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  • William Maley
    William Maley

    Chevrolet Colorado, GMC Canyon Diesels To Be Further Scrutinized

    GM's Upcoming Diesel For Their Midsize Trucks Go Under Further Scrutiny

    The Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon Diesels are feeling the backlash of the Volkswagen diesel scandal. According to Automotive News, General Motors has been told by EPA and California Air Resources Board (CARB) will not certify the trucks until they have undergone tests in the lab and on the road.

     

    “The EPA and CARB told us they are going to do on-road testing," said Scott Yackley, assistant chief engineer for Chevrolet Trucks.

     

    GM says the additional testing could push back the launch of the diesel trucks, which are expected to launch in the fourth quarter. But GM is confident that the trucks will pass the tests.

     

    “Part of our development process is on-road and off-road [laboratory] testing,” said Yackley.

     

    Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)


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    I assume these have the urea system and that they are held to the same standard as a gas engine.  Hopefully people still buy diesels, because they do offer the best combo of torque and fuel economy.

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    Well the one thing we have going here is we have two kinds of Diesel buyers in this country. We have the Euro Diesel buyers and we have truck buyers. I really do not expect this to hurt Chevy. the only thing I think they need to watch is will truck buyers buy a 4 cylinder diesel as most of them want the larger trucks with V8 diesel engines.

    This is untested waters here as so few trucks with small diesels have been offered. In the past the small GM engines failed but they were weak and happened around the time the Olds Diesls were failing.

    It will be interesting to see just how well they sell on their own merits as this is a tough country to market a Diesel unless you are German. Well until now.

    • Upvote 1

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    My three beefs with GM's diesel midsize trucks:  Not available in extended cab.  Not available with manual transmission.  And not available in retail base, or fleet trim.

     

    A base, 2WD extended cab Duramax would make a fantastic fleet vehicle.

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    They want to test it more stringently?

    I smell an ad blitz :)

    an ad blitz?

     

    You are making it waaaaay too easy for me to tie in WW2 with all this VW mess... :D

     

    But I wont....Ill just do The Ramones instead...

     

     

    Hey Ho! Lets Go!

     

    there is no question...The Colorado and Canyon  will come out of this like the other song I wanna post...

     

    LIKE A ROCK!

     

     

    Because Bob Seger is nowhere to be found on Youtube...so the commercial will have to do...its where I wanted to go anyway...

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    My three beefs with GM's diesel midsize trucks:  Not available in extended cab.  Not available with manual transmission.  And not available in retail base, or fleet trim.

     

    A base, 2WD extended cab Duramax would make a fantastic fleet vehicle.

    The lack of a base truck may be due to pricing. This is not a cheap engine anymore due to government regs. I suspect they are holding back on engine price some and adding options to spread out the areas to recoup the profits.

    I would hate to see how much this thing would cost with no options vs. the gas model. I bet there would be a big gulf in price.

    Our government has taken a Diesel and made it so difficult to price any more with regulations that it has almost priced the engine out of existence. Even Europe with their tight laws are easier but I suspect the Green Party will make a move to work to kill these engines.

    It really is a shame.

    I just love how the news people are going around saying VW may have killed 11,000 people? They leave out many who are effected are often people who smoked themselves into repertory issues too. Lets face it we are not finding bodies in the street and the fact is even with the failing reading the VW engine is cleaner than any Diesel in the last 100 years.

    To really get ill from these engines you generally have to have a contributing illness or you live upstairs over a truck stop. We are not talking black lung here. If anyone was to die from lung/Diesel issues it would be heavy equipment operators who sit behind a stack, Farmers and or truck drivers. One really needs to keep this in perspective as the media like in other cases fails to report all the info. 11K deaths garners more attention than if you really break it down.

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    My three beefs with GM's diesel midsize trucks:  Not available in extended cab.  Not available with manual transmission.  And not available in retail base, or fleet trim.

     

    A base, 2WD extended cab Duramax would make a fantastic fleet vehicle.

    The lack of a base truck may be due to pricing. This is not a cheap engine anymore due to government regs. I suspect they are holding back on engine price some and adding options to spread out the areas to recoup the profits.

    I would hate to see how much this thing would cost with no options vs. the gas model. I bet there would be a big gulf in price.

    Our government has taken a Diesel and made it so difficult to price any more with regulations that it has almost priced the engine out of existence. Even Europe with their tight laws are easier but I suspect the Green Party will make a move to work to kill these engines.

    It really is a shame.

    I just love how the news people are going around saying VW may have killed 11,000 people? They leave out many who are effected are often people who smoked themselves into repertory issues too. Lets face it we are not finding bodies in the street and the fact is even with the failing reading the VW engine is cleaner than any Diesel in the last 100 years.

    To really get ill from these engines you generally have to have a contributing illness or you live upstairs over a truck stop. We are not talking black lung here. If anyone was to die from lung/Diesel issues it would be heavy equipment operators who sit behind a stack, Farmers and or truck drivers. One really needs to keep this in perspective as the media like in other cases fails to report all the info. 11K deaths garners more attention than if you really break it down.

     

     

    AHEM...

    Our government has taken a Diesel and made it so difficult to price any more with regulations that it has almost priced the engine out of existence. Even Europe with their tight laws are easier but I suspect the Green Party will make a move to work to kill these engines.

     

    LINKY: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11571615/Dirty-diesel-cars-could-be-banished-as-Britain-ordered-to-cut-air-pollution.html

     

    from the linky: 

     

    Diesel cars could be phased out in Britain after the Supreme Court ruled that the Government must take urgent steps to tackle air pollution in cities.

    The UK is facing millions of pounds of fines from the European Commission for failing to cut levels of nitrogen dioxide (NO2).

    On Wednesday judges in Britain’s highest court ordered the Department for the Environment to submit new air quality plans by the end of the year setting out radical ways of tackling pollution.

    Environmental and motoring groups said that diesel cars and trucks were likely to be targeted because they emit the largest amount of nitrogen dioxide. Freight companies predicted that diesel drivers would be offered incentives to scrap their vehicles or face stiff new taxes.

    However Edmund King of the AA warned that the 11 million motorists who were ‘misled’ into buying diesel cars during Gordon Brown’s ‘dash for diesel’ would feel betrayed.

    “There have been confusing messages and the goal now seems to have changed from encouragement to the demonising of diesel,” said Mr King.

    “This won’t just affect big polluting trucks, but taxi drivers and families with people-carriers as well. This could drive down the value of cars dramatically.

    "We all want better air quality but knee-jerk reactions without considering the science will not help air quality, industry or drivers.”

     

    Therefore....your hatred towards your own  government entities are misplaced...

     

    Europe...OK...in this case the United Kingdom...but Im sure I could find other European countries that have vilified the diesel...maybe not...I do know of the U.K. though...will outlaw the diesel very soon...and VW's mess is NOT doing the diesel engine any favours...

     

    So...wanna continue this charade against YOUR OWN guvment?

     

     

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    The thing is...even in that article that I posted...to NOT have the PUBLIC go in an outrage...the British government wants to go baby steps with the banning of diesels...that is why the knee jerk reaction was mentioned...

     

    Why?

     

    11 million diesel motorists will be affected....that have been "misled"...

     only to mention science again...and maybe the numbers are not correct...

     

    YOU will say that its the green movement that is pushing for this...

     

    OK...

     

    fair enough...

     

    Take a study of Los Angeles air pollution from the 1970s and the 1980s and then come and complain to me about air pollution...

    Dont forget when you study that...to also take into consideration how Europe's air quality was in those times also...Athens Greece should surprise you...

     

    And THEN come and complain to me...

     

    Before you do that though...take a looksie on how China's air quality is as of today...

    And THEN come and complain to me...

     

     

    But before you do that...learn about what the TRUTH is behind diesels and THEN come and talk to me....

     

    About diesels...I aint gonna pretend I know...because I dont...so with the diesel part of this argument....teach me...

    But before you do that...

     

    Learn why their are entities like the EPA around....PS: I dont care if they are corrupt also...

     

    Why?

     

    Because I happen to assume that diesels...just like leaded gasoline...is NOT good for the air that we breathe...

    So...

     

    If diesels have to be regulated with an iron fist....so be it...

    If VW screwed the pooch for EVERYBODY concerning diesels...c'est la vie...

     

    The world had to adapt when killing whales for fuel was outlawed...

    The world had to adapt when using coal was mostly abolished...

    The world nearly had to adapt when the world said no more nuclear reactors for electricity...GERMANY has outlawed them nuclear reactors...yes Japan was the reason....Quebec shut down its nuclear reactor too...

     

    The world had to adapt when leaded gasoline was no more...

     The world will have to adapt if and when diesels will be outlawed...C'est. La. Vie.

     

    PSS: All those things that I mentioned that were banned from different places on the planet....they all have one common denominator...

     

    Can you guess what that is?

     

    They are all very harmful to our planet...

     

    We continue to pollute it...yes...they are far WORSE things that pollute than diesels...

     

    If that is the case...maybe we should return to leaded gasolines...

     

    Maybe we should continue whaling.

     

    Maybe we should go back to urinating on the streets....just because there are far worse polluters on the planet...

    Edited by oldshurst442

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    You know the biggest advantage about diesel fuel efficiency has to do with the fact they run on homogeneous charge compression ignition, and then recirculate exhaust gases to pump more air into the cylinders.

     

    If HCCI becomes feasible for gas engines, there's going to be massive increases in FE and reduced engine complexity.

     

    In other words, diesel engines work just fine, but the alternatives that might just be possible; will just kill it, or make it extremely uneconomical. Basically it's gonna be a product with a negative and high reduced cost.

     

    As for this truck; yeah it's gonna give heat to a lot of different trucks. But it will not be a viable business model for GM on a large scale. The reason why it is packaged the way it is, is because GM does not want this truck to be any threat to the Silverado.  They want the enthusiast and the mid-size buyer. People who weren't going to buy full-size anyways. Plain business sense. 

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    You know the biggest advantage about diesel fuel efficiency has to do with the fact they run on homogeneous charge compression ignition, and then recirculate exhaust gases to pump more air into the cylinders.

    If HCCI becomes feasible for gas engines, there's going to be massive increases in FE and reduced engine complexity.

    In other words, diesel engines work just fine, but the alternatives that might just be possible; will just kill it, or make it extremely uneconomical. Basically it's gonna be a product with a negative and high reduced cost.

    As for this truck; yeah it's gonna give heat to a lot of different trucks. But it will not be a viable business model for GM on a large scale. The reason why it is packaged the way it is, is because GM does not want this truck to be any threat to the Silverado. They want the enthusiast and the mid-size buyer. People who weren't going to buy full-size anyways. Plain business sense.

    I bet a couple of Directors of Powertrains got visits from brass lately asking them to dust off those old HCCI plans they had back in 08.

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    Well the one thing we have going here is we have two kinds of Diesel buyers in this country. We have the Euro Diesel buyers and we have truck buyers. I really do not expect this to hurt Chevy. the only thing I think they need to watch is will truck buyers buy a 4 cylinder diesel as most of them want the larger trucks with V8 diesel engines.

    This is untested waters here as so few trucks with small diesels have been offered. In the past the small GM engines failed but they were weak and happened around the time the Olds Diesls were failing.

    It will be interesting to see just how well they sell on their own merits as this is a tough country to market a Diesel unless you are German. Well until now.

     

    Back in the 70's when GM had Isuzu build their mini pickup, the Luv truck series, the Diesel sold like hotcakes and you still find them around running, rusty as heck but still running. I believe they will sell well.

    I would like to see them bring the Colorado 7 to the U.S. market as a Trailblazer/Envoy, with gas 3.6 and Duramax availability.

    I agree with your thinking here, I would love them to do this. I think there is a solid market for it here.

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    My three beefs with GM's diesel midsize trucks:  Not available in extended cab.  Not available with manual transmission.  And not available in retail base, or fleet trim.

     

    A base, 2WD extended cab Duramax would make a fantastic fleet vehicle.

    The lack of a base truck may be due to pricing. This is not a cheap engine anymore due to government regs. I suspect they are holding back on engine price some and adding options to spread out the areas to recoup the profits.

    I would hate to see how much this thing would cost with no options vs. the gas model. I bet there would be a big gulf in price.

    Our government has taken a Diesel and made it so difficult to price any more with regulations that it has almost priced the engine out of existence. Even Europe with their tight laws are easier but I suspect the Green Party will make a move to work to kill these engines.

    It really is a shame.

    I just love how the news people are going around saying VW may have killed 11,000 people? They leave out many who are effected are often people who smoked themselves into repertory issues too. Lets face it we are not finding bodies in the street and the fact is even with the failing reading the VW engine is cleaner than any Diesel in the last 100 years.

    To really get ill from these engines you generally have to have a contributing illness or you live upstairs over a truck stop. We are not talking black lung here. If anyone was to die from lung/Diesel issues it would be heavy equipment operators who sit behind a stack, Farmers and or truck drivers. One really needs to keep this in perspective as the media like in other cases fails to report all the info. 11K deaths garners more attention than if you really break it down.

     

    I'll defend what that 11,000 people may have come from. I posted a link saying the NOx(correct that if it is wrong.. whatever it is that is harmful from diesels) kills 11,000 people per year. It didn't say anything specific about VW or any one manufacturer just that diesel exhaust IS harmful(if not treated correctly).

     

    I'll try and find where I posted it so you can read it. It definitely was not vehicle or manufacturer specific. In all honesty it is coming from all of the HD vehicles out there whether semi trucks or construction equipment. But, the VW's were supposedly clean and they were not that.. I think that is where some of this discrepancy has come from. 

     

    You know the biggest advantage about diesel fuel efficiency has to do with the fact they run on homogeneous charge compression ignition, and then recirculate exhaust gases to pump more air into the cylinders.

    If HCCI becomes feasible for gas engines, there's going to be massive increases in FE and reduced engine complexity.

    In other words, diesel engines work just fine, but the alternatives that might just be possible; will just kill it, or make it extremely uneconomical. Basically it's gonna be a product with a negative and high reduced cost.

    As for this truck; yeah it's gonna give heat to a lot of different trucks. But it will not be a viable business model for GM on a large scale. The reason why it is packaged the way it is, is because GM does not want this truck to be any threat to the Silverado. They want the enthusiast and the mid-size buyer. People who weren't going to buy full-size anyways. Plain business sense.

    I bet a couple of Directors of Powertrains got visits from brass lately asking them to dust off those old HCCI plans they had back in 08.

     

    I thought either Hyundai or Kia still have an active program around this. I read about it not too long ago.

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    I just love how the news people are going around saying VW may have killed 11,000 people? They leave out many who are effected are often people who smoked themselves into repertory issues too. Lets face it we are not finding bodies in the street and the fact is even with the failing reading the VW engine is cleaner than any Diesel in the last 100 years.

    To really get ill from these engines you generally have to have a contributing illness or you live upstairs over a truck stop. We are not talking black lung here. If anyone was to die from lung/Diesel issues it would be heavy equipment operators who sit behind a stack, Farmers and or truck drivers. One really needs to keep this in perspective as the media like in other cases fails to report all the info. 11K deaths garners more attention than if you really break it down.

     

     

    http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/newscience/2013/11/diesel-lung-cancer-deaths/

     

    This was the link I was refering to. I believe my prior post's assesment of it wasn't very accurate..sloppy memory..

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    I just love how the news people are going around saying VW may have killed 11,000 people? They leave out many who are effected are often people who smoked themselves into repertory issues too. Lets face it we are not finding bodies in the street and the fact is even with the failing reading the VW engine is cleaner than any Diesel in the last 100 years.

    To really get ill from these engines you generally have to have a contributing illness or you live upstairs over a truck stop. We are not talking black lung here. If anyone was to die from lung/Diesel issues it would be heavy equipment operators who sit behind a stack, Farmers and or truck drivers. One really needs to keep this in perspective as the media like in other cases fails to report all the info. 11K deaths garners more attention than if you really break it down.

     

    http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/newscience/2013/11/diesel-lung-cancer-deaths/

     

    This was the link I was refering to. I believe my prior post's assesment of it wasn't very accurate..sloppy memory..

    Never questioned your number I just question that someone is out there claiming that many deaths from Diesels but do not post that many of these people also suffer from other things that let the Diesels contribute to their deaths.

    Of these deaths how many also have issues from Smoking, Work related damage, Birth Respiratory issues Drug history related issues.

    I used to work for a medical company and we dealt with many respiratory patients and generally many of the people did not just have one issues and often times it was a combination and often self inflicted.

    I would like to see the medical evidence that can directly tie the deaths of 11K people just to diesel exhaust only. I wager no one can prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt or we would have every diesel maker in court now being sued for all they can be had for.

    Like many things today Some people think the Truth is the Truth is you can get enough fools to believe it. The tactic is often to make your case with numbers that could be right or wrong but now way to prove 100% they are spot on. Then you defend it and if you are being accused of not fully disclosing the truth you attack the people who say you are full of it.

    We see this in the global warming debate all the time. If the facts are there clear and indisputable then prove it but most times the numbers are not beyond a shadow of a doubt. This is true for both sides.

    Science has been wrong countless ways in our history and we all need to remain open minded to anything not just because someone tells you it is true. I fine it odd if you have the absolute proof in something why do they have to be so defensive?

    There are folks out there who want to vilify the Diesel and they will do and say what ever they need to do in getting their way. People Lie Plain and Simple.

    Like most things today everyone lies and the truth is somewhere in between. Since the web has come along so many folks take so many things out of context anymore too.

    I just do not buy that many people die because of Diesel unless they have been run over. Now I do believe that it could contribute under the right circumstances but things all have to be just right or the right conditions.

    The first fact is people Lie. The second fact of Life is people die. I am sure there are a couple folks who died from a defective computer mouse if you did deep enough.

    Hell we could say Kool Aid kills thousands but we can leave out that they were diabetics that should not be drinking the sugar.

    The real problem is the larger the crowd the lower the collective IQ. Anymore we as a society have lost our common Knowledge and common Sense to make rational and informed opinions and thoughts. Hell so many people today could not tell you who the VP is but they can tell you what Bruce Jenners new name is. Sad.

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    Hyper...is still does NOT change the fact that diesels  are a DIRTY fuel....

     

    It STILL does NOT change the fact that diesels are targeted...

     

    OK....YOU like diesels...it still does not change the fact that when YOU say people lie...that YOU also lie and turn a blind eye.

     

    It still does not change the fact that when people lie....they have a hidden agenda...and it still does NOT change the fact that...YOUR OPPOSITE opinion of diesels is BASED on YOUR PERSONAL AGENDA....in WHICH YOU are LYING...

     

     

    THAT is THE sad part...when YOU want to push YOUR agenda and YOU push all other agendas on the side...

     

    The reality of things...is that diesels...are NOT a very clean fuel...

     

    And because today...in 2015....we have BETTER alternatives...

     

    YOU could argue the cleanliness of batteries...I wont argue with you on your findings...

     

    Just like someone could either be for or against nuclear power....

     

    The fact still remains...diesels are not that clean...and their by product is a DIRECT hit to the air we breathe...

     

    you could still argue that fact for battery production...which is a moot point because diesel production emits the same amount at the factory level...

    But as a fuel source...the battery is cleaner...

     

    OK...you could argue about battery disposals...

     

    Well...there are laws into place for that...

     

    Just like there is for diesel cars and passing EPA emissions...

     

    Do you really want me to talk about VW again?

     

     

    We all have an agenda...YOURS is just as hypocritical as the ones you seem to distrust.

    WHY?

     

    When you use as arguments...people die anyway and anyhow...

     

     

    Again...the black  plague was hundreds of years ago and was thought to be carried by rats...

     

    Nobody thought it was caused by idiot humans urinating in the streets and dumping bath water in the streets etc...

     

    So...because people die anyway...and there are worse causes of pollution....do we dare return urinating in the streets?

    Edited by oldshurst442

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    I ran out of editing time again...

     

    Again...the black  plague was hundreds of years ago and was thought to be carried by rats...

     

    Nobody thought it was caused by idiot humans urinating in the streets and dumping bath water in the streets etc...

     

    So...because people die anyway...and there are worse causes of pollution....do we dare return urinating in the streets?

     

    Why bother with Port-a-Pottys and a sewer system?

     

    Why even bother telling corporations NOT to dump crap in rivers and lakes?

     

    Why even have clean air acts and laws?

     

    Why even have laws?

     

    Anarchy is a way to go...

     

    Murder....hell...there was another shooting in another school today...

     

    Why bother finding solutions?

     

    People die anyway...old age, cancer, drug overdose, getting hit by a car...

     

    Who cares?

     

    Speed, run with scissors in your hands...pollute...

     

    Have a free for all....

     

    Hidden agendas you say?

     

    Well...obviously YOUR hidden agenda is more important than mine...

     

    All I want is for corporate greed to stop....and for companies to be responsible when it comes to the planet...

     

    If the diesel engine has to go because its a very difficult thing to control emissions wise with all the demands that the modern consumer uts on the automobile...than so be it...

     

    Electrics looks like a more viable solution...

     

    Could diesels be obsolete?

     

    Could be...

     

    And maybe THAT is what YOU are afraid to admit...

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    I agree Hyper. I just wanted to clarify mostly that that number wasn't directed at VW alone. And I also completely agree that those 6%/11k of lung cancer patients probably have other issues contributing that cannot tie down diesel 100% to the cause. Buuuut if they had been tied directly to diesel(which I highly doubt could even be done, like you said) it could be in part to old diesels never had these stringent restrictions like they do today. And I would wager good money that those who they are counting in those 6% are people around construction, mining, etc equipment all their lives which don't have any restrictions, that I know of. So those do probably put out 95% of the total smog from diesels. Just an guestimate on my part though.

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    Hyper...is still does NOT change the fact that diesels  are a DIRTY fuel....

     

    It STILL does NOT change the fact that diesels are targeted...

     

    OK....YOU like diesels...it still does not change the fact that when YOU say people lie...that YOU also lie and turn a blind eye.

     

    It still does not change the fact that when people lie....they have a hidden agenda...and it still does NOT change the fact that...YOUR OPPOSITE opinion of diesels is BASED on YOUR PERSONAL AGENDA....in WHICH YOU are LYING...

     

     

    THAT is THE sad part...when YOU want to push YOUR agenda and YOU push all other agendas on the side...

     

    The reality of things...is that diesels...are NOT a very clean fuel...

     

    And because today...in 2015....we have BETTER alternatives...

     

    YOU could argue the cleanliness of batteries...I wont argue with you on your findings...

     

    Just like someone could either be for or against nuclear power....

     

    The fact still remains...diesels are not that clean...and their by product is a DIRECT hit to the air we breathe...

     

    you could still argue that fact for battery production...which is a moot point because diesel production emits the same amount at the factory level...

    But as a fuel source...the battery is cleaner...

     

    OK...you could argue about battery disposals...

     

    Well...there are laws into place for that...

     

    Just like there is for diesel cars and passing EPA emissions...

     

    Do you really want me to talk about VW again?

     

     

    We all have an agenda...YOURS is just as hypocritical as the ones you seem to distrust.

    WHY?

     

    When you use as arguments...people die anyway and anyhow...

     

     

    Again...the black  plague was hundreds of years ago and was thought to be carried by rats...

     

    Nobody thought it was caused by idiot humans urinating in the streets and dumping bath water in the streets etc...

     

    So...because people die anyway...and there are worse causes of pollution....do we dare return urinating in the streets?

     

    Bravo olds.

    Greeks are some of the smartest MoFo's I know.

     

    Has anyone in history come close to the many contributions we gave modern civilization, like:

    architecture

    philosophy

    democracy

    astronomy

    sports and olympics

    mathematics and geometry

    alarm clocks

    odometer

    even early medicine

     

    So everyone better listen when a Greek speaks :)

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    Greeks

     

     

    Hyper...is still does NOT change the fact that diesels  are a DIRTY fuel....

     

    It STILL does NOT change the fact that diesels are targeted...

     

    OK....YOU like diesels...it still does not change the fact that when YOU say people lie...that YOU also lie and turn a blind eye.

     

    It still does not change the fact that when people lie....they have a hidden agenda...and it still does NOT change the fact that...YOUR OPPOSITE opinion of diesels is BASED on YOUR PERSONAL AGENDA....in WHICH YOU are LYING...

     

     

    THAT is THE sad part...when YOU want to push YOUR agenda and YOU push all other agendas on the side...

     

    The reality of things...is that diesels...are NOT a very clean fuel...

     

    And because today...in 2015....we have BETTER alternatives...

     

    YOU could argue the cleanliness of batteries...I wont argue with you on your findings...

     

    Just like someone could either be for or against nuclear power....

     

    The fact still remains...diesels are not that clean...and their by product is a DIRECT hit to the air we breathe...

     

    you could still argue that fact for battery production...which is a moot point because diesel production emits the same amount at the factory level...

    But as a fuel source...the battery is cleaner...

     

    OK...you could argue about battery disposals...

     

    Well...there are laws into place for that...

     

    Just like there is for diesel cars and passing EPA emissions...

     

    Do you really want me to talk about VW again?

     

     

    We all have an agenda...YOURS is just as hypocritical as the ones you seem to distrust.

    WHY?

     

    When you use as arguments...people die anyway and anyhow...

     

     

    Again...the black  plague was hundreds of years ago and was thought to be carried by rats...

     

    Nobody thought it was caused by idiot humans urinating in the streets and dumping bath water in the streets etc...

     

    So...because people die anyway...and there are worse causes of pollution....do we dare return urinating in the streets?

     

    Bravo olds.

    Greeks are some of the smartest MoFo's I know.

     

    Has anyone in history come close to the many contributions we gave modern civilization, like:

    architecture

    philosophy

    democracy

    astronomy

    sports and olympics

    mathematics and geometry

    alarm clocks

    odometer

    even early medicine

     

    So everyone better listen when a Greek speaks :)

     

    Greeks are also one of the most sarcastic...on the other hand, regular American folk are one of the most sincerest folk...

     

    Is that you being Greek?

    Or is that you being American?

     

    That is the question for the ages... :scratchchin:

     

    Well...in this here thread anyway.

     

    It dont matter....my moment in the sun regarding this topic is done.

     

    And thank-you if you are being American in that reply and well...hey...we're  Greeks, we do what we do if you are being Greek...

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