59 years old.
    • A source says the mid-engine Corvette will become the sole variant after 2021. This is when the current C7 Corvette will end production.
    • Could be the basis for a sports car wearing the Cadillac badge
    • Bob Lutz and former chief engineer for the Corvette, Tom Wallace said they got plans for a mid-engine Corvette approved in 2007. These plans would be shelved only a couple years later due to the bankruptcy.


    Source: The Detroit News

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    A mid-engine supercar should be a Cadillac.  Why mess with the Corvette formula that has worked for 60 years.  They also aren't going to draw in younger buyers with the price point of a mid-engine car.  Look at the Alfa 4C, that is the cheapest mid-engine car on sale and it is about $65k with a 230 hp 4 cylinder.   A mid-engine Corvette will be over $100,000 easy.  Which is why it should be a Cadillac, Cadillac can support $100k pricing (or at least should be able to)

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    A mid-engine supercar should be a Cadillac. Why mess with the Corvette formula that has worked for 60 years. They also aren't going to draw in younger buyers with the price point of a mid-engine car. Look at the Alfa 4C, that is the cheapest mid-engine car on sale and it is about $65k with a 230 hp 4 cylinder. A mid-engine Corvette will be over $100,000 easy. Which is why it should be a Cadillac, Cadillac can support $100k pricing (or at least should be able to)

    Fallacy argument as the Z06 (as well the last gen. ZR1) are $100K and GM had no problem selling them. A mid engine will not change that.

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    A mid-engine supercar should be a Cadillac.  Why mess with the Corvette formula that has worked for 60 years.  They also aren't going to draw in younger buyers with the price point of a mid-engine car.  Look at the Alfa 4C, that is the cheapest mid-engine car on sale and it is about $65k with a 230 hp 4 cylinder.   A mid-engine Corvette will be over $100,000 easy.  Which is why it should be a Cadillac, Cadillac can support $100k pricing (or at least should be able to)

     

     

    I don't like U.. but I have to agree. I think the current config of Corvettes is enough. The Mid-Engine should debut as a Cadillac.. and if then.. GM sees fit for amortized return.. that the Chevy brand gets a "ZR1" with this set-up fine. But then, I think it will be high time for Corvette to pack its bags and go on its own as a bonafide brand. CUV and all. 

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    Well here is the deal. I have been saying much of this for a good while as much of this information has been right there infront of us and so many are not picking it up.

    Here are the clues. 

    The Age thing is real and has been discussed and even tinkered with using a cheaper version of a roadster. This was talked about much in the last 10 years. 

    The talk of a mid engine car was open back in 2007 but the bankruptcy killed the talk and it went back to Front engine. Lutz has now confirmed this. Talk all along was the C7 was mid engine and changed. Then Lutz came out and said he had to veto it for the time. Tadge said he could not get more out of the car unless they had a mid engine. Lutz said they added to the wheel base of the C7 to move the engine back a coupe inches to get more handling. 

     

    The C8 was and has been in development right along with the C7. They slowed it down but never stopped it. 

    Talk was they even looked into doing a car with the ability to support both mid and front engine in a modular form. 

     

    It was stated about two years ago that the plan was to keep the C7 for a while and bring the C8 out as the high end car and then move to cheaper forms of it over time to replace the C7. 

    Anyone remember the mystery new Malibu with the engine in the back seat and C7 wheels with a trans axle showing. It also sported C7 flags. It was not a photo shop it was a mule easter egg to anyone paying attention. 

    Note it came around the time the GT was announced.

     

    Anyone remember the Holden Ute Mule. It was seen right before the GT was shown at Detroit. Nothing like this happens by accident.

    The recent photos we got around Le Mans time was no accident either, My friend at GM said they know where they can be seen and only go to those places when they want to be seen at Warren.  

    There have been reports of a Corvette testing 1,000 HP but they are having trouble putting it to the ground. They will not use more than they can put down. The present car limits out around 700-750 HP and more does not make it better. 

     

    As for Cadillac JDN stated clearly he holds an interest in this platform but he said they can not get to it before 2025. He has all his man power and Money focused on what Cadillac is best known for luxruy SUV, CUV and Sedans. He has a lot of work to do in getting the line to where it need to be before dumping money into a low volume low profit halo car that would attract attention to the new models. Chevy is the best known MFG of mid engine sports cars and never even made one for production yet. 

     

    Word of late is they will by the time the C7 dies will have a $70K mid engine car available. By then it will be 2021 and that price jives. Also by then they could have a smaller Stingray on a new platform to take over the lower price range and share that platform for a nice little BMW GT roadster for Cadillac. JDN said more than one sports car could be looked at in the future. 

    For Cadillac to do another big buck sports car now will only end up like the XLR and be a fair new car but a great used car with the killer value drops. My buddy loves his XLRv he bought with low miles for $35K. It would take a fool to think Cadillac should do a mid engine before they get house in order. They have a slew of SUV models as well a second gen ATS and CTS to do and a CT8. Not to mention they have a V8 and other engines also to do. 

     

    When you think luxury sedans do you think Corvette? When you think great sports cars do you think Cadillac? If you do not get that ask for help. 

     

    Even at Audi JDN got the line up right before he did the R8. Hell they bought Lambo before they did the R8. Let Chevy carry the load here and then they can do it as a proper Cadillac later on much more economically for the low numbers they will sell at the price it will be at. 

     

    There has been many more things floating around. there was a cut up C6 in California when all this started back about 9 years ago with MFG plates. Another Easter Egg. GM and the Vette team are great at keep secrets but they love to leave clues when they want to. 

     

    Lets put it this way the C7 was tested under a C6 and gave little clue. The C6 was tested under a Camaro body it gave little clue. What you see now is what they want you to see. 

     

    The C7 recently seen is the last high end track model. It will have a large wing in the back like the Z 28 and it will hold 725-750 HP. It will be the send off of the ZR1 till the Mid Engine arrives. While it may be more powerful it will use ever trick to put the power to the ground. The Z06 now relies much on the computer and even now it holds as much power as it can use. The extra tricks will give the new car more down force and more grip. That is the only way it will go faster around a track. 

    I have followed this for at least 8 years and seen much of this unfold. It has been tough as so many did not want to believe it but this stuff has been going on the whole time. Yes GM is quiet but this was not the best kept secret if you know who to listen to. 

    As for a Corvette SUV you have to be kidding!  Chevy has a line of SUV models and does not need a Corvette one. Porsche and the others need it because they do not have even a truck line let alone a SUV. They are just there for the easy money of a SUV. Chevy already has that. 

    Now if you want to market the Corvette name then take a Tahoe and place an full time AWD system on it and a Supercharged LT engine in it. Then call it a Tahoe GS as in grand sport. Then tag it Tahoe by Corvette Engineering. Let the Corvette guys do the tuning and sell a hand full at a high price. This way you market the Corvette name but you really do not call it a Corvette. You leverage the name but you do not damage it. 

    Work smarter not harder!

    Edited by hyperv6
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    Well here is the deal. I have been saying much of this for a good while as much of this information has been right there infront of us and so many are not picking it up.

    Here are the clues. 

    The Age thing is real and has been discussed and even tinkered with using a cheaper version of a roadster. This was talked about much in the last 10 years. 

    The talk of a mid engine car was open back in 2007 but the bankruptcy killed the talk and it went back to Front engine. Lutz has now confirmed this. Talk all along was the C7 was mid engine and changed. Then Lutz came out and said he had to veto it for the time. Tadge said he could not get more out of the car unless they had a mid engine. Lutz said they added to the wheel base of the C7 to move the engine back a coupe inches to get more handling. 

     

    The C8 was and has been in development right along with the C7. They slowed it down but never stopped it. 

    Talk was they even looked into doing a car with the ability to support both mid and front engine in a modular form. 

     

    It was stated about two years ago that the plan was to keep the C7 for a while and bring the C8 out as the high end car and then move to cheaper forms of it over time to replace the C7. 

    Anyone remember the mystery new Malibu with the engine in the back seat and C7 wheels with a trans axle showing. It also sported C7 flags. It was not a photo shop it was a mule easter egg to anyone paying attention. 

    Note it came around the time the GT was announced.

     

    Anyone remember the Holden Ute Mule. It was seen right before the GT was shown at Detroit. Nothing like this happens by accident.

    The recent photos we got around Le Mans time was no accident either, My friend at GM said they know where they can be seen and only go to those places when they want to be seen at Warren.  

    There have been reports of a Corvette testing 1,000 HP but they are having trouble putting it to the ground. They will not use more than they can put down. The present car limits out around 700-750 HP and more does not make it better. 

     

    As for Cadillac JDN stated clearly he holds an interest in this platform but he said they can not get to it before 2025. He has all his man power and Money focused on what Cadillac is best known for luxruy SUV, CUV and Sedans. He has a lot of work to do in getting the line to where it need to be before dumping money into a low volume low profit halo car that would attract attention to the new models. Chevy is the best known MFG of mid engine sports cars and never even made one for production yet. 

     

    Word of late is they will by the time the C7 dies will have a $70K mid engine car available. By then it will be 2021 and that price jives. Also by then they could have a smaller Stingray on a new platform to take over the lower price range and share that platform for a nice little BMW GT roadster for Cadillac. JDN said more than one sports car could be looked at in the future. 

    For Cadillac to do another big buck sports car now will only end up like the XLR and be a fair new car but a great used car with the killer value drops. My buddy loves his XLRv he bought with low miles for $35K. It would take a fool to think Cadillac should do a mid engine before they get house in order. They have a slew of SUV models as well a second gen ATS and CTS to do and a CT8. Not to mention they have a V8 and other engines also to do. 

     

    When you think luxury sedans do you think Corvette? When you think great sports cars do you think Cadillac? If you do not get that ask for help. 

     

    Even at Audi JDN got the line up right before he did the R8. Hell they bought Lambo before they did the R8. Let Chevy carry the load here and then they can do it as a proper Cadillac later on much more economically for the low numbers they will sell at the price it will be at. 

     

    There has been many more things floating around. there was a cut up C6 in California when all this started back about 9 years ago with MFG plates. Another Easter Egg. GM and the Vette team are great at keep secrets but they love to leave clues when they want to. 

     

    Lets put it this way the C7 was tested under a C6 and gave little clue. The C6 was tested under a Camaro body it gave little clue. What you see now is what they want you to see. 

     

    The C7 recently seen is the last high end track model. It will have a large wing in the back like the Z 28 and it will hold 725-750 HP. It will be the send off of the ZR1 till the Mid Engine arrives. While it may be more powerful it will use ever trick to put the power to the ground. The Z06 now relies much on the computer and even now it holds as much power as it can use. The extra tricks will give the new car more down force and more grip. That is the only way it will go faster around a track. 

    I have followed this for at least 8 years and seen much of this unfold. It has been tough as so many did not want to believe it but this stuff has been going on the whole time. Yes GM is quiet but this was not the best kept secret if you know who to listen to. 

    As for a Corvette SUV you have to be kidding!  Chevy has a line of SUV models and does not need a Corvette one. Porsche and the others need it because they do not have even a truck line let alone a SUV. They are just there for the easy money of a SUV. Chevy already has that. 

    Now if you want to market the Corvette name then take a Tahoe and place an full time AWD system on it and a Supercharged LT engine in it. Then call it a Tahoe GS as in grand sport. Then tag it Tahoe by Corvette Engineering. Let the Corvette guys do the tuning and sell a hand full at a high price. This way you market the Corvette name but you really do not call it a Corvette. You leverage the name but you do not damage it. 

    Work smarter not harder!

    Just seeing the words "Corvette" and "CUV" in the same sentence is enough to make one vomit.

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    A mid-engine supercar should be a Cadillac. Why mess with the Corvette formula that has worked for 60 years. They also aren't going to draw in younger buyers with the price point of a mid-engine car. Look at the Alfa 4C, that is the cheapest mid-engine car on sale and it is about $65k with a 230 hp 4 cylinder. A mid-engine Corvette will be over $100,000 easy. Which is why it should be a Cadillac, Cadillac can support $100k pricing (or at least should be able to)

    Fallacy argument as the Z06 (as well the last gen. ZR1) are $100K and GM had no problem selling them. A mid engine will not change that.

    What percentage of Corvette sales were ZR1? A mid-engine Corvette base model could be priced where the ZR1 was. A mid-engine ZR1 could be $200,000. Way too high for what is supposed to be the "affordable" sports car.

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    The current Z06 gets ripped sometimes because it has too much power and can't get the power down or use it. Personally I don't think any Chevy needs more than 500 HP, maybe 550 for the range topping Camaro and Corvette. For performance above that there is Cadillac. Cadillac V-series should be the pinnacle of GM performance.

    I would go the other way with the Corvette and release a V6 model at $49,995. Even with the 335 HP V6 and 8-speed it would still be 0-60 in 5 seconds, the Corvette doesn't weigh that much, and it would probably be lighter and better handling than the V8 model. This makes the Corvette more attainable, which is what it is supposed to be.

    Really no Chevy should cost over $75,000 either, again Cadillac should have the $75,000 plus cars.

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    Personally I don't think any Chevy needs more than 500 HP, maybe 550 for the range topping Camaro and Corvette. For performance above that there is Cadillac. Cadillac V-series should be the pinnacle of GM performance.

    You're looking at the picture thru a corporate lense, not a brand lense.

    Think back when the collective of brands (under GM) all (except Cadillac) fielded 350-400 HP A-Body performance cars. That's where GM needs to go. 

    In other words, properly identified & delineated, both Chevrolet & Cadillac can successfully field 650 HP (or whatever power level you want to mention) vehicles.

    If they "cannot", why have more than 1 brand??

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    The current Z06 gets ripped sometimes because it has too much power and can't get the power down or use it. Personally I don't think any Chevy needs more than 500 HP, maybe 550 for the range topping Camaro and Corvette. For performance above that there is Cadillac. Cadillac V-series should be the pinnacle of GM performance.

    I would go the other way with the Corvette and release a V6 model at $49,995. Even with the 335 HP V6 and 8-speed it would still be 0-60 in 5 seconds, the Corvette doesn't weigh that much, and it would probably be lighter and better handling than the V8 model. This makes the Corvette more attainable, which is what it is supposed to be.

    Really no Chevy should cost over $75,000 either, again Cadillac should have the $75,000 plus cars.

     

     

    That is just it you don't think!

     

    From  what I have been hearing the Corvette will carry on as a C7 along with a C8. Then by 2021 we will see a change over to a cheaper Mid engine version to replace the C7 at around $70K. 

    Now unlike the Ford GT the C8 will be built in in greater numbers and prove to be more profitable as it is not just some limited race car converted for the street. Even in low numbers the C8 will make money and then the variations with different engines and different options like AWD will come with the car. 

     

    No one needs a Veryon with over 1,000 HP but people buy them. 

    The truth is the Corvette to continue to compete with some of the best cars needs a platform that can take and really use the added power. 

    This car is targeting Ferrari and Mclaren as these are what has been seen at the Warren proving grounds at building 54. 

     

    The future is going to get more difficult to build cars like these. It is clear the Corvette will need to get lighter and more efficient. Lutz stated a hybrid system was being looked at that could move the cars MPG rating to over 50 MPG with only a $1300 battery.  

     

    One must look at the C7 ,as the end of an era as they have mined as much gold as they can. With the coming regulations and coming competition the C8 is only the stepping off point to all sorts of future potential, 

    the other factor the Corvette as it is has always been joked as being an old mans car. Yet even in my area I see expensive Ferrari and Mclarens driven by young dot com guys. 

    Chevy wants to only improve the product while still offering what they have in the past the most bang for the buck. Also they want to reach out to other buyers as it will take all hands on deck to compete. 

    Chevy made the same mistake remaining stagnate with the C3 for way too long. They paid a great price for that over the years. Today they have rebuilt the  Corvette from the weak powered Vega steering wheeled car. 

    We also need to keep in mind one major factor the Corvette regardless of how many they sell needs to remain profitable. The low volume models like the ZR1 make a sh&T load of money even at 1400 models. This pays the bills when the regular car like the C6 was only selling 13K units. 

     

    I trust Mark and Tadge much more than some here. Both have a winning record for product and performance. I think they both will go down as some of the best guardians of the Corvette since Zora. 

     

    Hmm someday because of them GM may build a Corvette Tadge?

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    VW lost like $2 million per car on every Veyron sold.  The Chiron will lose money also, but they don't care it is basically a marketing piece for them.  I am not opposed to GM making a money losing hyper car, but it shouldn't be a Corvette.

     

    I also don't think the Corvette needs more capabilty or speed.  I go back to my Miata example, they hold the price at an affordable level.  Back in the late 90s or 2000 a Corvette was about $40,000, and a Cadillac Seville or Deville was about that.  Now the Cadillacs are like $46k, but the Corvette is $60k.  They are losing the bang for the buck argument when they want to charge $70k for a Stingray or $100k for a Z06.

     

    I still think Corvette should be a $50-80k car, sort of in Porsche Boxster price range.  I'd like to see a V6 Corvette to hold the price point to mid 2000s level.

     

    I also think there is room for a sports car above Corvette at GM, just at Cadilac.

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    What is funny is the new Corvette is supposed to be a high revving DOHC V8 too.  For years Corvette owners said the pushrod was better, the Ferrari style high revving V8 mid-engine cars were over priced or not as good.  Now Corvette fans are getting their version of an Auri R8 or Ferrari 488 or McLaren 570.

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    What is funny is the new Corvette is supposed to be a high revving DOHC V8 too.  For years Corvette owners said the pushrod was better, the Ferrari style high revving V8 mid-engine cars were over priced or not as good.  Now Corvette fans are getting their version of an Auri R8 or Ferrari 488 or McLaren 570.

    Links please, I have not found anything but rumors and would love to read if there is true information that GM is moving the Corvette to DOHC V8 engines. The weight gain would go against the weight loss they have been doing while still getting amazing performance out of the Pushrod V8.

     

    OK, My bad,

     

    Did not realize Corvette started in 1990 to offer a standard OHV V8 and a DOHC V8.

     

    http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/corvette/history/

     

    Interesting to see the history line of what came when on Corvettes from the very beginning of their time line.

     

    2nd update, really interesting going through the history, so in 1997 with the new model they dropped all engines and came out with the new 5.7 aluminum block. Since then they have had various sizes of the single in block came OHV engines making amazing HP and Torque. So we are then back to the rumors only of a DOHC Turbo V8.

     

    This from GM that talks about their silky smooth 335HP V6 yet only 283 Lbs of Torque just confirms for me that DOHC is no big deal.

     

    http://www.gm.com/mol/m-2015-may-2016-camaro-0516-camaro-powertrains.html

     

    One might as well just go turbo 4 or V8 and not waste time with the fat, over weight under torque DOHC V6.

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    VW lost like $2 million per car on every Veyron sold.  The Chiron will lose money also, but they don't care it is basically a marketing piece for them.  I am not opposed to GM making a money losing hyper car, but it shouldn't be a Corvette.

     

    I also don't think the Corvette needs more capabilty or speed.  I go back to my Miata example, they hold the price at an affordable level.  Back in the late 90s or 2000 a Corvette was about $40,000, and a Cadillac Seville or Deville was about that.  Now the Cadillacs are like $46k, but the Corvette is $60k.  They are losing the bang for the buck argument when they want to charge $70k for a Stingray or $100k for a Z06.

     

    I still think Corvette should be a $50-80k car, sort of in Porsche Boxster price range.  I'd like to see a V6 Corvette to hold the price point to mid 2000s level.

     

    I also think there is room for a sports car above Corvette at GM, just at Cadilac.

    They are not losing the bang for the buck argument when you realize what it competes against. You clearly do not get that while you continue to beat this dead horse about price.

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    For years Corvette owners said the pushrod was better...

    Valve actuation would be a point of contention if the current Corvette engine wasn't competitive.

    460/465, 0-60: 3.8, 1/4-mile in 12.2.

    But it is.

    Or in other words, valve actuation is a moot point.

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    VW lost like $2 million per car on every Veyron sold.  The Chiron will lose money also, but they don't care it is basically a marketing piece for them.  I am not opposed to GM making a money losing hyper car, but it shouldn't be a Corvette.

     

    I also don't think the Corvette needs more capabilty or speed.  I go back to my Miata example, they hold the price at an affordable level.  Back in the late 90s or 2000 a Corvette was about $40,000, and a Cadillac Seville or Deville was about that.  Now the Cadillacs are like $46k, but the Corvette is $60k.  They are losing the bang for the buck argument when they want to charge $70k for a Stingray or $100k for a Z06.

     

    I still think Corvette should be a $50-80k car, sort of in Porsche Boxster price range.  I'd like to see a V6 Corvette to hold the price point to mid 2000s level.

     

    I also think there is room for a sports car above Corvette at GM, just at Cadilac.

     

    One person I spoke to said the target price was $170K for the first model. The others will fall in below it over time. One report stated that they were targeting a base model at $70K at some point. By 2021 that would make sense. 

     

    Just as the other changed that shook the Vette world like removing the pop up lamps for better lights and less weight. The square tail lamps and other changes have all led to higher sales and better cars. At first half hate it and half love it in the end 95% love it and they pick up more than the 5% they lost. 

    First the Corvette is not a Veyron. Second it is not even a Ford GT. 

     

    The Corvette even if it is to go mid engine will offer a top line but over time it will evolve to a mid engine that present owner can afford for a price adjusted price for the economic reasons. 

     

    The Corvette will continue to challenge some of the greatest cars at a price more than half the others. No goofy limited cars like the GT that were built to race more than street drive and it will sell more in a couple weeks than others sell in a year or two. 

    I think while the first model will be a world killing car it will do so at half the price of a Ford GT in a volume 4 times what the Ford is.  Second it will in time bring us a cheaper model that will be fully capable and still afford able to anyone who could afford a stingray today. 

     

    There has been nohting on a DOHC engine yet or even a Turbo V6 yet. Odds are it will be a higher powered version of the coming ZR1 engine that will find its way to this car that will top the Ford and others by at least 100-200 HP. 

    The bottom line is this car will make money or GM would never approve the business case. The Corvette does not get a free pass as some like the Veyron does. 

     

    This will be a Corvette and it will do as it has by setting performance and prices to its standard not the others. 

     

    If people will line up to pay $400K for a Ford I am sure GM will easily fine many buyers at $170k for a car with more performance and is a better street car. 

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    It would take a fool to think Cadillac should do a mid engine before they get house in order. They have a slew of SUV models as well a second gen ATS and CTS to do and a CT8. Not to mention they have a V8 and other engines also to do. 

     

    When you think luxury sedans do you think Corvette? When you think great sports cars do you think Cadillac? If you do not get that ask for help. 

     

    Even at Audi JDN got the line up right before he did the R8. Hell they bought Lambo before they did the R8. Let Chevy carry the load here and then they can do it as a proper Cadillac later on much more economically for the low numbers they will sell at the price it will be at. 

     

    When I thought of Cadillac just a decade ago I would have never imagined that they would have, let alone I would buy a 650HP sedan from them capable of murdering Porsches and Vettes in almost ever dynamic. Times change.. and even though I have zero issue with Corvette having a Mid-Engine vehicle sold next to the front engine one.. I do have an issue with it coming in at a probably $100K while Cadillac gets none. Hell I don't even really have an issue with a simultaneous release. If the vehicle development is done, then that only really leaves body stamping, marketing and a few other things. If Corvette is going to be a BRAND, and sold under the Cadillac experience.... then different story. But truth is CHEVY simply does not have the capability within its own dealerships to even service the Corvette.. hell Tahoe/Subur clientel its gets in a way that is befitting one capable of buying a $60K+ weekend toy, let alone another $100K + one. Besides.. if they aren't even gonna show until 2018, there is plenty of time for Cadillac to be ready to sell them

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    As for a Corvette SUV you have to be kidding!  Chevy has a line of SUV models and does not need a Corvette one. Porsche and the others need it because they do not have even a truck line let alone a SUV. They are just there for the easy money of a SUV. Chevy already has that. 

    Now if you want to market the Corvette name then take a Tahoe and place an full time AWD system on it and a Supercharged LT engine in it. Then call it a Tahoe GS as in grand sport. Then tag it Tahoe by Corvette Engineering. Let the Corvette guys do the tuning and sell a hand full at a high price. This way you market the Corvette name but you really do not call it a Corvette. You leverage the name but you do not damage it. 

    Work smarter not harder!

     

     

    No. I am in no way speaking of full size SUVs. I said CUV.. like the Cayenne and Macan. I am thinking that Alpha and Omega modified would serve Cadillac and Vette brands perfectly. Lets be clear.. there isn't much shared in Corvette and Impalas anymore. The ATS and CTS seem more like Corvettes than anything at Chevy sides the Camaro. Even with that.. only a percentage of Camaro buyers get the SS. The Corvette brand is sold under Chevy because of tradition. Its not even a cost thing anymore, because seriously.. how many people do U kno who can go out an buy a $60-100K weekend toy like its a CHEVY made product? Time for Corvette to grow up. Cadillac dealerships would be the perfect place for them. 

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    Just seeing the words "Corvette" and "CUV" in the same sentence is enough to make one vomit.

     

     

     

    Yeah.. but under the new Platform policies being put into place.. I'd rather see Corvette CUV then R.I.P Corvette. Anyway.. Porsche fans felt the same before 2002. Avg 1300 sales a month later since.. and investment money to produce better Porsches.. they shut their effin mouths. Oh.. did I mention a Corvette Family Sedan too.. to compete with the 500 avg per month sales of the Panamera? :neenerneener:

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    I don't think "Corvette" could be a brand, however I could get behind the idea of the Corvette moving to Cadillac. The interior would have to get better and some styling tweaks, but a V6 could be the base car with the better interior to keep price where it is, and add V8s and still have $60-100k price point, which makes sense for a Cadillac.

    I doubt they will do that, but the Corvette is becoming like the Nissan GT-R, who wants to pay $100k for a Nissan, wouldn't it be better as an Infiniti?

    Chevy should have affordable sports cars. The Malibu isn't $55k so why is a Camaro? This is why GM has brands, for value, middle and high end.

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    Just seeing the words "Corvette" and "CUV" in the same sentence is enough to make one vomit.

     

     

    Yeah.. but under the new Platform policies being put into place.. I'd rather see Corvette CUV then R.I.P Corvette. Anyway.. Porsche fans felt the same before 2002. Avg 1300 sales a month later since.. and investment money to produce better Porsches.. they shut their effin mouths. Oh.. did I mention a Corvette Family Sedan too.. to compete with the 500 avg per month sales of the Panamera? :neenerneener:

    The Corvette isn't going anywhere and they damn sure don't need to stamp the name on a CUV.

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    No need for a Corvette CUV, that would be a bad idea.  Cadillac should be fighting the Porsche Macan and Cayenne, and BMW X5 M, and AMG crossovers.  If you want to throw Tesla in the mix, Cadillac should be going after them too.

    Edited by smk4565
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    Chevy should have affordable sports cars. The Malibu isn't $55k so why is a Camaro? This is why GM has brands, for value, middle and high end.

    Again: erroneous. You are saying all Chevy models should be in a tight price range, why??? Because; Buick? 

    Irrelevant.

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    Chevy should have affordable sports cars. The Malibu isn't $55k so why is a Camaro? This is why GM has brands, for value, middle and high end.

    Again: erroneous. You are saying all Chevy models should be in a tight price range, why??? Because; Buick? 

    Irrelevant.

     

    Not all Chevy's need to be in a tight range, but Chevy should be focused on value and building a fun sports car that regular people can afford.  

     

    In year 2000, a Corvette had a price of $39,280 and not a huge options list to drive it into the stratosphere.  The Cadillac Deville had a price of $39,895.  Inflation at 2.15% since 2000 would mean $39k then is $55k now.  So the Corvette base model has gone with inflation, but the higher trims push it way above where it was.  A 2000 Cadillac SLS was $44,000, $5k more than a Corvette.  Now a base Corvette is more than a Cadillac CT6.  Cadillacs used to cost more than Corvettes.

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    It would take a fool to think Cadillac should do a mid engine before they get house in order. They have a slew of SUV models as well a second gen ATS and CTS to do and a CT8. Not to mention they have a V8 and other engines also to do. 

     

    When you think luxury sedans do you think Corvette? When you think great sports cars do you think Cadillac? If you do not get that ask for help. 

     

    Even at Audi JDN got the line up right before he did the R8. Hell they bought Lambo before they did the R8. Let Chevy carry the load here and then they can do it as a proper Cadillac later on much more economically for the low numbers they will sell at the price it will be at. 

     

    When I thought of Cadillac just a decade ago I would have never imagined that they would have, let alone I would buy a 650HP sedan from them capable of murdering Porsches and Vettes in almost ever dynamic. Times change.. and even though I have zero issue with Corvette having a Mid-Engine vehicle sold next to the front engine one.. I do have an issue with it coming in at a probably $100K while Cadillac gets none. Hell I don't even really have an issue with a simultaneous release. If the vehicle development is done, then that only really leaves body stamping, marketing and a few other things. If Corvette is going to be a BRAND, and sold under the Cadillac experience.... then different story. But truth is CHEVY simply does not have the capability within its own dealerships to even service the Corvette.. hell Tahoe/Subur clientel its gets in a way that is befitting one capable of buying a $60K+ weekend toy, let alone another $100K + one. Besides.. if they aren't even gonna show until 2018, there is plenty of time for Cadillac to be ready to sell them

     

    You do realize Cadillac already had a 2 seat Supercharges sports car based on a Corvette that failed miserably. How many times does a divison need to beat its head into the wall before they learn they have to earn their place with their other models before they use a expensive halo to draw attraction. 

    You get the Rest of the line right and then you do the halo car but to do it now will only bring out the issues they already have. Let JDN get the cars he wants in place in the next 5-10 years and then you promote the other cars with a Halo. 

    You do realize Corvette has had two cars selling for nearly $120K with no issues to this point. The ZR1 was just over if loaded and the Z06 now is around $108K with another model coming to take it to over $120 again. Chevy will sell it in numbers as they expect with no issue.

    Come on you really know better than that Cadillac could start today and have a car and I mean a well sorted proper car ready by 2018. Hell they are taking 5+ years alone for the cars they want now.  

     

    If you bring a Mid Engine Cadillac out now it will fail as badly as the XLR and XLRv and would be found on used car lots for $35K just as the last two seat cars they did are. 

     

    Cadillac would  be much better off with a small Roadster GT much like the lower priced BMW models and then work their way up when they have proven they can build a proper Sports Car. To this point Cadillac has never built a proper sports car and you are now expecting people to plop down $170K for one? 

    Chevy can get away with it as they can easily find 2000-3000 Corvette Collectors a year that will buy one just because they have all the other  models. I work wit a couple now that as soon as a new model is out it is on their buy list. Ferrari see's the same thing. 

     

    I have no issue with Cadillac having a mid engine but first get your act together at Cadillac and fix the other lines so there are no compromises and no it is a great car but. When you finally have vehicles that can dominate all segments then you promote it. To do it now is a waste of time and money. 

    While Corvette will remain a part of Chevy at least in NA it is an entity to itself. People who want to see it as a Chevy see it that way but those who just want to see it as a Corvette see it that way. Just as Ferrari is its own yet it is also Fiat too. We may not see that in America but Europe they do, Same with Porsche it is it's own brand but yet it is a VW product. No MFG is a island. Even Bugatti is a VW product. 

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    One big problem with the XLR is it was less powerful and slower than the Corvette, yet $25,000 more.  The other issue is they wanted to go directly against the Mercedes SL, and the Allante failed at that, Jaguar XK failed, Lexus SC failed, etc.  No car survived, the SL is the last luxury roadster left.

     

    Audi never made a proper sports car before they made the R8, Acura was a car company for about 4 years when they launched the NSX.   Cadillac just has to dive in and stay the course.  Instead of GM pumping more and more money into making expensive Chevys, they should put those resources toward Cadillac.

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    One big problem with the XLR is it was less powerful and slower than the Corvette, yet $25,000 more.  The other issue is they wanted to go directly against the Mercedes SL, and the Allante failed at that, Jaguar XK failed, Lexus SC failed, etc.  No car survived, the SL is the last luxury roadster left.

     

    Audi never made a proper sports car before they made the R8, Acura was a car company for about 4 years when they launched the NSX.   Cadillac just has to dive in and stay the course.  Instead of GM pumping more and more money into making expensive Chevys, they should put those resources toward Cadillac.

    They are pumping plenty into Cadillac, hence the discussion about CUVs a few weeks ago. Perhaps you forgot about that. Once they get that lineup in place, then I think the bigger stuff will follow. You are trying to put the cart before the horse with what you're suggesting. There is also nothing wrong with "expensive Chevys", unless you are a worried German automaker that is scared of little old Chevy killing you.

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    GM is already developing a mid-engine sports car, the money is already being spent.  Without question that should be a Cadillac.  The best engineering, the best styling, the best performing cars GM makes should be Cadillacs.  

     

    It isn't like I am saying stop development work on the next Equinox, Cruze or Malibu which are volume products that GM has to have, and divert resources to a Cadillac vanity project.  In this case GM is already spending the time and money on a mid-engine car, giving it to Cadillac doesn't mean Chevy can't get a new crossover or sedan to market.  

     

    The price escalation of the Camaro and Corvette is sort of like the size creep that occurs with Focus, Fusion, Cruze, Malibu.  As those cars get bigger and more and more equipment, it pushes them against the Taurus and Impala, and basically the Taurus and Impala will be gone around 2020 so we can have $30,000 Malibus and Fusions. 

     

    There is proof in the pudding too, the CTS used to sell 50-60,000 units a year, then they desired to make it bigger and more expensive in gen 2, and bigger and more expensive in gen 3, in the meantime killing the STS (their range topper at the time).  So now you have what was the entry level CTS as the mid-level Cadillac and sales are about 15,000 a year.  60,000 down to 15,000.   

     

    By 2020, I would not be surprised if the cheapest V8 Camaro is $48,000 and the cheapest V6 is $38,000 with the base car being $31k.   I am not buying a Camaro so I don't care, but by 2020 they'll be selling 3,000 Camaros a month.  

    Edited by smk4565
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    The money is already spent on the Corvette. The Chevy line is pretty much in place with one to two generations of product on new platfroms. The last ones like the Nox and Traverse will be replaced soon. What better way to highlight the Chevy line than put a Mid Engine Corvette into the Show Room. 

    Cadillac is still 3 years away from JDN product. The cars they have are either not his work or old work that already needs upgraded as they did not get the attention they should have gotten. While the ATS and CTS are great cars mechanically they still need the details sweated out. The CT6 is a flag ship that is no longer a flag ship and really steps on the CTS. The lack of SUV models is costing them money and their volume. The flagship sedan is still 3 years away. 

    A DOHC engine is still not close to being done and would be a key element to any Cadillac Halo car. 

     

    Cadillac while much improved over what is and really a decent car is still not good enough. GM meddled with the cars too much and now with full autonomy Mark and JDN will get the cars they really wanted. 

    Note they want a sports car and the mid engine platform will be used but if you bring it out now what good would it do. Your product now is still not where it needs to be but the public see you spending money on a high end car that you have earned no creed to sell yet. 

     

    You build a CTS or ATS replacment that blows away any other MFG in class in all areas. You get people to buy it and then you will earn their trust to spend more money on bigger and better. 

     

    As it is now you would have to have a screw loose to spend $200K or more on a Cadillac that would be a total disaster in sales and profits. Why should anyone trust you on this car when they are taking major hits in resale on their sedans? 

     

    Even at Audi JDN did not do the R8 till they had their lines in order. Also they did not do it till VW bought out Lambo.  

     

    As for now Let the company with over 50 plus years of selling one of the most successful sports cars in the world sell this car and let Cadillac work to regain their heritage of building the best sedans in the world and other related models to get their image to where they are seen as a creditable provider of a world class sports car. 

     

    You can dress the part but if you want to be taken seriously you need to be able to do what you claim you can do. 

    To this point Cadillac has failed at every sports car they have built. You do it again at this point you will see failure #3. Build a small BMW challanger for $60K Twin Turbo Six on a Alpha or even a Sub Alpha platform Make it with a trunk you can travel a week end on and make it a convertible. Add world class ride and handling and earn a reputation on a model at a price worth taking a chance on. 

     

    I am not sure what is worse someone spending $200K on a new Cadillac sports car in the next 5 years or them even considering producing one. 

    Well I think we are safe as JDN like the mid engine Idea but said we can not even consider it till 2025. He knows already where all the budget and man power is going and it is going to the blocks that will build Cadillac up. 

    Image take time, effort and investment to earn. You can not just get it back on one of 500 expensive model even if it is the worlds most perfect car. 

     

    Just look at Ford now. They will get some bounce from the GT but it will vanish fast in a  year or so. The money would have been better off in a car at a higher volume like the original GT or even better yet the Mustang. 

    Even calling the GT a Lincoln would have done nothing for the car or Lincoln. 

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    GM is already developing a mid-engine sports car, the money is already being spent.  Without question that should be a Cadillac.  The best engineering, the best styling, the best performing cars GM makes should be Cadillacs.  

     

    It isn't like I am saying stop development work on the next Equinox, Cruze or Malibu which are volume products that GM has to have, and divert resources to a Cadillac vanity project.  In this case GM is already spending the time and money on a mid-engine car, giving it to Cadillac doesn't mean Chevy can't get a new crossover or sedan to market.  

     

    The price escalation of the Camaro and Corvette is sort of like the size creep that occurs with Focus, Fusion, Cruze, Malibu.  As those cars get bigger and more and more equipment, it pushes them against the Taurus and Impala, and basically the Taurus and Impala will be gone around 2020 so we can have $30,000 Malibus and Fusions. 

     

    There is proof in the pudding too, the CTS used to sell 50-60,000 units a year, then they desired to make it bigger and more expensive in gen 2, and bigger and more expensive in gen 3, in the meantime killing the STS (their range topper at the time).  So now you have what was the entry level CTS as the mid-level Cadillac and sales are about 15,000 a year.  60,000 down to 15,000.   

     

    By 2020, I would not be surprised if the cheapest V8 Camaro is $48,000 and the cheapest V6 is $38,000 with the base car being $31k.   I am not buying a Camaro so I don't care, but by 2020 they'll be selling 3,000 Camaros a month.  

     

    As it is now I drove a Camaro  the other day with a V6 that could be had for right at $30K. It may not have been a LT2 package with a RS but it was a decent car that runs 13's all day. Good bang for the buck. 

     

     

    Anything with a v8 will be very expensive from this point on. That is the only way they can limit sales naturally. It is just plain common sense. If you want one you can have one if you are willing to pay. This is how they will force people to smaller engines. 

     

    As for prices even the Malibu will be around $40K by 2020 as prices will continue to rise. A premium now is already over $35K loaded. 

     

    But look now even in the truck market a V8 truck is tough to get with many options under $50K. 

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    I wanna chime in, but every time I want to, HYPER is there to say what I kinda wanna say, but he says it WAY BETTER than I EVER could!

     

    KEEP ON IT HYPER!

    WHAT YOU SAY ON THIS MATTER IS LOGICAL, SMART AND NO OTHER WAY FOR GM TO DO THINGS!

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    As far as Cadillac goes they have been trying to build their image since 1982, after the V8-6-4 fiasco.  And new competitive product has been "a couple years away" since the Allante was in development.  30 years later, still waiting for the product and image.

     

    Based on Hyper's reasoning, we are led to believe that people would not spend $200,000, or even perhaps $125,000, on a Cadillac sports car, that is bought and serviced at a Cadillac dealership, with Cadillac dealership amenities.  Yet that same buying public will spend $125,000 on a sports car at a Chevy dealership, and take it to the Chevy dealership to have it serviced by the same guy that works on Sonics and Cruzes.  

     

    Whether the mid-engine Corvette is $70,000, $100,000 or $200,000, the sales price of the car is pretty much set by how much it costs to develop and build it.  So if we just say, GM has made a $100k car called Zora and it has no logos or badges on it, which dealership should it be sold at?  The clear choice is Cadillac.

     

    This idea of the Corvette will compete with the World's best is ridiculous.  I just read the 2018 Aston Martin Vanquish will have a V12 with as much as 800 hp.  So does the Corvette need an 800 hp V12 now?  It isn't a Corvette if it costs $300,000, then it is just another crazy priced exotic that they make 500 a year of.

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    Yes Balthy.

     

    Especially when the Father of the Vette (Duntov) when he first raced the Vette in the late 1950s internationally WANTED the Vette to become mid-engined...

    Face it people....it is the Corvette's destiny to become mid-engined.

     

    Forget Cadillac.

    They need to focus on what Cadillac needs to be. Cadillac still has a long way to go to perfect that.

    The Vette is ripe RIGHT NOW to EVOLVE into the NEXT REALM of supercar stardom!

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    As far as Cadillac goes they have been trying to build their image since 1982, after the V8-6-4 fiasco.  And new competitive product has been "a couple years away" since the Allante was in development.  30 years later, still waiting for the product and image.

     

    Based on Hyper's reasoning, we are led to believe that people would not spend $200,000, or even perhaps $125,000, on a Cadillac sports car, that is bought and serviced at a Cadillac dealership, with Cadillac dealership amenities.  Yet that same buying public will spend $125,000 on a sports car at a Chevy dealership, and take it to the Chevy dealership to have it serviced by the same guy that works on Sonics and Cruzes.  

     

    Whether the mid-engine Corvette is $70,000, $100,000 or $200,000, the sales price of the car is pretty much set by how much it costs to develop and build it.  So if we just say, GM has made a $100k car called Zora and it has no logos or badges on it, which dealership should it be sold at?  The clear choice is Cadillac.

     

    This idea of the Corvette will compete with the World's best is ridiculous.  I just read the 2018 Aston Martin Vanquish will have a V12 with as much as 800 hp.  So does the Corvette need an 800 hp V12 now?  It isn't a Corvette if it costs $300,000, then it is just another crazy priced exotic that they make 500 a year of.

     

    You are now taking things out of context to support your argument. 

     

    First the past is just that the past. GM was going bankrupt since the late 70's and had been mismanaged. Today we can only compare post chapter 11 here as to the rebuilding. At first they got it wrong here but now they have finally given them the money they needed and the autonomy they demanded to make the cars they need to make. It is now just a matter of time till these models will prove if they got it right under JDN. Will he turn them? Not sure but at least he had the balls to say these cars are good but not good enough. Few in GM have been able to do that. 

     

    As for the Corvette you have to understand it is not just a Chevy not is it just a Corvette. The Car has become an icon and it was built, cared for and supported by Chevy. Like it or not the two are tied inside GM as much as it is with the public.  

    Now who in the hell can say well the Corvette is as good as we will let you make it. If these guys can put together a $170K car that performs better than a $500K car is that not what Chevy is all about? Best bank for the buck and a good value? 

     

    The owners have no issue going to the dealer now for their ZR1 models. 

    The Corvette is like Harley. They are the bike of choice of the rich the middle class and of many Americans. It is a symbol of success to some. It is a symbol of America to others and it is a life style for many. It is Americas car. 

    Few sports cars have lasted this long and few have remained relevant through tough times as well good. 

    To put it plain and simple you are not going to separate the Corvette from Chevy nor are you going to deny them from making a better and current competitive car for the market.

    My question is this. Ok you give Cadillac a damn Mid Engine. What is it going to do for Cadillac? Will it be a major profit center. Not really. I am sure they may make money but not a ton. Will it change the perception of the present cars. No as they need work and they need to prove themselves in the market.  Will it help Cadillac Image. Not really as so few will be sold most people will never see them. Also will Cadillac want to spend the money on a car in a race series that really does little to promote their core product Luxury cars. 

    The cards have been dealt. Sure Cadillac would be cool to be the older of this car but the the fact is they are not ready for it. Also they are not a sports car company and never really were. These are good image builders when you have your house in order. But how in the hell can you with a strait face say this is a good idea for them when they can't even move the ATS like it should be selling and yet have so much more work to do. 

    Now on the other hand as JDN said Cadillac heritage has been large and Luxury. They really are best represented by the large touring cars of the past many 4 door convertibles. How about a CT8 4 door Convertible with staggering presents to show what they are all about.This is where they came from and this is where their core product is going. 

     

    Trying to take Cadillac into the world of sports cars is very miss-leading at this point. 

     

    As for the NSX Honda had to create Acura here as no one took Honda serious. The Corvette has no limitation this way. The Corvette gets a free pass with the public because it is a Corvette and few cars earn that status. 

     

    Kind of like the 911 as it really was a VW based car for years with an odd styling. But because of the icon status it holds today even the new cars are made to look like it even though it is no longer the car it once was. 

     

    The simple fact is the new Corvette is not going to be 300-400K. Comments from the race team on the new Ford bear this out. Look for a car at first at  $170K and then it will trickle down to cheaper models over the following few years. 

    You need to consider this. Just because you move the engine to the back does not mean it has to be expensive. Just because others charge a lot Chevy has no reason to. The present car already is a transaxle car and this is a case of moving the cab forward of the engine. 

     

    Hell Toyota and Pontiac both made mid engine cars that sold for right at $10K. 

     

    As it is now the Corvette runs with cars in the $200K -400K bracket now. Moving the engine does not have to raise the price by $300K. 

     

    I thinks some folks will be eating their words when time passes. 

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    As far as Cadillac goes they have been trying to build their image since 1982, after the V8-6-4 fiasco. And new competitive product has been "a couple years away" since the Allante was in development. 30 years later, still waiting for the product and image.

    Based on Hyper's reasoning, we are led to believe that people would not spend $200,000, or even perhaps $125,000, on a Cadillac sports car, that is bought and serviced at a Cadillac dealership, with Cadillac dealership amenities. Yet that same buying public will spend $125,000 on a sports car at a Chevy dealership, and take it to the Chevy dealership to have it serviced by the same guy that works on Sonics and Cruzes.

    Whether the mid-engine Corvette is $70,000, $100,000 or $200,000, the sales price of the car is pretty much set by how much it costs to develop and build it. So if we just say, GM has made a $100k car called Zora and it has no logos or badges on it, which dealership should it be sold at? The clear choice is Cadillac.

    This idea of the Corvette will compete with the World's best is ridiculous. I just read the 2018 Aston Martin Vanquish will have a V12 with as much as 800 hp. So does the Corvette need an 800 hp V12 now? It isn't a Corvette if it costs $300,000, then it is just another crazy priced exotic that they make 500 a year of.

    You are now taking things out of context to support your argument.

    First the past is just that the past. GM was going bankrupt since the late 70's and had been mismanaged. Today we can only compare post chapter 11 here as to the rebuilding. At first they got it wrong here but now they have finally given them the money they needed and the autonomy they demanded to make the cars they need to make. It is now just a matter of time till these models will prove if they got it right under JDN. Will he turn them? Not sure but at least he had the balls to say these cars are good but not good enough. Few in GM have been able to do that.

    As for the Corvette you have to understand it is not just a Chevy not is it just a Corvette. The Car has become an icon and it was built, cared for and supported by Chevy. Like it or not the two are tied inside GM as much as it is with the public.

    Now who in the hell can say well the Corvette is as good as we will let you make it. If these guys can put together a $170K car that performs better than a $500K car is that not what Chevy is all about? Best bank for the buck and a good value?

    The owners have no issue going to the dealer now for their ZR1 models.

    The Corvette is like Harley. They are the bike of choice of the rich the middle class and of many Americans. It is a symbol of success to some. It is a symbol of America to others and it is a life style for many. It is Americas car.

    Few sports cars have lasted this long and few have remained relevant through tough times as well good.

    To put it plain and simple you are not going to separate the Corvette from Chevy nor are you going to deny them from making a better and current competitive car for the market.

    My question is this. Ok you give Cadillac a damn Mid Engine. What is it going to do for Cadillac? Will it be a major profit center. Not really. I am sure they may make money but not a ton. Will it change the perception of the present cars. No as they need work and they need to prove themselves in the market. Will it help Cadillac Image. Not really as so few will be sold most people will never see them. Also will Cadillac want to spend the money on a car in a race series that really does little to promote their core product Luxury cars.

    The cards have been dealt. Sure Cadillac would be cool to be the older of this car but the the fact is they are not ready for it. Also they are not a sports car company and never really were. These are good image builders when you have your house in order. But how in the hell can you with a strait face say this is a good idea for them when they can't even move the ATS like it should be selling and yet have so much more work to do.

    Now on the other hand as JDN said Cadillac heritage has been large and Luxury. They really are best represented by the large touring cars of the past many 4 door convertibles. How about a CT8 4 door Convertible with staggering presents to show what they are all about.This is where they came from and this is where their core product is going.

    Trying to take Cadillac into the world of sports cars is very miss-leading at this point.

    As for the NSX Honda had to create Acura here as no one took Honda serious. The Corvette has no limitation this way. The Corvette gets a free pass with the public because it is a Corvette and few cars earn that status.

    Kind of like the 911 as it really was a VW based car for years with an odd styling. But because of the icon status it holds today even the new cars are made to look like it even though it is no longer the car it once was.

    The simple fact is the new Corvette is not going to be 300-400K. Comments from the race team on the new Ford bear this out. Look for a car at first at $170K and then it will trickle down to cheaper models over the following few years.

    You need to consider this. Just because you move the engine to the back does not mean it has to be expensive. Just because others charge a lot Chevy has no reason to. The present car already is a transaxle car and this is a case of moving the cab forward of the engine.

    Hell Toyota and Pontiac both made mid engine cars that sold for right at $10K.

    As it is now the Corvette runs with cars in the $200K -400K bracket now. Moving the engine does not have to raise the price by $300K.

    I thinks some folks will be eating their words when time passes.

    Quite possibly the post of the year. Bravo hyper! Well said to say the least.

    Oh and thanks for making me miss my old MR2. Most fun for the buck car ever.

    Edited by surreal1272
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    Every mid-engine car in today's world is expensive.

     

    The Corvette has been front engine, rear drive for 60 years, why mess with what works.

     

    The Mercedes SL has sort of been the German equivalent to the Corvette Convertible, both came out in the 50s and have been going ever since.  The SL was mostly V8 or V12 since the early 70s (brief run of straight six in the early 90s) and they offer a V6 now since today's V6 makes the power of an early 2000s V8.  Bu they kept the car in the same segment with the same mission.  When time came for a hardcore sports car, they did the SLR, the SLS Gullwing, the AMG GT, they had a different car fulfill that mission.  They didn't throw away the SL's heritage or mission because they wanted to chase Ferrari all of a sudden.

     

    I would like to see a Corvette with a base V6 (maybe turbo) the V8 would be Stingray, and a 600 hp V8 could be Z06, $48-80k price range.  This would fulfill the purpose of the Corvette being the every man's performance car, being what it was in the 70s, 80s, 90s and early 2000s.   Make something else above Corvette if they want more.  Just like I think Cadillac should have an Omega SUV above Escalade that is high performance.  But they have drawn some line in the sand that Escalade is the top Cadillac, nothing can ever surpass it, even though it is built on a Chevy pick up truck chassis.

    Edited by smk4565
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    ...Corvette being the every man's performance car

    Where did you come up with that one? They were not priced like "everyman's" car, that's for sure… unless you mean every man wanted one. They've long been just about in Cadillac price ranges.

     

    And the SL absolutely changed it's mission; it was a stripped down, utilitarian car with crappy build & engineering quality for decades (it also had a straight 6 in the '50s, 60s and 70s)… now it's priced tremendously higher and is a loaded up, blingy luxury car when it originally was a sports car. (The '76 SL was $20K, by '89 (13 years later) it was $64K…. but WHO CARES??)

    At least I understand that singular automotive models DO change over time.

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    Every mid-engine car in today's world is expensive.

     

    The Corvette has been front engine, rear drive for 60 years, why mess with what works.

     

    The Mercedes SL has sort of been the German equivalent to the Corvette Convertible, both came out in the 50s and have been going ever since.  The SL was mostly V8 or V12 since the early 70s (brief run of straight six in the early 90s) and they offer a V6 now since today's V6 makes the power of an early 2000s V8.  Bu they kept the car in the same segment with the same mission.  When time came for a hardcore sports car, they did the SLR, the SLS Gullwing, the AMG GT, they had a different car fulfill that mission.  They didn't throw away the SL's heritage or mission because they wanted to chase Ferrari all of a sudden.

     

    I would like to see a Corvette with a base V6 (maybe turbo) the V8 would be Stingray, and a 600 hp V8 could be Z06, $48-80k price range.  This would fulfill the purpose of the Corvette being the every man's performance car, being what it was in the 70s, 80s, 90s and early 2000s.   Make something else above Corvette if they want more.  Just like I think Cadillac should have an Omega SUV above Escalade that is high performance.  But they have drawn some line in the sand that Escalade is the top Cadillac, nothing can ever surpass it, even though it is built on a Chevy pick up truck chassis.

     

    Does a mid engine car need to be expensive? No! 

    The only reason they are expensive is because they are built by companies that do not mass produce them in the first place. To earn a higher price they add many more expensive systems and materials that GM does not have to include if they are to mass produce them. 

    Second you can move forward in the market or you can remain stagnate and let the Corvette rot like it did in the late 70's. 

    As for Benz they took a different approach. They did not keep the same car they just made a different one. None of their true performance car lasted a decade. So unless Chevy wants to make a new car that would make no sense they need to change the one they have.

    The truth is you have an iconic name and you need to use it. You can make the Corvette in several versions and do just fine. 

    What you will get is a car that will have much more to offer in several models. Even the Mid engine model will be sold in time in a wide price range including one nearing $70K I would be shocked even if the top model cleared $250K in a all Carbon tub. 

     

    Hmm Omega SUV above Escalade that is high performance. Who said we will not see this. Who said the Escalade is top dog? There is so much unknown about Cadillac's future and it would be ignorant to count anything out at this point. 

    As for the SL and adding other cars why does Benz do this? Where in the hell else will they sell them? GM has more than one auto brand name and one that owns the Corvette literally and figuratively.  GM has options. 

     

    Their option is to let the Corvette have what it has been destine to have for decades at a price range not far from what we have already. And at some point when Cadillac is ready they can take it to levels Chevy will not tread. 

    Edited by hyperv6
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    ...Corvette being the every man's performance car

    Where did you come up with that one? They were not priced like "everyman's" car, that's for sure… unless you mean every man wanted one. They've long been just about in Cadillac price ranges.

     

    And the SL absolutely changed it's mission; it was a stripped down, utilitarian car with crappy build & engineering quality for decades (it also had a straight 6 in the '50s, 60s and 70s)… now it's priced tremendously higher and is a loaded up, blingy luxury car when it originally was a sports car. (The '76 SL was $20K, by '89 (13 years later) it was $64K…. but WHO CARES??)

    At least I understand that singular automotive models DO change over time.

     

     

     

    The Corvette is an every mans car in many ways but not in the way he put's it. 

    #1 There are few people who do not want one. 

     

    #2 the new ones are more affordable than most other sports cars. 

     

    #3 they are built in volumes that make it so where you can find some example on the used market in good shape that nearly anyone can afford them. 

    #4 they are still a car most people can work on and are supported with one of the strongest aftermarkets making them affordable to modify. 

     

    #5 they have a dealer support system that is unlike any other sports car even the Miata with more dealers than any of them that can easily fix anything. Often the parts are also in stock. 

    #6 while their prices do come down over the years they do appreciate in time no matter the year and model. Few drop to the levels of worthless because they remain a car that can be purchased with a blown engine and one that can be replace affordably. There are many SL and even Ferrari's that cost more to fix the rust or engine than they are worth. 

    The bottom line is the Corvette formula while more expensive today still holds to the true aspects of a car that most people can still own in some form or have a realistic dream to own. Too many even the ones that can afford a Ferrari can not afford the maintenance alone. 

     

    Harley has done the same thing. They are expensive today but yet most people can fine an example they can afford and most can be easily rebuilt and modified reasonably. This is why both Harley and Corvette have out lasted so many others over the years even with their past flaws. This formula worked then and it continues to work today. 

     

    I see the mid engine car as the Ferrari that many of us can afford or may own if not new maybe used one day. I can't say the same about an Ferrari, Lambo etc. 

     

    One may note that Mclaren has now got a lower priced model that is going to fit the affordable segment. Same for the new NSX. These cars are priced much lower and I expect Chevy to take the price even lower. $170K is realistic for base price and would be a lot of car for the money. In time once they go to a lower priced model to replace the C7 this will rattle the rest of the market. 

     

    Why will GM do it? Because they can with the Corvette. 

     

    Another thing too is if not for the Corvette Cadillac would never have enough volume to make a business case. Even if they did it would last maybe 3 years on its own losing money. If not for a Corvette version there would be no Corvette. Much like if there was No Lambo at VW there would likely be no R8.

     

    While his definition is not accurate the sentiment is true. 

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    ...Corvette being the every man's performance car

    Where did you come up with that one? They were not priced like "everyman's" car, that's for sure… unless you mean every man wanted one. They've long been just about in Cadillac price ranges.

     

    And the SL absolutely changed it's mission; it was a stripped down, utilitarian car with crappy build & engineering quality for decades (it also had a straight 6 in the '50s, 60s and 70s)… now it's priced tremendously higher and is a loaded up, blingy luxury car when it originally was a sports car. (The '76 SL was $20K, by '89 (13 years later) it was $64K…. but WHO CARES??)

    At least I understand that singular automotive models DO change over time.

     

    $20,000 in 1976 is $85,234 today.  A 2017 SL450 is $86,950.

     

    $64,000 in 1989 is $125,623 in today's dollars.  In 1989 Mercedes only sold the top of the line 560SL, in the 70s they had the 350, later the 380 around 1980, and 450.  And optioned up SL550 today would be $125,000.

     

    A 2000 SL550 was $82,600 base price, which is $116,084 in today's money.  Today the SL550 is $110,500 base price.

     

    They have done a pretty good job keeping the car in the same price point of the market.

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    ^ Why did you not do that with the Camaro's 2002 $22K MSRP???

     

    2002 Camaro : $22,500.

    With inflation, to 2015 : $30,109.

    2017 starting Camaro price : $26K.

     

    Let me anticipate you : you are going to say '2.0T vs. V8' but :

    '02 V6 : 200 HP (3323 lbs, 0-60 : 7.3 secs)

    '02 V8 : 335 HP )0-60 : 5.4 secs)

    '17 2.0T : 275 HP (3339 lbs, 0-60 : 5.4 secs)

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    We can do it with the 2002 Camaro, but with accurate numbers.  The 2002 Camaro Z28 was 310 hp and 340 lb-ft and those are probably down rated numbers, dyno tests thought that car was making more like 335 hp, but the Corvette was 350, so they wanted it to look less.

     

    Base 2002 Camaro was $18,415.  In today's dollars that is $24,649 today, so the 2017 model at $26,300 is pretty close.  They held the line pretty well there.

     

    2002 Camaro Z28 was $22,830 which is $30,559 today.  Which is close to where the V6 Camaro is, with similar performance to the V8 of the day.  I am on board with the V6 of today is equal to the V8 of 2002, so in this regard they kept the price in line with inflation.  But the performance is the same, most cars today are faster than their 2002 counterparts.  The lower end Camaros are still in the affordable realm, but my fear is since they are focusing on the high power, high trim models, you have to build the chassis to handle that power and you drag the lower end models up the price ladder or just drop them altogether.  

     

    To use the Mercedes SL example, the 2003 SL500 did 0-60 in 6.1 seconds, today the SL550 can do it in 4.3 seconds, and the price with inflation is the same as it was in 2003.  If you look at the 2002 Mustang GT, those had a 260 hp V8 for $23,220 which is $31,080 with inflation.  You can buy an Ecoboost Mustang which is faster than that car for $25,645 or get a V8 GT for $32,645.  For $1,500 more than a 2002 GT, today's GT blows it away.  The Mustang's value quotient has increased in the past 15 years.

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    • You said you were worried the Camaro was unaffordable to the youth, yet it is priced the same as it was 15 years ago. You were wrong there.

     

    • The 4-CYLINDER (not the V6) now has the acceleration of the V8 of 15 years ago; THAT'S were the performance has increased GREATLY. It is not "the same". Wrong again.

    The top engined Camaro is VASTLY faster than it's counterpart of '02. '02 Camaro V8 : 0-60 : 5.4, '17 Camaro V8 : 0-60 3.9.

     

    • The chassis built to handle it is on the showroom floor; you talk like it's not here now.

     

    • Chevrolet is focused on ALL models, hence the new 2.0T 4; if they were only 'focused' on the V8 there'd be no T4.
     

    • Camaro has plenty of volume to cover variants that will allow the 2.0T or equivalent model to remain in the lineup.

     

    Your worries are unfounded.

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    We can do it with the 2002 Camaro, but with accurate numbers.  The 2002 Camaro Z28 was 310 hp and 340 lb-ft and those are probably down rated numbers, dyno tests thought that car was making more like 335 hp, but the Corvette was 350, so they wanted it to look less.

     

    Base 2002 Camaro was $18,415.  In today's dollars that is $24,649 today, so the 2017 model at $26,300 is pretty close.  They held the line pretty well there.

     

    2002 Camaro Z28 was $22,830 which is $30,559 today.  Which is close to where the V6 Camaro is, with similar performance to the V8 of the day.  I am on board with the V6 of today is equal to the V8 of 2002, so in this regard they kept the price in line with inflation.  But the performance is the same, most cars today are faster than their 2002 counterparts.  The lower end Camaros are still in the affordable realm, but my fear is since they are focusing on the high power, high trim models, you have to build the chassis to handle that power and you drag the lower end models up the price ladder or just drop them altogether.  

     

    To use the Mercedes SL example, the 2003 SL500 did 0-60 in 6.1 seconds, today the SL550 can do it in 4.3 seconds, and the price with inflation is the same as it was in 2003.  If you look at the 2002 Mustang GT, those had a 260 hp V8 for $23,220 which is $31,080 with inflation.  You can buy an Ecoboost Mustang which is faster than that car for $25,645 or get a V8 GT for $32,645.  For $1,500 more than a 2002 GT, today's GT blows it away.  The Mustang's value quotient has increased in the past 15 years.

    Why are you looking at only the price inflation while ignoring the fact that the new models have far more standard equipment than your average 2002 Camaro?

    If you're going move the bar, then move it to the correct spot.

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    The truth is the same problem I had in the 80's then is still the same issue today. Insurance. I could not afford it then with a good driving record and today many youth market drivers can not afford Camaro insurance today. 

     

    As for the C7 there is only one thing it can do better than a mid engine. You can carry ice cream in the trunk. 

    I just got home with my car from the Pontiac Nationals and all my show gear in the truck was roasted. It is amazing how hot the back as well as the front trunk get with cooling. 

    Note I even have a air extracting hood on the front yet it still get very warm. 

    FYI took First in class!! 

     

    They had over 600 Show Pontiac' on the grounds and they are still counting the race cars.  It is always one hell of an event. 

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