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Oracle of Delphi

FUTURE PRODUCTS -- GENERAL MOTORS

58 posts in this topic

Jamie LaReau

Automotive News

August 25, 2008 - 12:01 am ET

At Buick, it's nearly all about China — the brand's biggest market.

Buick's redesigned mid-sized car will be sold here and in China. A small sedan created for China may be sold here. A stylish, rear-wheel-drive sedan went on sale last year in China and was penciled in for the United States. But GM's financial plight scuttled the U.S. plan for the rwd sedan, as well as production plans for a sharp-looking coupe concept that debuted last year at the Shanghai auto show.

Small car: General Motors is likely to bring a redesigned compact sedan to the United States for the 2012 model year, a front-wheel-drive vehicle built on GM's new global Delta vehicle architecture. That car will be sold in China.

Still to be decided is whether Buick or Pontiac will market the car. No decision has been made on where that car would be assembled.

LaCrosse: The Invicta concept car, unveiled this year, is essentially a mildly camouflaged 2010 LaCrosse. The Buick sedan is being developed on GM's new global mid-sized, fwd vehicle architecture. The car was co-engineered and co-designed with GM's China operations.

Lucerne: Buick's top sedan gets a new lease on life. The fwd cruiser had been scheduled to be discontinued during the 2010 model year. A redesigned 2011 model was planned, with the Lucerne switching to GM's global rwd Zeta vehicle architecture.

But "serious fuel economy issues" killed the rwd Buick sedan and rwd Chevrolet Impala, says one GM insider.

The Lucerne will continue as is with only minor upgrades. How many years? As long as its size and fuel economy fit into U.S. federal regulatory standards, says one GM insider.

Interestingly, China already is selling that rwd Buick. The car is assembled by GM's Holden subsidiary in Australia and exported to China as the Park Avenue.

Riviera: GM no longer can afford to develop the car that would have added some excitement to the product line. Plans for the sexy two-door coupe based on the highly praised Riviera concept are dead.

Enclave: In terms of styling, the popular crossover essentially will remain unchanged for several years. The Enclave may get a freshening for the 2011 model year. The changes in corporate average fuel economy and GM's financial problems make more extensive changes unlikely for some time. All of GM's Lambda-based crossovers are candidates for a Two Mode hybrid.

Link: http://www.autonews.com/article/20080825/ANA03/808250305

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Sigh.

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I don't think Pontiac needs a rebadged compact Cruze and a rebadged compact Chinese Buick. The compact Chinese Buick should be sold in the US as a Buick... with standard Quiet Tuning and Buick's standard warranty.

If Lucerne is to "soldier on" like the DTS, then the Lucerne needs a 6-sp automatic and 3.6l V6... which is assumed as planned for the DTS.

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I don't think Pontiac needs a rebadged compact Cruze and a rebadged compact Chinese Buick. The compact Chinese Buick should be sold in the US as a Buick... with standard Quiet Tuning and Buick's standard warranty.

If Lucerne is to "soldier on" like the DTS, then the Lucerne needs a 6-sp automatic and 3.6l V6... which is assumed as planned for the DTS.

How is it assumed as planned for the DTS? I didn't hear anything to that.

What really upsets me is they're essentially Crown Vic/Grand Marquing the Lucerne. They could update the interior dramatically and refresh the exterior with some new sheet metal and an edgier grille to at least try and keep it fresh. Minor updates to me means packing/color changes, maybe the addition of a feature or two.

It's upsetting--I love the Lucerne, would love it to become a big player, but it seems it won't be given the chance.

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Just based off of what was said in the Cadillac topic. I just took it as an assumption... although the point is valid. The Northstar V8 is still planned for phased out soon.

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Just based off of what was said in the Cadillac topic. I just took it as an assumption... although the point is valid. The Northstar V8 is still planned for phased out soon.

Ah, I saw the part about the 3.6L, but not anything about a 6-speed being offered.

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The Lucerne platform is already 14 years old, come 2011 that car is going to be ancient, and that is their flagship. Much like the DTS does to Cadillac, it just makes the brand seem outdated and geared toward senior citizens. A Buick car on Delta could work if it is nice, and not just a rebadge.

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GM has its head up its ass still, it will not survive with plans like these. Neither Buick nor Pontiac really needs a Cruze-based vehicle when there is already going to be the Cruze, Astra, and 9-3, but if one of them must have it, it should go to Buick, only because the Pontiac would essentially be a Cruze and nothing more. On the contrary, Pontiac would benefit much more from an Alpha-based compact than Buick as the Buick would be priced much more closely to the Cadillac Alpha.

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The Lucerne platform is already 14 years old, come 2011 that car is going to be ancient, and that is their flagship. Much like the DTS does to Cadillac, it just makes the brand seem outdated and geared toward senior citizens. A Buick car on Delta could work if it is nice, and not just a rebadge.

Yes and no. The G-Platform has received several updates and changes since 1994. I don't personally agree with the strategy, but the Lucerne/DTS platform is not identical to the 1st gen Aurora.

If the platform cannot accommodate a modern power train, then it should be phased out. If the Lucerne/DTS can be upgraded to handle the 6-sp auto, then I'm perfectly fine with a 3rd generation of vehicles off of the G-Platform.

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Yes and no. The G-Platform has received several updates and changes since 1994. I don't personally agree with the strategy, but the Lucerne/DTS platform is not identical to the 1st gen Aurora.

If the platform cannot accommodate a modern power train, then it should be phased out. If the Lucerne/DTS can be upgraded to handle the 6-sp auto, then I'm perfectly fine with a 3rd generation of vehicles off of the G-Platform.

+1

If they firm up the suspension a tad, and it can handle the 3.6L DI with a 6-speed, all they'd have to do is tweak the interior and I'd be happy.

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+1

If they firm up the suspension a tad, and it can handle the 3.6L DI with a 6-speed, all they'd have to do is tweak the interior and I'd be happy.

Can I take your order?

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Yes and no. The G-Platform has received several updates and changes since 1994. I don't personally agree with the strategy, but the Lucerne/DTS platform is not identical to the 1st gen Aurora.

If the platform cannot accommodate a modern power train, then it should be phased out. If the Lucerne/DTS can be upgraded to handle the 6-sp auto, then I'm perfectly fine with a 3rd generation of vehicles off of the G-Platform.

I don't see the point in spending more on an old platform when they have a perfectly good new platform that they are underutilizing...(Zeta).

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Can I take your order?

If that happens and I don't have a new car by then, I'd greatly consider it.

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Can I take your order?

Can you place 2 orders? :smilewide:

Can you make mine with Head-Up Display?

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I don't see the point in spending more on an old platform when they have a perfectly good new platform that they are underutilizing...(Zeta).

There's nothing wrong with the G-Platform except for the power train. The overhangs are no greater than the foreign competition. Interior dimensions are very accommodating including trunk space. A Lucerne with 3.6l & 6-speed would be a perfectly fine replacement for my V6-powered Park Avenue Ultra.

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There's nothing wrong with the G-Platform except for the power train. The overhangs are no greater than the foreign competition. Interior dimensions are very accommodating including trunk space. A Lucerne with 3.6l & 6-speed would be a perfectly fine replacement for my V6-powered Park Avenue Ultra.

And the DI 3.6 would be a fair replacement for the "PA ultra". It'd be a nice CXL.

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Well HUD is a selling point with me also, as you most likely know. :smilewide:

I wouldn't mind HUD, but there are so many other features I'd love to see in Buicks before that.

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I love HUD in my current PA and would like to keep that feature. The updated HUD in the Corvette & STS would be very nice.

But... while we're composing wish lists for Lucerne upgrades...

Exterior:

Xenon/HID Headlights - (like the Enclave)

LED Tail lights - (Like the 2010 LaCrosse & DTS)

front foglamps on all trims (just looks better - more youthful. Simpler to build with one facia too)

Interior:

Updated dash to help tie all three models together (2010 LaCrosse, Lucerne, & Enclave)

Mood lighting (if included in the 2010 LaCrosse) with possible LED gauges?

HUD

Memory driver & front passenger seats (All Lexus sedans including the ES350 offer them)

Heated rear seats

Rear power sunshade

Rear manual passenger window sunshades

Powertrain:

DI 3.6l with 6-speed automatic. :)

Make the Lucerne just two trim levels with 5-passenger seating only... so drop the CX. The Lucerne needs to be positioned above the 2010 LaCrosse. The CX trim would prevent that.

I wouldn't desire a Chinese Cadillac SLS if the above Lucerne was offered. :scratchchin:

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The G-platform was fine back in the day, I have a G-platform I agree that there is nothing wrong with it. However, for $40k or more cars, there is better out there now. In 3 years there will be even better stuff out there, the G-platform is just past its prime, as is the Northstar. I am pretty sure the G-body can't accommodate the 6-speed, and the overhangs on the Lucerene are bad.

Buick sold 309,000 cars in 2004, yet is on pace for 180,000 or so this year. This brand is sinking, it is almost impossible for them to get younger buyers at this point.

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I am pretty sure the G-body can't accommodate the 6-speed, and the overhangs on the Lucerene are bad.

The overhangs on the Lucerne are almost identical in length to one of its closest competitors: Toyota Avalon... which is based on the "thoroughly modern" Camry platform.

Toyota Avalon

Length: 197.2 in

Wheelbase: 111.0 in

Overhang: 86.2 in

Buick Lucerne

Length: 203.2 in

Wheelbase: 115.0 in

Overhang: 88.2 in

Your G-Platform Aurora shows that the platform's overhangs do not need to be excessive. I think this is the third or fourth time I've pointed this out to you.

Buick sold 309,000 cars in 2004, yet is on pace for 180,000 or so this year. This brand is sinking, it is almost impossible for them to get younger buyers at this point.

How many models did Buick sell in 2004 compared to 2008? Yeah...

And Buick has already started attracting younger buyers... Don't you read any of the articles posted on this site?

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I don't see the point in spending more on an old platform when they have a perfectly good new platform that they are underutilizing...(Zeta).

I'm sure part of it has to do with weight:

Loaded large Buick Lucerne Super (with all the additional sound-deadening material + size)

4,004 lbs (203.2 in - length)

Loaded large Cadillac DTS

4,009 lbs (207.6 in - length)

Loaded midsize Pontiac G8 GT

3995 lbs (196.1 in - length)

Loaded Holden V8 Caprice

4160 lbs (1887 Kg)

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