Wings4Life(BANNED)

Is Ford Motor Company Falling a Step Behind Rival General Motors?

108 posts in this topic

Wings4Life(BANNED)    1,000,000

 

Link to Fool Column

 

There are a lot of developments that suggest Ford Motor Company (NYSE:F) has had the drop on rival General Motors (NYSE:GM) for years. You can start with the fact that Ford survived the Great Recession on its own dime. You can note that Ford Credit is generating the kind of business GM Financial hopes to achieve years down the road. You can definitely point out that Ford reinstated its dividend roughly two years before its rival did.

Ford has definitely beaten GM to the punch many times in recent years, but here are two product decisions that show Ford is lagging behind.

Where art thou, subcompact crossover?

Ford management has mentioned many times that it believes........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wings4Life(BANNED)    1,000,000

There is no doubt Ford is behind in the compact truck and CUV segment sales here in NA, although certainly not a problem for them elsewhere in the world.  But I think that the small about of sales it is losing today will play into their hand well in the future.  At least for the "Return of the Ranger" marketing blitz that will surely ensue, once they announce / reveal it.  Absence does make the heart grow fonder, after all.  They were also wise to sit back and watch how GM did with the small twins.  And lets face it, it is pretty easy to improve on a product you have in front of you, versus nothing. For years Ford employees would ask management about a Ranger, and they were always snubbed with remarks like "no plans for it."  I even scratched my head at relative costs, room, power, features, capability, etc.  And yeah, some just want a more manageable size.  I think many are really curious to see what Ford does. It will surely be a autoshow circuit darling for the media and fans.  I recall looking over the all new GM twins, top to bottom, when they arrived at the Detroit show.  While doing so, I was kind of surprised at how little interest there was for them.  Certainly no lines to get in.  Perhaps there were other show stealers.  So Ford has an opportunity here in NA. i hope they don't blow it.

 

As for the sub compact CUV segment, I don't know what to think still. I have been seeing them all around Dearborn campus for years, assuming they would show up at any time.  But not the case.  My guess, they are awaiting to align to updated/new platforms.  Does that cost them?  I don't nearly as much as the small truck sales lost, and although there are sales left on the table, their total mix between Escape, Edge and perhaps Bronco soon, should carry them through.  Total CUV/SUV sales are certainly no slouch.  

 

So in total, I disagree with article.  Both brands have their highs and lows.  But where I think Ford has a small lead, is in the performance brand.  And that has to be accounted for.  And in terms of Electrification, GM certainly has all the news at the moment, but Ford is hot and heavy into it and I think they are ready to make some future plan announcements.  It's almost that season anyway.  

And I think Autonomy is too hard to predict.  Everyone is trying to steal headlines at the moment, and many have big plans, but claiming any kind of lead at the moment means little.

 

Edited by Wings4Life
  • Upvote 1
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dfelt    1,773

Ford is surviving, but not winning. By Ford NOT taking the chance to clean the sheet and instead mortgaging everything, they are now in the position that under a world depression it could truly hurt them badly.

Yes they reinstated dividends, Yes they did not take any loans from the GOV.

They failed to dump the burden of their heavily underfunded Union retirement pension funds. They also failed to dump old assets that are dragging them down. 

Ford is surviving, but while they have profits now, they also have far bigger debt payments that are due and additional loan costs that have to be addressed in the coming future.

Ford can survive, but what that cost will be is unknown and can they truly get everything brought up to a full competitive nature is unknown.

Ford is also heavily behind in the EV arena which could also hurt them.

Personally Ford should have taken the option to dump the Union Pension and restructure even if it meant partial loans from the GOV.

There is much I like about Ford, but there is equally much to be concerned about and one of them is the slow roll out of new products that they have been slowly working on due to the debt load that Ford carries.

I truly hope at this point that FORD and GM come out on top in what I believe will be a consolidation of the auto industry over the next 5 years.

Can Ford bring up the CUV / Mid size truck market while keeping their Trucks / SUV's current? That is the question to be pondered.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wings4Life(BANNED)    1,000,000

Surviving huh. Ok.

 

And yes, there is plenty of benefits to be said for filing chapter 11, and sticking it to tax payers, not to mention all the families that lost plenty.  But hey, GM debt is less.  

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
balthazar    1,875

This 'step behind / step ahead' slant is a lot of false worry. At well over 100 years history on both companies, there will always be market/ product shifts and ebbs & flows.

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dfelt    1,773
1 hour ago, Wings4Life said:

Surviving huh. Ok.

 

And yes, there is plenty of benefits to be said for filing chapter 11, and sticking it to tax payers, not to mention all the families that lost plenty.  But hey, GM debt is less.  

What families lost plenty? GM repaid ahead of schedule the full loans from the Gov, The GOV got shares in the new GM. The Political idiots in DC are the ones who sold off sooner rather than later waiting to redeem equal or gain on the stock.

The workers got paid and their pension is solid and better now than it was under the old system. The % of ownership in GM has returned big gains into the pension fund.

Yes some of the 3rd party companies had to write off losses, but not a single a single company had to close and they are all stronger now than they were then. All companies under the bankruptcy ended up with a % of the amount owed rather than nothing.

This was a far better solution than what some especially on the ultra conservative side was wanting in just letting the US auto industry die.

The death of GM and Chrysler would have devastated not just the worker families but the 3rd party companies and you would have seen massive financial destruction at the gain of a very small few. The 1% crowd.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wings4Life(BANNED)    1,000,000
1 hour ago, balthazar said:

This 'step behind / step ahead' slant is a lot of false worry. At well over 100 years history on both companies, there will always be market/ product shifts and ebbs & flows.

This 100%

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wings4Life(BANNED)    1,000,000
1 hour ago, dfelt said:

What families lost plenty? GM repaid ahead of schedule the full loans from the Gov, The GOV got shares in the new GM. The Political idiots in DC are the ones who sold off sooner rather than later waiting to redeem equal or gain on the stock.

The workers got paid and their pension is solid and better now than it was under the old system. The % of ownership in GM has returned big gains into the pension fund.

Yes some of the 3rd party companies had to write off losses, but not a single a single company had to close and they are all stronger now than they were then. All companies under the bankruptcy ended up with a % of the amount owed rather than nothing.

This was a far better solution than what some especially on the ultra conservative side was wanting in just letting the US auto industry die.

The death of GM and Chrysler would have devastated not just the worker families but the 3rd party companies and you would have seen massive financial destruction at the gain of a very small few. The 1% crowd.

When the stock tanked, thousands of GM families who had their investments and 401K heavy into the stock, lost big time.  Sorry, tens of thousands of GM employees.

And yes, the world is better with GM and Chrysler, no doubt.

But had they an option, I would have much rather seen them take the road Ford took, which includes taking longer to pay back the debt.  And so would all those who lost plenty. So when you criticize them for that, keep all that in mind.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
El Kabong    273

Ford is currently experiencing severe YOY sales declines relative to both GM and FCA. 

Ford is currently showing much poorer financial results than GM. 

And they appear to insist on doing shortcuts with product planning and engineering, as we once again see here:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/videos/a31086/here-are-all-the-differences-between-the-us-and-european-mustang/

So... yes. The article definitely has merit. 

Anywell: onward!

Ford definitely needs to address the large SUV segment if it wants to get back into the financial game. Economics of scale with the Expedition would go a long way, if they retain as much commality with the F-series as possible. IRS is probably an expense they cannot afford anymore. 

Also, overhaul all the sedans. 

Not easy, but given time, doable. 

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ccap41    1,161
On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 1:07 PM, Wings4Life said:

Surviving huh. Ok.

 

And yes, there is plenty of benefits to be said for filing chapter 11, and sticking it to tax payers, not to mention all the families that lost plenty.  But hey, GM debt is less.  

It's easy to have less debt when you get the tax payers to clean the sheet for ya.

On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 5:44 PM, El Kabong said:

And they appear to insist on doing shortcuts with product planning and engineering, as we once again see here:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/videos/a31086/here-are-all-the-differences-between-the-us-and-european-mustang/

What shortcut are you talking about?

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
El Kabong    273

The power descrepancy between LHD and RHD models. Some would argue that it was all on paper. I do not, and I'm pretty sure R&T would not either. 

In any event, it would appear that whatever your opinions of all that, the profit margins that it generates were not enough to keep the Flat Rock plant from going down, uh, flat:

http://www.motortrend.com/news/2049252/

If GM only needed to make Camaro incentives larger than Mustang's for one month for this to happen, the Mustang's profit status has been iffy for quite some time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ccap41    1,161

It isn't a short cut when the are rated differently. If they rated them the same and weren't the same..that's a different story and it would leave them subject to some lawsuits.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
El Kabong    273

The British rating system isn't so far removed that Top Gear would call it 412hp. There's a lot more going on there to get those numbers than that.  

In the larger picture, that doesn't really change anything in regards to the main point of this article.  One month of GM turning up tre heat on the Mustang is all it took for Ford to idle Flat Rock.  Ford appears to have went all-in on numbers for PR purposes while overlooking the qualities that make a good product. And the beancounter's bluff was called. 

Edited by El Kabong

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ccap41    1,161

Go on.. explain every factual thing you have to say about what is "actually" going on. Don't forget to site your sources.

The link was very clear that with the right hand drive they had to reroute the exhaust which caused some restriction therefore reduced flow. You don't need much of a pinch to reduce power by that much.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wings4Life(BANNED)    1,000,000
37 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Go on.. explain every factual thing you have to say about what is "actually" going on. Don't forget to site your sources.

The link was very clear that with the right hand drive they had to reroute the exhaust which caused some restriction therefore reduced flow. You don't need much of a pinch to reduce power by that much.

Indeed. This 100%.

But remember, VD has been busy in every site he belongs too, trolling for any response he can get on that subject.

  • Upvote 2
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FordCosworth    128
18 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Go on.. explain every factual thing you have to say about what is "actually" going on. Don't forget to site your sources.

The link was very clear that with the right hand drive they had to reroute the exhaust which caused some restriction therefore reduced flow. You don't need much of a pinch to reduce power by that much.

:lol:

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FordCosworth    128
19 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Go on.. explain every factual thing you have to say about what is "actually" going on. Don't forget to site your sources.

The link was very clear that with the right hand drive they had to reroute the exhaust which caused some restriction therefore reduced flow. You don't need much of a pinch to reduce power by that much.

I think the silence is your answer...

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
El Kabong    273
On 2016-10-11 at 3:03 PM, Wings4Life said:

Indeed. This 100%.

But remember, VD has been busy in every site he belongs too, trolling for any response he can get on that subject.

Quoting facts isn't trolling. But nice to see that you can't even respond to facts with anything but mental diarrhea. 

Sad sad sad that you can't post intelligently

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
El Kabong    273
On 2016-10-11 at 2:24 PM, ccap41 said:

Go on.. explain every factual thing you have to say about what is "actually" going on. Don't forget to site your sources.

The link was very clear that with the right hand drive they had to reroute the exhaust which caused some restriction therefore reduced flow. You don't need much of a pinch to reduce power by that much.

So... that justifies losing 25hp?

okie dokie

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ccap41    1,161
2 hours ago, El Kabong said:

So... that justifies losing 25hp?

okie dokie

Yeah, the same way just getting a high flow mid pipe and a cat back yields you about 10-20hp. 

Have anything factual to back up that claim of what is "actually" going on? 

  • Upvote 2
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
El Kabong    273

So anyways, I've just been on C/D's website, and it turns out the half-assed thinking thing has struck again-this time with a Lincoln's tires:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-lincoln-mkz-30t-awd-test-review

Memo to Ford: get the foundations right already.  GM is just laying down the law all over the place  

 

...meanwhile, GM just took an automatic ZL1 onto the Ring, left it in Drive, and beat a Shelby GT350R. 

Laying. Down. The. Law. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ccap41    1,161

"Put Pilot Super Sports on Everything. It's the greatest tire ever."

*Puts Pilot Super Sports on car.*

"Well it doesn't work on everything.. Think of something different."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
El Kabong    273

You cannot put Clark Kent's heart in Clark Griswold's body.  You need to tune the chassis as well as put on gumball tires.  

Its even worse than that-C/D discovered that the tires were ringers, which is a moldy old trick Lincoln has been called out on before. It is interesting that as time goes on their reviews sound increasingly like me. A coincidence-but hardly a surprising one. 

Because Ford keeps cheaping out. And GM wised up to that long ago. 

Edited by El Kabong

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ccap41    1,161

You're assuming they're ringers. 

Continue to read the article and it states that they do offer summer tires in that same size they just don't say what the tire is. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FordCosworth    128
10 hours ago, ccap41 said:

You're assuming they're ringers. 

Continue to read the article and it states that they do offer summer tires in that same size they just don't say what the tire is. 

Amen.

Reading that had me searching for where C/D " discovered " these " ringer rubbers ".  

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your content will need to be approved by a moderator

Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoticons maximum are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.