balthazar

sales figures

31 posts in this topic

Trying to find production volumes for either current or past model years on the 'net is near impossible. I have gone to the sales ticker archives here numerous times, and the archived info is not good, IMO. Links to full sales charts are often broken (I was just in '06 & '07) and as a GM site, there should be cumulative posts to round up the year for each make, so this data is readily at hand. Instead, I often feel like the Nick Cage in National Treasure trying to find this info.

Was looking for CTS production history since year 1- and there's almost nothing here. In that it's as hard or harder to find it 'out there', having it here would really bring the site up a notch.

My 2 cents.

Edited by balthazar
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Thanks Satster - that was actually helpful!

CTS has been amazingly consistant volume-wise- I had seen other loose allegations it was horribly down. I am still interested in seeing it's segment marketshare since '02, esp vs. the 3-series (US sales only- not the massive European fleet sales).

But relative to my opening paragraph- I went to 3-series on wiki :rolleyes: yet no production figures there.

Like I said- as a GM site- 'we' should have -at least- all GM figures listed for ready reference.... but of course without everything else- there's nothing to compare the numbers to.

From the sales ticker archives: BMW 5-series YTD thru Nov 2006 : 107,016. CTS: 54,846.

Edited by balthazar
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Like I said- as a GM site- 'we' should have -at least- all GM figures listed for ready reference.... but of course without everything else- there's nothing to compare the numbers to.

I just have gathered everything back up to Jan 2004. Hang in there. We need to put the numbers in some format which is clearly understandable.

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Sales numbers are hit-and-miss on Wikipedia, but anytime I want to check some out, I try there first because sometimes they're there and its extremely quick, other times I'm reduced to searching through GM's archives.

And yes, the CTS has been consistant, it'll probably go up by a few thousand units when the wagon and coupe hit.

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Yet I'm reading multiple 'facts' that the CTS has been "trending down" this year.

Does seem weird that wiki lists 2009 totals when this week is still '09 and Dec #s shouldn't out til sometime in Jan.

From all accounts, the wagon won't do much in the way of #s, but I expect the coupe to make a major volume contribution...

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True, the wagon wont add much, maybe a couple thousand, but I'd bet they'll be conquest sales, people looking at BMW and Audi wagons (and maybe SUV/CUV buyers), and not cannibalizing sedan sales.

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According to GM's figures, Wikipedia's figures are off. Way off. From the November sales report

CTS 34,637 54,378 -36.3

As of the end of November, the CTS was down 36.3% per GM's math. The 2009 numbers on Wikipedia are un-sourced, the GM numbers come straight from GM.

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Some of the Wikipedia numbers look a little off. Especially 2009, when the CTS, STS, and DTS combined have sold about 54,000. I do remember the CTS topping 60,000 in 2005, that was its best year and sales did drop a little after that as the car aged, so the 04-07 Wikipedia numbers look pretty good.

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I found recent BMW numbers:

2009: 3-series 81,997

5-series 36,195

2008: 3-series 112,464

5-series 45,945

2007 3-series 142,490

5-series 54,142

2006 3-series 120,180

5-series 56,756

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2009: C-class 47,578

E-class 37,635

2008: C-class 72,471

E-class 38,576

2007: C-class 63,701

E-class 48,950

2006: C-class 50,187

E-CLASS 50,195

2005: C-class 60,658

E-class 50,383

Note: CLK is counted separate, it averaged 15-18,000 per year until 08 when it dropped to 10,000. CLK is dead and will be E-class coupe and convertible from now on.

2007 was Mercedes record sales year in the USA.

Edited by smk4565
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^^ That's why I laugh @ wiki- uncontrolled & unreliable. The only reason it got as big as it has is cause people like to 'hear' themselves 'talk'.

Interesting: from '07 to '09, the 3-series lost 60,493 units, for a 43% decrease.

CTS lost 22,392 units from '07 to '09, for a 39% decrease.

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^^ That's why I laugh @ wiki- uncontrolled & unreliable. The only reason it got as big as it has is cause people like to 'hear' themselves 'talk'.

Interesting: from '07 to '09, the 3-series lost 60,493 units, for a 43% decrease.

CTS lost 22,392 units from '07 to '09, for a 39% decrease.

So what, the 3-series was in a current model for all that time, while the CTS released a new model in 08. The 1-series also came out, which probably took some 3-series sales. The 5-series and E-class dropped off in 07 to 09 also, but the 2010 E-class is selling at the same rate as it did in 2006 when the market was strong.

The STS/DTS combined sold 72,342 in 2007, and will be lucky to top 23,000 this year. That would be a 68% decline, and the XLR was canceled. So if those customers are leaving, and the CTS is down 39%, what does Cadillac have left?

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1-series is selling at a rate of 500/mnth. In other words, it's flopping, and badly.

>>"will be lucky to top 23,000 this year"<<

So what- corporation is coming out of a bankruptcy this year.

>>"what does Cadillac have left?"<<

CTS sportwagon & CTS coupe, in the immediate future.

SRX doing very well from what I've heard (have not checked the numbers).

For me, and anyone with sense, success is not measured by sheer volume. Ask toyoyo where that's gotten them, or mercedes when their warranty costs tripled in 1 year's time. I believe that was 2007, in fact. If Cadillac is profitable, I'd prefer more exclusivity (which means lower sales volume).

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1-series is selling at a rate of 500/mnth. In other words, it's flopping, and badly.

>>"will be lucky to top 23,000 this year"<<

So what- corporation is coming out of a bankruptcy this year.

>>"what does Cadillac have left?"<<

CTS sportwagon & CTS coupe, in the immediate future.

SRX doing very well from what I've heard (have not checked the numbers).

For me, and anyone with sense, success is not measured by sheer volume. Ask toyoyo where that's gotten them, or mercedes when their warranty costs tripled in 1 year's time. I believe that was 2007, in fact. If Cadillac is profitable, I'd prefer more exclusivity (which means lower sales volume).

Bankruptcy came out of years of poor decisions on product planning, that seem to continue in the post bankruptcy era. And customers don't care about the company's struggles, GM/Cadillac have to find a way to build a better car than the Germans despite bankruptcy, and every year they delay is more time for the Germans to build their lead.

If you measure success by profit, GM is pretty terrible. Cadillac isn't exclusive in a good way like Maserati or Bentley, they are becoming exclusive because fewer and fewer people want their cars. Much like Saab and Volvo are exclusive. The 1-series which you always say is a flop, outsells the STS.

The SRX is selling well, but they cut $10,000 off the price from the previous SRX. Going down market to get volume isn't going to help their image any. If Cadillac goes down market, they don't really need Buick/GMC then. CTS Wagon and Coupe on the way isn't enough, BMW and Merc have had multiple body styles on multiple cars for years. Even Infiniti and Lexus have sedan/coupe/convertible on the IS and G37.

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If going "downmarket" doesn't help an image, what do you think the 1-series is doing ??

>>"And customers don't care about the company's struggles..."<<

They absolutely do. A buddy of mine is a chronic Chevy nut, currently owns 4 personal-use plus about 25 commercial, and he says because of the 'loan', his next truck may well be a Ford (replacing an '08 Silverado). I have heard a LOT of people say this (tho personally I don't see the validity of it).

>>"Cadillac have to find a way to build a better car than the Germans"<<

Cadillac does - the CTS & CTS-V.

>>"If you measure success by profit, GM is pretty terrible."<<

No argument there, but it is a better indicator of success than sheer volume in my book.

Your book seems to imply mercedes would be better off selling -what- 300,000 units in the U.S. ? 400,000 ??

>>"The 1-series which you always say is a flop, outsells the STS."<<

1-series is far more affordable than the STS; it should be selling in volume numbers because of the 'downmarket' price. But it is unquestionably a flop as a car, and a failure as an entry-level 'step' to the brand. It's so close to the 3-series in looks & size it's only cannabalizing sales from it, and even that take rate is pathetic.

BTW, the STS, which you always say is a flop, outsells the 6-series.

>>"CTS Wagon and Coupe on the way isn't enough, BMW and Merc have had multiple body

styles on multiple cars for years. Even Infiniti and Lexus have sedan/coupe/convertible on the IS and G37."<<

First off, I had no idea there were converts on the IS & g37- I have seen neither an article, ad, online pic or actual version of these. I had to go look them up to be sure you weren't making them up. Must not be very appealing. Have already seen 4 CTS Sportwagons, tho, and that's only been out a few months vs. a few years.

However, in bringing up lexus, note that out of 9 models, only 1 has more than 1 bodystyle (the aforementioned invisible convert). I KNOW you think lexus is 'doing things right', yet it doesn't fit your definition of that here.

Likewise, infiniti, assumedly another 'doing it right', has 5 models, but only 1 with more than 1 bodystyle. Cadillac already has 2 and the 3rd is coming- they're AHEAD of lexus & infiniti now in your book.

Edited by balthazar
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considering that BMW wants to bring front drive bimmers and 3 cylinders to the US, it appears that they will be attempting to go as much downmarket as anyone.

and yes, the 1 series is a flop. But if the 1 series can be a flop in 20 other countries as well, and it still sells ok in the motherland, then they can justify the extra sales globally by selling a few k here and there.

A3, same deal.

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I am in no way a fan of the 1-series, but it isn't that much of a down market car. The 135i has the same 0-60 time as a Camaro SS, and will probably out handle the Camaro, so the 1-series sticks to BMW performance car image. Even in Europe where they have the 2 liter diesel, at least the 1-series is still rear drive and can offer handling and driving dynamics. But if gas was $8 per gallon here, I am sure Cadillac would be selling 2 liter diesel cars too, everyone would.

BMW can sell a car like the 1-series and not hurt their reputation because they have the 7-series creating prestige. And the 3-series and 5-series have a 20 year reputation as being top of their respective classes. That is what Cadillac is missing, every vehicle with a wreath and crest on it isn't great, and they have no halo car.

The CTS-V has performance, but not the luxury or refinement of the European sport sedans. CTS-V sells for $20k less than any comparable European sedan, there is a reason for that, and it isn't GM trying to be charitable. The new M5 has technology off their Formula 1 car, the CTS-V won't even be close to it.

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Kind of seeing where your going smk as far as Cadillac as a premium brand goes.

Be interesting to see what else Cadillac has up their sleeve.

Chris

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I am just saying, if Cadillac wants to be tier 1, then they have to have a tier 1 product line. Cadillac likes to claim they are on par with the Germans, but the product line doesn't back it up. So either get the product line, or go after Acura and Lincoln and aim to be the best Tier 2 luxury brand.

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Even Infiniti and Lexus have sedan/coupe/convertible on the IS and G37."<<[/i]

First off, I had no idea there were converts on the IS & g37- I have seen neither an article, ad, online pic or actual version of these.

There have been articles in all the new-car mags over the last year, and articles on Autoblog and other sites. They've been well publicized.

Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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In other words. Have surgery to remove cancer of the lungs, brain, stomach, kidneys, and liver. Six months later, beat Lance Armstrong in the Tour de France.

I'm driving around GM's first post-bankruptcy vehicle right now, a 2010 Buick Lacrosse. It was designed during "Old GM" times... when GM still had cancer. The level of fit and finish, the thoughfulness of many of the little things, the performance of the vehicle lead me to believe that if GM was capable of building this vehicle back then, Toyota, BMW, and Nissan need to be very concerned about their future once GM is out of das krankenhaus. Each new GM release needs to be stunning for it's segment... which it one reason I believe the Cruze was delayed. New GM is moving much faster than old GM ever did, but it still does take time to get vehicles designed and there may have to be some transitional vehicles like an AWD EPII based XTS

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I am in no way a fan of the 1-series, but it isn't that much of a down market car. The 135i has the same 0-60 time as a Camaro SS, and will probably out handle the Camaro, so the 1-series sticks to BMW performance car image. Even in Europe where they have the 2 liter diesel, at least the 1-series is still rear drive and can offer handling and driving dynamics. But if gas was $8 per gallon here, I am sure Cadillac would be selling 2 liter diesel cars too, everyone would.

BMW can sell a car like the 1-series and not hurt their reputation because they have the 7-series creating prestige. And the 3-series and 5-series have a 20 year reputation as being top of their respective classes. That is what Cadillac is missing, every vehicle with a wreath and crest on it isn't great, and they have no halo car.

The CTS-V has performance, but not the luxury or refinement of the European sport sedans. CTS-V sells for $20k less than any comparable European sedan, there is a reason for that, and it isn't GM trying to be charitable. The new M5 has technology off their Formula 1 car, the CTS-V won't even be close to it.

does that one series weigh more than a mustang?

you did not acknowledge that indeed BMW is likely bringing a front drive model and a 3 cylinder here wearing BMW badges.

a three cylinder, front drive, ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE! that is almost too much EXCITEMENT!

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does that one series weigh more than a mustang?

you did not acknowledge that indeed BMW is likely bringing a front drive model and a 3 cylinder here wearing BMW badges.

a three cylinder, front drive, ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE! that is almost too much EXCITEMENT!

A 1-series is 3,252-3,384 pounds depending on engine and transmission. So it is lighter than a Mustang. A front drive BMW would have the same level of EXCITEMENT!!! as a Pontiac G5, and thus should never be built. I don't like the 3-cylinder idea either, because their turbo diesel gets 50 mpg, a gas 3-cylinder turbo will likely have no advantage in power or fuel economy. BMW has yet to add hybrid tech to their 4 or 6 cylinder engines, they should start there to boost efficiency.

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no bimmer here should be fwd. none of the US bimmers should have anything less than a turbo 4.

i thought i saw a test that had a 1 series at 3600+ pounds. I will need to look into that. 2011 mustang v6 is under 3500 pounds and over 300 hp.

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